ChinenyeN: The nature of "Igbo" ethnic identity and the history behind it isn't news to anyone. So, I really do not understand why some of you choose to act so oblivious to it. See how Afam stated his response to Antivirus in such a simple and comprehensible manner. The nature of "Igbo" ethnic history isn't news to anyone. It is common knowledge, as evidenced by Afam's simple and concise response. So I just do not get why some of you try so hard to draw up an unsubstantiated image of "Igbo" ethnic history, when all of us here know the truth.

we all know that ur stay in nairaland is a very controversial one. You don't agree to what people say and nobody agrees to what you say either. So we are not suprise.

Abagworo:

This is the 1st time you are on point. That's what we should research on and not talk ignorantly. IMHO I believe that Igbo was also one of the clans that made up the greater Igbo or the word was used in reference to something forbidden. There are many towns that bore it as either suffix or prefix even in unrelated clans. In that list of Cuban tribes you can spot "Igbo Nduri" and in Olaudah Equiano's story, he used the phrase "Onye Igbo" in reference to a people who were red in color that were going from town to town to collect slaves. I somehow feel the word "Igbo" is connected with Arochukwu people and meant "Slave people" in ancient Igbo language. Knowing fully well that the Aros wielded so much influence and had interactions very early with the Europeans, it could be from there that the word Igbo originated. If you read the history of Orji Kalu's hometown of "Igbere" they believe that it literally translates to "Nde Igbo ere" which means "people that Arochukwu could not sell". This is purely my opinion but I believe its very much close to the real. How many of you know that the word "Chukwu" is of Aro origin?

you're the only one arguing ignorantly here. Those pointless histories you read here and then haven't given u the chance to reason well. You post histories after histories at any slightest provocation. But they haven't helped u but instead made you more confused because the numerous histories you always post don't agree with each other. Chukwu originating from aro? I don't doubt or believe it. It may be true or false. But i think that It can't originate from aro instead aro made it popular.

pazienza: Ogbuehi Francis ellah, a late ogba king,maintained that ogba is igbo till he died,his greedy people were against him, i wanted to run a thread,using the extracts from that ogba site to show that ogba was as igbo as nri,and was not influenced by any igbo group. But i am pretty much pre occupied with exams now. Anti virus,can you float a thread on ogba kingdom,i will be glad if you do.. Thanks.

my brother, your wish is my command. I will do as you said.

The word Chukwu didn't originate from Aro. It's just that Aro exploits popularized it throughout ali Igbo because the portal to God's face (Ibini Ukpabi) is located in Aro. The term Chukwu Abiama (short for Chukwu a bia mara nke wu eziokwu) was also popularized by the Aro.

Antivirus92: we all know that ur stay in nairaland is a very controversial one. You don't agree to what people say and nobody agrees to what you say either. So we are not suprise.

I don't know why but I find the conflict between you and Chinenye extremely hilarious. You guys are like fire and water.

odumchi: I don't know why but I find the conflict between you and Chinenye extremely hilarious. You guys are like fire and water.

Ochi lei. And for good reason. How can I allow such a character to continually disseminate lies, in the name of "Igbo"?

Let the royal rumble continue.

ChinenyeN:
Ochi lei. And for good reason. How can I allow such a character to continually disseminate lies, in the name of "Igbo"?

There is no need for your continous use of harsh language here. He is not in any way disseminating lies. This topic is debatable and if you not agree on what he debated is not enough to label it as lies.
@Topic, we were Africans before the whitemen arrived, isn't it?. But how many of us know that we we were Africans?. How many of us knows about other Africans eg. Zulus, Mandigoes, Wolofs, Ndebeles, Abysinians etc. If an Igbo from Obowu does not know about an Igbo from Nsukka does not mean that Igbo does not exist before the whitemen came.
There were Igbo prior to colonialism, Igbo is not a colonial creation, never. I may be wrong but it should be debated as intellectuals and not as omatas.

Antivirus92: my brother, your wish is my command. I will do as you said.

Please don't mind that guy. Let Ogba people be and don't bring the Ika-like thread on Nairaland where no logical conclusion can be reached. Today Ogba is claiming an ethnic group of their own and that is their right. If they once belonged to the Igbo fold, oil has changed that and they are happy being on their own.

