I was actually hoping you would look closely again; but since you rather had quoted from a source and run with it, not worries - let me give you the simple definition of the word Rabbi:

(1)  Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionary:

        G4461
             ραββι
             rhabbi
             hrab-bee'
             Of Hebrew origin [H7227] with pronominal suffix;
             my master, that is, Rabbi, as an official title of honor: - Master, Rabbi.

(2)  Pronunciation: \ˈra-ˌbī\
       Function: noun
       Etymology: Middle English, from Old English, from Late Latin,
       from Greek rhabbi, from Hebrew rabbī my master, from rabh master + -ī my
       http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rabbi

There are other sources one could find for an etymology of the word. However, even when some sources use the word teacher, they fail to observe something crucial - its derivatives. For those who hold the idea of teacher, what would they say about the endearing term "rabboni" (John 20:16) used by Mary at the resurrection in addressing the Lord?

Edit

In anycase, one may take teacher as the meaning of the word Rabbi - but that would only be in terms of ignoring its etymology. What is important at the end of the day is that almost all authorities agree on one thing: it is a term that is used as an official title of honour, and that is what the Lord pointed out - that such terms should not be used as official titles among the apostles.

ol. . . .Ok, let me post the full context:

Mathew 23:8-10

'You, however, must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers.  9 You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven.  10 Nor must you allow yourselves to be called teachers, for you have only one Teacher, the Christ.

What about these other commandments of Jesus? When you say “call no man father,” they must also argue that we cannot call any man teacher or rabbi, either.

1. Rabbi (master)
2. Father (father)
3. Teacher (teacher)

So, I guess we are not to give people the title of teacher, ee kwa?  Go back and review the passages I posted regarding the apostles referring to themselves as spiritual fathers. . . .and present your take on them.

@Omenuko,

Omenuko:

1. Rabbi (master)
2. Father (father)
3. Teacher (teacher)

So, I guess we are not to give people the title of teacher, ee kwa? Go back and review the passages I posted regarding the apostles referring to themselves as spiritual fathers. . . .and present your take on them.

Here we go again with circular arguments. Which one of the apostles referred went about with "spiritual father" as a title? Which one of them went about with the official title of POPE?

Let me even stretch it for you:

~ which one of the apostle[b]s[/b] went about with the official title of "pontiff"?

~ which one of the apostle[b]s[/b] went about with the official title of "Holy Father"?

~ which one of the apostle[b]s[/b] went about with the official title of "Your Holiness"?

These all are titles of the same office - the Pope. It would be interesting to see where any one of the apostles went about by any such titles.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Besides, when you made this statement:

Omenuko:

Go back and review the passages I posted regarding the apostles referring to themselves as spiritual fathers.

. . . it clearly shows you're just throwing words about carelessly without weighing their implications. You used the words "apostle[b]s[/b]" and "spiritual father[b]s[/b]" in the plural. One would have to wonder that if "father" is the same thing as "pope", then how many apostles referred to themselves as spiritual father[b]s[/b]/pope[b]s[/b] during the time of the apostles? I asked you earlier to go and find out how many bishops there were during the time of the apostles - and you smartly ducked that one forever. I knew sooner or later you would bring yourself back to the same agenda because it is unavoidable when you discuss issues like this.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Thirdly, it seems that you had conceded that Rabbi is MASTER and not teacher. Clap for you, Omenuko. I was hoping you would come back and argue to the contrary with the same weak assertions, and then I would have walked you through a systematic analysis of the term even from Catholic sources as well.

I know a lot of people today confuse concepts by throwing words carelessly about - and unfortunately, some of our English translators have been as careless in their versions of the Bible. Actually, depending on the context, some use the term "teacher" as the definition of RABBI, and we could bear with such; because even though they ignore its etymology, they also note that it is derived from the Hebrew (rabh) and therefore connotes the idea of a commanding officer such as a magister (master). So I could well bear with the explanation and extend a genial acceptance of your own point of view as long as you know that the verse in question was actually inferring 'master' instead of teacher. In anycase, the point is made: none of the apostles went about with an official title of MASTER or FATHER.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


There were 'teacher[b]s[/b]' (plural), but that was more a function than an official title among the apostles or early Christians. We find that this function (not official title) was recognized among several leaders (such as Barnabas, Simeon, Lucius, Manaen, and Saul (later Paul) in Acts 13:1). Others could mature in their developments to be teacher[b]s[/b] (Heb. 5:12); and again the term is used in the epistles not as an official title such as the Catholic Church now thinks of it, but rather as a function of the service that various men render in the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:28 and Eph. 4:11-12).

However, even if one were to argue that men were recognized as teacher[b]s[/b] in the early Church, it still does not negate what Christ taught in Matthew 23:8-10. Let me quote you again and then show how wrong you were:

Omenuko:

1. Rabbi (master)
2. Father (father)
3. Teacher (teacher)

Let's understand something you're missing here, dear Omenuko: the word in Matthew 23:8 & 10 is the same - not teacher but rather master (καθηγητής - kathēgētēs). What this means is simple, and the KJV puts it so well:

⁸But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master (καθηγητής),
even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

⁹And call no man your father upon the earth:
for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

¹⁰Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master (καθηγητής), even Christ.

Now, what we have here in Matthew 23:8-10 is:

1. Rabbi - Master (verse 8.)
2. father - Father (verse 9.)
3. master - Master (verse 10)

That is why I asked you to go back and check, dear Omenuko. I would not have asked you to do so if I had not checked it out myself. Oga, na "master" dey those verses 8 and 10, not teacher. None of the apostles went about with an official title of MASTER or FATHER. If e dey your own Bible, please show us whether it was Paul, Peter, James, or John that used those terms as official titles for themselves.

God bless you plenty.

@Omenuko,

Omenuko: ol. . . .Ok, let me post the full context:

Mathew 23:8-10

'You, however, must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. 9 You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor must you allow yourselves to be called teachers, for you have only one Teacher, the Christ.

Wrong. Matthew 23:8-10 reads:

[8] But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ;
and all ye are brethren.

[9] And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father,
which is in heaven.

[10] Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

The word teacher is a wrong translation in verse 10, and I've shown you why above.

Omenuko:
What about these other commandments of Jesus? When you say “call no man father,”

Still holds - Jesus warned against such, and none of the apostles went about with an official title of "Father".

Omenuko:
they must also argue that we cannot call any man teacher or rabbi, either.

Christ never said no man could be called a 'teacher', please go and see.

Omenuko:

1. Rabbi (master)
2. Father (father)
3. Teacher (teacher)

Wrong. The correct order is:

1. Rabbi - Master (verse 8.)
2. father - Father (verse 9.)
3. master - Master (verse 10)

The words in verse 10 are master and Master - and I've shown this above.

Omenuko:

So, I guess we are not to give people the title of teacher, ee kwa?

