[quote author=frosbel][/quote]Evrybody is entitled to his opinion and belief system. That does not change anythin that had been eternally orderd to run a specific way.

I dnt tink i need to quote scriptures again cos there are so much references that attest to life after death, just dat u hav a programmed belief system that u tentativly hold unto. Thats ok.

Scripture apart, even our traditional african religion attest to life after death. Virtually all religions in world attest to dat. Tho' thats not the basis for validity.

But do me a favour: pick all the verses or reference quoted by 'image123' and refute all of dem, then i can take u serios. Once u can break down those references one by one and tell me ur personal understandin den i will be ok.

^
you're asking for the impossible oh. frosb don't discuss, he'd rather quote the whole post add some glib wish like "fail" or "debunked".

THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

1020 The Christian who unites his own death to that of Jesus views it as a step towards him and an entrance into everlasting life. When the Church for the last time speaks Christ's words of pardon and absolution over the dying Christian, seals him for the last time with a strengthening anointing, and gives him Christ in viaticum as nourishment for the journey, she speaks with gentle assurance:

Go forth, Christian soul, from this world
in the name of God the almighty Father,
who created you,
in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God,
who suffered for you,
in the name of the Holy Spirit,
who was poured out upon you.
Go forth, faithful Christian!
May you live in peace this day,
may your home be with God in Zion,
with Mary, the virgin Mother of God,
with Joseph, and all the angels and saints. . . .

May you return to [your Creator]
who formed you from the dust of the earth.
May holy Mary, the angels, and all the saints
come to meet you as you go forth from this life. . . .
May you see your Redeemer face to face. 591

I. THE PARTICULAR JUDGMENT

1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul--a destiny which can be different for some and for others.593

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.596

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.597
II. HEAVEN

1023 Those who die in God's grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ. They are like God for ever, for they "see him as he is," face to face:598

By virtue of our apostolic authority, we define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints . . . and other faithful who died after receiving Christ's holy Baptism (provided they were not in need of purification when they died, . . . or, if they then did need or will need some purification, when they have been purified after death, . . .) already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment - and this since the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into heaven - have been, are and will be in heaven, in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels. Since the Passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and do see the divine essence with an intuitive vision, and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature.599
1024 This perfect life with the Most Holy Trinity - this communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed - is called "heaven." Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness.

1025 To live in heaven is "to be with Christ." The elect live "in Christ,"600 but they retain, or rather find, their true identity, their own name.601

For life is to be with Christ; where Christ is, there is life, there is the kingdom.602
1026 By his death and Resurrection, Jesus Christ has "opened" heaven to us. The life of the blessed consists in the full and perfect possession of the fruits of the redemption accomplished by Christ. He makes partners in his heavenly glorification those who have believed in him and remained faithful to his will. Heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ.

1027 This mystery of blessed communion with God and all who are in Christ is beyond all understanding and description. Scripture speaks of it in images: life, light, peace, wedding feast, wine of the kingdom, the Father's house, the heavenly Jerusalem, paradise: "no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him."603

1028 Because of his transcendence, God cannot be seen as he is, unless he himself opens up his mystery to man's immediate contemplation and gives him the capacity for it. The Church calls this contemplation of God in his heavenly glory "the beatific vision":

How great will your glory and happiness be, to be allowed to see God, to be honored with sharing the joy of salvation and eternal light with Christ your Lord and God, . . . to delight in the joy of immortality in the Kingdom of heaven with the righteous and God's friends.604
1029 In the glory of heaven the blessed continue joyfully to fulfill God's will in relation to other men and to all creation. Already they reign with Christ; with him "they shall reign for ever and ever."605

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611
IV. HELL

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."619
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":621

Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.622
V. THE LAST JUDGMENT

1038 The resurrection of all the dead, "of both the just and the unjust,"623 will precede the Last Judgment. This will be "the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man's] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."624 Then Christ will come "in his glory, and all the angels with him. . . . Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. . . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."625

1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man's relationship with God will be laid bare.626 The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:

