^^^
Nice written

davidylan the one man army, abeg make unah take am suffry

[quote author=Logicboy03]"Just keep your disbelief to yourself in Nigeria".

"I just mind my own business and let the religious bigots kill themselves"

"what can we do about Nigerians' craze for religion? Abeg, just let me live my life"


These are the words I have heard from some Nigerian atheists. Some from internet chats on facebook and some from my few atheists friends in London. They just look at Nigeria as hopeless and they resign to living a life of suffering while smiling. I am even seeing some of this sentiment here on Nairaland.


Talk to an American or British atheist and you will notice the difference. Many of them are ready to speak up for their rights peacefully. There are those that speak in public, while there are those who choose to be active on the internet. There are also those who hold private groups and advice other atheists.



I am starting to believe that Nigerian atheists, christians and muslims all share one thing in common- they have been domesticated and silenced by corrupt and dictatorial leaders with fear, hunger and a lawless society. So, it doesnt matter if you're an intelligent freethinker that has freed himself of the shackles of religion in Nigeria, you have been domesticated not to speak against the ruling power. You cant even reason to start a silent revolution. Yes, a silent revolution- how many Nigerian atheists have had the simple guts of a coward to even anonymously send respectful letters/emails to religious leaders explaining the problems of religious intolerance or dogmatic beliefs. If that is even too much, where are the Nigerian atheist blogs? The only proper Nigerian atheist blog I know is dead http://nigerianatheist..co.uk/


One funny thing is that the only Nigerians that I know that give me hope for Nigerian atheism/secularism/agnosticism are the few afrocentric atheist Nigerians in diaspora. I have two friends who are desperate to see change in Nigeria. They have travelled to and fro to Nigeria in recent years and they are willing to see a change in Nigeria. A discussion with them has given me hope. One is starting his own blog, just like me to educate fellow Nigerians. The other already has laid the groundwork for a secular charity that would spread its mission statement that good can be done without religion. Apart from my personal friends, there are even black British and African Americans (who I have seen speaking in public) who are willing and interested in doing campaigns in Africa- and Nigeria is always one of the first countries on their mind.
Shameless talk. I still argue that you know nothing about what you are talking about. You are really a confused fellow. There's no religious politician in Nigeria incase you don't know. They only pretend to ally with religion while they do totally something different. Only unstable fellows like you,people who are not sure of anything AFRICAN. When Sir Newton proposed the third law of motion what do you materialists think he had in mind?

David,

Pls confirm you sent a mail to my yahoomail via your davidylan yahoomail today.

Very urgent pls

ifeness:

I was born here just like several others. But i still think people have the right to reside where ever they wish to. Christianity is a major force that keeps people in ignorance,that is a fact!

and yet without Christianity , you would have had no education today, after all the missionaries brought education, hospitals and advancement to Nigeria , no ?

And what about the early scientists, e.g Isaac Newton et al, were it not for them, your few loud mouthed atheist Scientists would have had no foundation to build upon and thus remained in abject ignorance.

Sometimes, I wonder if you guys slow down and think before screaming all over this forum that there is no GOD.

What is biting you people , if there is no GOD , why are you so infuriated at the mere mention of his name.


Well get over it, there will always be people who believe in GOD.

Double Post

Jarus: David,

Pls confirm you sent a mail to my yahoomail via your davidylan yahoomail today.

Very urgent pls

hey Jarus, i emailed you right back. That was a scam that went to pretty much everyone on my mailing list. please delete.

frosbel:

and yet without Christianity , you would have had no education today, after all the missionaries brought education, hospitals and advancement to Nigeria , no ?

And what about the early scientists, e.g Isaac Newton et al, were it not for them, your few loud mouthed atheist Scientists would have had no foundation to build upon and thus remained in abject ignorance.

Sometimes, I wonder if you guys slow down and think before screaming all over this forum that there is no GOD.

What is biting you people , if there is no GOD , why are you so infuriated at the mere mention of his name.


Well get over it, there will always be people who believe in GOD.

They never seem to get this outraged when it comes to allah or ifa or sango. Perhaps they need to ask themselves why the name of Christ generates so much vicious hatred from them.

davidylan:

hey Jarus, i emailed you right back. That was a scam that went to pretty much everyone on my mailing list. please delete.

Wow, almost fell for it.

Jarus:
Wow, almost fell for it.

ha please oh. Dont post your card details there abeg...

tbaba1234:

I would argue that i have far better reasons to believe in a creator and my religion than to believe in your irreligiousity. Do you require physical evidence for the existence of your ancestry? The fact that you are here points to the fact that you had a great, great grand father. The same goes for our belief in God, the pointers for a muslim are all of existence and the inimitability of the Quranic scripture. Everything around us points to a superior intelligence, a God.

Yes, I require physical evidence. My being here proves I have ancestors obviously, it in no way proves allah is up there grooming my 72 vir.gins or preparing hell for me. Those are 2 totally unrelated things, and a silly analogy really. One has physical evidence to back it up (my presence), the other, a story book. All that about clues pointing to allah, get this, absolutely no evidence you have. A story book is no way, EVER, proof. Your assertions boil down to because you say so.

tbaba1234:
Is stoning more draconian than electrocuting a human being or hanging or lethal injection practised in secular countries? Assume for a second,there is a God that created the whole of the universe, Most of which (the universe) we have no clue about... Do you think you can limit that kind of wisdom and intelligence to your brain? Who is in a better position to determine what is irrational...

Yes it is, much more so than even electrocution, let alone the lethal injections which are largely painless. This is frankly another disingenuous assertion, really. And where do I state that capital punishment is ideal anyways? The west or secular societies doing something does not automatically make them right, but it most certainly does not make barbaric theocracies right as well.

Now, if god exists, he would have to explain why his view is more rational, simples. Just like any scientist for instance would have to give reasons why he believes his theory is superior to whatever he wants to replace, or a politician (in sane countries) would have to give reasons and explain any policies he wants to implement. Again, very simple. What you're suggesting here is that good deeds are deemed good because 'god' says so, not that they're inherently good. In other words, without your god, then there's no good. Sorry, that doesn't fly with me, at all. Your god tells me to stone someone to death I'll gladly tell it to 4k off. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to justify doing that, even Hitler and Stalin don't deserve that.

tbaba1234:
With all due respect, i do feel that the disbelief in a God is the height of irrationality....

Note the keyword here good ser, FEEL

tbaba1234:
Even if no religion existed , Do you think the world will be a better place? Man would still fight for resources, There will still be greed. We will still kill each other as evidenced by many, many wars in history that have nothing to do with religion. Do you know how many people were killed, maimed and tortured during the cold war? A war between two secular ideologies?

And I dispute this where?

tbaba1234:
You talk about an irrational core? Do you care to point that out?

I did. Do you think people should be stoned to death for working on sabbath day?

tbaba1234:
The disease of secular capitalist societies is why 10 million people are dying of obesity in the US while children in Africa are dying of starvation... Not enough food... That is why the wealth of the US is concentrated in the top 1%. People still live in abject poverty, struggling to live in the same country.

Incredible. Who forced africa to perpetuate the $hitstorm it is today? Did the US stand around and magically acquire 10 million obese or did they work for their success? (btw, how many people overall die in the us yearly? You do realize it has a population of about 300 mil yes? 10 mill dying yearly or 10 mill obese? Be clear rather than trying to manipulate numbers). We are now their responsibility? The eediot farmer who has over 10 children yet has his wife die at child birth because he couldn't raise 20k? Htf is the us responsible for that? Nobody is forcing us to be eediots bros, and receiving hand outs is not a sustainable model. We need to learn to take care of ourselves, just like the west has. Even if they bear some of the blame for our situation via imperialism, the onus is on us now to build up a sustainable way to live our lives.

And again, of course you can ignore all the good things the west has given you, from your current location in the ..*drumrolls*.. WEST

tbaba1234:
It is not because of a lack of resources, according to the FAO, there is enough food on this planet to feed 3 planets... The problem is distribution of wealth. Islam proposed a solution to this more than 1400 years ago. A solution that has been successful in past Islamic empires and dynasties. The institution of Zakat. You might want to read up on the Caliph Umar ibn abdul aziz.

Yes, yes, it's been very successful in the islamic world and only muslims give arms or are charitable. I've noticed all these as well. What a mind blowing, ingenuous and innovative solution, never before seen in humanity.

tbaba1234:
Like i said before, if you want to make the world a better place, build hospitals and clinics, help a person in need without seeking reward. Godlessness is not your solution.

And again, where did I say godlessness is the solution. But if you suggest that godliness in any shape, way or form is, then you're very clearly wrong, and I hope unintentionally. Next thing we know you'll be going on about atheists not being honest when searching for the 'truth', whatever that is. Yet you seem to have no problems with telling such a bold faced lie, about a problem not so easily determined mind you.

frosbel:

and yet without Christianity , you would have had no education today, after all the missionaries brought education, hospitals and advancement to Nigeria , no ?

And what about the early scientists, e.g Isaac Newton et al, were it not for them, your few loud mouthed atheist Scientists would have had no foundation to build upon and thus remained in abject ignorance.

Sometimes, I wonder if you guys slow down and think before screaming all over this forum that there is no GOD.

What is biting you people , if there is no GOD , why are you so infuriated at the mere mention of his name.


Well get over it, there will always be people who believe in GOD.

the same can be said about the catholics you love to hate

Yes, I require physical evidence. My being here proves I have ancestors obviously, it in no way proves allah is up there grooming my 72 vir.gins or preparing hell for me. Those are 2 totally unrelated things, and a silly analogy really. One has physical evidence to back it up (my presence), the other, a story book. All that about clues pointing to allah, get this, absolutely no evidence you have. A story book is no way, EVER, proof. Your assertions boil down to because you say so.

First of all, There is no authentic narration of '72 virgins'. Most muslims only hear this stuff from you guys (non-muslims).

I would need physical evidence of your great, great grand father please... say 6 generations back... How do i know you didn't just pop into existence? That is the irrationality of atheistic thought.

It is an excellent analogy.

The physical evidence of God is all around you.

we have very good rational reasons to believe that the universe has a creator. We can talk about so many things: the alternation of the night and the day, the various composition of gases, how amazing is it that water floats in its solid state (ICE) , If Ice sunk, life will not exist. The composition of gases in the atmosphere just happen to be right for life to exist, we happen to have the Ozone that filters the harmful rays of the sun, we happen to be just a distance from the sun that allows for life to exist. We happen to rotate on our axis at just the right speed. We have planets near us, whose gravitation force diverts objects from space hitting the earth.

The more you look, the more you see this incredible precision that exists, within our universe. The evidences of design are all around us. The rational conclusion to come to is that there is an intelligent force behind it all. Every grain of sand has a design to it.

A small change and there will be no life.

Do you know the odds for all of these to be be working so that life exists... The odds are mind-blowing!!!

This indicates to any rational thinking person that there is a creator.

We know the difference between something that is random and something that is purposefully designed. A mobile phone displays the characteristics of design for instance. Now we could come across an object that we have no previous experience of, but we will still recognize the components of design.

We do not attribute a mobile phone to a series of random events....

The need for Revelation:

If you acknowledge the existence of a God, There are questions we need to ask ourselves:

i. What is the purpose of life? why are we here? What is it all for? Why do we exist??

Not what do you want to do with your life but why do we humans exist? Everything has a purpose, your eyes has a purpose, your nose has a purpose, your mouth, your shoes, your pen.. The earthworm... Everything has a purpose ... So what is the purpose of your existence?

That is a very profound question,

ii. The Question of death, What's going to happen after death? Is there a life after death? Does you energy just merge with that of the universe and you have no existence?
Will you be reincarnated? Or is there a day of judgement? Whatever is going to happen. it will be good to have some information on it , one way or another..

iii. The third Question is the problem of evil.. Why is there so much suffering on earth? ... If there is a God, why is there so much suffering on the earth? Why do all these bad things happen? Now this question does not impinge at all upon the existence of a creator but it begs the question, why? Why does the creator let these things happen? why doesn't the creator stop the evil?

These are three profound questions, many people would ask themselves...
The only way to come to any conclusive answer for these questions is not through speculation, philosophy can never answer these questions, science can never answer these questions.
Why? because this is in the unseen.

It is only through revelation. The revelation itself must show pointers to the divine.

There is a need for revelation because we have some profound questions about our existence and there are compelling reasons for us to understand that we need those answers.We look at our lives as humans and we have many needs... emotional and physical needs... In this world, we have all the means for all those needs to be met. Hunger -food, thirst- water etc..