Christ never said so; nor did I say so either. The Bible shows that the Lord gave the gift of teachers to the Body of Christ (Ephesians 4:11); He did not say that men are not teachers, so your argument here is mute.

Omenuko:

Go back and review the passages I posted regarding the apostles referring to themselves as spiritual father[b]s[/b]. . . .and present your take on them.

I have done so, and found that none of the apostles went about with an official title of Father, Pope, Pontiff, or Your Holiness. Spiritual father[b]s[/b] (plural), if used as an official title at all would indicate that there were more than one Pope in Peter's day - but none of them ever used such as a title.

Shalom.

@Omenuko,

Edited:

pilgrim.1:

Omenuko link=topic=116335.msg2865713#msg2865713 date=1222620703:

Does your translation have master instead of teacher?

Yes, my translation says MASTER and not teacher. The word teacher is not what was meant by the Greek term Rabbi. Can I then take it that your explanation is wrong?

pilgrim.1:

Omenuko,

Please check again. You're wrong.

I beg your pardon, I actually made a mix up in John 1:38 - you're right, the Greek term used in the original in that verse is "teacher" (διδάσκαλος - didaskalos) and not master (καθηγητής - kathēgētēs). In humility, it were better for me to own up to the truth of God's Word than push my own agenda (". . and lie not against the truth" - James 3:14).

However, in Matthew 23:8-10, the word twice used there is "master" (καθηγητής - kathēgētēs) and not "teacher" (διδάσκαλος - didaskalos).

So, as it is, I started out by pointing that in Matthew 23:9, the Lord taught that we should call no man on earth "father", which is clear in context that such a term is not to be taken as an official title among Christians. However, you wanted us to look at all three verses of that chapter - that is, 8, 9, and 10 of Matthew 23. That being so, the words used are precisely as I have demonstrated earlier:

                  ⁸[/b]But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your [b]Master (καθηγητής),
                  even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

                  ⁹[/b]And call no man your [b]father upon the earth:
                  for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

                  ¹⁰[/b]Neither be ye called [b]masters (καθηγητής):  for one is your Master (καθηγητής), even Christ.

Well, as you can see, I started out with Matthew 23 and the case still stands: the words there are masters and Master (καθηγητής) - same word in Greek; not teacher. There are teachers in the Body of Christ; but only one is Master - the Lord Jesus Christ:

           Matt. 23:10  -  ‘Neither be ye called masters (καθηγητής):
                                   for one is your Master (καθηγητής), even Christ.’

It is on that note that I made the point that we should be careful to not ascribe titles to men which were not meant to be so ascribed.

Blessings.

In humility, it were better to own up to the truth of God's word than push my own agenda. So, as it is, I started out by pointing that in Matthew 23:9, the Lord taught that we should call no man on earth "father", which is clear in context that such a term is not to be taken as an official title among Christians. However, you wanted us to look at all three verses of that chapter - that is, 8, 9, and 10 of Matthew 23. That being so, the words used are precisely as I have demonstrated earlier:

                  8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master (καθηγητής),
                  even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

                  9And call no man your father upon the earth:
                  for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

                  10Neither be ye called masters (καθηγητής):  for one is your Master (καθηγητής), even Christ.

Any you say we catholics are twisting God's word.  So in your bible verse ten above has 'master' and not teacher?  Anyway, thats beside the point.  What I'm trying to get you to look at are Jesus' other commandments and him telling us to not call one another rabbi, father, and teacher.  You say we shouldn't give people the title of father.  Pilgrim.1 you seem like a reasonable person. . . .Are you also saying we shouldn't give people the title of teacher, rabbi or of master. . . .my friend, what does 'Oga' mean.  In Igbo we say 'Nna m ukwu' (boss/master).  You are stretching this too much.  You are puting your own. . . .should I say it. . . .twist to the passage.  Reading stuff into the passage that is not there. You posted verse 9 without posting Jesus' other commandments (in verse 8 and 10) to show something that was not there.  Hoping that nobody would go and read it for themselves. All this stuff are from anti-catholic websites. Shame, shame. . . . Another question, you still did not look at those verses I posted.  We have Paul and Peter (i think) referring to themselves as fathers of many of the early christians.  In those same verses they are calling the followers of christ 'my children'.  What were they doing?

There were 'teachers' (plural), but that was more a function than an official title among the apostles or early Christians. We find that this function (not official title) was recognized among several leaders (such as Barnabas, Simeon, Lucius, Manaen, and Saul (later Paul) in Acts 13:1). Others could mature in their developments to be teachers (Heb. 5:12); and again the term is used in the epistles not as an official title such as the Catholic Church now thinks of it, but rather as a function of the service that various men render in the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:28 and Eph. 4:11-12).

Your hatred for the catholic church is too much. Jesus says not to call one another 'rabbi', 'father', 'teacher'. Look at the way you are trying to twist your way into adding your interpretation into the scriptures.

Dear Omenuko,

How body?

Omenuko:

Your hatred for the catholic church is too much. Jesus says not to call one another 'rabbi', 'father', 'teacher'. Look at the way you are trying to twist your way into adding your interpretation into the scriptures.

First, I do not hate anybody. If pointing you to what Scripture says is so painful to be borne with, let me know, and I would oblige you to remain absolutely ignorant of what the same Scripture says. But to assume that my telling you the truth is tantamount to hating anybody. . . please carefully hold your tongue.

Second, I have not twisted anything presented in those verses. Where I made a mistake in John 1:38, I had the dignity to own up and not push my own agenda. If, on the other hand, Matthew 23:8-10 uses the word MASTER and not teacher, why should I be twisting it to say otherwise what it does not say? If you know something else that those verses said that I twisted, please simply state it so and let us all learn.

Omenuko:

Any you say we catholics are twisting God's word. So in your bible verse ten above has 'master' and not teacher?

Precisely.

Omenuko:

Anyway, thats beside the point.

Omenuko, if it says anything other than what I pointed, please share. Don't just sweep it under the carpet and continue to hold heated feelings where none exists.

Omenuko:

What I'm trying to get you to look at are Jesus' other commandments and him telling us to not call one another rabbi, father, and teacher.

In Matthew 23, the Lord Jesus clearly taught that:

~ we should not call anyone RABBI - v. 8

~ we should not call anyone FATHER - v.9

~ we should not call anyone MASTER - v. 10

He did not teach that there are no TEACHERS. Please check again.

Omenuko:

You say we shouldn't give people the title of father. Pilgrim.1 you seem like a reasonable person. . . .Are you also saying we shouldn't give people the title of teacher, rabbi or of master.

Phew - go and check again: the word TEACHER was not used in the text of Matthew 23:8-10.

Omenuko:

. . .my friend, what does 'Oga' mean. In Igbo we say 'Nna m ukwu' (boss/master). You are stretching this too much.

