musKeeto:
What's up? Been a while..

_
Wow! Seems everybody's missing me. I'm cool...not really! Life's been hectic, what with semester exams next week

babypipsy: Creator force, Creator God...how come?

Creator Force = Creator God.

In Paganism, a God Is a Spiritual Force.

ActiveMan: what happen when other religion where winning souls?
what happen to all the forces?

the concept of human killing is far away from it.

My friend, Paganism in NON-PROSELYTIZING.

you have to be BORN PAGAN or born into a tribe/ethnic group of full-blooded Pagan ancestry.

therefore for e.g., a Yoruba man, whether he be muslim, christian or atheist, is automatically a Pagan, whether he/she likes it or not.

why else do you think the Roman Cathlic church tried very hard and mostly suceeded in destroying the tribes of europe? similarily with south america.


when the world was entirely Pagan, (before monotheistic judaisism), there were no other religions. therefore there was no concept of conversion. However, it is easier for Pagans to switch between each other faiths since theunderlying concepts are the same,

though it wouldnt make much sense to do so, since each ethnic group is naturally endowed with its own version of Paganism.


now were did human killing come in?

PAGAN 9JA:

Ritual Killings: first of all what is sacrifice? Sacrifice is based on the balancing effect/ give-take concept. To earn money, you sacrifice your energy, to make a chair, you sacrifice a tree. in the same way, sacrifices are done because in order to get something from the Gods, one must give something in return. however, different needs have different sacrifices. sacrifices can be anything. it can be food, fruits, vegetables, animals, etc. As long as it is something of some value to you. now we Pagans do not differentiate between creations. If innocent animals are sacrificed, there is nothing wrong with humans being sacrificed. however, just as in the past when criminals, POWs ,etc., were sacrificed, so ,In my opinion, we can sacrifce criminals (i.e., murderers, ra.pists ,etc) to the Gods just as our ancestors did. This can be done in order to purify society and the souls of these criminals by doing them a favour of sending them directly to the Gods. Yes, this might help society.

however if modern society rejects it, so be it. we Pagans do not go by any particular book. as long as our basic concept remains unchanged. if humans are not acceptable for sacrifice, which is the case today in almost all Pagan religions, we cant stick to fruits and animals.

This is where the human killings comes, it also mean you can change the rules of the forces if the modern day society reject it?

you can also be a BORN CHRISTIAN OR MUSLIM and convert to any religion when you feel like.

why else do you think the Roman Cathlic church tried very hard and mostly suceeded in destroying the tribes of europe? similarily with south america.
SO Roman Cathlic church forces can win the PAGAN forces?

when the world was entirely Pagan, (before monotheistic judaisism), there were no other religions. therefore there was no concept of conversion. However, it is easier for Pagans to switch between each other faiths since theunderlying concepts are the same,

CHRISTIAN BELIEVE THEIR IS ONE GOD AND CHRISTIAN WORLD WIDE SERVE THEIR GOD IN ONE FAITH
MUSLIM BELIEVE THEIR IS ONE GOD AND MUSLIM WORLD WIDE ALSO SERVE THEIR GOD IN ONE FAITH

WHY MANY FAITH IN PAGANISM?

hmm.. I find all this extremely intriguing. As a student of philosophy and religion, ATR has been taught and argued about in my class for over 3yrs nw. Though,i am a bit dull on the aspect of paganism. I can only give an opinionated commentary on that.

I knw re-incarnation is a core issue in ATR, as most traditionalists believe in the "recycling" of the human soul.

But my question is, what exactly is being recycled? Is it the soul or the spirit? And what is the difference between the soul and spirit? Or are they one and the same?

ActiveMan:

This is where the human killings comes, it also mean you can change the rules of the forces if the modern day society reject it?

you can also be a BORN CHRISTIAN OR MUSLIM and convert to any religion when you feel like.