All that the wicked do is recorded, and they do not know. When "our God comes, he does not keep silence.". . . he will turn towards those at his left hand: . . . "I placed my poor little ones on earth for you. I as their head was seated in heaven at the right hand of my Father - but on earth my members were suffering, my members on earth were in need. If you gave anything to my members, what you gave would reach their Head. Would that you had known that my little ones were in need when I placed them on earth for you and appointed them your stewards to bring your good works into my treasury. But you have placed nothing in their hands; therefore you have found nothing in my presence."627
1040 The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvelous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God's justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God's love is stronger than death.628

1041 The message of the Last Judgment calls men to conversion while God is still giving them "the acceptable time, . . . the day of salvation."629 It inspires a holy fear of God and commits them to the justice of the Kingdom of God. It proclaims the "blessed hope" of the Lord's return, when he will come "to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed."630

*VI. THE HOPE OF THE NEW HEAVEN AND THE NEW EARTH

1042 At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. After the universal judgment, the righteous will reign for ever with Christ, glorified in body and soul. The universe itself will be renewed:

The Church . . . will receive her perfection only in the glory of heaven, when will come the time of the renewal of all things. At that time, together with the human race, the universe itself, which is so closely related to man and which attains its destiny through him, will be perfectly re-established in Christ.631
1043 Sacred Scripture calls this mysterious renewal, which will transform humanity and the world, "new heavens and a new earth."632 It will be the definitive realization of God's plan to bring under a single head "all things in [Christ], things in heaven and things on earth."633

1044 In this new universe, the heavenly Jerusalem, God will have his dwelling among men.634 "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away."635

1045 For man, this consummation will be the final realization of the unity of the human race, which God willed from creation and of which the pilgrim Church has been "in the nature of sacrament."636 Those who are united with Christ will form the community of the redeemed, "the holy city" of God, "the Bride, the wife of the Lamb."637 She will not be wounded any longer by sin, stains, self-love, that destroy or wound the earthly community.638 The beatific vision, in which God opens himself in an inexhaustible way to the elect, will be the ever-flowing well-spring of happiness, peace, and mutual communion.

1046 For the cosmos, Revelation affirms the profound common destiny of the material world and man:

For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God . . . in hope because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay. . . . We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.639
1047 The visible universe, then, is itself destined to be transformed, "so that the world itself, restored to its original state, facing no further obstacles, should be at the service of the just," sharing their glorification in the risen Jesus Christ.640

1048 "We know neither the moment of the consummation of the earth and of man, nor the way in which the universe will be transformed. The form of this world, distorted by sin, is passing away, and we are taught that God is preparing a new dwelling and a new earth in which righteousness dwells, in which happiness will fill and surpass all the desires of peace arising in the hearts of men."641

1049 "Far from diminishing our concern to develop this earth, the expectancy of a new earth should spur us on, for it is here that the body of a new human family grows, foreshadowing in some way the age which is to come. That is why, although we must be careful to distinguish earthly progress clearly from the increase of the kingdom of Christ, such progress is of vital concern to the kingdom of God, insofar as it can contribute to the better ordering of human society."642

1050 "When we have spread on earth the fruits of our nature and our enterprise . . . according to the command of the Lord and in his Spirit, we will find them once again, cleansed this time from the stain of sin, illuminated and transfigured, when Christ presents to his Father an eternal and universal kingdom."643 God will then be "all in all" in eternal life:644

True and subsistent life consists in this: the Father, through the Son and in the Holy Spirit, pouring out his heavenly gifts on all things without exception. Thanks to his mercy, we too, men that we are, have received the inalienable promise of eternal life.645

IN BRIEF

1051 Every man receives his eternal recompense in his immortal soul from the moment of his death in a particular judgment by Christ, the judge of the living and the dead.

1052 "We believe that the souls of all who die in Christ's grace . . . are the People of God beyond death. On the day of resurrection, death will be definitively conquered, when these souls will be reunited with their bodies" (Paul VI, CPG § 28).

