Apparently, sin is said to have originated in GOD'S own kingdom, in his backyard. What are we to make of this account?

That God created sin in his own palace, or was he unable to prevent the generation/creation of the notion of sin? What does this say about his omniscience/omnipotence? Apparently, many other angels have been in the business of sinning ever since the very first one sinned. Who said only this world was sinful then?

If he is unable to deal with sin in his on backyard, can we trust him to deal with it here on earth. By the evidence, I would say NO. He has tried many many times before and failed; Sodom/Gomorah, Noah's Flood etc. are cases in point.

How could he NOT have known that his attempts at eradicating sin would fail miserably?

If he has not been successful in dealing with sin on earth and in heaven, should we believe him when he say that THE NEW HEAVEN AND THE NEW EARTH will be free from sin?

What is going to stop the angels from starting the process all over again?


God is the author of evil according to the following verses:

* (Isaiah 45:7, KJV) - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."


* (Amos 3:6) - "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"



===============================================================================

Some of my other threads


The Dangers Of Religious Fundamentalism To Intellectualism
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110955.msg1929006#msg1929006

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles And Some History: Who Was Jesus?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112697.msg1954632#msg1954632

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles: Old Testament Stories
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112679.msg1954426#msg1954426

Human Sacrifice In The Bible: Lev 27: 29 & Judges 11
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112584.msg1953340#msg1953340

Please, Please, Please: Christians - Read Read Read Your Bibles
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112578.msg1953311#msg1953311

When Was Jesus Crucified?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112557.msg1952665#msg1952665

On Conversion To A Religion (christianity Or I-slam)
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112547.msg1952353#msg1952353

Faith-healers And Tele-evangelists
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112398.msg1950528#msg1950528

Where Did Sin Originate?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112377.msg1950291#msg1950291

For The Non-beleivers Only, 1
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112262.msg1948957#msg1948957

Would Christains Be Criminals And Offenders If They Were Not Christians?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112259.msg1948919#msg1948919

On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 1
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112240.msg1948631#msg1948631

Has Atheism Got Principle? No
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112216.msg1948180#msg1948180

It Is Biblical To Have Sex (and Lots Of It) Before Marriage
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112139.msg1946940#msg1946940

Should The Old Testament Laws Be Observed In The Modern Era?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112114.msg1946682#msg1946682

Founding A State or Nation On Religious Principles
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112086.msg1946268#msg1946268

Great Books About Non-belief
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111928.msg1943935#msg1943935

Who Are The Self-declared Non-believer? Resources For You
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111806.msg1942137#msg1942137

Beware of a Simplistic Interpretation of Jesus's 2nd Coming Passages
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111677.msg1939992#msg1939992

Archbishop Cause Furore Over Sharia Law In The Uk
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111645.msg1939155#msg1939155

Eminent Christian Scientist (francis Collins) Explains The Evolution Of Humans
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111482.msg1936158#msg1936158

Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111474.msg1936099#msg1936099

Why Biology Is So Important To Our Modern World
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111466.msg1935975#msg1935975

Genesis Vs Genetics
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111227.msg1932655#msg1932655

Jesus Genealogy
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111222.msg1932616#msg1932616

£300 (three - Hundred Pound Sterling) Essay Competition
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111143.msg1931508#msg1931508

Beware Of Religious Fundamentalism In Your University Campuses
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110965.msg1929160#msg1929160
===================================================================================

Any takers on these issues, pls?

@therationa
I will not attempt to answer your question, but I will leave a quotation for you to meditate upon.

"The demonic is primarily within us. We know it as the subterranean force that would lead us to destructive actions against others and ultimately even against ourselves if it were given free rein. It is generally quiet when all is going well with us, for then morality pays, and the status quo is what we desire most. But as soon as our security is threatened, the demonic within us is unleashed with the greatest ferocity and it attacks the person who threatens our ease. It spits out in venomous jealousy at anyone who seems to have gifts superior to our own. It will stop at nothing to demean his abilities and diminish his reputation by subtle calumny and calculated innuendo. It saps the faith of the innocent and works for the complete destruction of all that is noble and beautiful. Its essence is nihilism. The devil is in essence the spirit who denies. No wonder Jesus is reported as teaching that whosoever is a cause of stumbling to one of these little ones who have faith in Him, it would be better for that person to have a millstone hung round his neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea. (Matthew 18:6) We all have this in us, so much so that we cannot begin to know who we really are until we have faced this terrible reality."