I did not use the term 'oga' as a title for you, lol. So who's doing the stretching here? I used it in anticipation that you would predictably be using the same tactics I have found many Catholics use when faced with the issue of Matthew 23:8-10. They will resort to "my language says we use oga and Nna m ukwu" blah-blah-blah, etc. I simply ask them if that is what their popes are called. Result? I get insulted like I called for the abolition of the Vatican! Here, wake up: we're dealing with official titles, bros - I have pointed it out that you have often referred to TITLE. Haba!

Omenuko:

You are puting your own. . . .should I say it. . . .twist to the passage.

Sorry, I did not write the Greek manuscripts of the Bible in verses 8-10 of Matthew 23. If you find anything other than what I stated there, please show us the correct Greek terms and their meaning in English.

Omenuko:

Reading stuff into the passage that is not there.

In Matthew 23:8-10, please show us where you find the term διδάσκαλος. If it is there, please show us. On the other hand, I pointed out that the word used there was "master" (καθηγητής - kathēgētēs) - if you don't find it there, please tell us what is actually there.

Omenuko:

You posted verse 9 without posting Jesus' other commandments (in verse 8 and 10) to show something that was not there.

WHY are you making this pitiful accusations where you pretended that I did not post them? Here again:

pilgrim.1:


⁸[/b]But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your [b]Master (καθηγητής),
even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

⁹[/b]And call no man your [b]father upon the earth:
for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

¹⁰[/b]Neither be ye called [b]masters (καθηγητής): for one is your Master (καθηγητής), even Christ.

. . . did I not quote verses 8 and 10 there? And did you not quote the same verses 8, 9 and 10 when you quoted me? What is this game you're whipping up here?

Omenuko:

Hoping that nobody would go and read it for themselves.

Stop whinging. Because I don't want anyone to be confused, I quoted all the verses. This is beyond our age, Omenuko.

Omenuko:

All this stuff are from anti-catholic websites.

So, the Bible quoted for you is an anti-Catholic website? You simply have no genuine substance to your debate and arguments. So after this, I'll just leave you to keep making noise. One can no longer reason with people who refuse to open their own Bibles and yet close their eyes to hoot this excuse of "anti-Catholic" websites. Haba!

Omenuko:

Shame, shame. . . .

Thank you. Thank you. The verses are there, and they are not websites!

Omenuko:

Another question, you still did not look at those verses I posted.

Phew! What have I examined in detail, Omenuko?

Omenuko:

We have Paul and Peter (i think) referring to themselves as father[b]s[/b] of many of the early christians. In those same verses they are calling the followers of christ 'my children'. What were they doing?

They were not calling themselves POPES! How many popes were going about in early Christianity?

@Omenuko,

Let me help you clear the case about RABBI.

The reason why Matthew 23:8-10 is understood to be MASTER (καθηγητής - kathēgētēs) and not "teacher" are:


(1) The Etymology of the word RABBI
This word does not stand on its own, nor is it a Greek term without roots preceding it. Scholarly sources tell us that its root rabh predates the Greek and is an Hebrew term meaning “master”, while the “i” points to the pronoun “my” (hence, ‘my master’).

(2) The Derivatives of the word RABBI
Also, I already shared that the derivative of the word would present a problem for those who hold the ‘teacher’ definition in Matthew 23:8 & 10; because when you ask what the endearing term RABBONI means, you find the same interpreters coming back to the word ‘MASTER’. This would only indicate a lack of consistency and purpose in such versions criss-crossing the terms.

(3) The Application of the word RABBI
In its practical application, the word Rabbi is an official title of honour, and from the texts gathered so far, we know that only one is properly qualified in honour of that term in the Christian faith – the Lord Jesus Christ, as is evident in that same verse:

           Matt. 23:10  -  ‘Neither be ye called masters (καθηγητής - kathēgētēs):
                                         for one is your Master (καθηγητής - kathēgētēs), even Christ.’

That verse says clearly that ONLY ONE is our MASTER - the Lord Jesus Christ.
           

(4) Consistency in Use of the word RABBI
The 4th problem is that those favouring the idea of merely ‘teacher’ face the difficulty of consistency in its use. For example, in Matthew 23 we find such versions as the NIV use the term ‘master’ in verse 8 and then switch back to ‘teacher’ in verse 10 for the same Greek word; and the question would be: why this inconsistency?

Here are the verses 8 to 10 in Matthew 23 AGAIN in NIV~~

             ‘[8]"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have
              only one Master and you are all brothers. [9]And do not call
              anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is
              in heaven. [10]Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have
              one Teacher, the Christ.’ ~~ [NIV]

Both ‘master’ and ‘teacher’ are the same Greek word (καθηγητής - kathēgētēs) in those verses; so why the inconsistency of switching between MASTER and TEACHER where the Greek term is the same?!? Meanwhile, there is no such word as "teacher" (διδάσκαλος) in Matthew 23:8-10. Go and do some simple checking and let your heart admit to God's truth.


(5) The case of the RCC versions of the Bible
The Vulgate and the Douay Rheims Bible (DRB, 1582 and 1899) are two early Catholic versions of the Bible which use the word ‘master’ (instead of ‘teacher’) in Matthew 23:8-10. Although the more recent and revised Catholic versions use the word ‘teacher’ in that verse, it is instructive that early translators used master in keeping with the etymology of Rabbi – and this was why I asked you earlier to check again, Omenuko. Let me quote that verse as given in those two versions:

            8 But be not you called Rabbi. For one is your master;
            and all you are brethren. 9 And call none your father
            upon earth; for one is your father, who is in heaven.
           10 Neither be ye called masters; for one is your master, Christ.
                            ~~ [DRB, 1582 and 1899]

            8 vos autem nolite vocari rabbi unus enim est magister
            vester omnes autem vos fratres estis 9 et patrem nolite
            vocare vobis super terram unus enim est Pater vester qui
            in caelis est 10 nec vocemini magistri quia magister vester
            unus est Christus       ~~ [Latin Vulgate]

What is the meaning of the latin word ‘magister’?

MAGISTER
Noun
1. Master; sir; -- a title of the Middle Ages, given to a person in authority, or to one having a license from a university to teach philosophy and the liberal arts.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

Date "MAGISTER" was first used in popular English literature: sometime before 1509. (references)

Etymology: Magister \Ma*gis"ter\, noun. [Latin expression See Master.]. (Websters 1913)

source: http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/Ma/Magister.html (not an anti-Catholic website).

WHY is it that even the Catholic Douay Rheims and the Latin Vulgate recognize that the word in Matthew 23:8 & 10 is MASTER?!?


Dear Omenuko, I think it helps one's heart to carefully go and check the truth out. It is actauly a loss to your cause if you keep peddling ignorance and pretending not to notice what Matthew 23:8-10 is saying. If those verses were not using the Greek terms for MASTER, please kindly furnish us with the terms used there.

If this is going to just be a wasted exercise chasing the wind because the truth is too much to digest, I bid you best wishes and may only come back where you say anything of interest. If you can't find the alternative word in those verses, please don't waste internet resources arguing aimlessly.