1053 "We believe that the multitude of those gathered around Jesus and Mary in Paradise forms the Church of heaven, where in eternal blessedness they see God as he is and where they are also, to various degrees, associated with the holy angels in the divine governance exercised by Christ in glory, by interceding for us and helping our weakness by their fraternal concern" (Paul VI, CPG § 29).

1054 Those who die in God's grace and friendship imperfectly purified, although they are assured of their eternal salvation, undergo a purification after death, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of God.

1055 By virtue of the "communion of saints," the Church commends the dead to God's mercy and offers her prayers, especially the holy sacrifice of the Eucharist, on their behalf.

1056 Following the example of Christ, the Church warns the faithful of the "sad and lamentable reality of eternal death" (GCD 69), also called "hell."

1057 Hell's principal punishment consists of eternal separation from God in whom alone man can have the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost: "Lord, let me never be parted from you." If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God "desires all men to be saved" (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him "all things are possible" (Mt 19:26).

1059 "The holy Roman Church firmly believes and confesses that on the Day of Judgment all men will appear in their own bodies before Christ's tribunal to render an account of their own deeds" (Council of Lyons II [1274]:DS 859; cf. DS 1549).

1060 At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. Then the just will reign with Christ for ever, glorified in body and soul, and the material universe itself will be transformed. God will then be "all in all" (1 Cor 15:28), in eternal life.


591 OCF, Prayer of Commendation.
592 Cf. 2 Tim 1:9-10.
593 Cf. Lk 16:22; 23:43; Mt 16:26; 2 Cor 5:8; Phil 1:23; Heb 9:27; 12:23.
594 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274):DS 857-858; Council of Florence (1439):DS 1304- 1306; Council of Trent (1563):DS 1820.
595 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336):DS 1000-1001; John XXII, Ne super his (1334):DS 990.
596 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336):DS 1002.
597 St. John of the Cross, Dichos 64.
598 1 Jn 3:2; cf. 1 Cor 13:12; Rev 22:4.
599 Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336):DS 1000; cf. LG 49.
600 Phil 1:23; cf. Jn 14:3; 1 Thess 4:17.
601 Cf. Rev 2:17.
602 St. Ambrose, In Luc.,10,121:PL 15 1834A.
603 1 Cor 2:9.
604 St. Cyprian, Ep. 58,10,1:CSEL 3/2,665.
605 Rev 22:5; cf. Mt 25:21,23.
606 Cf. Council of Florence (1439):DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563):DS 1820; (1547):1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336):DS 1000.
607 Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
608 St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4,39:PL 77,396; cf. Mt 12:31.
609 2 Macc 12:46.
610 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274):DS 856.
611 St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41,5:PG 61,361; cf. Job 1:5.
612 1 Jn 3:14-15.
613 Cf. Mt 25:31-46.
614 Cf. Mt 5:22,29; 10:28; 13:42,50; Mk 9:43-48.
615 Mt 13:41-42.
616 Mt 25:41.
617 Cf. DS 76; 409; 411; 801; 858; 1002; 1351; 1575; Paul VI, CPG § 12.
618 Mt 7:13-14.
619 LG 48 § 3; Mt 22:13; cf. Heb 9:27; Mt 25:13,26,30,31-46.
620 Cf. Council of Orange II (529):DS 397; Council of Trent (1547):1567.
621 2 Pet 3:9.
622 Roman Missal, EP I (Roman Canon) 88.
623 Acts 24:15.
624 Jn 5:28-29.
625 Mt 25:31,32,46.
626 Cf. Jn 12:49.
627 St. Augustine, Sermo 18, 4:PL 38,130-131; cf. Ps 50:3.
628 Cf. Song 8:6.
629 2 Cor 6:2.
630 Titus 2:13; 2 Thess 1:10.
631 LG 48; Cf. Acts 3:21; Eph 1:10; Col 1:20; 2 Pet 3:10-13.
632 2 Pet 3:13; Cf. Rev 21:1.
633 Eph 1:10.
634 Cf. Rev 21:5.
635 Rev 21:4.
636 Cf. LG 1.
637 Rev 21:2,9.
638 Cf. Rev 21:27.
639 Rom 8:19-23.
640 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 5,32,1:PG 7/2,210.
641 GS 39 § 1.
642 GS 39 § 2.
643 GS 39 § 3.
644 1 Cor 5:28.
645 St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catech. illum. 18,29:PG 33,1049.
646 Cf. Rev 22:21.
647 Isa 65:16.
648 Cf. Mt 6:2,5,16; Jn 5:19.
649 St. Augustine, Sermo 58,11,13:PL 38,399.
650 Rev 3:14.
651 2 Cor 1:20.