Taken from here (Smouldering Fire: the work of the Holy Spirit) -> http://www.martinisrael.u-net.com/fire/index.html

@imhotep
Here we go again!PREACHING!
Answer the question raised by the poster.Where does the first sin come from?

jagunlabi:

@imhotep
Here we go again!PREACHING!
Answer the question raised by the poster.Where does the first sin come from?

therationa should know that many of his questions were answered 800 years ago by the scholastic theologian Thomas Aquinas. He was a prolific writer and I can only make references to online copies of his work.
To better understand his works, you have to understand the modus operandi of[i] scholastic theology[/i].

Please click here -> http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/aquinas/summa/sum071.htm to see the answer to these questions (and many many more):

1. Whether the evil of fault can be in the angels?
2. Whether only the sin of pride and envy can exist in an angel?
3. Whether the devil desired to be as God?
4. Whether any demons are naturally wicked?
5. Whether the devil was wicked by the fault of his own will in the first instant of his creation?
6. Whether there was any interval between the creation and the fall of the angel?
7. Whether the highest angel among those who sinned was the highest of all?
8. Whether the sin of the highest angel was the cause of the others sinning?
9. Whether those who sinned were as many as those who remained firm?

Anyone prepare to takes this one head-on?

God created man and gave him free will. He does not force people. So he cant force people to leave sin. But be sure that when the new heart and the new heaven evolves, people that will be there would have been completely purged of sin on their own will. So it will be simple to live in a sinless world.

Come to think of it, since you learnt how to walk, you have never for one day gone out crawling on all fours, have you? But we all know that that is where you learnt to walk. Walking has become a part of you now, that you will not think of crawling again. That is the way it will be in the new heaven and earth Holiness would have become a part of us that no one will think of sinning.

In your bible,According to Isaiah 45:7 the Lord that you go to church and worship every Sunday created evil:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Horus:

In your bible,According to Isaiah 45:7 [/b]the Lord that you go to church and worship every Sunday [b]created evil:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Well spotted. I hadn't come across that before. Excellent.

Touche!Make the ignorant christians weep.Lol!

Horus:

In your bible,According to Isaiah 45:7 [/b]the Lord that you go to church and worship every Sunday [b]created evil:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and [b]create evil: I the LORD do all these things.[/b]

@Therationa: You love to beat up on the Christianity and christians, too much! I do not think that Christianity and Christians know how sin was created and why it is allowed to exist by God the Almighty the Creator. Since Jesus himself participated the Lord's prayer, as if he was commanded to recite it himself and also teach it to his companions, we know that Jesus was even concerned about sinning. Further it is amazing that the prayer was named the Lord's prayer, but it immediately starts with Our father! There is so much inconsistencies in Christendom that I doubt that they will know the truth even if it stares them down, without anything in between them and the truth.

I know that they call the devil Lucifer, former Angel. Yet the nature of the Angels is to completely obey the Creator. Further since they claim that Lucifer has other Angels with him in the "revolt", I wonder if they care to name those or some of these Angels? t is no wonder that they continue to attach Original sin concept to mankind, and when they are asked what will be the fate of a child who died before knowing right and wrong or being able to be Baptist, since Jesus was baptisted at the age of 13, I will take this age as a benchmark, they are always stomped and waffle in the weak and animic answer they provide. Each time shifting the goalpost, because they just not know.

Anyone prepare to takes this one head-on?

What I have done above is to kill your hope of expecting a good response from the Christians. I will provide Is'lamic view, directly from the Qur'an. You will see that it makes great sense if you throw away your initial misgivings that there is no God, for all my premises of explanation is directly tied to the truth that God exists, and will judge mankind; man and jinns in particular.

How could he NOT have known that his attempts at eradicating sin would fail miserably?