Regards.

@pilgrim.1

The Pope (from Latin: "papa" or "father" from Greek πάπας, pápas, "papa", originally written πάππας, páppas, as in Odyssey VI.57; Papa in Italian) is the Bishop of Rome, the leader of the Roman Catholic Church and head of state of Vatican City. The current (265th) pope is Pope Benedict XVI, who was elected April 19, 2005 in papal conclave.

The office of the pope is called the Papacy; his ecclesiastical jurisdiction is called the "Holy See" (Sancta Sedes in Latin) or "Apostolic See" (the latter on the basis that both [size=14pt]St. Peter and St. Paul[/size] were martyred at Rome).

In addition to his spiritual role, the pope is Head of State of the independent sovereign state of the Vatican City, a city-state entirely enclaved by the city of Rome.

MAGISTER
Noun
1. Master; sir; -- a title of the Middle Ages, given to a person in authority, or to one having a license from a university to teach philosophy and the liberal arts.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

Date "MAGISTER" was first used in popular English literature: sometime before 1509. (references)

Etymology: Magister \Ma*gis"ter\, noun. [Latin expression See Master.]. (Websters 1913)

Did you not read the above. . . .So when I address someone as Mr. such and such.  Am I not giving them the title of Master.  The root of the word 'Mister' is derived from the same word as 'Magister'.  Go and look up the etimology of the word mister.  According to pilgrim.1 we have to stop addressing people as mister because we are giving them the title of 'master'.

Here are the verses 8 to 10 in Matthew 23 AGAIN in NIV~~

             ‘[8]"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have
              only one Master and you are all brothers. [9]And do not call
              anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is
              in heaven. [10]Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have
              one Teacher, the Christ.’   ~~ [NIV]

Both ‘master’ and ‘teacher’ are the same Greek word (καθηγητής - kathēgētēs) in those verses; so why the inconsistency of switching between MASTER and TEACHER where the Greek term is the same?!? Meanwhile, there is no such word as "teacher" (διδάσκαλος) in Matthew 23:8-10. Go and do some simple checking and let your heart admit to God's truth.

So, now the cat is out of the bag.  The NIV and most other bibles translates it as the above.  I looked up that greek word also and this is what it means:

καθηγητης  noun - nominative singular masculine
kathegetes  kath-ayg-ay-tace':  a guide, i.e. (figuratively) a teacher -- master.

So, for those who are reading this judge for yourselves who is twisting what.  Most bibles translate that as teacher and the meaning of the word 'Magister' (from the Catholic Douay Rheims and the Latin Vulgate) also can mean teacher or guide.  You seem to only want to use that word in the sense of master.  And this argument of official and unofficial title stuff is you blowing hot air.  I posted what the word Pope means and told you why we call him the Pope.  Where in those passages does it say we can call people father but not officially (i guess this is according to Pope pilgrim.1)?  If I have an adopted son are you telling me that he cannot officially call me father even though I'm not his biological father?  Nonsense. . . .that child would be my son and I his father. . . .officially and unofficially. 

I remember singing this song when I was a child:  'Father Abraham had many sons and many sons had father Abraham.  I am one of them and so are you.  So lets just praise the Lord (well I think thats how it goes).  So according to the all and wise pilgrim.1 this song is wrong, abi?  And look at the passages below.  The below passages from the bible show how we (catholics) view our pastors.

1 Corinthians 4:15

15 for even though you might have ten thousand slaves to look after you in Christ, you still have no more than one father, and[b] it was I who fathered you in Christ Jesus[/b], by the gospel.

Philemon 1:10

10 I am appealing to you for a child of mine, whose father I became [/b]while wearing these chains: I mean Onesimus.

Mathew 3:9

9 and do not presume to tell yourselves, "[b]We have Abraham as our father," because, I tell you, God can raise children for Abraham from these stones.

@Omenuko,

Omenuko:

Did you not read the above. . . .So when I address someone as Mr. such and such. Am I not giving them the title of Master.

The title Mr. does not apply to Church offices, so please don't play this childish games.

Omenuko:

The root of the word 'Mister' is derived from the same word as 'Magister'.

Does not mean therefore that the warning in Matthew 23:8 & 10 are thereby negated. Master in ecclesiastical circles is not mister.

Omenuko:

Go and look up the etimology of the word mister.

I have; and in no instance was anyone gullible enough to use that as a translation for RABBI.

Omenuko:

According to pilgrim.1 we have to stop addressing people as mister because we are giving them the title of 'master'.

Omenuko, please where did I say so? Can you be grown up enough to quote me as to where I said so?

Omenuko:

So, now the cat is out of the bag. The NIV and most other bibles translates it as the above. I looked up that greek word also and this is what it means:

καθηγητης noun - nominative singular masculine
kathegetes kath-ayg-ay-tace': a guide, i.e. (figuratively) a teacher -- master.

I said so before: [list][list]

pilgrim.1]some use the term "teacher" as the definition of RABBI, and we could bear with such; because even though they ignore its etymology, they also note that it is derived from the Hebrew (rabh) and therefore connotes the idea of a commanding officer such as a magister (master). So I could well bear with the explanation and extend a genial acceptance of your own point of view as long as you know that the verse in question was actually inferring 'master' instead of teacher.[/quote][/list][/list]

Please understand - "καθηγητης" is "master" in Greek, not "teacher". There is another Greek word for teacher - διδάσκαλος, and it does not mean that same as "master".

So here: they are not the same and cannot be confused simply because the NIV is confusing them.

"καθηγητης" - Master
"διδάσκαλος" - Teacher.

As far as ecclesiatical authority is concerned, Christ in Matthew 23:8 & 10 said we should not address men as MASTER; but he did not say we should not address men as teacher. The confusion for many is that they are forcing the word teacher into Matthew 23:10 and using that as an excuse to teach that men can therefore be called FATHER! This roundabout excuse is still missing the point - because Christ never said what these men are teaching - and that is why they continue to switch the actual terms and insert "teacher" in Matthew 23:10 where the actual word is MASTER.

Do not confuse "καθηγητης" for "διδάσκαλος" - they are not the same!


[quote author=Omenuko:

So, for those who are reading this judge for yourselves who is twisting what.

I'm sure they can see that "καθηγητης" is not "διδάσκαλος"; and you need to go sort out yourself on which word was used in Matthew 23:10.

Omenuko:

Most bibles translate that as teacher and the meaning of the word 'Magister' (from the Catholic Douay Rheims and the Latin Vulgate) also can mean teacher or guide.

I noted that most people mistranslate these words because they ignore the etymology of RABBI. I have said so before. . . I have said so repeatedly. . . I have demonstrated it in 4 clear outlines. I don't see where you took the time to show where they dealt with it and showed you to correct word. You seem to be running away with weak ideas and sweating to force your presumptions into a vacant canvass. I implore you - go back and see what Greek term was used in Matthew 23:10 - and call that "teacher" if it helps your conscience. Afterwards, I'll come back and ask you further questions that will help you see the point.