^^^^ um.......erm....... My guy, some of us are using mobile devices you know, that post is too damn long(and irrelevant).

@italo, I would love to discuss this part of the cathechism with you. It will not be now though. I hope you can countenance my interest. First off, I promise you I won't be attacking it, I will only be studying and evaluating it against the Scriptures using reason. Are you game, sir?

Ihedinobi: @italo, I would love to discuss this part of the cathechism with you. It will not be now though. I hope you can countenance my interest. First off, I promise you I won't be attacking it, I will only be studying and evaluating it against the Scriptures using reason. Are you game, sir?

It would be a pleasure to discuss with you in a reasonable, objective, pleasant and honest manner.

Ihedinobi: @italo, I would love to discuss this part of the cathechism with you. It will not be now though. I hope you can countenance my interest. First off, I promise you I won't be attacking it, I will only be studying and evaluating it against the Scriptures using reason. Are you game, sir?

It would be a pleasure to discuss with you in a reasonable, objective, pleasant and honest manner.

Todaynatoday: ^^^^ um.......erm....... My guy, some of us are using mobile devices you know, that post is too damn long(and irrelevant).

Sorry about the length. I just couldn't find a way to shorten it.

...And it might be irrelevant to you...but maybe not to someone else, like Ihedinobi.

I leave the Catholics to discuss their false teachings on the afterlife.

frosbel: I leave the Catholics to discuss their false teachings on the afterlife.

Mr Frosbel, no nobody cares y u left catholic church. Evry1 in a civilized world is protcted by UN chatter on freedom of association as far as it does not poss any security risk. Fyi i am not catholic and never will be.

As a vast and learned fellow, which i think you r, especially with issue dat has to do with xtainity, can u please take ur time to analyse the verses quoted by 'image123' with the aim of refuttin life after death. Not pickin up a single verse, especially in eclesiates (without readin thru the opinion of the writer) to nullified a simple bible truth.

Since we r all bible belivers, Xtains and followers of christ, wat is christ's view on the after-life? If Jesus is the connerstone of xtainity den his decision or dat of the apostles suffice in givin us ample idea of wat happens when we die.

I need ur own point of view pls and not a copy and paste response.

true2god: Mr Frosbel, no nobody cares y u left catholic church. Evry1 in a civilized one is protcted by UN chatter on freedom of association as far as it does not poss any security risk. Fyi i am not catholic and never will be.

As a vast and learned fellow, which i think you r, especially with issue dat has to do with xtainity, can u please take ur time to analyse the verses quoted by 'image123' with the aim of refuttin life after death. Not pickin up a single verse, especially in eclesiates (without readin thru the opinion of the writer) to nullified a simple bible truth.

Since we r all bible belivers, Xtains and followers of christ, wat is christ's view on the after-life? If Jesus is the connerstone of xtainity den his decision or dat of the apostles suffice in givin us ample idea of wat happens when we die.

I need ur own point of view pls and not a copy and paste response.

If you go back a few pages, you will find my stance on this issue.

Permit me not to repeat myself.

Image123: ^
you're asking for the impossible oh. frosb don't discuss, he'd rather quote the whole post add some glib wish like "fail" or "debunked".