Andre Uweh:
There is no need for your continous use of harsh language here. He is not in any way disseminating lies. This topic is debatable and if you not agree on what he debated is not enough to label it as lies.
@Topic, we were Africans before the whitemen arrived, isn't it?. But how many of us know that we we were Africans?. How many of us knows about other Africans eg. Zulus, Mandigoes, Wolofs, Ndebeles, Abysinians etc. If an Igbo from Obowu does not know about an Igbo from Nsukka does not mean that Igbo does not exist before the whitemen came.
There were Igbo prior to colonialism, Igbo is not a colonial creation, never. I may be wrong but it should be debated as intellectuals and not as omatas.

Dede'm Andre I wetarala'm ezigbo omuma atu iji kowatara unu ihe anyi na rurita. Africa as a people was also a creation made by non-Africans. Prior to coming of whitemen we didn't call ourselves Africans even though we knew we were black. It is same scenario we had in different ethnic groups across Africa. In some instances the fusion of people worked while it failed among others. For example the Efik/Ibibio/Annang could not be merged and called "Mmonu" or "Kwa". Same with Bini and Esan accepting to be one Edo despite having similar culture and mutual intelligibility. That thing worked mainly among Igbos and Yorubas but the Igbo had a crack after the war which weakened the bond.

Abagworo:

Dede'm Andre I wetarala'm ezigbo omuma atu iji kowatara unu ihe anyi na rurita. Africa as a people was also a creation made by non-Africans. Prior to coming of whitemen we didn't call ourselves Africans even though we knew we were black. It is same scenario we had in different ethnic groups across Africa. In some instances the fusion of people worked while it failed among others. For example the Efik/Ibibio/Annang could not be merged and called "Mmonu" or "Kwa". Same with Bini and Esan accepting to be one Edo despite having similar culture and mutual intelligibility. That thing worked mainly among Igbos and Yorubas but the Igbo had a crack after the war which weakened the bond.

Udo diri gi nwannem.
Aghotaram ihe idere. There were inter-clan relations prior to the coming of the whitemen. These clans did not require interpreters to carry out their activities with other clans. Hence an Obowu man knows that an Nkwere man he is dealing with is his brother because they speak a common language. So is it possible for the these two mentioned clans not know that they are Igbo despite the fact one is Obowu and another is Nkwere?. Am sure they know that both of them are Igbo despite the fact, there was no central king that lorded it over them.

Andre, as Abagworo rightly pointed out, "African" categorization is also of foreign origin. So, if you might want to reconsider the point that you're trying to make. That is an aside. What I actually want to focus on, with your post, is that your African anology does not work. Unlike "African", which is simply a categorization, "Igbo" has developed into a full-blown ethnic identity. That we are "African" cannot relate the same way as saying that we are "Igbo", and I'm site you realize that.

I also do not believe that this topic is in any way debatable, simply because the history is there for all of us to see. There is no controversy to it all, and it isn't some occurrence of the distant past. So I don't see how it is up for debate, as if to say it is something we never knew before. People are trying to argue something that is easily verifiable, and it makes no sense to me.

ChinenyeN: Andre, as Abagworo rightly pointed out, "African" categorization is also of foreign origin. So, if you might want to reconsider the point that you're trying to make. That is an aside. What I actually want to focus on, with your post, is that your African anology does not work. Unlike "African", which is simply a categorization, "Igbo" has developed into a full-blown ethnic identity. That we are "African" cannot relate the same way as saying that we are "Igbo", and I'm site you realize that.

I also do not believe that this topic is in any way debatable, simply because the history is there for all of us to see. There is no controversy to it all, and it isn't some occurrence of the distant past. So I don't see how it is up for debate, as if to say it is something we never knew before. People are trying to argue something that is easily verifiable, and it makes no sense to me.

Some people think that saying or writing about it is detrimental to Igbo unity.

Abagworo:

Some people think that saying or writing about it is detrimental to Igbo unity.