Omenuko:

You seem to only want to use that word in the sense of master.

Nope, I clearly showed where either word occur and it's not in my place to forcefully change them as the NIV did.

Omenuko:

And this argument of official and unofficial title stuff is you blowing hot air.

Excuse me? Who between us used the word "TITLE" at first? You make me laugh!

Omenuko:

I posted what the word Pope means and told you why we call him the Pope.

And I showed you clearly why none of the apostles went about with the appellation/title/designation of POPE.

Omenuko:

Where in those passages does it say we can call people father but not officially (i guess this is according to Pope pilgrim.1)?

If it please you: where in that verse did it say we can call people FATHER or POPE?

Omenuko:

If I have an adopted son are you telling me that he cannot officially call me father even though I'm not his biological father?

If you can show me how that means the same thing as negating what Christ said in Matthew 23:9, then please do. You're funny - you should have asked and argued this issue with Christ Himself who clearly said "call NO MAN father" in that verse. You failed to see its meaning and just making noise to force yourself further with this issue. No wahala, I like to keep people like you sweating until you exhaust yourself on your weak arguments.

Omenuko:

Nonsense. . . .that child would be my son and I his father. . . .officially and unofficially.

Good. Go apply for an official and unofficial POPE in the Vatican.

Omenuko:

I remember singing this song when I was a child: 'Father Abraham had many sons and many sons had father Abraham. I am one of them and so are you. So lets just praise the Lord (well I think thats how it goes). So according to the all and wise pilgrim.1 this song is wrong, abi?

I have not passed myself as ALL and WISE, I beg your pardon. This panic display is showing that you're frantic and have nothing to your argument - for the simple reason that you have not carefully checked the context; nor are you interested in what Christ taught in Matthew 23 thereto.

Omenuko:

And look at the passages below. The below passages from the bible show how we (catholics) view our pastors.

1 Corinthians 4:15
Philemon 1:10
Mathew 3:9

Please where in any one of those verse is the word POPE?!?

Please where in any one of those verse is the word POPE?!?

let me post it again:

The Pope (from Latin: [size=15pt]"papa" or "father" from Greek πάπας, pápas, "papa", originally written πάππας, páppas,[/size] as in Odyssey VI.57; Papa in Italian) is the Bishop of Rome, the leader of the Roman Catholic Church and head of state of Vatican City. The current (265th) pope is Pope Benedict XVI, who was elected April 19, 2005 in papal conclave.

The office of the pope is called the Papacy; his ecclesiastical jurisdiction is called the "Holy See" (Sancta Sedes in Latin) or "Apostolic See" (the latter on the basis that both St. Peter and St. Paul were martyred at Rome).

In addition to his spiritual role, the pope is Head of State of the independent sovereign state of the Vatican City, a city-state entirely enclaved by the city of Rome.

Please understand - "καθηγητης" is "master" in Greek, not "teacher". There is another Greek word for teacher - διδάσκαλος, and it does not mean that same as "master".

So here: they are not the same and cannot be confused simply because the NIV is confusing them.

            "καθηγητης"       -    Master
            "διδάσκαλος"      -    Teacher.

As far as ecclesiatical authority is concerned, Christ in Matthew 23:8 & 10 said we should not address men as MASTER; but he did not say we should not address men as teacher. The confusion for many is that they are forcing the word teacher into Matthew 23:10 and using that as an excuse to teach that men can therefore be called FATHER! This roundabout excuse is still missing the point - because Christ never said what these men are teaching - and that is why they continue to switch the actual terms and insert "teacher" in Matthew 23:10 where the actual word is MASTER.

Do not confuse "καθηγητης"  for  "διδάσκαλος" - they are not the same!

My friends. . . .for those who are still reading this, go and look up the καθηγητης for yourselves and see who is fooling who.  I never said καθηγητης cannot mean master.  What I am saying is that καθηγητης can also mean teacher. . . .that's why many bibles translates it as such.

I noted that most people mistranslate these words because they ignore the etymology of RABBI. I have said so before. . . I have said so repeatedly. . . I have demonstrated it in 4 clear outlines. I don't see where you took the time to show where they dealt with it and showed you to correct word. You seem to be running away with weak ideas and sweating to force your presumptions into a vacant canvass. I implore you - go back and see what Greek term was used in Matthew 23:10 - and call that "teacher" if it helps your conscience. Afterwards, I'll come back and ask you further questions that will help you see the point.

As long as you know (pilgrim.1) that most people (scholars) do not favor your view point; this is settled.

Excuse me? Who between us used the word "TITLE" at first? You make me laugh! Cheesy

I'm not understanding you. . . .I told you way back when that we (catholics) call our pasters 'father', because they are our spiritual fathers in Christ.  You then brought up the Pope.  I gave you the meaning of the word 'Pope' and why we use the term 'Pope'.  You then came back and said Mathew 23:9 forbids us from calling someone father in an official way.  Ok, where does the bible forbid us from calling our pastors father in an official way.  I then posted scripture for you of Paul calling himself the spiritual father of one of his followers, you then posted:

Please where in any one of those verse is the word POPE?!?

Again, the term 'Pope' means 'father' (see above).

@Omenuko,

Omenuko:

let me post it again:

I asked you where any one of the apostles went about with the title of POPE, I haven't seen you quote the verses. Do you mind to do so, please? Thank you.

Omenuko:

My friends. . . .for those who are still reading this, go and look up the καθηγητης for yourselves and see who is fooling who.

I haven't fooled anyone to go check which word was used in Matthew 23:10. You're so frantic to force the Greek word διδάσκαλος (didaskalos) into that verse when it is not there. Just because the NIV and several versions mistranslate a whole lot of verses does not mean we should keep perpetuating their error. Ask, and I'll give you a few more and see if you can conscienciously defend such errors.

Omenuko:

I never said καθηγητης cannot mean master.  What I am saying is that καθηγητης can also mean teacher. . . .that's why many bibles translates it as such.

Those who force that idea of "teacher" are wrong - because they ignore what the texts say.

Omenuko:

As long as you know (pilgrim.1) that most people (scholars) do not favor your view point; this is settled.

I wasn't clamouring for popularity, if that is such a high prize for you. "Most scholars" would actually know that Matthew 23:10 translates that word as MASTER. Should I show you how many scholars did so? Here are a few versions of Matthew 23:10 ~~

              (1) ALT - Analytical Literal Translation
             "Neither shall you* be called 'masters,' for one is your* Master-the Christ."

              (2) ASV - American Standard Version
             " Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, even the Christ."

              (3) BB - Bishops Bible, 1568
             "Neither be ye called maisters: for one is your maister [euen] Christe"

              (4) DRB - Douay Rheims Bible, 1899
              "Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, Christ."

              (5) KJV - King James Version
              "Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."