Wouldn't it be rational to assume that the creator who has provided the means to fulfill all of our needs has also provided answers to these important questions.

And like i said earlier, the only way you can reach certainty is if God provides those answers, everything else will be speculation.

Yes it is, much more so than even electrocution, let alone the lethal injections which are largely painless. This is frankly another disingenuous assertion, really. And where do I state that capital punishment is ideal anyways? The west or secular societies doing something does not automatically make them right, but it most certainly does not make barbaric theocracies right as well.

Now, if god exists, he would have to explain why his view is more rational, simples. Just like any scientist for instance would have to give reasons why he believes his theory is superior to whatever he wants to replace, or a politician (in sane countries) would have to give reasons and explain any policies he wants to implement. Again, very simple. What you're suggesting here is that good deeds are deemed good because 'god' says so, not that they're inherently good. In other words, without your god, then there's no good. Sorry, that doesn't fly with me, at all. Your god tells me to stone someone to death I'll gladly tell it to 4k off. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to justify doing that, even Hitler and Stalin don't deserve that.

There are no easy ways to carry out a death sentence but some crimes are deserving of it when proven beyond reasonable doubt ... Do you know many volts is passed through the body of a person electrocuted? Are you kidding me?

And lethal injections are far from painless. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7269-execution-by-injection-far-from-painless.html

Let me not go into hanging... gas chamber?... There are no easy ways to kill a person.... Secular societies have no moral ground to stand on here.

Besides in the first 1000 years of Islam.. only 3 people were stoned... These were people that confessed on their own and refused to withdraw their testimony so the punishment had to be carried out. The burden of proof is often impossible. How many people are on death role in the US alone??

Now tell me who is barbaric? just look at the numbers..

All humans have an inherent goodness, God placed an inherent goodness in Humans.. In Islam, it is called the fitrah. Some people choke it to death. Other get it twisted. We all do some form of good. However, in the absence of God, there is no objective criterion for goodness and morality. Hitler probably felt he was doing good by exterminating Jews. In the 70s, homosexuality was unacceptable in some societies, today it is acceptable.

In the absence of God, social consensus and biological necessities are the only other alternatives. Therefore, if a society says it is good to kill blacks, then it is good .

Also, If God created you and all that exists in the universe, do you think, he owes you an explanation for everything?

Imagine you are a slave and you have a master who owns you.... DO you think he owes you explanations for what he does?

Infact, anything he explains to you is an act of mercy to you.....

Your relationship with a creator is similar to that of a master-slave. He owns you!!

Now whilst coming to the knowledge of the existence of God should involve deep thought and logical analysis.

Once you are intellectually convinced, asking those kinds of questions is a show of arrogance and an argument from ignorance. Your knowledge or wisdon cannot be compared to one who created all.

Incredible. Who forced africa to perpetuate the $hitstorm it is today? Did the US stand around and magically acquire 10 million obese or did they work for their success? (btw, how many people overall die in the us yearly? You do realize it has a population of about 300 mil yes? 10 mill dying yearly or 10 mill obese? Be clear rather than trying to manipulate numbers). We are now their responsibility? The eediot farmer who has over 10 children yet has his wife die at child birth because he couldn't raise 20k? Htf is the us responsible for that? Nobody is forcing us to be eediots bros, and receiving hand outs is not a sustainable model. We need to learn to take care of ourselves, just like the west has. Even if they bear some of the blame for our situation via imperialism, the onus is on us now to build up a sustainable way to live our lives.

And again, of course you can ignore all the good things the west has given you, from your current location in the ..*drumrolls*.. WEST

Africa was a victim of exploitation of her resources and destruction of her heritage through colonization. Many of her current problems do have its roots there.

1/3 of the US adult are obese: http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html

I have benefited from the west but i also see the ills. It hurts me to see so much wealth in the US and yet see so much poverty. Something is wrong with a system where there are multi billionaires whilst some people work 3 jobs and still find it hard to get by.

The greed is suffocating. Pharmaceutical companies are making obscene profit by selling drugs at ridiculous prices.. Research is driven by greed not for actual societal benefit.

Yes, yes, it's been very successful in the islamic world and only muslims give arms or are charitable. I've noticed all these as well. What a mind blowing, ingenuous and innovative solution, never before seen in humanity.

The Zakat is not just about giving charity... It is an organised system that ensures that wealth is re-distributed and the poorest in the society become wealth creators.

In a true Islamic state, the Zakat is a means of wealth redistribution

davidylan:

depends on your definition of faith. this is how mirriam webster defines it - something that is believed especially with strong conviction.

The problem is that over the years we have come to identify "faith" as solely religious in nature.

Atheism is not a belief.


Furthermore, nice try to take the most ambiguous definition of faith to try and include atheism. Dubious fool.

frosbel:

and yet without Christianity , you would have had no education today, after all the missionaries brought education, hospitals and advancement to Nigeria , no ?

And what about the early scientists, e.g Isaac Newton et al, were it not for them, your few loud mouthed atheist Scientists would have had no foundation to build upon and thus remained in abject ignorance.

Sometimes, I wonder if you guys slow down and think before screaming all over this forum that there is no GOD.

What is biting you people , if there is no GOD , why are you so infuriated at the mere mention of his name.


Well get over it, there will always be people who believe in GOD.

Did Japan need christianity to learn western education to become the most technologically advanced country in the world? NO!! So your claims fail;

Just because something happened one way, it does mean that it couldnt have happened the other.



Before you go praising your slave religion for western education also remember that the same christianity supported the enslavement of our ancestors for 300 years under the Europeans before the first school was built.

tbaba1234:

First of all, There is no authentic narration of '72 virgins'. Most muslims only hear this stuff from you guys (non-muslims).

I would need physical evidence of your great, great grand father please... say 6 generations back... How do i know you didn't just pop into existence? That is the irrationality of atheistic thought.

It is an excellent analogy.

No, it's a rather poor analogy. I know my grand parents existed because there is conspicuous physical evidence they existed, again, ME. I must have had ancestors, all the way down to single celled organisms billions of years ago. That we do know, what we do not know, and have absolutely no evidence for, is some supernatural force behind it. That is pure speculation, with no physical evidence to back it up. Simple

Btw, somehow my popping into existence from nothing is irrational yet allah popping out of nowhere is rational?

tbaba1234:
The physical evidence of God is all around you.

Errm, where? When exactly do you show this evidence? The only thing we have evidence for is this; something exists. That is all.

tbaba1234:
we have very good rational reasons to believe that the universe has a creator. We can talk about so many things: the alternation of the night and the day, the various composition of gases, how amazing is it that water floats in its solid state (ICE) , If Ice sunk, life will not exist. The composition of gases in the atmosphere just happen to be right for life to exist, we happen to have the Ozone that filters the harmful rays of the sun, we happen to be just a distance from the sun that allows for life to exist. We happen to rotate on our axis at just the right speed. We have planets near us, whose gravitation force diverts objects from space hitting the earth.

The more you look, the more you see this incredible precision that exists, within our universe. The evidences of design are all around us. The rational conclusion to come to is that there is an intelligent force behind it all. Every grain of sand has a design to it.

A small change and there will be no life.

Do you know the odds for all of these to be be working so that life exists... The odds are mind-blowing!!!

This indicates to any rational thinking person that there is a creator.

Not in any shape, way or form. The antrophic principle has been done to death.

The only remotely viable concern you list here is the constants. This is what we know, some of constants are extremely unlikely, seemingly incredible amounts of luck were involved in arriving at those numbers. Numbers just about right to barely support our type of life when you consider how we're yet to come across aliens yet, even bacterial, and just how about every single element could injure us easily. Anyways, this does not mean a creator, at all. It means simply: we don't know.

Note, "you don't know" has never equaled "god did it". If it did guess what? There won't be any atheists. That would qualify as proof, no? Despite myriad claims though no god has ever been discovered. Ever. Through history gods have been chased from the rocks to the sky's, the cosmos and now to the era before the big ba.ng, were they presumably tweak the constants. There's nothing new to see here with the constants. It's simply humans making the same mistakes, a feat we're particularly good at. And of course the hubris, assuming this vast universe was made just for us..

So, rather than drawing a conclusion with absolutely no evidence to back it up except a story book, I would suggest you guys step aside and let the well tested scientific method explore viable possibilities. Like a multi-verse spitting out billions of galaxies at any given moment, making ours simply one from billions others which just happens to be capable of supporting life. Just like the earth seemingly happens to be one from billions with conditions capable of evolving carbon based life. That's a much better hypothesis than assuming allah somehow magically created himself and built this incredibly vast cosmos just so he could tell us not to eat pork. If science folded its arms and said "god did it" to everything it does not understand we'd probably be stuck in the 7th century with you lot. Thankfully for us it doesn't.

And btw, how do you know the current config of the constants is the optimal one? Optimal one to what purpose anyways? For life? You may have missed that it barely made the mark, considering how everything really wants to kill us in this universe. But importantly, there very well could be better configurations if the aim were to support conscious life.

tbaba1234:
We know the difference between something that is random and something that is purposefully designed. A mobile phone displays the characteristics of design for instance. Now we could come across an object that we have no previous experience of, but we will still recognize the components of design.

We do not attribute a mobile phone to a series of random events....

Let me help you out there, we know dna is far more complex than the human designed mobile phone. In fact, I'm pretty darn sure the make up of an atom is more complex in many ways than that of a phone, even if you disregard string theory (which is more of a hypothesis). Even many machinations of the weather are probably more complex yet guess what, we do not attribute any of those to design. In fact they look so haphazardly put together it is rather obvious there was no intelligent designer anywhere. Else, like our breeders who have been able to turn wolves into hairless dogs over a few thousand years, doctors aiding our immune systems with drugs, these processes wouldn't be so badly designed, yes?

There was no plan or anything of that sort behind creation, we conscious beings are frankly just lucky that after millenia of simple structures combining and interacting randomly complexities like us evolved, that's it. View simple simulations like the game of life and observe how simple things can become rather complex after a few iterations of simple interactions. Or look up fractals to see how patterns emerge in nature.

tbaba1234:
The need for Revelation:

If you acknowledge the existence of a God, There are questions we need to ask ourselves:

i. What is the purpose of life? why are we here? What is it all for? Why do we exist??

Not what do you want to do with your life but why do we humans exist? Everything has a purpose, your eyes has a purpose, your nose has a purpose, your mouth, your shoes, your pen.. The earthworm... Everything has a purpose ... So what is the purpose of your existence?

That is a very profound question,

ii. The Question of death, What's going to happen after death? Is there a life after death? Does you energy just merge with that of the universe and you have no existence?
Will you be reincarnated? Or is there a day of judgement? Whatever is going to happen. it will be good to have some information on it , one way or another..

iii. The third Question is the problem of evil.. Why is there so much suffering on earth? ... If there is a God, why is there so much suffering on the earth? Why do all these bad things happen? Now this question does not impinge at all upon the existence of a creator but it begs the question, why? Why does the creator let these things happen? why doesn't the creator stop the evil?

These are three profound questions, many people would ask themselves...
The only way to come to any conclusive answer for these questions is not through speculation, philosophy can never answer these questions, science can never answer these questions.
Why? because this is in the unseen.

It is only through revelation. The revelation itself must show pointers to the divine.

There is a need for revelation because we have some profound questions about our existence and there are compelling reasons for us to understand that we need those answers.We look at our lives as humans and we have many needs... emotional and physical needs... In this world, we have all the means for all those needs to be met. Hunger -food, thirst- water etc..

Wouldn't it be rational to assume that the creator who has provided the means to fulfill all of our needs has also provided answers to these important questions.

And like i said earlier, the only way you can reach certainty is if God provides those answers, everything else will be speculation.

See above. All this is very void. No purpose or all the other xx.x you list up here. Chance. Simple. Deal with it rather than make stuff up to make yourself special. And note, which god provides the answer? You can't just beg a question and expect to be taken seriously, you know that yes?

tbaba1234:
There are no easy ways to carry out a death sentence but some crimes are deserving of it when proven beyond reasonable doubt ... Do you know many volts is passed through the body of a person electrocuted? Are you kidding me?

And lethal injections are far from painless. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7269-execution-by-injection-far-from-painless.html

Let me not go into hanging... gas chamber?... There are no easy ways to kill a person.... Secular societies have no moral ground to stand on here.

Besides in the first 1000 years of Islam.. only 3 people were stoned... These were people that confessed on their own and refused to withdraw their testimony so the punishment had to be carried out. The burden of proof is often impossible. How many people are on death role in the US alone??