CHRISTIAN BELIEVE THEIR IS ONE GOD AND CHRISTIAN WORLD WIDE SERVE THEIR GOD IN ONE FAITH
MUSLIM BELIEVE THEIR IS ONE GOD AND MUSLIM WORLD WIDE ALSO SERVE THEIR GOD IN ONE FAITH

WHY MANY FAITH IN PAGANISM?

you cannot change the basic purpose and the concept. these are not exactly rules created by the forces. They are rules created in accordance by the said people to influence the forces. therefore practical changes can be done as long as it is on the grounds of similarity. it has been done many - a -times.

you dont understand. you can be born christian or muslim (becaue of your parents), but if you re tribal, then no matter what, you still have a connection to Pagan religon of your tribe, even if you have never practiced it. Tribal-Pagan Religion is a part of belonging to a tribe.

Pagans believe there are many Gods, because SPirituality is an infinite concept. therefore, THe Gods are infinite. ever-expanding, ever-growing. UNlimited. "1" is too definite a number.
just in the same way as there are many forms of maerial energies : light energy,sound energy, etc.., in the same way there are many forms of Spiritual ENergies.

now why there are many Pagan faiths. Because there are many tribes and ethnic groups.
We Pagans do not believe in common decent from adamn & eve, and that all humans are the same. NO! there is a reason why we are all divided into different groups. that was how it was intended to be!

now each tribe has its own way of thinking and conceptualizing things.The Chinese attribute CHinese features to the Spiritual Forces, while the same Gods are Igboized b the Igbos. however today, that balance has been removed , whereby, the jewish god, Yahweh and the arab God Allah are being forced upon people of different ethnc groups, who initially had their own personalized natural concept. This imbalance is what is creating all the strife and suffering.

lemmings: hmm.. I find all this extremely intriguing. As a student of philosophy and religion, ATR has been taught and argued about in my class for over 3yrs nw. Though,i am a bit dull on the aspect of paganism. I can only give an opinionated commentary on that.

I knw re-incarnation is a core issue in ATR, as most traditionalists believe in the "recycling" of the human soul.

But my question is, what exactly is being recycled? Is it the soul or the spirit? And what is the difference between the soul and spirit? Or are they one and the same?

ATR's are a part of the Greater concept of Paganism.

First of all, understand the fact that the Soul and the Spirit are both English words. therefore, they pertain to that language. in my language, we have 1 word for both.

Both, Soul and SPirit are Spiritual ENergies.

Soul = Inner/Personal SPiritual Energy.

SPirit = Exterior Spiritual Energy. not yours. Even includes higher SPiritual Ergies such as the Gods.

The Soul is recycled once its material attachment is removed. Different SPiritual Energies present in the Cosmos keep recycling , I suppose. more research required here. .

The bible is explicit in these matters. We should have no other gods....we should not bow or worship any graven image. We should honour The Lord our God....

These were the basics.

Idolatory worship will continue to exist as a source of comfort to those who desire it despite its obvious fallacies.

The very simple verse of john 3 vs 16 surmises it all. "....whosoever believes in Him will not perish...". Christ also said that 'He is the way, the truth and Life. Nobody comes to the Father except through Him'.

If your 'paganic theorems' support many gods, what basis does your belief now stand on as The God christians serve forbid associations with idols? Remember a house against itself cannot stand


You quoted so many different forms of idolatory worship with diverse cultures, practices and ideologies which in many situations conflict with other idol-belief. How does these add up?

In answering questions, please refrain from misquoting and twisting. Its either you ignore or you attempt.

Denn: The bible is explicit in these matters. We should have no other gods....we should not bow or worship any graven image. We should honour The Lord our God....

These were the basics.

Idolatory worship will continue to exist as a source of comfort to those who desire it despite its obvious fallacies.

The very simple verse of john 3 vs 16 surmises it all. "....whosoever believes in Him will not perish...". Christ also said that 'He is the way, the truth and Life. Nobody comes to the Father except through Him'.