              (6) RV - Revised Version
              "Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, even the Christ."

              (7) NCV - New Century Version
              "And you should not be called 'Master,' because you have only one Master, the Christ."

              (8.) HCSB - Holman Christian Standard Bible
              "And do not be called masters either, because you have one Master, the Messiah"

               (9) WNT - Wycliffe New Testament
               "Neither be ye called masters, for one is your master, Christ"

               (10) WEB - Worldwide English Bible
               "People should not call you "Master". You have one Master. He is the Christ."

               (11) TNT - Tyndale New Testament, 1525
               "Be not called masters for there is but one youre master and he is Christ."

I could give you many more - and all the above all used "master" instead of teacher because they know they are not the same, nor did they try to confuse the terms.

Omenuko:

I'm not understanding you. . . .I told you way back when that we (catholics) call our pasters 'father', because they are our spiritual fathers in Christ.  You then brought up the Pope.  I gave you the meaning of the word 'Pope' and why we use the term 'Pope'.  You then came back and said Mathew 23:9 forbids us from calling someone father in an official way.  Ok, where does the bible forbid us from calling our pastors father in an official way.  I then posted scripture for you of Paul calling himself the spiritual father of one of his followers, you then posted:

Again, the term 'Pope' means 'father' (see above).

Understanding me is easy, if you cared. None of the apostles went about with the title of POPE.

More than that, if you assumed they did, I simply asked how many POPES were in the churches during the apostle Peter's day - you have always ducked that one and never thought it wise to offer an answer.

Next, I tried to help you see that Matthew 23:8-10 reminds us what the Lord said, and that is when you frantically starting running to non-Catholic websites to cut and paste. If I showed you matters from any website at all, you would hola back with your grand excuse that "they are ANTI-Catholic websites"!! You are just such a laugh! Well done this afternoon!

Just my casual observation, as a layman and a beginning student of religion:

So, as it is, I started out by pointing that in Matthew 23:9, the Lord taught that we should call no man on earth "father", which is clear in context that such a term is not to be taken as an official title among Christians.

As I read the summation of that verse, Matt 23 Verse, as it is presented above, I will take it that Jesus was the speaker. But his instruction was that "NO MAN," (any male) on earth, should be called "FATHER." If we have to follow it, what was Joseph the Capenter to him? What do we humans, sons and daughters of our mothers call the men who sired us? Are they not our fathers? Are we, all of us, Christians and nonchristians and oh yes, Jesus himself guilty of this direct injusction from the lips of "Master" Jesus? This is an impossible commandment to obey, if you are a daughter or a son of a man still on earth! Fortunately, my father had long passed. May Allah the Almight make him one of the people of Jannah! Amin. So to all the believing males and females (fathers and mothers), who had passed on as Muslims. Amin.

However, you wanted us to look at all three verses of that chapter - that is, 8, 9, and 10 of Matthew 23. That being so, the words used are precisely as I have demonstrated earlier:

                 8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master (καθηγητής),
                even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

The word "even" throws a dart that stuck on that sentence. It is not clear, what the meaning is clearly. As I read it, it is leading me to believe that but arent you (many from among the people) called Rabbi? And then begin to say that there is a single Master. Even Christ and you (the people) are brethren (brethren as same people; homogenous in culture and language). You will see with better clarity as you read the verse that speaks about God, just below.

                 9And call no man your father upon the earth:
                 for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Here, you will see that the language of instruction is very clear. Forget for a moment of father, that I disagree with. It is very clear, however there could not be a dart thrown on this verse, as the other one above that starts out with a muddled  effect as one read it. There is no "Even" as a word here. It very clear as a bell, who is been identified as being in heaven. Unfortunately the title of father is wrong and it is impossible to make it unique here, for all the males who boy a child qualifies as a father!

                 10Neither be ye called masters (καθηγητής):  for one is your Master (καθηγητής), even Christ.

My point on verse is better illustrated when the above is examined. If the word masters were used before Jesus spoke this verse 10, we must be in agreement that there is nothing unique about that title, even as it is further written with upper case M! But the word even but out the smoke that somebody may mistake for a raging inferno.

If a person were to read in a newsprint or some other nonreligious piece, which will invoke a far less emotion, one will not for a moment say the quanity that follows the word "EVEN," is thought of as the single entity that is been made to absorb the quality that is being spoken of, in a loving way, before the word "Even," was written.

We must all have heard at least a person say the word, "EVEN," in a sentence to emphasis that the entity that follows the word even, is not excluded, but rather incorprated into the entity previously spoken about in the action that was prevailing before even, as a word was written.

Let me use the word even in a sentence to show that no one of the entities will have a higher previlege that the others, even though they occur before or after the word even; The wind that was blowing as the rain heavily poured on us, made everyone in the car felt will be blown off the road; even the driver! This simple means that everyone in the car had the same single opinion.

Well, as you can see, I started out with Matthew 23 and the case still stands: the words there are masters and Master (καθηγητής) - same word in Greek; not teacher. There are teachers in the Body of Christ; but only one is Master - the Lord Jesus Christ:

          Matt. 23:10  -  ‘Neither be ye called masters (καθηγητής):
                                  for one is your Master (καθηγητής), even Christ.’

It is on that note that I made the point that we should be careful to not ascribe titles to men which were not meant to be so ascribed.

Shouldn't the semitic materials be the better sources of information, on New Testament verses, rather than labor terrible to use Greek? Not same lange and not same land. Jesus was no greek and his land was not being ruled by the Greece. What came to him and how he preached, neither was in greek language. If Jesus were to be alive,right now, whta would he do if he knows that Semitic language is abandoned for Greek, when people speak about his ministry, his works?

It is interesting that I see that master and Master are exactly the same in Greek. Do we truly know what the Hedonic or Helennic people have done to please their raw emotion to that they could fit Jesus mission to their own culture of man made gods they used to worship?

Understanding me is easy, if you cared. None of the apostles went about with the title of POPE.

More than that, if you assumed they did, I simply asked how many POPES were in the churches during the apostle Peter's day - you have always ducked that one and never thought it wise to offer an answer.