Now tell me who is barbaric? just look at the numbers..

Again, capital punishment is barbaric, simple. But indubitably all those methods you describe are far better than stoning someone to death. Much more. What sort of sadistic and inefficient way to kill someone is that? The aim is to kill him not torture him, yes? Wtf with all the slow, painful stoning? It is comparable to being hanged, quartered and drawn, which gladly the west have left behind in the dark ages.

tbaba1234:

All humans have an inherent goodness, God placed an inherent goodness in Humans.. In Islam, it is called the fitrah. Some people choke it to death. Other get it twisted. We all do some form of good. However, in the absence of God, there is no objective criterion for goodness and morality. Hitler probably felt he was doing good by exterminating Jews. In the 70s, homosexuality was unacceptable in some societies, today it is acceptable.

In the absence of God, social consensus and biological necessities are the only other alternatives. Therefore, if a society says it is good to kill blacks, then it is good .

Also, If God created you and all that exists in the universe, do you think, he owes you an explanation for everything?

Imagine you are a slave and you have a master who owns you.... DO you think he owes you explanations for what he does?

Infact, anything he explains to you is an act of mercy to you.....

Your relationship with a creator is similar to that of a master-slave. He owns you!!

Beg question, again. What god? Also again, with or without your god, I know stoning someone to death is plain EVIL. Unnecessary suffering everywhere about it. Don't need any god to point that out to me, it is so with or without them.

As for slavery, well. You think slavery is acceptable? Good for you, but please, don't assume the rest of us will indulge you. Most of us would have gladly fought to end the blatant slavery of the past, actively seek to end slavery in its various forms today, and would gladly take the fight to allah if he actually existed. I remember a story about some abolitionist relating his experiences with slaves; they didn't know they were slaves, and in fact hindered his attempts at freeing them. Same thing I see here.

Happy slave....*smh*. That's some heavy indoctrination speaking.

tbaba1234:
Now whilst coming to the knowledge of the existence of God should involve deep thought and logical analysis.

Once you are intellectually convinced, asking those kinds of questions is a show of arrogance and an argument from ignorance. Your knowledge or wisdon cannot be compared to one who created all.

tbaba1234:
Africa was a victim of exploitation of her resources and destruction of her heritage through colonization. Many of her current problems do have its roots there.

1/3 of the US adult are obese: http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html

I have benefited from the west but i also see the ills. It hurts me to see so much wealth in the US and yet see so much poverty. Something is wrong with a system where there are multi billionaires whilst some people work 3 jobs and still find it hard to get by.

The greed is suffocating. Pharmaceutical companies are making obscene profit by selling drugs at ridiculous prices.. Research is driven by greed not for actual societal benefit.

And then...What? This in no way addresses my response, it still stands, very much so. Or I did not acknowledge imperialism or anything else you stated here?

tbaba1234:
The Zakat is not just about giving charity... It is an organised system that ensures that wealth is re-distributed and the poorest in the society become wealth creators.

In a true Islamic state, the Zakat is a means of wealth redistribution

See above. Addressed already in previous post.
Communism has been tried and tested btw, the results haven't been too impressive. And really, for the love of allah, you expect a system crafted for a world 1400 years to work in today's world? To be accepted just because it was in a story book? Again, if you want to remain in the dark ages don't expect us to indulge you.


So, you have absolutely no evidence at all to back up your claims. As for progress, the evidence on ground does not show muslim societies as somehow doing better than the west, or godliness as being necessary or the best way to achieve success of the HDI variety in any way. So, once again, if you claim godliness is somehow the best approach, you are clearly WRONG.


Edited

This is getting better. C'mon guys.

Reyginus: This is getting better. C'mon guys.

Lolz, craze man..

Where pagan 9ja don go??.........

musKeeto:
Lolz, craze man..

LOL. My friend in the field of craziness. I'm enjoying this ride. I would have joined in driving but I'm too occupied...

No, it's a rather poor analogy. I know my grand parents existed because there is conspicuous physical evidence they existed, again, ME. I must have had ancestors, all the way down to single celled organisms billions of years ago. That we do know, what we do not know, and have absolutely no evidence for, is some supernatural force behind it. That is pure speculation, with no physical evidence to back it up. Simple

Btw, somehow my popping into existence from nothing is irrational yet allah popping out of nowhere is rational?

No, you have not shown me proof of this.... you must have I can also say there must be a God... Please show me physical evidence.

You see, because you are here, you know you had an ancestry. It is the only rational deduction. The whole world is here acting with incredible precision and design. We know there must be an intelligent designer. It is the only rational deduction

Everything that begins to exist has a cause.

Imagine you are working around in the desert and you find a mobile phone. Around you in the desert, you have the basic raw materials needed to make a mobile phone. You have sand from which you can make glass, silicon chip. You have oil to make plastic, you have traces of precious metals to make the circuit board, you have heat (the sun).

The point is this: The basic minerals needed to make a mobile phone exist in the desert and some of them are in large amounts but you do not see a mobile phone and come to the conclusion that it is as a result of billions of years of random weather or conditions. Common sense tells you that someone dropped it there. Any other option is ridiculous.

Again, we look at a mobile phone and see that it has systems and patterns working in harmony, We see the same thing in our universe. This indicates a designer.

Also everything that began to exist has a cause; the universe began to exist, so it has a cause. It goes against everything we know as humans that things just come into existence. It is common sense.

So what can we conclude about this cause?

i. The nature of the cause of the universe must be different from the universe because if its nature was the same as the universe, it would be the same as the universe. In other words, it would be more of the same.

And then we have to ask: What brought that into existence? What caused that? Everything that begins to exist must have a cause, The creator never began to exist. This leads to the absurdity of the infinite regress of causes. The universe must have had a finite start and must therefore have a cause different from it.

We can safely conclude that the cause of the universe must be different from it. The cause of the universe never began to exist therefore it doesn't need a cause itself. The universe is finite, this cause is infinite. This universe is needy, this cause is self-sufficient.

It is easy to conclude that the cause for this universe must be infinite, self-sufficient, Intelligent, unconfined by space and time (a feature of our universe). One that has will and power. This is the most rational conclusion we can make for the cause of our universe, everything else sounds just crazy. I mean, fairy tale land crazy...

We can only rationally conceive of one such being, There can't be two infinite, self-sufficient, Intelligent powerful beings. There can only be one, if there was two, one will necessarily restrict the power of the other. It is not difficult to see using reason how we can come to believe in one creator of the universe.

This is what most people call God.

Not in any shape, way or form. The antrophic principle has been done to death.

The only remotely viable concern you list here is the constants. This is what we know, some of constants are extremely unlikely, seemingly incredible amounts of luck were involved in arriving at those numbers. Numbers just about right to barely support our type of life when you consider how we're yet to come across aliens yet, even bacterial, and just how about every single element could injure us easily. Anyways, this does not mean a creator, at all. It means simply: we don't know.

Note, "you don't know" has never equaled "god did it". If it did guess what? There won't be any atheists. That would qualify as proof, no? Despite myriad claims though no god has ever been discovered. Ever. Through history gods have been chased from the rocks to the sky's, the cosmos and now to the era before the big ba.ng, were they presumably tweak the constants. There's nothing new to see here with the constants. It's simply humans making the same mistakes, a feat we're particularly good at. And of course the hubris, assuming this vast universe was made just for us..

So, rather than drawing a conclusion with absolutely no evidence to back it up except a story book, I would suggest you guys step aside and let the well tested scientific method explore viable possibilities. Like a multi-verse spitting out billions of galaxies at any given moment, making ours simply one from billions others which just happens to be capable of supporting life. Just like the earth seemingly happens to be one from billions with conditions capable of evolving carbon based life. That's a much better hypothesis than assuming allah somehow magically created himself and built this incredibly vast cosmos just so he could tell us not to eat pork. If science folded its arms and said "god did it" to everything it does not understand we'd probably be stuck in the 7th century with you lot. Thankfully for us it doesn't.

And btw, how do you know the current config of the constants is the optimal one? Optimal one to what purpose anyways? For life? You may have missed that it barely made the mark, considering how everything really wants to kill us in this universe. But importantly, there very well could be better configurations if the aim were to support conscious life.

Like i said earlier, the creator of the universe is not bounded by the laws of the universe because He can exist outside it. Time and space are constructs that we understand because we live in the universe.

The absurdity of an infinite regress of causes means there must have been a finite start to the universe. An uncreated Creator.

Imagine, i asked you to reply after seeking permission from logicboy and logicboy has to seek permission from someone else and this goes on forever.. Would you ever reply? This is the absurdity of an infinite regress..

The fact that we have a universe is evidence for a finite start.

When you come across such incredible co-incidences, a rational thinking person does not attribute it to chance. Everything is working in a way such that we survive of this earth. I guess there is a chance that the mobile phone in the desert got formed by incidents of random weather conditions too?? Does that sound rational to you...

That is the irrationality of atheist thought. It borders on the level of stupidity.

It is not a case of we don't know... It is a case of design and causality .. All of which using common sense point to a creator and a designer. It is common sense.

Whether there are other creatures in the universe is irrelevant to this argument, Our solar system moves in particular patterns. A rationally thinking person can only think design.

I look at road networks and i do not assume it got formed randomly or that i do not know... I know there is a designer.

Actually, the Quran encourages us to look into the universe, the more we learn about the Universe , the more you would be certain of the existence of a God. That is why early and medevial muslim scholars were also scientists.

This is a common sense issue. Apply it.

Let me help you out there, we know dna is far more complex than the human designed mobile phone. In fact, I'm pretty darn sure the make up of an atom is more complex in many ways than that of a phone, even if you disregard string theory (which is more of a hypothesis). Even many machinations of the weather are probably more complex yet guess what, we do not attribute any of those to design. In fact they look so haphazardly put together it is rather obvious there was no intelligent designer anywhere. Else, like our breeders who have been able to turn wolves into hairless dogs over a few thousand years, doctors aiding our immune systems with drugs, these processes wouldn't be so badly designed, yes?

There was no plan or anything of that sort behind creation, we conscious beings are frankly just lucky that after millenia of simple structures combining and interacting randomly complexities like us evolved, that's it. View simple simulations like the game of life and observe how simple things can become rather complex after a few iterations of simple interactions. Or look up fractals to see how patterns emerge in nature.

Look at the human brain... One of the most complicated systems in the world. You look at it and all you see is a designer. The DNA, the weather patterns.. You attribute a mobile phone to design and more complex working designs to chance.

This is the irrationality of atheist thought.

There seems to be a pattern, a system to how every thing works... Applying our common sense, we see that and know it was designed. Everywhere you turn, everything you look at...

Do you know how many diseases your immune system saves you from everyday. you will be dead without one. The white blood cells are affected by food and other habits (alcohol, smoking etc). There are times that they could be down and we need drugs. It does not take away at all from their effectiveness and an indication to design.

This grand conspiracy to keep us alive.

Common sense will not attribute any of these to luck or chance. The odds are too mind-boggling

Otherwise i can attribute anything to chance, I can say you fell out of the sky... At least, there is a chance... It does not matter how ridiculous the odds are.

This is the irrationality of atheism.

See above. All this is very void. No purpose or all the other xx.x you list up here. Chance. Simple. Deal with it rather than make stuff up to make yourself special. And note, which god provides the answer? You can't just beg a question and expect to be taken seriously, you know that yes?

Of course chance... And you fell off the sky... wait, wait, but there is a chance...

Beg question, again. What god? Also again, with or without your god, I know stoning someone to death is plain EVIL. Unnecessary suffering everywhere about it. Don't need any god to point that out to me, it is so with or without them.

As for slavery, well. You think slavery is acceptable? Good for you, but please, don't assume the rest of us will indulge you. Most of us would have gladly fought to end the blatant slavery of the past, actively seek to end slavery in its various forms today, and would gladly take the fight to allah if he actually existed. I remember a story about some abolitionist relating his experiences with slaves; they didn't know they were slaves, and in fact hindered his attempts at freeing them. Same thing I see here.

Happy slave....*smh*. That's some heavy indoctrination speaking.

The master-slave illustration was just that (an illustration).. You did not address the point. Arguing from a position of Ignorance is silly.

You see,the main problem with many atheists is not necessary the existence of a God. It is the Idea of being obedient and subservient to that God. It is an arrogant mentality.

See above. Addressed already in previous post.
Communism has been tried and tested btw, the results haven't been too impressive. And really, for the love of allah, you expect a system crafted for a world 1400 years to work in today's world? To be accepted just because it was in a story book? Again, if you want to remain in the dark ages don't expect us to indulge you.