I think you mean Logicboy ,

frosbel:

I think you mean Logicboy ,

I am quite popular these days

Logicboy03:
I am quite popular these days

Lol, there is a difference between popular and notorious

Mr_Anony:
Lol, there is a difference between popular and notorious

To an atheist on a christian/muslim dominated forum, there is no difference

Logicboy03:


To an atheist on a christian/muslim dominated forum, there is no difference

Huh!

Anony?

Image123: Anony?

My brother sorry for the delay, I know I promised for last weekend, unfortunately I am not prepared enough yet. Funny though is that the more I study the bible, the more I tend to agree with you.

I was formerly of the opinion that after death is a completely unconscious state (sleep) until resurrection to glory or judgement but right now, with the studying I have done and I am still doing, I can no longer hold on to that position. I am now quite convinced that after death is a holding place (different places for the righteous and the wicked) after which is resurrection to either glory or damnation.

I am in the process of preparing a long sermon detailed post on why I am convinced that this is so. The post however will take some time in coming I am afraid.
I really don't want to be rash and be too quick to declare something that isn't true. Please bear with me.

Mr_Anony:
My brother sorry for the delay, I know I promised for last weekend, unfortunately I am not prepared enough yet. Funny though is that the more I study the bible, the more I tend to agree with you.

I was formerly of the opinion that after death is a completely unconscious state (sleep) until resurrection to glory or judgement but right now, with the studying I have done and I am still doing, I can no longer hold on to that position. I am now quite convinced that after death is a holding place (different places for the righteous and the wicked) after which is resurrection to either glory or damnation.

I am in the process of preparing a long sermon detailed post on why I am convinced that this is so. The post however will take some time in coming I am afraid.
I really don't want to be rash and be too quick to declare something that isn't true. Please bear with me.

all this is from an infelible "God"(Anony)

Are you a presumptiouse person in real life?

Is it now that you have come to know the truth?

What have you been teaching on NL and outside all this while? False hood?
*sigh*

(programming)

okay oh, Mr_Anony, take the time sir.

Mr_Anony:
My brother sorry for the delay, I know I promised for last weekend, unfortunately I am not prepared enough yet. Funny though is that the more I study the bible, the more I tend to agree with you.

I was formerly of the opinion that after death is a completely unconscious state (sleep) until resurrection to glory or judgement but right now, with the studying I have done and I am still doing, I can no longer hold on to that position. I am now quite convinced that after death is a holding place (different places for the righteous and the wicked) after which is resurrection to either glory or damnation.

I am in the process of preparing a long sermon detailed post on why I am convinced that this is so. The post however will take some time in coming I am afraid.
I really don't want to be rash and be too quick to declare something that isn't true. Please bear with me.

So your doctrine has changed, abi?

Yesterday, it was 'that'

Today, it is 'this'

Tomorrow, who knows what it might be 'after more study'

As Truthislight said, it means you have been teaching falsehood. How do you feel about that? That even people who might have known the true doctrine of Christ, you have been trying to convert them (maybe even succeeded with some) to false doctrine.

This, my brother, is the danger in private interpretation of scripture. No matter how much you study, you are still liable to make mistakes.

Why don't you turn to the infallible Church and read and digest that piece I posted from the Catechism of The Catholic Church. Why don't you save yourself from all this anarchy and confusion? Why hinge your eternal destiny on uncertainty? I know that you are a reasonable man (at least to a large extent), that's why you can even admit to your error here in public. People like Frosbel, Ijawkid etc will rather cook up rubbish to try to justify an obviously errorneous position. You acceded to the infallibility of the Catholic Church when they said Mark wrote Mark, Luke wrote Luke and they were inspired by the Holy Spirit. There's nothing in those books that tell of the origin or authorship or inspiration behind those books. You acceded to the infallibility of the Church when it said 'The Acts of Peter' 'The Gospel of Barnabas' etc were not inspired but 'Matthew' 'Ephesians' etc were inpired. Why don't you then accept when it gives you the interpretation of what is written therein? Can a fallible Church write and compile an infallible book?

But then, I'm probably wasting my time.