If your 'paganic theorems' support many gods, what basis does your belief now stand on as The God christians serve forbid associations with idols? Remember a house against itself cannot stand

what the bible says is irrelevant to the people of Nigeria, and to this Niegrian forum. it holds no meaning to the descendants of Odudua, Nri/Arochukwu and Bayanjidda.

it is clear from the last quote that jus like the jealous god he served, jesus tried to create a monopoly ,as is evident from his words.

that jewish book is a material object, and like most books, it has gotten outdated. a book written and compiled by foreigners , has no business to dictate terms of law in this our sacred homeland.

You quoted so many different forms of idolatory worship with diverse cultures, practices and ideologies which in many situations conflict with other idol-belief. How does these add up?

In answering questions, please refrain from misquoting and twisting. Its either you ignore or you attempt.

To each people its own. Ive told so before that tribal groups and greater ethnic groups have their own spheres of life, which was how it was supposed to be. the basic concepts are the same in all PAgan religions. the rest are according to the characteristics of different groups and are personalized. keep to yourself. live and let live.

Denn: The bible is explicit in these matters. We should have no other gods....

If Yahweh was the only God, do you think he would put that rule?

If Man Utd were the only club in the world, would they warn their players against transfer? Will there be any need to?

Think..

PAGAN 9JA, Yoruba traditional history has it that Olodumare created the first human, a woman named Eni bi Eni (this one in our likeness) but commonly called Nini Binini (the name 'Nini' is mentioned in ancient texts from Mesopotamia as 'Nanna') and given as wife to Oduduwa. After a short while, more humans were created. this was way before Adamu/Adimu and Iya were created by the Redeemer. The names Adamu and Iya are what the oyinbo call Adam and Eve, and after many generations Oduduwa was born as one of their descendants, marking another phase in history.

This proves that we did not evolve.

For those who are interested, the so-called 'God-particle' that the oyinbo have been spending fortunes to find, building large underground labs and all that, is well described in Ifa, as are accounts of the flood during the time of Noah and his ark, but many of our people foolishly refer to anything and everything Ifa as demonic.

@Amor4ce: please could you divulge a bit more?

@musKeeto, you can read it at
http://ifatraining.weebly.com/library.html

The details of the flood and the survivors are not included - they are in other Ifa verses - but one can deduce therefrom that the oyinbo seriously mutated (insertions,deletions, etc), which accounts for the confusion in their religions.

PAGAN 9JA:



you cannot change the basic purpose and the concept. these are not exactly rules created by the forces. They are rules created in accordance by the said people to influence the forces. therefore practical changes can be done as long as it is on the grounds of similarity. it has been done many - a -times.

you dont understand. you can be born christian or muslim (becaue of your parents), but if you re tribal, then no matter what, you still have a connection to Pagan religon of your tribe, even if you have never practiced it. Tribal-Pagan Religion is a part of belonging to a tribe.

Pagans believe there are many Gods, because SPirituality is an infinite concept. therefore, THe Gods are infinite. ever-expanding, ever-growing. UNlimited. "1" is too definite a number.
just in the same way as there are many forms of maerial energies : light energy,sound energy, etc.., in the same way there are many forms of Spiritual ENergies.

now why there are many Pagan faiths. Because there are many tribes and ethnic groups.
We Pagans do not believe in common decent from adamn & eve, and that all humans are the same. NO! there is a reason why we are all divided into different groups. that was how it was intended to be!

now each tribe has its own way of thinking and conceptualizing things.The Chinese attribute CHinese features to the Spiritual Forces, while the same Gods are Igboized b the Igbos. however today, that balance has been removed , whereby, the jewish god, Yahweh and the arab God Allah are being forced upon people of different ethnc groups, who initially had their own personalized natural concept. This imbalance is what is creating all the strife and suffering.

nonsense
ENERGY AND GOD PURELY BASELESS

you said you can not be born christian or Muslim because your parent are but you can be born PAGAN because of your tribe?
i believe pagan religion was introduce to our tribe as christian and muslim religion were introduce.

you have many Gods with for each purpose, while muslim and christian worship towards 1 God.

muslim BELIEVE JESUS came to world while Christian too believe Mohammed SAW came to this word with records, where are your record?

all the 3 hen coming from heaven by Yoruba's are the greatest illusions of all time ,

so the world START FROM ILE-IFE?