Next, I tried to help you see that Matthew 23:8-10 reminds us what the Lord said, and that is when you frantically starting running to non-Catholic websites to cut and paste. If I showed you matters from any website at all, you would hola back with your grand excuse that "they are ANTI-Catholic websites"!! You are just such a laugh! Well done this afternoon! Grin

It looks like you are arguing for the sake of arguing.  I never said that the apostles addressed themselves as 'Pope'.  What i said was that most early church bishops were addressed as 'Pope' or 'Popa' or father.  Just as we address our spiritual leaders as 'father' or 'Popa' or 'Pope'.  I showed you from the bible that the apostles (well at least Paul) referred to themselves as spiritual 'fathers'.  They are not addressed as 'Pope' (english for Popa). But they refer to themselves as 'father' (Popa: latin for father).  The term 'pope' is our way of addressing our spiritual leader.  The term pope derives from the latin term 'popa', meaning father. There were no popes during the days of the apostle because the word 'Pope' did not in use at the time. Plainly put, we call the leaders of our church, from the times of the apostles to today as 'fathers'. We call all of the successors of 'Peter' the term Pope. After posting all this greek and such, what is your point?  Can you plainly state what you are getting at?

olabowale:

[s]Just my casual observation, as a layman and a beginning student of religion:

As I read the summation of that verse, Matt 23 Verse, as it is presented above, I will take it that Jesus was the speaker. But his instruction was that "NO MAN," (any male) on earth, should be called "FATHER." If we have to follow it, what was Joseph the Capenter to him? What do we humans, sons and daughters of our mothers call the men who sired us? Are they not our fathers? Are we, all of us, Christians and nonchristians and oh yes, Jesus himself guilty of this direct injusction from the lips of "Master" Jesus? This is an impossible commandment to obey, if you are a daughter or a son of a man still on earth! Fortunately, my father had long passed. May Allah the Almight make him one of the people of Jannah! Amin. So to all the believing males and females (fathers and mothers), who had passed on as Muslims. Amin.



The word "even" throws a dart that stuck on that sentence. It is not clear, what the meaning is clearly. As I read it, it is leading me to believe that but arent you (many from among the people) called Rabbi? And then begin to say that there is a single Master. Even Christ and you (the people) are brethren (brethren as same people; homogenous in culture and language). You will see with better clarity as you read the verse that speaks about God, just below.



Here, you will see that the language of instruction is very clear. Forget for a moment of father, that I disagree with. It is very clear, however there could not be a dart thrown on this verse, as the other one above that starts out with a muddled  effect as one read it. There is no "Even" as a word here. It very clear as a bell, who is been identified as being in heaven. Unfortunately the title of father is wrong and it is impossible to make it unique here, for all the males who boy a child qualifies as a father!



My point on verse is better illustrated when the above is examined. If the word masters were used before Jesus spoke this verse 10, we must be in agreement that there is nothing unique about that title, even as it is further written with upper case M! But the word even but out the smoke that somebody may mistake for a raging inferno.

If a person were to read in a newsprint or some other nonreligious piece, which will invoke a far less emotion, one will not for a moment say the quanity that follows the word "EVEN," is thought of as the single entity that is been made to absorb the quality that is being spoken of, in a loving way, before the word "Even," was written.

We must all have heard at least a person say the word, "EVEN," in a sentence to emphasis that the entity that follows the word even, is not excluded, but rather incorprated into the entity previously spoken about in the action that was prevailing before even, as a word was written.

Let me use the word even in a sentence to show that no one of the entities will have a higher previlege that the others, even though they occur before or after the word even; The wind that was blowing as the rain heavily poured on us, made everyone in the car felt will be blown off the road; even the driver! This simple means that everyone in the car had the same single opinion.



Shouldn't the semitic materials be the better sources of information, on New Testament verses, rather than labor terrible to use Greek? Not same lange and not same land. Jesus was no greek and his land was not being ruled by the Greece. What came to him and how he preached, neither was in greek language. If Jesus were to be alive,right now, whta would he do if he knows that Semitic language is abandoned for Greek, when people speak about his ministry, his works?

It is interesting that I see that master and Master are exactly the same in Greek. Do we truly know what the Hedonic or Helennic people have done to please their raw emotion to that they could fit Jesus mission to their own culture of man made gods they used to worship?[/s]

@Olabowale,

Good afternoon. I have repeatedly said that I have respected you Muslims thus far and never been interested to type anything in your Muslim section. If that cannot go down well with you, no worries. If someone from the Christian section was to go over to the muslim section to question who allah was, the thread would either disappear, the poster would be banned pronto, or the post itself would be deleted. All these issues are clearly confirming the obvious - and that is why I have bid farewell to a religion that is not satisfied with itself until it has demonstrated its restlessness towards other people.

When I left Islam, I knew what it meant for someone to know that Jesus is Lord. I still confess Him as Lord, regardless whatever anyone on planet earth would say against Him. I still know that Moses and all the other peophets who knew God as FATHER were not lying. I still enjoy the ministry of the Holy Spirit in my daily living.

           What has pilgrim.1 done to muslims that they would not let me be?!?

           What has pilgrim.1 done to Muslims that they would not let me be?!?

           What has pilgrim.1 done to muslims that they would not let me be?!?

If you must force yourself to keep denying what the prophets have taught, what is my worry? I left Islam, it did me no good at all - and your attitude is confirming it on a daily basis. . . yet I'm not coming back.

I would rather remain a Christian who has known the love of God the Father than to return to a restless religion that will not let others be. As others have observed, you're only fighting a lost battle! Enjoy.

Jesus is Lord.

Omenuko,

Omenuko:

It looks like you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I never said that the apostles addressed themselves as 'Pope'.

That's all there is. If they did not address themselves as such, no further argument. The rest is needless noise, thank you.

Pilgrim,
you have tried. You have rightly deduced that there is not much else to be said. I pray God's truth will shine where there is darkness and illuminate the hearts that need His glorious light.

Olabowale,
Alhaji, you were supposed to tell me when you were in boston abi? How is my Olayiwola?
Ejo, please allow my sista Pilgrim to be. I have mentioned to you before that you should think about why you keep on being attracted to the christians/christian threads. Oga listen to that small voice whispering in your heart that Jesus is Lord. There is a peace with Him that you cannot even begint to imagine.

@Olabowale

Just my casual observation, as a layman and a beginning student of religion:

Quote
So, as it is, I started out by pointing that in Matthew 23:9, the Lord taught that we should call no man on earth "father", which is clear in context that such a term is not to be taken as an official title among Christians.

As I read the summation of that verse, Matt 23 Verse, as it is presented above, I will take it that Jesus was the speaker. But his instruction was that "NO MAN," (any male) on earth, should be called "FATHER." If we have to follow it, what was Joseph the Capenter to him? What do we humans, sons and daughters of our mothers call the men who sired us? Are they not our fathers? Are we, all of us, Christians and nonchristians and oh yes, Jesus himself guilty of this direct injusction from the lips of "Master" Jesus? This is an impossible commandment to obey, if you are a daughter or a son of a man still on earth! Fortunately, my father had long passed. May Allah the Almight make him one of the people of Jannah! Amin. So to all the believing males and females (fathers and mothers), who had passed on as Muslims. Amin.

This makes much more sense than what pilgrim.1 is saying.  And I think most people will agree with you here. . . .

Omenuko:

This makes much more sense than what pilgrim.1 is saying. And I think most people will agree with you here. . . .