Mr_Anony:
My brother sorry for the delay, I know I promised for last weekend, unfortunately I am not prepared enough yet. Funny though is that the more I study the bible, the more I tend to agree with you.

I was formerly of the opinion that after death is a completely unconscious state (sleep) until resurrection to glory or judgement but right now, with the studying I have done and I am still doing, I can no longer hold on to that position. I am now quite convinced that after death is a holding place (different places for the righteous and the wicked) after which is resurrection to either glory or damnation.

I am in the process of preparing a long sermon detailed post on why I am convinced that this is so. The post however will take some time in coming I am afraid.
I really don't want to be rash and be too quick to declare something that isn't true. Please bear with me.

I knew you'd come back even if at a much later date than you'd initially planned, twin bro

Something I've learned though: until I've ventured what I hold, I will not come into more. Until I'm prepared to risk being wrong, I will not learn right. But more importantly, no Christian can come into perfect understanding or appreciation of Christ in any matter wholly by himself. The fullness is in the Church as a whole. And once there are at least two believers together, the fullness of Christ, the full authority of the Church is immediately present with them. It is together that we apprehend the fullness of Christ in any matter.

Our walk with Christ is from grace to grace, from glory to glory, always toward greater apprehension of Jesus Christ. It is acceptable that our understanding be constantly changed. "When I was a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish things behind me." We will continue to increase in understanding until we see Him face to face. The safeguard for false doctrine is how the doctrine holds Christ and the willingness of its holder to submit it to examination by other believers.

So, my very much beloved brother, while it is good to avoid being rash, never be so afraid of being found wrong that you're never found at all.

Ihedinobi:

I knew you'd come back even if at a much later date than you'd initially planned, twin bro

Something I've learned though: until I've ventured what I hold, I will not come into more. Until I'm prepared to risk being wrong, I will not learn right. But more importantly, no Christian can come into perfect understanding or appreciation of Christ in any matter wholly by himself. The fullness is in the Church as a whole. And once there are at least two believers together, the fullness of Christ, the full authority of the Church is immediately present with them. It is together that we apprehend the fullness of Christ in any matter.

Our walk with Christ is from grace to grace, from glory to glory, always toward greater apprehension of Jesus Christ. It is acceptable that our understanding be constantly changed. "When I was a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish things behind me." We will continue to increase in understanding until we see Him face to face. The safeguard for false doctrine is how the doctrine holds Christ and the willingness of its holder to submit it to examination by other believers.

So, my very much beloved brother, while it is good to avoid being rash, never be so afraid of being found wrong that you're never found at all.

True talk my brother, we will break bread

truthislight:

all this is from an infelible "God"(Anony)

Are you a presumptiouse person in real life?

Is it now that you have come to know the truth?

What have you been teaching on NL and outside all this while? False hood?
*sigh*

(programming)

Lol, never knew I was infallible "god" to you. Better go and repent from your idolatry

italo:

So your doctrine has changed, abi?

Yesterday, it was 'that'

Today, it is 'this'

Tomorrow, who knows what it might be 'after more study'

As Truthislight said, it means you have been teaching falsehood. How do you feel about that? That even people who might have known the true doctrine of Christ, you have been trying to convert them (maybe even succeeded with some) to false doctrine.

This, my brother, is the danger in private interpretation of scripture. No matter how much you study, you are still liable to make mistakes.

Why don't you turn to the infallible Church and read and digest that piece I posted from the Catechism of The Catholic Church. Why don't you save yourself from all this anarchy and confusion? Why hinge your eternal destiny on uncertainty? I know that you are a reasonable man (at least to a large extent), that's why you can even admit to your error here in public. People like Frosbel, Ijawkid etc will rather cook up rubbish to try to justify an obviously errorneous position. You acceded to the infallibility of the Catholic Church when they said Mark wrote Mark, Luke wrote Luke and they were inspired by the Holy Spirit. There's nothing in those books that tell of the origin or authorship or inspiration behind those books. You acceded to the infallibility of the Church when it said 'The Acts of Peter' 'The Gospel of Barnabas' etc were not inspired but 'Matthew' 'Ephesians' etc were inpired. Why don't you then accept when it gives you the interpretation of what is written therein? Can a fallible Church write and compile an infallible book?