Not really, but it is not believable that the British came to Nigeria and all of a sudden we became Igbo. The Colonial masters already knew about the Igbo existence and Ndigbo who have travelled far and wide knew about other Igbo people around them with same language The key factor is awareness.
Even in todays Alaigbo, An Igbo from Isinweke who hasn't travelled out of Isinweke for all his life will find it difficult to know about Ovim people and Ovim community. He may think they are not Igbo. But if informed, ideas will be different.

Andre Uweh:
Not really, but it is not believable that the British came to Nigeria and all of a sudden we became Igbo. The Colonial masters already knew about the Igbo existence and Ndigbo who have travelled far and wide knew about other Igbo people around them with same language The key factor is awareness.
Even in todays Alaigbo, An Igbo from Isinweke who hasn't travelled out of Isinweke for all his life will find it difficult to know about Ovim people and Ovim community. He may think they are not Igbo. But if informed, ideas will be different.

We are all saying the same thing. There was river Niger before Mongo Park but different sections knew it with different names. Igbos knew it as Orinmili or Orinmiri in their section while others have different names for it. At the end of the day, it was christened Niger river and we all accepted it. That does not in anyway mean that Niger is the real name because we still call it Orinmiri.

2ndly before the Whitemen, we didn't know the source and never heard of anywhere called "Futa Jalon" or any River called Niger.

Abagworo:


We are all saying the same thing. There was river Niger before Mongo Park but different sections knew it with different names. Igbos knew it as Orinmili or Orinmiri in their section while others have different names for it. At the end of the day, it was christened Niger river and we all accepted it. That does not in anyway mean that Niger is the real name because we still call it Orinmiri.

2ndly before the Whitemen, we didn't know the source and never heard of anywhere called "Futa Jalon" or any River called Niger.

The Niger is too long and extensive. An Aboh man or Idah man on the bank of the Niger might not have travelled through the Niger up to Mali and Guinea. But within Igboland, there were inter-group relations and these groups wih similar languages and culture for sure knew that they are one group-Igbo, except those who lack exposure.

Let me make it clear, igbo is an identity/ethnicity unlike river niger that is a lifeless creature,igbo is made up of humans who have brain. So if some people are not igbo,there is no way they can in any way accept igbo because of white men unlike river niger that can accept any name because of it's defenceless nature. If white men have been rumping people together,why didn't they make a mistake of including igbo close neighbours like igala,annang,ibom people into igbo ethnicity or join hausa and kanuri or yorubas and edos?

Antivirus92: Let me make it clear, igbo is an identity/ethnicity unlike river niger that is a lifeless creature,igbo is made up of humans who have brain. So if some people are not igbo,there is no way they can in any way accept igbo because of white men unlike river niger that can accept any name because of it's defenceless nature. If white men have been rumping people together,why didn't they make a mistake of including igbo close neighbours like igala,annang,ibom people into igbo ethnicity or join hausa and kanuri or yorubas and edos?

They did it based on language similarity. I don't know what is so difficult for you to comprehend. I've used the case of Efik, Ibibio and Annang who spoke similar language and had similar culture. There is Benin/Esan as well as Urhobo/Isoko in Delta and Edo. Igbo was purely a language group without any accepted collective name. That is why I used River Niger.

One thing I've come to conclude about us is that we have a short memory. In future some will argue that the cloth worn today as Igbo traditional cloth has always been there and is made of a particular material. Others will argue that Wachuku or Ibo is a wrong spelling while Awkunanaw is right. All these things are too recent.

I've always said on this subject, there are obviously the original igbo people who called themselves igbo from time immemorial. Go to their towns, you find the term 'igbo' fully reflected in the names.

My ngwa people did not refer to themselves as igbo until the whiteman came to classify them as such. This is also reflected in the names of our towns and villages like itu ngwa, aba ngwa, etc.

The fact remains that the key elements of igbo are clearly missing in ngwa. Though, quite a number of ngwas may today identify themselves with igbo, but not everyone likes such classification.

mbatuku2: I've always said on this subject, there are obviously the original igbo people who called themselves igbo from time immemorial. Go to their towns, you find the term 'igbo' fully reflected in the names.

My ngwa people did not refer to themselves as igbo until the whiteman came to classify them as such. This is also reflected in the names of our towns and villages like itu ngwa, aba ngwa, etc.