SEE
why else do you think the Roman Cathlic church tried very hard and mostly suceeded in destroying the tribes of europe? similarily with south america.
SO Roman Cathlic church forces can win the PAGAN forces? you did not answer this

the story of the children of isreal and the Egyptian was 100% real

The Qur'an identifies books known as the Tawrat (Torah) given to Musa (Moses), the Zabur (Psalms) given to Daud (David), and the Injil (Gospel) given to Isa (Jesus) as genuine divine revelations brought by true messengers to the Jews and the followers of Ibrāhīm (Abraham).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_in_the_Bible
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_of_the_Bible
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam



AND ALSO WHAT IS THE VIEW OF PAGAN'S ON DIFFERENT LANGUAGE? WHY THE WORLD SPEAKS DIFFERENT LANGUAGE?

amor4ce: PAGAN 9JA, Yoruba traditional history has it that Olodumare created the first human, a woman named Eni bi Eni (this one in our likeness) but commonly called Nini Binini (the name 'Nini' is mentioned in ancient texts from Mesopotamia as 'Nanna') and given as wife to Oduduwa. After a short while, more humans were created. this was way before Adamu/Adimu and Iya were created by the Redeemer. The names Adamu and Iya are what the oyinbo call Adam and Eve, and after many generations Oduduwa was born as one of their descendants, marking another phase in history.

This proves that we did not evolve.

For those who are interested, the so-called 'God-particle' that the oyinbo have been spending fortunes to find, building large underground labs and all that, is well described in Ifa, as are accounts of the flood during the time of Noah and his ark, but many of our people foolishly refer to anything and everything Ifa as demonic.

please dont make the mistake of mixing christianity with Ifa Orisha. i already warned you before on this note, Amor4ace!

noah and his wooden boat has nothing to do in Ifa Orisha religion!

also the sory of Odudua is only that of the Creation of the Yoruba tribe, and not of the entire human population. This goes in line with all other Tribal Creation Mythologies. Tribal Lore and religion NEVER EVER take into consideration other tribes and humans in entirety. they only pertain to their own separate realms. as with most Pagan traditions, they mean something else/have hidden meanings and are not to be taken literally. IT is the gist that must be taken.

adamu and iya stories are borrwoed! it is a clear corruption of the xtian/muslim (more likely) version.

amor4ce: @musKeeto, you can read it at
http://ifatraining.weebly.com/library.html

The details of the flood and the survivors are not included - they are in other Ifa verses - but one can deduce therefrom that the oyinbo seriously mutated (insertions,deletions, etc), which accounts for the confusion in their religions.

i read it. you have clearly interpreted it wrongly.

THe dew refers to the primordial soup that was the state of the Earth during the dawn of this planet and before lifeforms existed.

webcityng:
nonsense
ENERGY AND GOD PURELY BASELESS

why ? explain yourself! it seems you are too used to the established concept of equationg God with man. no wonder you make such useless unSpiritual statements. The Gods are Spiritual Eergies/Spiritual Forces.

you said you can not be born christian or Muslim because your parent are but you can be born PAGAN because of your tribe?
i believe pagan religion was introduce to our tribe as christian and muslim religion were introduce.

what ia said was that if you are tribal, even if you do not profess Pagan religion, you still are Spiritually associated with it, because in Paganism , there is no conversion.
Pagan rleigions existed since the creation of tribes, just after evolution of the Greater Ethnic Groups. not ONE PAgan religion out of the millions that exist/existed, have man-founders!
so there was no question of introduction. it is in-built.

you have many Gods with for each purpose, while muslim and christian worship towards 1 God.

so? whats your point? do you think the Gods are a joke? do you think this is some all-in-one Deal?

this is mathematically and scientifically impossible to have only 1 God. There must be many different types of Spiritual Eergies, just as there are material energies. 1 is a definite number. either 0 or infinity. SPirituality is an infinite ever-expanding concept.

you cant have the forces limited into the closed box of 1.

muslim BELIEVE JESUS came to world while Christian too believe Mohammed SAW came to this word with records, where are your record?