But then, I'm probably wasting my time.

And what are you talking about exactly? Perhaps you guys seem to hold me in much higher regard than I probably deserve.

I will always maintain that the bible has the final say for me, and where I find myself in error, I am not ashamed to correct myself as many times as necessary until I am in perfect alliance with scripture and the leading of the Holy Ghost.

I am not and have never claimed to be your teacher. The reason I post on NL is so that together we can study scripture and not so that we can flex and compare our puny little theology muscles

I submit myself totally to God's word and I will advice you to do the same.

I'm tempted to reply italo and the other one, until i remember that they are not in this discussion, bunch of perveets.

Ihedinobi: But more importantly, no Christian can come into perfect understanding or appreciation of Christ in any matter wholly by himself. The fullness is in the Church as a whole.

The fullness is in The Catholic Church.

Ihedinobi: And once there are at least two believers together, the fullness of Christ, the full authority of the Church is immediately present with them. It is together that we apprehend the fullness of Christ in any matter.

That would mean that every single one of the 40,000 "churches" in this world are teaching the fullness of truth, since they all have "at least two believers together". Of course this is totally WRONG, as we know they teach contradictory doctrines...and Christ cannot contradict himself.

Ihedinobi: Our walk with Christ is from grace to grace, from glory to glory, always toward greater apprehension of Jesus Christ.

The walk can actually lead towards less or even a wrong comprehension of Jesus. Depends on which way you are working.

Ihedinobi: It is acceptable that our understanding be constantly changed. "When I was a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish things behind me." We will continue to increase in understanding until we see Him face to face.

It is acceptable that our understanding be constantly improved but it is not acceptable that our understanding be changing haphazardly between contrasting positions without being even sure of the former or latter position.

Ihedinobi: The safeguard for false doctrine is how the doctrine holds Christ and the willingness of its holder to submit it to examination by other believers.

Perhaps, you'll be willing to submit your doctrine for examination.

Mr_Anony:
And what are you talking about exactly? Perhaps you guys seem to hold me in much higher regard than I probably deserve.

Perhaps.

Mr_Anony: I will always maintain that the bible has the final say for me, and where I find myself in error, I am not ashamed to correct myself as many times as necessary until I am in perfect alliance with scripture and the leading of the Holy Ghost.

Is that what the early Christians did? Did they take the Bible as the final authority or the Church? Did each person interprete the Bible on his own and come to his own conclusion of what the Bible says or did they let the Church teach them? How can you know if you are in error or not since you are fallible? Yesterday, you thought you were not in error on the topic of this thread, today you think your yesterday's position was errorneous and your new position is not in error. This means that tomorrow, you might decide that today's position too is errorneous. You will never be certain of the truth till Jesus comes. Don't you see the chaos and confusion you are in?

Mr_Anony: I am not and have never claimed to be your teacher. The reason I post on NL is so that together we can study scripture and not so that we can flex and compare our puny little theology muscles

You actually teach too. You tell people what you think is right, as though you were sure it was right.

Mr_Anony: I submit myself totally to God's word and I will advice you to do the same.

You don't submit yourself totally to God's word. You submit yourself totally to your FALLIBLE INTERPRETATION of the Bible, which could be wrong. You do not even submit your self to God's word that comes to us through ORAL tradition, as St. Paul advised in 2 Thess 2:15: "15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." - Or do you?

italo:
Is that what the early Christians did? Did they take the Bible as the final authority or the Church? Did each person interprete the Bible on his own and come to his own conclusion of what the Bible says or did they let the Church teach them? How can you know if you are in error or not since you are fallible? Yesterday, you thought you were not in error on the topic of this thread, today you think your yesterday's position was errorneous and your new position is not in error. This means that tomorrow, you might decide that today's position too is errorneous. You will never be certain of the truth till Jesus comes. Don't you see the chaos and confusion you are in?