So, you have absolutely no evidence at all to back up your claims. As for progress, the evidence on ground does not show muslim societies as somehow doing better than the west, or godliness as being necessary or the best way to achieve success of the HDI variety in any way. So, once again, if you claim godliness is somehow the best approach, you are clearly WRONG.

Muslim societies have their challenges today but we see that they were the most progressive in the past particularly when they were ruled with Islam. A myriad of factors, political and social are responsible not necessarily godliness.

And yes, the model of 1400 years worked for centuries and would still work today if properly implemented.

I did not make any assertion about godliness... I pointed out that the OP's idea of changing the world through godlessness is baseless and is of zero value.

But then again, go ahead with your evangelism.

LMAO
Reminds me of Adeboye saying he's disappointed in redeemers/christians.
ATHEISM IS NOT A RELIGION?

Bélla3: LMAO
Reminds me of Adeboye saying he's disappointed in redeemers/christians.
ATHEISM IS NOT A RELIGION?

Yawn......read again

Logicboy03:


Yawn......read again

where is that pic i just saved? Brb.

Until recently I used to ignore atheists but I recently realized it was wrong of me to do that. That day, God asked me, "How can they hear, unless someone tells them?" That was how I had a reorientation. So read my story:
By training I am a
core scientist and very widely read.
My training predisposes me to ask
questions and question answers
until I arrive at questions that are
unanswerrable and answers that
are unquestionable. However, God
helped me. I realized years ago
that science as wonderful as it is
has its limitations. There are plenty
phenomena it hasn't been able to
evidentially explain. There are
several theories or positions it
held few years ago which in the
light of newer discoveries no
longer hold. What's more, it can
only investigate the natural,
physical world. Nothing more! It
has created absolutely nothing. All
true scientist and science itself are
bewildered by science's
discoveries some of which were
actually mistakes.
There is hardly any atheistic
position I haven't read,
understood and found credible
and completely satisfactory
answers to from the word of God.
And I tell you the truth, anybody
could find this answers satisfactory
as well except that they are
beyond science and logic. They are
spiritual. The bible has this to say;
"My thoughts are completely
different from yours," says the
lord. "And my ways are far beyond
anything you could imagine. For
just as the heavens are higher
than the earth, so are my ways
higher than your ways and my
thoughts higher than your
thoughts."
Is 55:8,9(NLT)
If we must find God, his term is
that we must come in faith for
faith is what connects the physical
to the spiritual. That was how
those who walked before us
obtained God's approval and until
we have faith, we will never ever be
able to trully understand (Heb
11:2-3)
God bless you and open the eyes of your mind to percieve his truth in Jesus name, Amen.

traeces: Until recently I used to ignore atheists but I recently realized it was wrong of me to do that. That day, God asked me, "How can they hear, unless someone tells them?" That was how I had a reorientation. So read my story:
By training I am a
core scientist and very widely read.
My training predisposes me to ask
questions and question answers
until I arrive at questions that are
unanswerrable and answers that
are unquestionable. However, God
helped me. I realized years ago
that science as wonderful as it is
has its limitations. There are plenty
phenomena it hasn't been able to
evidentially explain. There are
several theories or positions it
held few years ago which in the
light of newer discoveries no
longer hold. What's more, it can
only investigate the natural,
physical world. Nothing more! It
has created absolutely nothing. All
true scientist and science itself are
bewildered by science's
discoveries some of which were
actually mistakes.
There is hardly any atheistic
position I haven't read,
understood and found credible
and completely satisfactory
answers to from the word of God.
And I tell you the truth, anybody
could find this answers satisfactory
as well except that they are
beyond science and logic. They are
spiritual. The bible has this to say;
"My thoughts are completely
different from yours," says the
lord. "And my ways are far beyond
anything you could imagine. For
just as the heavens are higher
than the earth, so are my ways
higher than your ways and my
thoughts higher than your
thoughts."
Is 55:8,9(NLT)
If we must find God, his term is
that we must come in faith for
faith is what connects the physical
to the spiritual. That was how
those who walked before us
obtained God's approval and until
we have faith, we will never ever be
able to trully understand (Heb
11:2-3)
God bless you and open the eyes of your mind to percieve his truth in Jesus name, Amen.

Sorry to say, but this is pathetic. :/
Core scientists don't settle for unverified myths

tbaba1234:

No, you have not shown me proof of this.... you must have I can also say there must be a God... Please show me physical evidence.

You see, because you are here, you know you had an ancestry. It is the only rational deduction. The whole world is here acting with incredible precision and design. We know there must be an intelligent designer. It is the only rational deduction

Everything that begins to exist has a cause.

I've addressed this already, you are now clearly at the LALALALA stage. That you exist now does not mean allah or any other god is fidgeting about whether you have ghey sex or not, it simply means something exists. That is all, the rest is jara. Completely, assumptions made up mostly to make you feel better from your story book.

As for my ancestors, you have a better theory with evidence to back it up? Like you've already noted it would be silly for me to assume I didn't have any considering the very clear and undeniable evidence that people have children, and those children have children, etc etc. That, is clear and irrefutable evidence that the cycle of life and death takes place, simple logic demands I assume I had ancestors, as macroscopic objects just don't pop into existence regularly, no? We have plenty of evidence to support their not popping out of nowhere as well.

But your supernatural sky daddy, what's the evidence for that? Yes, we cannot see, hear or touch him in any way. We cannot measure anything about him, perform any sort of tests or verify his predictions. Nought. We just have a story book you claim is divinely inspired, a rather hate filled one at that. If that's your evidence don't waste my time. You don't see me wasting yours with tales about r'hllor despite his being much more awesome than allah.

So, please again explain to me how your analogy makes any sense again? There's evidence to suggest I had ancestors, all the laws of physics and biology point in that direction, these laws can be tested and verified. Allah? No, not so much. Randomly making $hit up does not equal evidence,

tbaba1234:
Imagine you are working around in the desert and you find a mobile phone. Around you in the desert, you have the basic raw materials needed to make a mobile phone. You have sand from which you can make glass, silicon chip. You have oil to make plastic, you have traces of precious metals to make the circuit board, you have heat (the sun).

The point is this: The basic minerals needed to make a mobile phone exist in the desert and some of them are in large amounts but you do not see a mobile phone and come to the conclusion that it is as a result of billions of years of random weather or conditions. Common sense tells you that someone dropped it there. Any other option is ridiculous.

Again, we look at a mobile phone and see that it has systems and patterns working in harmony, We see the same thing in our universe. This indicates a designer.

Blah, blah, LALALALA. Addressed as well

Not all the elements needed to make a phone exist naturally in the desert, that's a bold faced lie. Anyways, I see a rock in the desert I don't assume some magical being put it there. Same when I see weather and it's stellar complexity. These processes can and have been for the most part explained naturally. Details do need to be worked, but again, "I don't know" has never equaled "god did it". Ever. Like I already said, simple to complex. Energies interaction led to us. Nothing supernatural, no plans, etc etc

Let's examine your intelligent designer. Evolution and its 99 percent fail rate seems rather random and efficient, don't you think? Or simply the sun shining, happily wasting away the very vast majority of the energy it produces. Efficient, don't you think?

When I see scientists develop vaccines and avert disasters in a fraction of the time it would take nature to deal with them, I see what beings with intelligence and a purpose are capable in such a short space of time. When I see breeders turn wolves to dogs in a few years, I see efficiency and a purpose. Or even our own rather wasteful power generators, designed and built quickly, no where near as wasteful as the very purposeless sun, which took billions of years to form. Nature is mindless, purposeless, random. Simple

tbaba1234:
Also everything that began to exist has a cause; the universe began to exist, so it has a cause. It goes against everything we know as humans that things just come into existence. It is common sense.

And what happened to your first cause and its effects?

Or are you warming up to the idea that something can come from nothing. You do know that as far as modern science is concerned, something comes from nothing all the time? Though that picture is probably incomplete, so we can ignore that for now.

tbaba1234:
So what can we conclude about this cause?

Not much, at all. We can speculate until someone brings some concrete evidence

tbaba1234:
i. The nature of the cause of the universe must be different from the universe because if its nature was the same as the universe, it would be the same as the universe. In other words, it would be more of the same.

Humans create objects not found in nature all the time, are you saying their nature is not the same as the rest of the universe?

Another absurd assumption

tbaba1234:
And then we have to ask: What brought that into existence? What caused that? Everything that begins to exist must have a cause, The creator never began to exist. This leads to the absurdity of the infinite regress of causes. The universe must have had a finite start and must therefore have a cause different from it.

We can safely conclude that the cause of the universe must be different from it. The cause of the universe never began to exist therefore it doesn't need a cause itself. The universe is finite, this cause is infinite. This universe is needy, this cause is self-sufficient.

Nonsense, see above for faulty premise.
And why can't the universe, with it's very random nature which explains the obvious purposlessness be the first cause? Because you say so?

tbaba1234:
It is easy to conclude that the cause for this universe must be infinite, self-sufficient, Intelligent, unconfined by space and time (a feature of our universe). One that has will and power. This is the most rational conclusion we can make for the cause of our universe, everything else sounds just crazy. I mean, fairy tale land crazy...

We can only rationally conceive of one such being, There can't be two infinite, self-sufficient, Intelligent powerful beings. There can only be one, if there was two, one will necessarily restrict the power of the other. It is not difficult to see using reason how we can come to believe in one creator of the universe.

This is what most people call God.

See above, faulty premise, laughable assumptions. Assumption after assumption after assumption.... Are you going for some sort of record?

I do know of another member that makes about as many baseless assumptions as you do, a notorious poster at that. Far too much story to get into all that though.

tbaba1234:
Like i said earlier, the creator of the universe is not bounded by the laws of the universe because He can exist outside it. Time and space are constructs that we understand because we live in the universe.

The absurdity of an infinite regress of causes means there must have been a finite start to the universe. An uncreated Creator.

assumption...assumption...
Is hashish really more potent than regular weed, can you verify this?

tbaba1234:
Imagine, i asked you to reply after seeking permission from logicboy and logicboy has to seek permission from someone else and this goes on forever.. Would you ever reply? This is the absurdity of an infinite regress..

The fact that we have a universe is evidence for a finite start.

Heheheh. So you think there are no infinities in nature? Yes or no pls. Or your intelligent super powerful god is beyond common sense, and has to have all these properties you made up just because? You know they've been shown to not be necessary, yes?

tbaba1234:
When you come across such incredible co-incidences, a rational thinking person does not attribute it to chance. Everything is working in a way such that we survive of this earth. I guess there is a chance that the mobile phone in the desert got formed by incidents of random weather conditions too?? Does that sound rational to you...

That is the irrationality of atheist thought. It borders on the level of stupidity.

What borders on stoopidity is assuming an extremely inefficient, haphazard and dangerous universe as far as supporting carbon based life is concerned was designed by any sort of intelligent consciousness with the purpose of producing said carbon based life. Let alone the main purpose being producing a species brimming with as much hubris and destructiveness as the homo sapiens. It took the designer 14 billion years no less and trillions of galaxies to achieve this mighty feat. I don't how drunk he was when he drew up his plans, perhaps you can elaborate?

And like I've already pointed out, another thing that borders on stoopid, considering how many times it has always failed, is assuming "I don't know" = "god did it". What's that they say about madness, it being repeating the same mistake over and over again yet expecting different results?

tbaba1234:
It is not a case of we don't know... It is a case of design and causality .. All of which using common sense point to a creator and a designer. It is common sense.

Whether there are other creatures in the universe is irrelevant to this argument, Our solar system moves in particular patterns. A rationally thinking person can only think design.

No

tbaba1234:
I look at road networks and i do not assume it got formed randomly or that i do not know... I know there is a designer.

You mean roads with tar linking human made cities? Good for you, so do I. This doesn't apply to nature though

tbaba1234:
Actually, the Quran encourages us to look into the universe, the more we learn about the Universe , the more you would be certain of the existence of a God. That is why early and medevial muslim scholars were also scientists.

Yet I remember a certain someone saying evolution should not be taught in schools. I also look at your bh bros that insist the world is flat (apparently it says so in one of your story books), and your palestinian bros shooting a girl for having the temerity to go to school.

tbaba1234:
This is a common sense issue. Apply it.

Do try to do that

tbaba1234:
Look at the human brain... One of the most complicated systems in the world. You look at it and all you see is a designer. The DNA, the weather patterns.. You attribute a mobile phone to design and more complex working designs to chance.