If he has not been successful in dealing with sin on earth and in heaven, should we believe him when he say that THE NEW HEAVEN AND THE NEW EARTH will be free from sin?

What is going to stop the angels from starting the process all over again?

I see that you are talking about a non all knowing entity, above. But my God the Lord who created everything knows everything. He is the only One who knows the future, because He is the Lord of the future as well. And a proof of this is that He will be the only Judge on the day of Judgement, rewarding in Mercy or punishing as only He determines. Afterall, death will occur to everyone, also a future event as well as the judgement day event.

The promise of God the Lord of all creation is true. So when before Adam was created, since it is the condition of human being that really concerns you, God had saved Iblis (a jinn) from destructions among those who were destroyed. He had acted as a believer, relatively to the quality of his community. Now Iblis was in the community of the Angels and worshiiped fervently, but God knew his heart. So when God said that He was going to man as a 'Viceroy,' in the earth the Angels were worried because even they do not the unseen, in the context of God knowledge.  But God told them tht He knows wht they the Angels do not know. (Please bear in mind that in all of these stages and beyond, until the birth of Jesus was announced to Mary by the Angel, Jesus do not exist and the Christians can not provide any proof of his existence).

So when Adam was formed as a shape just lying there, Iblis who is not an Angel but a Jinn was the only one who continues to be curious about this pile of mud. The reason is that the evil that laid in the core of Iblis heart was brought forth by the start of the creation of Adam. Iblis saw that attention is now on this thing rather on him. Of course Iblis has a free will exercised in goodliness before and now at the beginning of Adam's creation, exercised it in an evil way. He began to search and get curious wanting to know the weaknesses of Adam.

So when Adam became a living soul, soul and body together, God commanded the community of Angels (Iblis the Jinn was in this community, as a minority and of different nature), to bow to Adam. This was obedience in command to God, but the process was just prostration to Adam the new being. All the Angels prostrated, but Iblis refused. God Almighty asked him why he did not prostrate? Iblis said that he was created from Smokelss fire (a sign of discrimination) and Adam was created from dirt (a sign of superiority to Adam). The Lord God Almighty then said to Iblis to get out of His presence, and Iblis who is now Shaitan said that he wanted God to allow him to remain until the end of time so that he can deceive children of Adam from the straight path. God Almighty granted him the reprieve until end of time. God said that Shaitan will not be able to seduce those of Adam's children who keep on the straight path. (Note that throughout this process, Shaitan, even while Iblis did not seek repentance).

Now Eve was created and God instructed them to not go near the tree and the consequence is that they will be evil doers. But Shaitan was finding a way because of his evil in his heart to deceive them. So he seduced these innocent souls to disobey God as they went to the tree, against God's commandment to them. This act of disobedience earned them, Adam and Eve (legally married by the way), being sent out of paradise and down to earth. Of course, God warned them now that they and their Children should be aware of the open enemity that Shaitan has for them. As they got to the earth they were very remorseful and and God inspired them with a process of forgiveness. They seeked it and God accepted it (So you see there was a time that Adam and Eve, did not sin. That was prior to being instructed against getting near the tree. We as human have this periods as well. This period is from birth and all the way to puberty), from them. The other side is that Shaitan who used to be Iblis never seeked forgiveness and never repented. But continues to device all kind of deceits to make human go astray. (You will see here that there is no Original sin with human or even jinn, except sin is an act of disobedience, after instruction have been provided against it).

But God shows His mercy by also giving mankind a process to seek redress, forgiveness and repentance. God therefore accepts repentance, again and again, from whoever seeks it. But it must be sincer and it must be seeked up to but just before the procss of death begins.

IF YOU HAVE ANY FURTHER CLARIFICATION, IS'LAM WILL PROVIDE IT, INSHAALLAH.

Let me post Aquinas' 800 year old answer to this question. Please read carefully, it is rather intense ->

Whether the supreme good, God, is the cause of evil?

Objection 1: It would seem that the supreme good, God, is the cause of evil. For it is said (Isa. 45:5, 7): "I am the Lord, and there is no other God, forming the light, and creating darkness, making peace, and creating evil." And Amos 3:6, "Shall there be evil in a city, which the Lord hath not done?"