The fact remains that the key elements of igbo are clearly missing in ngwa. Though, quite a number of ngwas may today identify themselves with igbo, but not everyone likes such classification.

This is an entirely different discussion.

odumchi:

This is an entirely different discussion.

I think it's related. Anyway, I hope it's discussed at another time.

Abagworo:


They did it based on language similarity. I don't know what is so difficult for you to comprehend. I've used the case of Efik, Ibibio and Annang who spoke similar language and had similar culture. There is Benin/Esan as well as Urhobo/Isoko in Delta and Edo. Igbo was purely a language group without any accepted collective name. That is why I used River Niger.

One thing I've come to conclude about us is that we have a short memory. In future some will argue that the cloth worn today as Igbo traditional cloth has always been there and is made of a particular material. Others will argue that Wachuku or Ibo is a wrong spelling while Awkunanaw is right. All these things are too recent.

your short-sightedness is immeasurable. I won't argue with you again. The last thing i will drop for you is this: any group of people with similar language and culture MUST be related in one way or the other. Take it or leave it! The only way language can unite different groups of people without them relating to each other is through COLONISATION,KINGDOM EXPANSION,TRADING. Without these three key points,any group with similar language and culture are RELATED! And unfortunately,igbo didn't experience those three main points.

"Language group", lumping together like a piece of cloth, "Igbo is derogatory word", Bla bla bla.
How does all these even make sense to the people fighting tooth and nail to assert these blatant lies.
How English man wan take differentiate between Idoma and Igbo?
One clown even said our non-Igboness was common knowledge!

mbatuku2: I've always said on this subject, there are obviously the original igbo people who called themselves igbo from time immemorial. Go to their towns, you find the term 'igbo' fully reflected in the names.

My ngwa people did not refer to themselves as igbo until the whiteman came to classify them as such. This is also reflected in the names of our towns and villages like itu ngwa, aba ngwa, etc.

The fact remains that the key elements of igbo are clearly missing in ngwa. Though, quite a number of ngwas may today identify themselves with igbo, but not everyone likes such classification.

if ngwa is not igbo,there is no big deal in it. They can start any ethnic group. That's their own cup of bournvita. But they should please avoid adulterating igbo history with their history.

Antivirus92: your short-sightedness is immeasurable. I won't argue with you again. The last thing i will drop for you is this: any group of people with similar language and culture MUST be related in one way or the other. Take it or leave it! The only way language can unite different groups of people without them relating to each other is through COLONISATION,KINGDOM EXPANSION,TRADING. Without these three key points,any group with similar language and culture are RELATED! And unfortunately,igbo didn't experience those three main points.

I told you, they're gonna turn a blind eye to any sense you are making.
Let them go and say this to somebody in the real world and I promise them a black-eye.

Antivirus92: if ngwa is not igbo,there is no big deal in it. They can start any ethnic group. That's their own cup of bournvita. But they should please avoid adulterating igbo history with their history.

Who are these people always working Ngwa into every Igbo topic on nairaland?

kwangi: I told you, they're gonna turn a blind eye to any sense you are making.
Let them go and say this to somebody in the real world and I promise them a black-eye.

nwannem ka ana-ekwunu. Whether they take it or leave it,the truth must surely be told. I don't fvcking care about what they believe in.

Antivirus92: nwannem ka ana-ekwunu. Whether they take it or leave it,the truth must surely be told. I don't fvcking care about what they believe in.

Ofcourse! Anyi ga na-ekwu. Maka na igbachi nkiti odika ha ama ihe ha na ekwu.
They are actually an insignificant bunch, but we still have to let them know that they are talking trash.

kwangi: Ofcourse! Anyi ga na-ekwu. Maka na igbachi nkiti odika ha ama ihe ha na ekwu.
They are actually an insignificant bunch, but we still have to let them know that they are talking trash.

na the thing naa.

To make things clearer can you Antivirus verify that your people knew themselves as Igbo before Europeans coming or as members of a group with a different name?

Take a look at Igbere as the name of an Igbo clan.