This is the irrationality of atheist thought.

There seems to be a pattern, a system to how every thing works... Applying our common sense, we see that and know it was designed. Everywhere you turn, everything you look at...

Do you know how many diseases your immune system saves you from everyday. you will be dead without one. The white blood cells are affected by food and other habits (alcohol, smoking etc). There are times that they could be down and we need drugs. It does not take away at all from their effectiveness and an indication to design.

This grand conspiracy to keep us alive.

Common sense will not attribute any of these to luck or chance. The odds are too mind-boggling

Otherwise i can attribute anything to chance, I can say you fell out of the sky... At least, there is a chance... It does not matter how ridiculous the odds are.

This is the irrationality of atheism.

We've done this, above. Don't know != god. God, especially as you described above with the many assumptions, is a laughably bad concept. If you weren't indoctrinated, trained in critical thinking and heard yourself speak you'd probably be laughing your a$$ off as well.

tbaba1234:
Of course chance... And you fell off the sky... wait, wait, but there is a chance...

Yes, chance. But the constants need some work, so does evolution, so does virtually all science actually. That's how it works, we'll eventually figure this out, not sit around comically on our on our behinds and shout god at everything like those bushmen with the coke bottle in the "gods must be crazy"

tbaba1234:
The master-slave illustration was just that (an illustration).. You did not address the point. Arguing from a position of Ignorance is silly.

You see,the main problem with many atheists is not necessary the existence of a God. It is the Idea of being obedient and subservient to that God. It is an arrogant mentality.

You're an atheist? You've taken polls? And being blindly subservient to anything whatsoever is a very valid concern. Perhaps you'd enjoy being blindly subservient to say hitler, yes?

tbaba1234:
Muslim societies have their challenges today but we see that they were the most progressive in the past particularly when they were ruled with Islam. A myriad of factors, political and social are responsible not necessarily godliness.

And yes, the model of 1400 years worked for centuries and would still work today if properly implemented.

Have you looked at the muslim world? How one blatantly lies like this is beyond me. I hope it's genuine brainwashing, my good "enjoying life in the west" brah.

tbaba1234:
I did not make any assertion about godliness... I pointed out that the OP's idea of changing the world through godlessness is baseless and is of zero value.

But then again, go ahead with your evangelism.

And the bold faced lying again? Where do you see evangelism? Have I not made it
clear that godlessness is not necessarily the best solution? Have I preached or pleaded with you to toss out your religion? I did not even say you made an assertion about godliness, I said if you're trying to imply so then you're clearly wrong. I was careful about that in case you didn't notice. And you still do, asserting a system designed long before today's modern world could somehow work, or is superior to the west's. Another risible notion. The west is far from perfect, but current evidence suggests we do not have much better, and even if we did it most certainly does not seem to be available in theocracies.

The existence of god arguments have to do with the notion that your theocracies are somewhat superior because they're divinely inspired, a completely unfounded, risible and nonsensical one.


Too much time wasted on this already...

As for my ancestors, you have a better theory with evidence to back it up? Like you've already noted it would be silly for me to assume I didn't have any considering the very clear and undeniable evidence that people have children, and those children have children, etc etc. That, is clear and irrefutable evidence that the cycle of life and death takes place, simple logic demands I assume I had ancestors, as macroscopic objects just don't pop into existence regularly, no? We have plenty of evidence to support their not popping out of nowhere as well.

But your supernatural sky daddy, what's the evidence for that? Yes, we cannot see, hear or touch him in any way. We cannot measure anything about him, perform any sort of tests or verify his predictions. Nought. We just have a story book you claim is divinely inspired, a rather hate filled one at that. If that's your evidence don't waste my time. You don't see me wasting yours with tales about r'hllor despite his being much more awesome than allah.

So, please again explain to me how your analogy makes any sense again? There's evidence to suggest I had ancestors, all the laws of physics and biology point in that direction, these laws can be tested and verified. Allah? No, not so much. Randomly making $hit up does not equal evidence,

There is no randomly making stuff-up. Just applying common sense.

Same thing, The orderliness of physical laws also indicates design. Everything follows certain laws. You throw an apple up and it falls down everytime. 100%... There is very clear, undeniable evidence of design all around you. All you have to do is reflect.

It is through rational deduction and simple common sense.. You accuse a book of being hate-filled and you have not read it. So much for evidence.

There is no atheist, i have met that has been able to produce a successful counter-arguement and as expected you are failing woefully too..

Think and reflect... It is just common sense...Just like you have an ancestry...

Get out of this irrationality.

In mathematics, we can calculate the probability of everything. No matter how improbable, i can still give you a figure.

Blah, blah, LALALALA. Addressed as well

Not all the elements needed to make a phone exist naturally in the desert, that's a bold faced lie. Anyways, I see a rock in the desert I don't assume some magical being put it there. Same when I see weather and it's stellar complexity. These processes can and have been for the most part explained naturally. Details do need to be worked, but again, "I don't know" has never equaled "god did it". Ever. Like I already said, simple to complex. Energies interaction led to us. Nothing supernatural, no plans, etc etc

Let's examine your intelligent designer. Evolution and its 99 percent fail rate seems rather random and efficient, don't you think? Or simply the sun shining, happily wasting away the very vast majority of the energy it produces. Efficient, don't you think?

When I see scientists develop vaccines and avert disasters in a fraction of the time it would take nature to deal with them, I see what beings with intelligence and a purpose are capable in such a short space of time. When I see breeders turn wolves to dogs in a few years, I see efficiency and a purpose. Or even our own rather wasteful power generators, designed and built quickly, no where near as wasteful as the very purposeless sun, which took billions of years to form. Nature is mindless, purposeless, random. Simple

Conceivably, the materials needed for a mobile phone can be located in a region ...It does not matter how much random events happen ... You will not end up with order or a mobile phone.

The sun is purposeless... Now i know, you are not too bright... The Main source of energy on the earth that sustains all life. The main source of energy on the earth is purposeless. lol.... Without the sun, all life will disappear in not very long.

Maybe, I should explain this slowly..

The argument is not that of : I don't know... It is that of a causality and design.The complex weather patterns indicates design...This kind of design does not come out of randomness.... Imagine, i continuously and randomly drop atomic bombs on a junk-yard, even if all the parts needed to make a car is there, i do not end up with a rolls Royce. Such chaos, only leads to more chaos.

Point: The fact that we have order from seeming chaos is actually a pointer to design.... A pointer to a designer.... Meaning, It was not chaos at all. It was the way it was designed.

It is the only rational conclusion... The chance argument is something from fairy tale land.

Everything has a chance in mathematics, no matter how improbable.

And what happened to your first cause and its effects?

Or are you warming up to the idea that something can come from nothing. You do know that as far as modern science is concerned, something comes from nothing all the time? Though that picture is probably incomplete, so we can ignore that for now.

An infinite regress is absurd... I thought that was explained...

The Creator never began to exist... There is no question of something coming from nothing.

Humans create objects not found in nature all the time, are you saying their nature is not the same as the rest of the universe?

Another absurd assumption

Human create nothing, We just manipulate what already exist in nature... #anotherfail

Nonsense, see above for faulty premise.
And why can't the universe, with it's very random nature which explains the obvious purposlessness be the first cause? Because you say so?

Random?? lol

Not random at all... randomness does not give birth to such order... refer back to the Junk yard example #atheistfailagain..

You're an atheist? You've taken polls? And being blindly subservient to anything whatsoever is a very valid concern. Perhaps you'd enjoy being blindly subservient to say hitler, yes?

I have had a number of discussions with atheists and this is a common observation. It is based on my limited sample.

I am obedient because i am intellectually convinced of a God and of my religion.

Note: You failed woefully to give any kind of rebuttal to any point raised and i used just basic common sense arguments. Read the arguments and follow logically.

The irrationality of atheistic thought is exposed again for any neutral reader...

A love letter
Love is the most beautiful thing in the world. It makes the world go round so much so that even in its false forms, it still gladdens the heart at least while it lasts. It is a fundamental need of all human beings and I should add animals as well. Some of us in our search for love have been everywhere; we have experimented with people, we turned to pets, others have turned to money and others to materials. We all love to be loved.
At the root of rebellion, the cause of wars, the reason why there is murder, rape, kidnapping, terrorism and every kind of evil is the absence of love. Some of us have even rebelled against God because God has seemed not to care. We have queried; If he cared, why will my mother have died? If he truly loved me, Will my prayer not have been answered long ago? Why will I be born this disadvantaged if he was affectionately disposed towards me? Those may be facts which I may not be able to answer to but they are not the truth. Listen to the truth:
“Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love; Therefore with loving-kindness I have drawn you “ Jer. 31:3 (NKJV)
This is a love letter from God to you my friend. God has loved you with love that does not depend on whether you have been obedient to him or not; He has loved you with love that is kind to you whether you believe in him or not; Love that has patiently waited for you to come around. The love God has for you is such that believes the very best concerning you in spite of what everyone else has said or thinks. It is very different from the love Nlanders have for you and supersedes even the love of your parents. God’s Love for you respects your choice whether it agrees with his or not. His love for you is not selfless neither is it easily provoked. His love for you bears all things. What’s more, that love lasts forever.
You are the apple of God’s eye and you mean everything to him. God is so obsessed with you so much so that one in a certain place exclaimed;
“What is man that You are mindful of him, And the son of man that You visit him? “
Ps 8:4 (NKJV)
You’ve always been on the mind of God; You’ve always been in his agenda and that was what the devil saw that made him Jealous so much so that he brought a row between you and your God. But God whose love does not give up on you as long as it is called today (Ps 95:7, made the first move at reconciliation. He sought you and has continued to seek you out. There was absolutely nothing he considered unexpendable in his quest for reconciliation.
He strategized and executed the strategy step by step and finally it culminated in the death, burial and resurrection of the lord Jesus Christ which was the necessary and sufficient requirement for your redemption back to God. Finally Christ settled that age long row and made it possible for you to regain you lost place in God. The devil whose mission statement is to steal, kill and destroy (Jn10:10) also has continued to work on us making that wonderful plan of God which ultimately conquered the devil (col2:14, 15) seem like foolishness to us.
Praise God however that in his everlasting love, He calls your attention today to what he did for you. He is saying my love for you is the reason you are still here and I interested in you. Listen to that in the words of Revelations 3:20 (TLB);
"Look! I have been standing at the door, and I am constantly knocking. If anyone hears me calling him and opens the door, I will come in and fellowship with him and he with me. “
God is right there where you are, open the door of your heart and invite him in today with this simple prayer in faith:
Lord Jesus, I thank you for loving me so much as to accept to die on the cross so that I might be delivered from the extremely unfortunate dilemma of sin and death which I inherited. Today, I have read your word and I believe your death was the death of my sinful nature, your burial was the burial of my sinful nature and your resurrection is the resurrection of my God-nature.
Forgive me my sins and cleanse me from my unrighteousness. Thank you for removing my old sinful and stony heart and replacing it with a heart of flesh inbuilt with desires that please you. Thank you also for giving me the power to live right and to do good.
Take over my whole life and lead me in the paths of righteousness for your name sake from today onwards in Jesus name I pray. Amen.

NOTE
If you prayed this prayer, we will like you to know that even though nothing might have changed on the outward just like nothing changed physically for Adam and Eve after the fall. You must however know that you have become a completely new person on the inside. A new life has begun. 2 Cor 5:17(TLB) says, “When someone becomes a Christian, he becomes a brand new person inside. He is not the same anymore. A new life has begun!”
To this end, we urge you to please do the following:
1. Identify with a Bible-believing church and/or group of Christians around you.
2. Cultivate the habit of praying regularly.
3. Regularly and prayerfully study the word of God.
4. Openly share and preach your new found faith.
I look forward to celebrating side by side with you someday in heaven. You can reach me for further help on goldtraeces@gmail.com.

tbaba1234:

There is no randomly making stuff-up. Just applying common sense.

Do tell, where is allah? I've been waiting. Did he do the 7 day trick as well.

tbaba1234:
Same thing, The orderliness of physical laws also indicates design. Everything follows certain laws. You throw an apple up and it falls down everytime. 100%... There is very clear, undeniable evidence of design all around you. All you have to do is reflect.

It is through rational deduction and simple common sense..

I'm not sure you're qualified to be talking about common sense. It's taking a while to explain this to you as you seem intent on proving you're either stoopid, deluded or the happy slave willing to blindly do anything for his master.