1: muslims copied fromx xtians. THAT IS FACT>

2. jesus the man-GOd, was born quite recently, 2000 yrs ago. so what he came. The Pharaohs came to this world, ALexander came to this world, Sundiata KEita came to this world. so what is your point?

3. Paganism came before christianity or islam, so what these new religions say doesnt matter to us.

4. christians do not believe in your muhammad's teachings (except the parts he copied from them).

all the 3 hen coming from heaven by Yoruba's are the greatest illusions of all time ,

that like all Mythologies are not to be taken literally. even the Yorubas know that 3 hens didnt literally come. the 3 hens may symbolize something entirely different. all it takes is more research.

so the world START FROM ILE-IFE?

The YORUBA world started from Ile-Ife.

the story of the children of isreal and the Egyptian was 100% real

what children of israel? where is the proof?

The Qur'an identifies books known as the Tawrat (Torah) given to Musa (Moses), the Zabur (Psalms) given to Daud (David), and the Injil (Gospel) given to Isa (Jesus) as genuine divine revelations brought by true messengers to the Jews and the followers of Ibrāhīm (Abraham).

what i the proof of these identifications that these books were give by angels or God? this is not rue.

all the above men you quoted were authors who themselves wrote these books ad made you fools believe that they were given by divine revelation. tomoorow ill write-up a story and ill say Saarkin ALjinnu told me to write it. would you believe it? imsure there would be many goats who would believe it.

AND ALSO WHAT IS THE VIEW OF PAGAN'S ON DIFFERENT LANGUAGE? WHY THE WORLD SPEAKS DIFFERENT LANGUAGE?

BEcause there are many different tribes and ethnic groups.

PAGAN 9JA:



please dont make the mistake of mixing christianity with Ifa Orisha. i already warned you before on this note, Amor4ace!

noah and his wooden boat has nothing to do in Ifa Orisha religion!

also the sory of Odudua is only that of the Creation of the Yoruba tribe, and not of the entire human population. This goes in line with all other Tribal Creation Mythologies. Tribal Lore and religion NEVER EVER take into consideration other tribes and humans in entirety. they only pertain to their own separate realms. as with most Pagan traditions, they mean something else/have hidden meanings and are not to be taken literally. IT is the gist that must be taken.

adamu and iya stories are borrwoed! it is a clear corruption of the xtian/muslim (more likely) version.

I did not mix Ifa with plagiarism (christianity).
Yoruba history has it that Noah's ark settled on top of a hill called Oramfe which is one of the tourist attraction sites in Ile-Ife but which the white supremacists altered to Ararat. (http://www.assatashakur.org/forum/spirituality-connect-your-center/38993-ile-ife-biblical-garden-eden-situated-here.html)
The stories in Ifa of Odudua involve the history of the peoples of the earth and of the Yoruba in particular.
The Adamu/Adimu story is not borrowed. Haven't you heard of the Orisha Adamu play staged during the Eyo festival, and the story from Oyo about the origin of the title 'Ooni of Ife'? Likewise the story of 'Iya' is part of traditional Yoruba history. An european recorded it in a book about the Yoruba people which he published about 130 years ago though he did not link it to Eve.


@musKeeto, your people also have Ifa but because it is associated heavily with the Yoruba they refer to it as demonic. Since the creator, the redeemer, the spirit of purity, divinities and so on are mentioned therein, it means your people have been blaspheming terribly. Please ask yourself what the punishment is.

amor4ce: I did not mix Ifa with plagiarism (christianity).
Yoruba history has it that Noah's ark settled on top of a hill called Oramfe which is one of the tourist attraction sites in Ile-Ife but which the white supremacists altered to Ararat. (http://www.assatashakur.org/forum/spirituality-connect-your-center/38993-ile-ife-biblical-garden-eden-situated-here.html)
The stories in Ifa of Odudua involve the history of the peoples of the earth and of the Yoruba in particular.
The Adamu/Adimu story is not borrowed. Haven't you heard of the Orisha Adamu play staged during the Eyo festival, and the story from Oyo about the origin of the title 'Ooni of Ife'? Likewise the story of 'Iya' is part of traditional Yoruba history. An european recorded it in a book about the Yoruba people which he published about 130 years ago though he did not link it to Eve.