But the name Igbere is rooted in a war of
survival.
In those days there lived a certain man named
Ota Obom. War was his life. And he had fought
and conquered every community within the
vicinity in pursuit of slaves. He had active
support of Arochukwu(Aro Oke Igbo) known for
pervasive slave trading. But Ota Obom met his
waterloo in Igbere. The story of his beheading
and the inability of the slave traders to enter
the town make it one of the few in Igboland
which effectively repelled slave traders and
earned the name Igbo Eru or Igbo Ere.
“This is one of the few towns where you
cannot find Aro settlements’’ says Elder
Ukaegbu, smiling proudly. “Our forbears never
allowed slave traders to get into Igbere’’
At the killing of Ota Obom by the gallant Igbere
warriors who, going by what Eze Job Ukandu of
Amaukwu told Sunday Sun, were aided by
great seers at Eke forest, Ota Obom’s warriors
dispersed in confusion and the Aro slave
traders became frustrated. It must have been
with clenched teeth of annoyance and the
sight of an impregnable town that they
pronounced it Igbo Eru meaning ‘the place
which Aro Oke Igbos could not reach and
capture’ or Igbo Ere [the place where Igbo
could not sell]. Both expressions gave birth to
Igbere.

Don't you think that this fingers the role of Arochukwu traders in the Igbo naming.


Now take a look at Olaudah Equiano's own story

These(markets) are sometimes visited by stout
mahogany-coloured men from the south west of us: we
call them Oye - Eboe(Onye-Igbo) , which term signifies red men
living at a distance. They generally bring us fire-arms,
gunpowder,hats, beads, and dried fish. The last we
esteemed a great rarity, as our waters were only brooks
and springs. These articles they barter with us for
odoriferous woods and earth, and our salt of wood ashes.
They always carry slaves through our land; but the
strictest account is exacted of their manner of procuring
them before they are suffered to pass. Sometimes
indeed we sold slaves to them , but they were only
prisoners of war, or such among us as had been
convicted of kidnapping, or adultery, and some other
crimes, which we esteemed heinous. This practice of
kidnapping induces me to think, that, notwithstanding all
our strictness, their principal business among us was to
trepan our people. I remember too they carried great
sacks along with them , which not long after I had an
opportunity of fatally seeing applied to that infamous
purpose.

IMHO that Igbo applies strictly to Arochukwu. Or was any other Igbo clan into the slave trade ? Notice they carried slaves to the coast in exchange for European products. They must definitely have told Europeans that name Igbo.

Abagworo: To make things clearer can you Antivirus verify that your people knew themselves as Igbo before Europeans coming or as members of a group with a different name?

Take a look at Igbere as the name of an Igbo clan.



Don't you think that this fingers the role of Arochukwu traders in the Igbo naming.


Now take a look at Olaudah Equiano's own story




IMHO that Igbo applies strictly to Arochukwu. Or was any other Igbo clan into the slave trade ? Notice they carried slaves to the coast in exchange for European products. They must definitely have told Europeans that name Igbo.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Since you were born, have u ever heard that the name eboe or igbo means "red"? Okay, i have read a piece of olaudo's writting where he referred to himself as an igbo slave. But today,they are reffering to other people as "oye eboe"(note-that lang itself is igbo). Can't you see that it's complicated? .finally do u know what the aro slave traders call those people? Don't be suprise that they also call those people "oye ebo" too. So who is the "oye ebo" among the two groups when they are calling themselves "oye ebo" .

Antivirus92: hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Since you were born, have u ever heard that the name eboe or igbo means "red"? Okay, i have read a piece of olaudo's writting where he referred to himself as an igbo slave. But today,they are reffering to other people as "oye eboe"(note-that lang itself is igbo). Can't you see that it's complicated? .finally do u know what the aro slave traders call those people? Don't be suprise that they also call those people "oye ebo" too. So who is the "oye ebo" among the two groups when they are calling themselves "oye ebo" .

There's a difference between language and identity. There was no collective identity for everyone that spoke Igbo. This applies to many languages including Edo, Yoruba and Efik. Our argument is not about language. We are discussing about the Igbo ethnic consciousness. Even till this day, it reflects in our lives as Igbos.

BTW how old are you? I have a feeling you are a teenager.