Let's take the sun you say has a purpose, if the purpose was to support carbon based life, and in particular us, undeniable evidence of design would have been something that directed the brunt of energy to us, or at least a far more efficient system of supplying power for our needs. So, efficiency with how it was set up and it's design, also, lack of any other viable explanations after all the possible alternatives has been examined We don't jump to 'god did this' when stumped, you agree, yes?. As for efficiency we have this.

http://helios.gsfc.nasa.gov/qa_sun.html#power

nasa:
The Sun's output is 3.8 x 1033 ergs/second, or about 5 x 1023 horsepower. How much is that? It is enough energy to melt a bridge of ice 2 miles wide, 1 mile thick, and extending the entire way from the Earth to the Sun, in one second.

http://www.boston.com/news/science/articles/2005/09/05/how_much_energy_does_the_sun_produce/

boston paper:
The sun radiates uniformly in all directions, mainly visible light and infrared radiation, and we can calculate the total amount of energy radiated by measuring the quantity of solar energy/second reaching every square meter of Earth and then multiplying that by the total surface area of a sphere with radius equal to the radius of Earth orbit. We get the astonishingly huge amount of 400 trillion trillion watts. To put this into a crazy context, every second the sun produces the same energy as about a trillion 1 megaton bombs! In one second, our sun produces enough energy for almost 500,000 years of the current needs of our so-called civilization. If only we could collect it all and use it!

That's an excellent and purposeful design, I agree. It perfectly suits our needs.

As for how it was setup, we know of gravities effects, yes? We know it capable of doing its thing after millenia, yes? Natural occurring phenomena which we know exist, left on its own even on paper we can project how stars would form (and did indeed come up with numbers like 98% of matter would be hydrogen/helium before it was actually confirmed, by looking at the big ba.ng model), same with evolution, same with planet formation. So, for star formation:

wiki:
The Sun was formed about 4.57 billion years ago from the collapse of part of a giant molecular cloud that consisted mostly of hydrogen and helium and which probably gave birth to many other stars.[103] This age is estimated using computer models of stellar evolution and through nucleocosmochronology.[9] The result is consistent with the radiometric date of the oldest Solar System material, at 4.567 billion years ago.[104][105] Studies of ancient meteorites reveal traces of stable daughter nuclei of short-lived isotopes, such as iron-60, that form only in exploding, short-lived stars. This indicates that one or more supernovae must have occurred near the location where the Sun formed. A shock wave from a nearby supernova would have triggered the formation of the Sun by compressing the gases within the molecular cloud, and causing certain regions to collapse under their own gravity.[106] As one fragment of the cloud collapsed it also began to rotate due to conservation of angular momentum and heat up with the increasing pressure. Much of the mass became concentrated in the center, while the rest flattened out into a disk which would become the planets and other solar system bodies. Gravity and pressure within the core of the cloud generated a lot of heat as it accreted more gas from the surrounding disk, eventually triggering nuclear fusion. Thus, the Sun was born.

Great, so our intelligent designer had to wait 10 billion years for his gloriously brilliant plan to finally form a star for our needs, add a further 4 billion to come up with us, his very special kids. He really is a genius.

Good brah, given the numbers, this sure as hell looks like chance to me. I do not know where from you deem this purpose, or even where you see this order. That's frankly, foo.lish wishful thinking you need to make yourself feel better. The evidence certainly doesn't indicate that. The evidence indicates chaos and a good deal of chance.

What you have been saying is that we won the lottery by design. That's nonsense, what sort of foo.lish designer would rely on chance, hmm? Gambling on a wildly unpredictable 14 billion year plan? How stoopid is that? Now, again, this is what we know: we won the lottery. We now want to figure out how. Asserting our irrational designer is patently silly (not to mention begging questions), a cowardly cop out we've taken how many times now? One viable option is to consider the possibility of the lottery taking place at any give time zillions of times, ie, the multiverse. Our universe then turns out to be one that is capable of supporting life, or won the lottery in my speak. However, even that will remain a hypothesis until we can get some undeniable evidence.

tbaba:
You accuse a book of being hate-filled and you have not read it. So much for evidence.

http://commentarama..com/2011/03/quran-book-of-hate.html

GOD!:

● “Slay the nonbelievers wherever you find them. Drive them out.” (2:190)

● “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels out to the last.’” (8:7)

● “. . . kill the disbelievers wherever we find them. . .” (2:191)

● “Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers.” (8:12)

● “I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.” (8:12)

● “Strike off the heads of the disbelievers” and make a “wide slaughter among them.” (47:4)

● ”Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them.” (8:59)

● “. . . fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.” (9:5)

● “A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. . . Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.” (Ishaw:327)

GOD! again:

Qur’an 3:56 “As for those disbelieving infidels, I will punish them with a terrible agony in this world and the next. They have no one to help or save them.”

Qur’an 4.89 They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

Qur’an 5:51 “Muslims, do not make friends with any but your own people.”

Qur’an 5:72 “They are surely infidels who say; ‘God is the Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.”

Qur’an 8:12 cp. 8:60 “Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers”; “smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them”

Qur’an 2:191 “...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them”

Qur’an 9.33 He it is Who sent His Apostle with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions.

Qur’an 2:193 “And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah”

Qur’an 8:71 And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He GAVE YOU MASTERY OVER THEM

Qur’an 8:55 Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve.

Qur’an 22:19-22 “fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem” “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

Qur’an 48:13 Those who “believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!”

Qur’an 3:54 “‘Lord, we believe in Your revelations (the Torah and Gospels) and follow this Apostle (Jesus). Enroll us among the witnesses.’ But the Christians contrived a plot and Allah did the same; but Allah’s plot was the best.”

Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”

Qur’an 8:58 “If you apprehend treachery from any group on the part of a people (with whom you have a treaty), retaliate by breaking off (relations) with them. The infidels should not think they can bypass (Islamic law or the punishment of Allah). Surely they cannot escape.”

Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.’”

Qur’an 8:39 “So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.”

Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah’s enemy.”

Qur’an 8:60 “Prepare against them (non-Muslims) whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah (non-Muslims), and others besides them not known to you. Whatever you spend in Allah’s Cause will be repaid in full, and no wrong will be done to you.”

Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.’”

Qur’an 4:101 “The unbelievers (non-Muslims) are your inveterate foe.”

Qur’an 8:60 “Prepare against them (non-Muslims) whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah (non-Muslims), and others besides them not known to you. Whatever you spend in Allah’s Cause will be repaid in full, and no wrong will be done to you.”

And there plenty more where that came from. Other sources? Google is your friend

https://www.google.com.ng/search?num=30&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=Skw&tbo=d&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=quran+hate+verses

This though has a particular count

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html

So, let's look at the meaning of the word hate, shall we?

https://www.google.com.ng/search?q=hate+definition&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

google:
hate
/hāt/
Verb
Feel intense or passionate dislike for (someone): "the boys hate each other".
Noun
Intense or passionate dislike: "feelings of hate".
Synonyms
verb. detest - abhor - loathe - abominate - execrate - dislike
noun. hatred - odium - abhorrence - detestation - loathing

If you don't think the above qualifies as hate, perhaps we should look at the word stoopid (save this definition for future use, we'll need it)
https://www.google.com.ng/search?num=30&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=OcH&tbo=d&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=stupid+definition

google:
stu·pid
/ˈst(y)o͞opid/
Adjective
Lacking intelligence or common sense.
Noun
A stupid person (often used as a term of address): "you're not a coward, stupid!".
Synonyms
adjective. foolish - dull - obtuse - dense - fatuous - idiotic
noun. fool - goof - tomfool - booby - dolt - slowpoke

Wait, islamophobia? Or perhaps I have to learn a dead language before I understand those verses?

tbaba:
There is no atheist, i have met that has been able to produce a successful counter-arguement and as expected you are failing woefully too..

I agree, it would seem that way to a tool.

tbaba:

Think and reflect... It is just common sense...Just like you have an ancestry...

Get out of this irrationality.

In mathematics, we can calculate the probability of everything. No matter how improbable, i can still give you a figure.

For the love of your good allah, think of what? Perhaps you want me to make $hit up? This is the only bit of data you have in your equation; SOMETHING EXISTS. I've stated this how many times now? The rest is pure hogwash, my good deluded bent on spreading cancer. Or do you think your claims are any more valid than mine about Pikkiwokki? In what shape, form or manner pls? You haven't shown anything but assumptions....assumptions..assumptions...assumptions...

tbaba:
Conceivably, the materials needed for a mobile phone can be located in a region ...It does not matter how much random events happen ... You will not end up with order or a mobile phone.

Quit this silly nonsense, they cannot. Raw materials and parts are imported, assembled and what not from different regions of the globe to give you your phone. Fact.

tbaba:
The sun is purposeless... Now i know, you are not too bright... The Main source of energy on the earth that sustains all life. The main source of energy on the earth is purposeless. lol.... Without the sun, all life will disappear in not very long.

Maybe, I should explain this slowly..

The argument is not that of : I don't know... It is that of a causality and design.The complex weather patterns indicates design...This kind of design does not come out of randomness.... Imagine, i continuously and randomly drop atomic bombs on a junk-yard, even if all the parts needed to make a car is there, i do not end up with a rolls Royce. Such chaos, only leads to more chaos.

Point: The fact that we have order from seeming chaos is actually a pointer to design.... A pointer to a designer.... Meaning, It was not chaos at all. It was the way it was designed.

It is the only rational conclusion... The chance argument is something from fairy tale land.

Everything has a chance in mathematics, no matter how improbable.

Yes, I see, every single effect in the universe has a purpose. So when I take a piss, I notice it squirting off the wc, I suppose purposefully. Maybe it wants to get out of the way. You know, I think the same happens when taking a $hit, water splashes so I think it's trying to get out of the way. Very clever of the water don't you think?

Oh yes of course, allah was the very special designer through all the chaos, my bad. The genius spent 14 billion years cooking this up so he could star in big brother earth. Add the zillions of stars wasting energy elsewhere else as well. We cannot forget the many nice touches, like how water will clean my ass perfectly when I'm done with this dump, boosting my chances of avoiding myriad possible infections that would otherwise gladly kill me. Of course other little nice touches like the completely unnecessary vestigial organs are here with an excellent purpose, all brilliantly designed by an omnipotent.

tbaba:
An infinite regress is absurd... I thought that was explained...

The Creator never began to exist... There is no question of something coming from nothing.

Infinity is impossible, yet you think time is infinite? I suppose your god also has quite a few other infinities as well, yes? This may be beyond your comprehension levels, so we'll just leave it at that, for now...

tbaba:
Human create nothing, We just manipulate what already exist in nature... #anotherfail

You seem to have skipped chemistry classes

http://www.wisegeek.com/how-many-elements-on-the-periodic-table-of-the-elements-occur-naturally.htm

magazine:
The answer to the question of how many objects on the periodic table of the elements are naturally occurring is actually a bit complicated. Conventional wisdom says that the first 92 elements, from element one, hydrogen, to element 92, uranium, are all naturally occurring, but in fact some of these elements are highly unstable, and have only been observed when they have been created artificially.

I'm also waiting for us to actually pull off a true vacuum, but that may take some work or be impossible. Also, I'm not sure if antimatter qualifies, I don't think we've observed it in nature yet but we've created some in labs. But yes, antimatter is probably available in this universe naturally.

Btw, how do you think theoretical physics works? And please hold on to that definition of stoopid from earlier.

You could get away with indicating humans cannot add to the total amount of energy in the universe, and that could perhaps be true, but that's not what I meant. And again, read up, something comes from nothing all the time in this universe, but the picture may not be complete so we can ignore that for now.

tbaba:

Random?? lol

Not random at all... randomness does not give birth to such order... refer back to the Junk yard example #atheistfailagain..

See above. Excellent 14 billion year old ordered plan there plan allah etc etc.

tbaba:
I have had a number of discussions with atheists and this is a common observation. It is based on my limited sample.

I am obedient because i am intellectually convinced of a God and of my religion.

Note: You failed woefully to give any kind of rebuttal to any point raised and i used just basic common sense arguments. Read the arguments and follow logically.

The irrationality of atheistic thought is exposed again for any neutral reader...

You are good slave, nothing new to see here. And a silly lie or attempt at obfuscation this is. Would you, yes or no, kill all the first borns in a city if it were within your means and your god commanded you to? In fact, easy mode, would you sacrifice your son like abraham was about to? Yes or no would do.