LOl, so I should leave studying the bible and come and listen to your "infallible" pope abi? I hear you. Please go and read your bible

You actually teach too. You tell people what you think is right, as though you were sure it was right.

I always urge people to study their bibles like I am urging you now, Go and read your bible.

You don't submit yourself totally to God's word. You submit yourself totally to your FALLIBLE INTERPRETATION of the Bible, which could be wrong. You do not even submit your self to God's word that comes to us through ORAL tradition, as St. Paul advised in 2 Thess 2:15: "15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." - Or do you?

Really? I've got the infallible Holy Spirit and He speaks to me. That's the best "oral tradition" don't you think?

italo:

The fullness is in The Catholic Church.

The Church is catholic.

That would mean that every single one of the 40,000 "churches" in this world are teaching the fullness of truth, since they all have "at least two believers together". Of course this is totally WRONG, as we know they teach contradictory doctrines...and Christ cannot contradict himself.

How in blazes does it mean that?

The walk can actually lead towards less or even a wrong comprehension of Jesus. Depends on which way you are working.

Depends who's leading.

It is acceptable that our understanding be constantly improved but it is not acceptable that our understanding be changing haphazardly between contrasting positions without being even sure of the former or latter position.

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight."

You know where that came from, don't you?

Perhaps, you'll be willing to submit your doctrine for examination.

It's somewhere on this thread, I'm sure. I think you were talking about it when you said I'm sure of nothing with my "I think... I think.... I think..."

Image123: I'm tempted to reply italo and the other one, until i remember that they are not in this discussion, bunch of perveets.

Mr_Anony:
Lol, never knew I was infallible "god" to you. Better go and repent from your idolatry

that is funny.

Mr_Anony:
I will always maintain that the bible has the final say for me, and where I find myself in error, I am not ashamed to correct myself as many times


I am not and have never claimed to be your teacher. The reason I post on NL is so that together we can study scripture

I submit myself totally to God's word and I will advice you to do the same.

ok, on this note have a look at this:



"The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence." (Psalm 115:17).

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." (Ecclesiastes 9:5).

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." (Ecclesiastes 9:5).

"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." (Ecclesiastes 9:10).

"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." (Psalm 146:4).

"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." (Genesis 3:19).

This scriptures does not need human interpretaion.
consistencies
The truth of God's word
peac

italo:

Perhaps.



Is that what the early Christians did? Did they take the Bible as the final authority or the Church? Did each person interprete the Bible on his own and come to his own conclusion of what the Bible says or did they let the Church teach them? How can you know if you are in error or not since you are fallible? Yesterday, you thought you were not in error on the topic of this thread, today you think your yesterday's position was errorneous and your new position is not in error. This means that tomorrow, you might decide that today's position too is errorneous. You will never be certain of the truth till Jesus comes. Don't you see the chaos and confusion you are in?



You actually teach too. You tell people what you think is right, as though you were sure it was right.



You don't submit yourself totally to God's word. You submit yourself totally to your FALLIBLE INTERPRETATION of the Bible, which could be wrong. You do not even submit your self to God's word that comes to us through ORAL tradition, as St. Paul advised in 2 Thess 2:15: "15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." - Or do you?

your tradition contradicts the scriptures. QED.

The tradition that apostle paul was talking about is the modusoparendy of the apostles befor the epistle were written and not that of men that came after there death.

Since they the apostles wrote the NT teaching alone(mark and acts are history), they had the authority to that end.

It is unthinkable that the apostles will shade their authority to men after them,
this men that they even warned us about that "after their leaving(death) that evil men, wolves will come in and seduce many"

Again, the "true" tradition cannot contradict the words of the apostles.

This people you reference to have no authority that comes close to that of the apostles.

Were they apostles? No.

The words of the apostles of christ is final and any contradiction to that end is useless and of no value since the spirit of God cannot contradict itself.

"By their fruit also you will know those men" Jesus said.

Should i show you the fruit of this men that came after the apostles have died?