Objection 2: Further, the effect of the secondary cause is reduced to the first cause. But good is the cause of evil, as was said above (A[1]). Therefore, since God is the cause of every good, as was shown above (Q[2] , A[3]; Q[6], AA[1],4), it follows that also every evil is from God.

Objection 3: Further, as is said by the Philosopher (Phys. ii, text 30), the cause of both safety and danger of the ship is the same. But God is the cause of the safety of all things. Therefore He is the cause of all perdition and of all evil.

On the contrary, Augustine says (QQ. 83, qu. 21), that, "God is not the author of evil because He is not the cause of tending to not-being."

I answer that, As appears from what was said (A[1]), the evil which consists in the defect of action is always caused by the defect of the agent. But in God there is no defect, but the highest perfection, as was shown above (Q[4], A[1]). Hence, the evil which consists in defect of action, or which is caused by defect of the agent, is not reduced to God as to its cause.

But the evil which consists in the corruption of some things is reduced to God as the cause. And this appears as regards both natural things and voluntary things. For it was said (A[1]) that some agent inasmuch as it produces by its power a form to which follows corruption and defect, causes by its power that corruption and defect. But it is manifest that the form which God chiefly intends in things created is the good of the order of the universe. Now, the order of the universe requires, as was said above (Q[22], A[2], ad 2; Q[48], A[2]), that there should be some things that can, and do sometimes, fail. And thus God, by causing in things the good of the order of the universe, consequently and as it were by accident, causes the corruptions of things, according to 1 2:6: "The Lord killeth and maketh alive." But when we read that "God hath not made death" (Wis. 1:13), the sense is that God does not will death for its own sake. Nevertheless the order of justice belongs to the order of the universe; and this requires that penalty should be dealt out to sinners. And so God is the author of the evil which is penalty, but not of the evil which is fault, by reason of what is said above.

Reply to Objection 1: These passages refer to the evil of penalty, and not to the evil of fault.

Reply to Objection 2: The effect of the deficient secondary cause is reduced to the first non-deficient cause as regards what it has of being and perfection, but not as regards what it has of defect; just as whatever there is of motion in the act of limping is caused by the motive power, whereas what there is of obliqueness in it does not come from the motive power, but from the curvature of the leg. And, likewise, whatever there is of being and action in a bad action, is reduced to God as the cause; whereas whatever defect is in it is not caused by God, but by the deficient secondary cause.

Reply to Objection 3: The sinking of a ship is attributed to the sailor as the cause, from the fact that he does not fulfil what the safety of the ship requires; but God does not fail in doing what is necessary for the safety of all. Hence there is no parity.

@Imhotep: Uh? Thats poor. And your guy Aquinas provided a poor response to Therationa's question, above.

olabowale:

@Imhotep: Uh? Thats poor. And your guy Aquinas provided a poor response to Therationa's question, above.

Good. Can you highlight the parts you consider to be poor?

Imhotep: Everything! If a question is asked, and you know the answer, go directly to it. Let me help you. If I ask you direction to Nigeria, please do not direct me to Australia. and thats exactly what you did above.

Lead me to Nigeria not drop me off in Australia.

olabowale:

Imhotep: Everything! If a question is asked, and you know the answer, go directly to it. Let me help you. If I ask you direction to Nigeria, please do not direct me to Australia. and thats exactly what you did above.

Lead me to Nigeria not drop me off in Australia.

Not so. Aquinas used the methods of Scholastic Theology to respond to the question.

Scholastic Theology believes in considering ALL possible points of view on an issue before making a definitive statement. For instance, the part that beings with[b] 'I Answer That'[/b] contains Aquinas' answer. The answer is loaded with philosophical and theological concepts from Plato, Aristotle, St. Augustine, the Bible, metaphysics, etc etc etc.

Therationa is not aware of all these, and so it will baffle him completely. He should have done his research well, this question was answered beautifully 800 years ago.