I hear. It's easy to "agree" with someone who has reasons to argue with Christ by saying:

Are we, all of us, Christians and nonchristians and oh yes, Jesus himself guilty of this direct injusction from the lips of "Master" Jesus? This is an impossible commandment to obey,

Bros, for those who call themselves "Christians" and want to "agree" that Jesus himself guilty of this direct injusction, it is not my worry. The Lord Himself observes all things and all accusations made against Him. What I do know is that He is my only MASTER (Matthew 23:8 & 10).

God bless.

@pilgrim.1

Bros, for those who call themselves "Christians" and want to "agree" that Jesus himself guilty of this direct injusction, it is not my worry. The Lord Himself observes all things and all accusations made against Him. What I do know is that He is my only MASTER (Matthew 23:8 & 10).

One does not have to be Christian to have common sense.

Omenuko:

@pilgrim.1

One does not have to be Christian to have common sense.

I will not insult you. My common sense does not lead me to say that Jesus Himself is guilty of anything; nor does my common sense argue that His commandments are "impossible".

Blessings.

Dividends & Bonuses

Naughtyjeff:

Dividends & Bonuses

Would it help if you had posted it here: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/board-24.0.html ?

@pilgrim.1

Are we, all of us, Christians and nonchristians and oh yes, Jesus himself guilty of this direct injusction from the lips of "Master" Jesus? This is an impossible commandment to obey,

Bros, for those who call themselves "Christians" and want to "agree" that Jesus himself guilty of this direct injusction, it is not my worry. The Lord Himself observes all things and all accusations made against Him. What I do know is that He is my only MASTER (Matthew 23:8 & 10).

I don't believe he was saying Jesus is guilty of anything. I thought Muslims had great respect for Jesus and the holy family (Mary and Joseph). He just asked as simple and logical question. Off topic, I can say one thing though. . . .you would make a good catholic if ever you became one. What church do you attend?

-Offtopic-

What relevance does knowing her "church" bring? Is the church more an institution, some formalized corporation or the people within, a gathering of believers?

The default Catholic mindset states the former. But on what basis? The traditions laid down by the CC or Scripture? Again, the former. Anything further leads to the issue of sola scriptura, but should that be?

I pray God reveals unto Catholics the true meaning of what the church is and who they are. And i pray they are receptive.

Wordsmith:

-Offtopic-

What relevance does knowing her "church" bring? Is the church more an institution, some formalized corporation or the people within, a gathering of believers?

The default Catholic mindset states the former. But on what basis? The traditions laid down by the CC or Scripture? Again, the former. Anything further leads to the issue of sola scriptura, but should that be?

I pray God reveals unto Catholics the true meaning of what the church is and who they are. And i pray they are receptive.

You captured the catholic mindset in so few words.

@Omenuko,

Omenuko:

I don't believe he was saying Jesus is guilty of anything. I thought Muslims had great respect for Jesus and the holy family (Mary and Joseph). He just asked as simple and logical question.

Good morning, and I trust you continue to enjoy God's grace upon your life. Anyhow, it is true that many Muslims have great "respect" for Jesus; but in reality, they do not. Let me explain - by default, they would pretend to do so just to get your attention; but they truly don't give two scoobies about Him when further scrutinized. What dear Olabowale posted is a mild version of such manifestations: I bet you, he would never - I repeat "NEVER' - be so brash in speaking that way about Muhammad. Never! I know what I'm saying because that's where I grew up from; and only a queer Muslim would deny the fact even if evidence is presented right before his nose.

The one thing here is this, whatever respect anyone says he accords the Lord Jesus Christ, I still don't see how his "logic" would accuse Him of being guilty of anything. Just imagine any Christian using that same logic on Muhammad!

Anyhow, what is the bottomline is that only Jesus Christ is my MASTER (Matthew 23:8 & 10): there's no other. There's no logic round that fact - it's either He's the only Master, or He's not. For many, He may not be: and that's okay with them. For me, if I had remained in my former religion, it won't change the fact that Jesus is Lord.

Omenuko:

Off topic, I can say one thing though. . . .you would make a good catholic if ever you became one. What church do you attend?

Lol, for reasons beyond my control, I can't publicly say what church I attend (especially for the sake of the muslims that I continue to reach out to). Suffice to say that it's not Catholic, and we're taught to state our persuasions without felings of disaffection towards anyone.

Many blessings.

@pilgrim.1

Lol, for reasons beyond my control, I can't publicly say what church I attend (especially for the sake of the muslims that I continue to reach out to). Suffice to say that it's not Catholic, and we're taught to state our persuasions without felings of disaffection towards anyone.

Many blessings.

Fair enough. . . .many blessing to you and your family.

Glory to Jesus!

-Offtopic-

What relevance does knowing her "church" bring? Is the church more an institution, some formalized corporation or the people within, a gathering of believers?

The default Catholic mindset states the former. But on what basis? The traditions laid down by the CC or Scripture? Again, the former. Anything further leads to the issue of sola scriptura, but should that be?

I pray God reveals unto Catholics the true meaning of what the church is and who they are. And i pray they are receptive

When asking a question do not give the answers.
When did the Apostles say that we should only use scripture and which scripture did they use?
Did they use the new testament? or the old?

If you knew anything about the Catholic Church you won't state what you wrote.

Don't forget Jesus himself was also accused of doing the same as the Catholic Church.

And you may not have read this but this is what is said of the Church 1 Timothy 3:15 "if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth"

So when the Church makes the claim that it is the interpreter of the Bible, it is not by arrogance but by scripture.

You would also do well to answer questions that are posed to you, and ask the other non catholics such as david and pilgrim to answer the questions posed to them.
Why aren't the questions answered? You might want to ask that question. If certain people claim to know the truth they should be able to give an answer. Why can't they?

You may not know, but the traditions laid down by the Catholic Church are based on scripture.
Because a lot of people were illiterate and because they couldn't afford the Bible the Church interpreted the Bible to them, and taught them about God. Are those people not also Christians and did they not know the truth.

Or do you think Christianity started existing a few years ago or what? When everyone had access to the Bible? Those that didn't have Bibles, were they not Christians?
The Bible was not compiled until 393 A.D. were the apostles not Christian, because they didn't read the Bible and preach out of it? Were the early Christians not Christians because they didn't have the Bible?

What did they use, please?

David showed a passage of colossians saying that Paul instructed them to read the letters and pass it on. Well Paul also asked for the Epistle to the Laodiceans to be read and passed around too, well where is that epistle and do you consider it scripture? If no why not? Wasn't it passed around too? How come colossians is scripture and laodiceans isn't?

When you all start answering questions, then you would be worthy of anyone listening to you.

~Lady~:

Don't forget Jesus himself was also accused of doing the same as the Catholic Church.

Ye right! Like bowing down to graven images and using the bronze serpent as his excuse? Or by giving the hyperdulia worship to Mary? I don't know where He was accused of doing the same as the Catholic Church in these matters.

~Lady~:

So when the Church makes the claim that it is the interpreter of the Bible, it is not by arrogance but by scripture.

What scripture? When did the "church" usurp the role of the holy Spirit?