As to I have not addressed your issues, well. See the pic below, just replace 'xtian' with 'muslim'

Now to the crux, to claim you somehow have evidence of any sort to back up your claims is; stoopid. Look up the definition above in case you forget what it means. To also claim some theocracy is better than what the west has to offer is also stoopid my good hypocrite. These are my assertions, don't delude yourself into thinking I'm interested in winning any 'souls' or any such nonsense, I don't care. I'm just calling you out on your drivel, and I do care about your nonsense striding too close inflicting harm on my or others' rights. That of course depends on you getting your way with your beloved theocracy. So, I will call you out when I see your nonsense from time to time, just to remind you and others how silly your assertions are.

I'm not sure you're qualified to be talking about common sense. It's taking a while to explain this to you as you seem intent on proving you're either stoopid, deluded or the happy slave willing to blindly do anything for his master.

Let's take the sun you say has a purpose, if the purpose was to support carbon based life, and in particular us, undeniable evidence of design would have been something that directed the brunt of energy to us, or at least a far more efficient system of supplying power for our needs. So, efficiency with how it was set up and it's design, also, lack of any other viable explanations after all the possible alternatives has been examined We don't jump to 'god did this' when stumped, you agree, yes?. As for efficiency we have this.

http://helios.gsfc.nasa.gov/qa_sun.html#power


That's an excellent and purposeful design, I agree. It perfectly suits our needs.

As for how it was setup, we know of gravities effects, yes? We know it capable of doing its thing after millenia, yes? Natural occurring phenomena which we know exist, left on its own even on paper we can project how stars would form (and did indeed come up with numbers like 98% of matter would be hydrogen/helium before it was actually confirmed, by looking at the big ba.ng model), same with evolution, same with planet formation. So, for star formation:

Great, so our intelligent designer had to wait 10 billion years for his gloriously brilliant plan to finally form a star for our needs, add a further 4 billion to come up with us, his very special kids. He really is a genius.

Good brah, given the numbers, this sure as hell looks like chance to me. I do not know where from you deem this purpose, or even where you see this order. That's frankly, foo.lish wishful thinking you need to make yourself feel better. The evidence certainly doesn't indicate that.

Your points

I. Why does it (the sun) not serve only us??

II. Why did it take so long??

You talk about the sun... All you have presented is the fact that we as humans have not been able to harness the energy efficiently the sun offers to our planet.

The sun already provides energy nfor us... All we need to do is to look for better ways to access it.

Yes, He is a genius... In all of human existence, we still haven't figured out a way to harness the sun.

Back to the Junk yard: Do you think that after blowing up the Junk-yard for billions of years, we will end up with a rolls royce...

You might not like the amount of time it takes but it is still proof for design. Time and space are constructs we understand because we live in the Universe.

A creator must exist outside the Universe to create it, therefore those constructs do not matter to Him.

Do you know how small the earth is in the scheme of things?? And we are talking about the sun been created over a period of "earth time?

Using 'earth time' for the one who created the universe seems like a foolhardy thing to do... Like seriously, Do you know how small the earth is?? Do you know how massive the Universe is??

I think the problem here is your frame of reference. As a human, 4.5 billion human years might seem like a lot but for one who created the whole universe and is not bounded by it. That is no time at all..

Another faulty, faulty argument...

Chance would not create precision in our universe... The Sun serves other purposes as well in the solar system. All planets revolve around it and some of those planets are absolutely essential for our survival here..

The chance hypothesis gets weaker and weaker the more you look..

Your time point must be one of the silliest things, i have heard in a while...

http://commentarama..com/2011/03/quran-book-of-hate.html

I asked you to read the book and form your own opinions not to quote from website...

Imagine i said: wiegraf fought against those who attacked him and killed one of the them

And a person quotes: Wiegraf killed one of them.

Are they the same thing.. Now let's examine the disingenousness of your Quotes

Quote 1: “Slay the nonbelievers wherever you find them. Drive them out.” (2:190)

Real Quote: Fight in God’s cause against those who fight you, but do not overstep the limits:c God does not love those who overstep the limits. (2:190)

Quote 2: “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels out to the last.’” (8:7)

Real Quote: Remember how God promised you [believers] that one of the two enemy groups would fall to you: you wanted the unarmed group to be yours, but it was God’s will to establish the truth according to His Word and to finish off the disbelievers– (8:7)

(Obviously talking about a previous military victory, the battle of badr)

Quote 3: “. . . kill the disbelievers wherever we find them. . .” (2:191)

Real Quote: (starting from 190):Fight in God’s cause against those who fight you, but do not overstep the limits: God does not love those who overstep the limits. Kill them wherever you encounter them,and drive them out from where they drove you out, for persecution is more serious than killing.Do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque unless they fight you there. If they do fight you, kill them– this is what such disbelievers deserve– but if they stop, then God is most forgiving and merciful. Fight them until there is no more persecution, and worship is devoted to God. If they cease hostilities, there can be no [further] hostility, except towards aggressors (2:190-193)

I could go on and on... This is intellectual laziness at its peak... Read the book and develop your own opinions..

I have studied much of the Quran including the historical context of most of the Ayat (translated as verses) so i could go into a detailed discussion on many of its ayat....

I do not need google for that. I have studied most of the Quran . You are talking to an educated muslim, at least show a bit of intelligence when discussing Islam

Do yourself a favour because this kind of intellectual laziness is embarrassing.

If i go to a website with a clear agenda to show Islam as bad or evil what do you expect to get?? Get a translation and read for yourself.

For the love of your good allah, think of what? Perhaps you want me to make $hit up? This is the only bit of data you have in your equation; SOMETHING EXISTS. I've stated this how many times now? The rest is pure hogwash, my good deluded bent on spreading cancer. Or do you think your claims are any more valid than mine about Pikkiwokki? In what shape, form or manner pls? You haven't shown anything but assumptions....assumptions..assumptions...assumptions...

Go back and read again...

i.The Universe began to exist and hence has a cause. In all of human experience, we observe this to be the case. Not an assumption

ii. The Universe shows design everywhere we look, We leads to rationally conclude that it has a designer given the fact that in all of human experience, a design indicates a designer. Not an assumption

iii. The Universe has an intelligent designer because the more we study.. we find more incredible things, the one who designed the human brain must be very intelligent. The designer is definitely Intelligent. Not an assumption

iv. From all of human experience, this kind of order does not come from chaos.. Order comes from design. Not an assumption

v. The Universe has a creator with a Will. The Universe began to exist at a point in time. This means the designer willed it to exist. Not an assumption

vi. This Intelligent creator exists outside the Universe because to create it, He must exist outside it. If i am buiding a house, i must necessarily exist outside the house. Not an assumption

vii. This means He is not bounded by the laws of this Universe and operates outside those laws... Not an assumption

Viii. This Intelligent creator/designer with a will not bounded by the laws of the Universe is what We call God.

No assumption was made, It is simple rational deduction from human experience. What we call common sense.

Quit this silly nonsense, they cannot. Raw materials and parts are imported, assembled and what not from different regions of the globe to give you your phone. Fact.

No, it is very poosible to get all raw material in one place, like the junkyard

2. The desert (having Oil and trace metals) is actually a very good example because Oil-plastic, Sand -glass/silicon chip, trace metal: circuit board etc..

Okay maybe a phone is too complex for random events, a mirror, glass , plastic... anything??

Chaos brings about just more chaos..

You seem to have skipped chemistry classes

http://www.wisegeek.com/how-many-elements-on-the-periodic-table-of-the-elements-occur-naturally.htm

The answer to the question of how many objects on the periodic table of the elements are naturally occurring is actually a bit complicated. Conventional wisdom says that the first 92 elements, from element one, hydrogen, to element 92, uranium, are all naturally occurring, but in fact some of these elements are highly unstable, and have only been observed when they have been created artificially.

Having a controlled environment is the only way to observe them... We simply manipulate other things that exist in the universe to 'create them". That is not creation.... A mobile phone does not exist in nature so i manipulate other materials to make it.

Making these elements involve manipulating elements and compounds that already exist in Nature in a controlled environment.

That is not creation, dude... I think i might be lowering my IQ at this rate discussing with you.

Like i said, Humans do not create, we simply manipulate what exists in nature.

I'm also waiting for us to actually pull off a true vacuum, but that may take some work or be impossible. Also, I'm not sure if antimatter qualifies, I don't think we've observed it in nature yet but we've created some in labs. But yes, antimatter is probably available in this universe naturally.

Keep waiting! when we get there.


You have

i. Presented a time argument which is silly considering who we are talking about.

ii. Shown intellectual dishonesty and laziness by misquoting ayat of the Quran... No understanding of historical context or proper study, Quoting sites named :answeringIslam

iii. Claimed 'creation' out of something made in the lab.

The more i look at your claims, i understand why you would choose something as irrational as atheism. Maybe you did fall out of the sky.... Maybe i could figure out the mathematical probability of that. At least there is a chance.

The chance hypothesis is quite hilarious, fairy tale stuff...

Keep trying.. Maybe you will come up with something half-decent in your next post. And keep your resentment towards God on the low, we are trying to have a discussion as two humans. This kind of rebellion only makes you come across as having nothing good to say.

Note: I would not respond to your next post, if it contains any insult to God.

tbaba1234:

Your points

I. Why does it (the sun) not serve only us??

II. Why did it take so long??

You talk about the sun... All you have presented is the fact that we as humans have not been able to harness the energy efficiently the sun offers to our planet.

The sun already provides energy nfor us... All we need to do is to look for better ways to access it.

Yes, He is a genius... In all of human existence, we still haven't figured out a way to harness the sun.

Erm yes, what did this address? You rambled on then ended with "He is a genius". Why? Because you say so? Ah, he left stuff as is to play hide and seek. *smh* perhaps a simpler reason would be because it didn't come about with any sort of purpose at all? Just a thought.

tbaba1234:
Back to the Junk yard: Do you think that after blowing up the Junk-yard for billions of years, we will end up with a rolls royce...

I did spend a lot of time showing you there's no rolls royce anywhere, yes? Nothing that cannot be explained naturally, yes? Even if details are scrappy for some things, yes? I also spent some good time with "I don't know" != "God did it", you even seemed to somewhat agree (so you don't look silly). Yet here we are. Curious.

tbaba1234:
You might not like the amount of time it takes but it is still proof for design. Time and space are constructs we understand because we live in the Universe.

A creator must exist outside the Universe to create it, therefore those constructs do not matter to Him.

Assumption. Because you say so nonsense, again...

Let's start from here. Try not to miss it. You've heard of the universe in black hole theories, yes? Not full theories, but that's besides the point

http://www.insidescience.org/content/every-black-hole-contains-new-universe/566

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/7918978/A-universe-could-exist-inside-every-black-hole-claims-scientist.html

telegraph:
He concluded that it was possible for a whole new universe to exist inside every black hole, which could mean that our own universe could be inside a black hole as well.

It is hard to see how we could test whether or not Dr Poplawski's theory is correct; the force of gravity in black holes is such that nothing can escape, so no information about what is going on inside one can ever reach us.

In theory we could build a black hole. In theory it's also virtually impossible to interact with anything beyond it's event horizon. So what do we have here? A situation where one could theoretically build a universe he has no control over whatsoever (except possibly some initial conditions, not sure of even that though). And this is just an option, probably others I've never come across or haven't thought of.

Really, why in the world do you make these assumptions? It's beyond me, even without bringing up this example it seems a silly thing to assume. You create something means you automatically control it fully? Heck, you could breed, train a lion and it might still have you as a tasty snack without any compunction. Build a computer system that comes back to lock you out. Or even simpler to home, build a building you can't jump over, see? No matter what one does, you cannot divide by zero in any universe, even your 'omnipotent' god can't overcome that I'm afraid. He might set up some rules for his universe but even he wouldn't be able to break them, just like we wouldn't be able to interact with our baby universe. As for time and space, there are still are LAWS guiding them, wherever he would be. If he he were capable of logical absurdities, well, you're now strictly in the zone of nonsense, and obviously nothing will ever satisfy you (frankly, you're already in that zone, but I'm humoring you).

Really, why do I have to point this out? We'll deal some more with this bit of nonsense: "A creator must exist outside the Universe to create it", some more in a bit

tbaba1234:
Do you know how small the earth is in the scheme of things?? And we are talking about the sun been created over a period of "earth time?

Using 'earth time' for the one who created the universe seems like a foolhardy thing to do... Like seriously, Do you know how small the earth is?? Do you know how massive the Universe is??

I think the problem here is your frame of reference. As a human, 4.5 billion human years might seem like a lot but for one who created the whole universe and is not bounded by it. That is no time at all..