Imhotep, please tell me where in your Aquinas piece could I have the answer to Where did sin originate? Thank you.

olabowale:

Imhotep, please tell me where in your Aquinas piece could I have the answer to Where did sin originate? Thank you.

I have given you the official response that even the Pope and his cardinals will give to anybody. It is written in the most precise theological and philosophical language that will prevent misunderstanding. I will not dilute it any further.

This is why I say therationa's scholarship is poor. I do not mean to abuse him.

Just that he is not enlightened enough to be jumping at the amazing conclusions he posts on this forum. He should REALLY spend time educating himself.

@Imhotep: Forget Therationa. I am asking you, where did sin originate? Unfortunately, what Aquinas and the pope and all the christian pundits have said are not satisfactory to me. Let just say that I am not smart, so just answer the question, directly. At least to me.

olabowale:

@Imhotep: Forget Therationa. I am asking you, where did sin originate? Unfortunately, what Aquinas and the pope and all the christian pundits have said are not satisfactory to me. Let just say that I am not smart, so just answer the question, directly. At least to me.

Good job, Olabowale. Let us see the good scholar he claims to be.

The answer is staring you in the face. Go and study.

By the way, notice what Aquinas says about the biblical passage you mis-interpreted:

Objection: It would seem that the supreme good, God, is the cause of evil. For it is said (Isa. 45:5, 7): "I am the Lord, and there is no other God, forming the light, and creating darkness, making peace, and creating evil." And Amos 3:6, "Shall there be evil in a city, which the Lord hath not done?"

Reply ==> These passages refer to the evil of penalty, and not to the evil of fault.


Its saddening that a scholar like Aquinas (without electricity, internet, email iPod, etc etc) has clear answers to questions that baffle you in your modernity.

Please, please, go and study.

The Lord that you go to church and worship every Sunday[b] created evil[/b]

Horus:

The Lord that you go to church and worship every Sunday[b] created evil[/b]

Horus,

And??

Do you have a point?

Do you have a point?

It is in your bible

Horus:

It is in your bible

Horus,

Your point is in my bible? Huh?

Horus,

The bible says that God created evil and satan. I do not dispute this, of course God created everything in existence.

I am wondering what your point is about it?

Horus,

The bible says that God created evil and satan. I do not dispute this, of course God created everything in existence.
I am wondering what your point is about it?

This was just a statement that I quoted from your bible.
I was just giving a fact.

Imhotep: The question is where did sin originate? Did it Originate from God or where? What brought it to existence? Is it disobedience to rule, law or commandment that defines sin? Give an example of Sin and the first sin, if you know? Was thee a sin before the any from Adam, before he was created? What was the first sin in Mankind? All of these questions will hlp you to understand what it means when th question is, where did sin originate?

I think you have what could be called Christianiatis syndrome. You can never answer qestion, directly.

@Imhotep


Are you a coward?

olabowale:

Imhotep: The question is where did sin originate? Did it Originate from God or where? What brought it to existence? Is it disobedience to rule, law or commandment that defines sin? Give an example of Sin and the first sin, if you know? Was thee a sin before the any from Adam, before he was created? What was the first sin in Mankind? All of these questions will hlp you to understand what it means when th question is, where did sin originate?

I think you have what could be called Christianiatis syndrome. You can never answer qestion, directly.

You guys quoted (misquoted) some biblical passages to prove that God created evil. I have shown you an 800 year old answer that gives the correct interpretation of the texts.


---------------------------------------------
Let us now focus on angels: how is it that an angel can sin?

Sidenote -> an angel is a pure spirit that is free - possessing only intellect (a faculty with which it knows) and will (a faculty with which it loves/hates).

Answer -> an angel can sin because of the potentiality (this is a keyword in philosophy - be sure to get its real meaning) in its will. In other words, an angel, because it is free, can desire something that is not in conformity with the will of God - then it sins.

Evil, then, does not really exist. Evil is simply 'the lack of a due good'. In the same way that darkness is simply 'absence of light'

---------------------------------------------

Let me give a weak analogy -> if you have a son that turns out to be an armed robber, does it necessarily mean you (his father) taught him how to steal