@musKeeto, your people also have Ifa but because it is associated heavily with the Yoruba they refer to it as demonic. Since the creator, the redeemer, the spirit of purity, divinities and so on are mentioned therein, it means your people have been blaspheming terribly. Please ask yourself what the punishment is.

ADAMU ORISHA IS NOT ADAM!

Adimu = one with a blocked nose.

it is a Spirit brought 350 years ago to Lagos for protection,etc.!

I like ifa religion a lot, it seems well organized.

^compared to others, yes. IT was more organized during the period of the Kingdoms.

Thank you Pagan9ja for creating this thread. Africans need to reclaim their spiritualities or at least know about them. Living in America I know of many white people with interest in ATR's. They are becoming priests and making a product out of ATR's. I don't trust them so this saddens me immensely.

My question: Because ATR's are ethnicity based religions why are outsiders allowed to be part of them?

You are welcome.

outsiders are not supposed to be part of them. It doesn't work like that.

primary reasons for this are ignorance and money.

PAGAN 9JA:
You are welcome.

outsiders are not supposed to be part of them. It doesn't work like that.

primary reasons for this are ignorance and money.

Everything in me told me this was true so it's nice to hear confirmation.

Another question: Sometimes my ancestors communicate with me through dreams. How can I increase the frequency of these dreams?

^

ok for that use halucenogens. you can use natural products like ibonga root, marijuana, etc. or take little alcohol before you sleep. chant regularly and if you have a shrine to your ancestors, make a sacrifice on it and pray on the spot and pour libation. If not then build a makeshift shrine. use incense or other such items. Try to concentrate on them more often.

Ancestors generally communicate more often with you when you are at your lowest state or when you feel down or about to undertake a great/difficult task.

The key is to concentrate you mindpower on your ancestors when you are awake more often. They will gradually visit you in your subconscious state. .

PAGAN 9JA:
^

ok for that use halucenogens. you can use natural products like ibonga root, marijuana, etc. or take little alcohol before you sleep. chant regularly and if you have a shrine to your ancestors, make a sacrifice on it and pray on the spot and pour libation. If not then build a makeshift shrine. use incense or other such items. Try to concentrate on them more often.

Ancestors generally communicate more often with you when you are at your lowest state or when you feel down or about to undertake a great/difficult task.

The key is to concentrate you mindpower on your ancestors when you are awake more often. They will gradually visit you in your subconscious state. .

Again thank you so much for this knowledge.

MamiWata:

Again thank you so much for this knowledge.

don't thank me on such matters bros. As a Pagan human/tribesman you must know these basic things. It is natural and is the will of the Gods.

Can you please explain the yoruba concept called 'Ori'

I don't know much about Ifa Orisha but I'll try. If you want to know more, contact the authorities on this site (ghostofsparta/Pastor AIO, etc.).

Ori is like the Supreme God Head. It is your own part of the Spiritual Energy that resides within you and which you can use to communicate and contact other external Spiritual Forces. Without understanding your own Ori, it is hard to understand the way of the Gods.

FOLYKAZE: Can you please explain the yoruba concept called 'Ori'

My (admittedly little) knowledge of it is that it is the 'spirit' of a person which has made its wishes (as to how it wants to live its life on earth) known to Eledumare. The Igbos call it 'chi', my people call it 'ehi'.

Uyi Iredia:

My (admittedly little) knowledge of it is that it is the 'spirit' of a person which has made its wishes (as to how it wants to live its life on earth) known to Eledumare. The Igbos call it 'chi', my people call it 'ehi'.

I thought "ehi" is the life force=soul, just like "emi" in Yoruba

How do u know the paganism you actually follow wasn't borrowed from another tribe or imposed on your people by a more powerful tribe ?