So, you do understand just how puny and insignificant we are yet you think all this was setup just so your dog allah could tell you not to eat pork? Do you understand how asinine that sounds? Wtf is wrong with you?

I'll help you out here, he could be flying about in a starship near the speed of light, and only 7 days of his time would have passed since the event 14 billion years ago (in keeping with genesis of course), it changes nothing. It's still a ridiculously inept way to go about doing things. Again, this would be akin to basing your plans on winning the lottery, a patently absurd notion for our omnipotent oga. Also again, to what purpose, so he could watch a stoning or two? This vast universe just for us? I mean wtf??

tbaba1234:
Another faulty, faulty argument...

Chance would not create precision in our universe... The Sun serves other purposes as well in the solar system. All planets revolve around it and some of those planets are absolutely essential for our survival here..

The chance hypothesis gets weaker and weaker the more you look..

Your time point must be one of the silliest things, i have heard in a while...

...The sun serves other purposes, just for us. That really is mor.onic. If I were an omnipotent watching humanity your hubris alone would be enough for me to damn all humanity to hell forever. The arrogance is truly staggering. Seems you'll sink to any low to try and fit stuff into your narrative. Everything must work to fulfill some sort of purpose for you god's goals, which seems to be watching you get your 4 wives. Like the parasites in your gut, specially made just for you to aid your digestion. Beautiful design. Or the billions of stars radiating pointlessly into the cosmos. I suppose they're there just to give us a great view. Like I said, I agree, wonderful design everywhere. Everything in the right place, balanced so precariously just for us.

tbaba1234:
I asked you to read the book and form your own opinions not to quote from website...

Imagine i said: wiegraf fought against those who attacked him and killed one of the them

And a person quotes: Wiegraf killed one of them.

Are they the same thing.. Now let's examine the disingenousness of your Quotes

Quote 1: “Slay the nonbelievers wherever you find them. Drive them out.” (2:190)

Real Quote: Fight in God’s cause against those who fight you, but do not overstep the limits:c God does not love those who overstep the limits. (2:190)

Quote 2: “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels out to the last.’” (8:7)

Real Quote: Remember how God promised you [believers] that one of the two enemy groups would fall to you: you wanted the unarmed group to be yours, but it was God’s will to establish the truth according to His Word and to finish off the disbelievers– (8:7)

(Obviously talking about a previous military victory, the battle of badr)

Quote 3: “. . . kill the disbelievers wherever we find them. . .” (2:191)

Real Quote: (starting from 190):Fight in God’s cause against those who fight you, but do not overstep the limits: God does not love those who overstep the limits. Kill them wherever you encounter them,and drive them out from where they drove you out, for persecution is more serious than killing.Do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque unless they fight you there. If they do fight you, kill them– this is what such disbelievers deserve– but if they stop, then God is most forgiving and merciful. Fight them until there is no more persecution, and worship is devoted to God. If they cease hostilities, there can be no [further] hostility, except towards aggressors (2:190-193)

I could go on and on... This is intellectual laziness at its peak... Read the book and develop your own opinions..

I have studied much of the Quran including the historical context of most of the Ayat (translated as verses) so i could go into a detailed discussion on many of its ayat....

I do not need google for that. I have studied most of the Quran . You are talking to an educated muslim, at least show a bit of intelligence when discussing Islam

Do yourself a favour because this kind of intellectual laziness is embarrassing.

If i go to a website with a clear agenda to show Islam as bad or evil what do you expect to get?? Get a translation and read for yourself.

Nah, I do not have time for that nonsense. Get that through that cement block you have up there in your head. There's absolutely no reason for me to read harry potter to tell you it's hogwash. As to your translation, well everyone can spin it any way they wish, no? I should take your word because? You did notice the google link I left asides from the two sites I quoted, yes? You saw the nice long list of sources corroborating their own interpretions, yes? If you can't find the link, simply google Islam and Kaffir and report the results here honestly.

One thing I can confirm from my own personal experiences, if that's what pleases you, is muslims are hostile. Undeniably so. I am from a muslim family mind you, and have spent considerable portions of my life in the north, but I'll classify my opinions on this as anecdotal. To be fair, not all of you are douches, but I wouldn't say Islam encouraged they're being reasonable, at all. Instead, it unquestionably fuels hostility. Us vs them nonsense, of course from the religion of peace

And you ignore the 100 pound gorilla, as expected from a tool. Actually, I'm certain you don't see a problem, so you might not be ignoring but being blissfully and willfully blinded. This; ISLAM CONDONES VIOLENCE. Spin it however you want, for a religion, a group of beliefs built around faith in supernatural beings, by its very definition irrational, to be condoning violence of any sort is the height of folly. You're here condoning stoning ffs, while your brother's were flying jets into buildings and shooting girls for going to school. When xtians want to be d1cks, they have to look hard to find an excuse to do so (so long as they ignore OT). Islam, the religion of peace, on the other hand? No, not so much. Jihad is even glorified. This won't get through to you though, my happy slave, so time to move on.

tbaba1234:
Go back and read again...

i.The Universe began to exist and hence has a cause. In all of human experience, we observe this to be the case. Not an assumption

Yes assumption, it being this universe is not the first cause. Or you know it isn't how? You want first cause to be an infinite eternal? Then why can't this universe be part of that infinite eternal, hmm, say going through a particular phase? Does it have to be something wholly created new? So many other alternatives to this.

tbaba1234:
ii. The Universe shows design everywhere we look, We leads to rationally conclude that it has a designer given the fact that in all of human experience, a design indicates a designer. Not an assumption

I doesn't, at all. It is extremely haphazard in nature. You're simply descended from apes that luckily acquired genes to support intelligence. They won the lottery, so to speak, other species didn't. You're now here making $hit up.

Designed billions of stars just for you...

tbaba1234:
iii. The Universe has an intelligent designer because the more we study.. we find more incredible things, the one who designed the human brain must be very intelligent. The designer is definitely Intelligent. Not an assumption

Assumption as above, faulty premise. See fractals below, google game of life like I told you earlier.

tbaba1234:
iv. From all of human experience, this kind of order does not come from chaos.. Order comes from design. Not an assumption

Nope, faulty premise. Stoopid assumption. And fractals in nature need some sort of designer?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal

We'll come back to order as well below...

tbaba1234:
v. The Universe has a creator with a Will. The Universe began to exist at a point in time. This means the designer willed it to exist. Not an assumption

Do tell, who willed your designer to exist? Very, very stoopid assumption. Your designer just is and willed this universe why? Because you say so. Really? He just popped out all great and all from nowhere yet something as simple as basic energy could not do that. Why oh why? Because you says so... I see

tbaba1234:
vi. This Intelligent creator exists outside the Universe because to create it, He must exist outside it. If i am buiding a house, i must necessarily exist outside the house. Not an assumption

Heh heh, yes an assumption. If I were building a city, would I need to be outside the city to build it. Gaddem mental slavery killing your brain cells..lol...

tbaba1234:
vii. This means He is not bounded by the laws of this Universe and operates outside those laws... Not an assumption

Yes an assumption, see above for black hole example. Or even building a city, I'm sure the laws of physics would still apply to you while building it, yes?

tbaba1234:
Viii. This Intelligent creator/designer with a will not bounded by the laws of the Universe is what We call God.

This when did you prove happened omnipotent designer thingie weeeresdekr = god! Because I say so!!!

tbaba1234:
No assumption was made, It is simple rational deduction from human experience. What we call common sense.

Not sure what to say. Actually I already have maybe; I don't think you're an expert on common sense.

tbaba1234:
No, it is very poosible to get all raw material in one place, like the junkyard

2. The desert (having Oil and trace metals) is actually a very good example because Oil-plastic, Sand -glass/silicon chip, trace metal: circuit board etc..

Okay maybe a phone is too complex for random events, a mirror, glass , plastic... anything??

Before I finished reading that I was going to ask you to prove it or shut up. Glad to see you've owned up some of your folly

tbaba1234:
Chaos brings about just more chaos..

Over enough time, even mathematics demands that patterns will occur. Now, consider this, assuming the absurdity that is infinities actually exist and this universe is genuinely infinite with regards to energy, time, etc, guess what that means? It means if you go far enough you will come across another exact copy of earth, with me schooling you exactly as I'm doing right now. Why? Because there is a limited amount of ways energy can interact and they would at some point have to repeat in the exact same sequence. In fact if infinities exist, there would be an infinite amount of me's typing this exact same post at any time.

I'll give you a simpler example. Observe pidgeon holes, hair and probabilities

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigeonhole_principle#Hair-counting

wiki:
We can demonstrate there must be at least two people in London with the same number of hairs on their heads as follows. A typical human head has around 150,000 hairs; it is reasonable to assume that no one has more than 1,000,000 hairs on their head (m = 1 million holes). Since there are more than 1,000,000 people in London (n is bigger than 1 million items), if we assign a pigeonhole to each number of hairs on a person's head, and assign people to pigeonholes according to the number of hairs on each person's head, there must be at least two people with the same number of hair on their heads (or, n > m). In the case with the fewest overlaps, there will be at least one person assigned to every pigeonhole, at which point the 1,000,001st person is assigned to the same pigeonhole as someone else. Of course, there may be empty pigeonholes in which case this "collision" happens before we get to the 1,000,000th person. The principle just proves the existence of an overlap; it says nothing of the number of overlaps.

Patterns MUST evolve over time. Also, fractals are always nice, though not directly related to this in all cases.

tbaba:
Having a controlled environment is the only way to observe them... We simply manipulate other things that exist in the universe to 'create them". That is not creation.... A mobile phone does not exist in nature so i manipulate other materials to make it.

Making these elements involve manipulating elements and compounds that already exist in Nature in a controlled environment.

That is not creation, dude... I think i might be lowering my IQ at this rate discussing with you.

Like i said, Humans do not create, we simply manipulate what exists in nature.

Yes, my good intelligent overlord, observe the rest of that section, immediately after what you quote

me, from the very same post:

You could get away with indicating humans cannot add to the total amount of energy in the universe, and that could perhaps be true, but that's not what I meant. And again, read up, something comes from nothing all the time in this universe, but the picture may not be complete so we can ignore that for now.

I hope you didn't miss that on purpose, else your accusations below would just compound on the hypocrisy my enjoying the west brother. Then again, if you don't understand what the above means my high IQ friend... (Emphasis on the high iq part of the preceding statement btw)

And trust me, I should be more cautious than you are. I could possibly acquire brain cancer, the sort that turns one into mindless zombie or a happy slave, aka a muslim, but I'm not worried.

wiki:
Keep waiting! when we get there.

OK!!!

wiki:
You have

i. Presented a time argument which is silly considering who we are talking about.

ii. Shown intellectual dishonesty and laziness by misquoting ayat of the Quran... No understanding of historical context or proper study, Quoting sites named :answeringIslam

iii. Claimed 'creation' out of something made in the lab.

The more i look at your claims, i understand why you would choose something as irrational as atheism. Maybe you did fall out of the sky.... Maybe i could figure out the mathematical probability of that. At least there is a chance.

The chance hypothesis is quite hilarious, fairy tale stuff...

All these have been addressed above, and other than your backtracking on your wonderful mobile phone in the desert statement I notice the distinct lack of claiming your islamic theocracy is superior to the west. I thought that was where you were headed? I'm sure I'll find other jewels if I choose to look.

And believe it or not, there actually is a chance of my popping out of the sky, heh. But that's another issue

tbaba:
Keep trying.. Maybe you will come up with something half-decent in your next post. And keep your resentment towards God on the low, we are trying to have a discussion as two humans. This kind of rebellion only makes you come across as having nothing good to say.

Note: I would not respond to your next post, if it contains any insult to God.

I'm not having a civil discussion with you dim-wit, you may not have noticed. And I've procrastinated far too much as is, if I were my boss I'd fire me. I stand to gain absolutely nothing from you, I'm simply pointing your folly for others to see. Hopefully they think twice before espousing sharia (fat chance). At least, maybe non muslims can pick up something from this. And you best not be bringing that sharia nonsense near me.

Also why should I have respect for your goat loving dog god, hmm? He doesn't seem to care for kaffirs from the looks of it.

But ok, I apologize, blaspheme. Accept my apologies with this pretty link pls

https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Offended


Edits

Logicboy03:



Atheism is not a belief.


Furthermore, nice try to take the most ambiguous definition of faith to try and include atheism. Dubious fool.

with all your claims of being knowledgeable,you don't even know the meaning of faith. Anti-fairist and its opposite are both beliefs both require faith but are only in opposing directions. Change that name please,you know no logic.