In sequel to the below,and tbaba's decision to run again,this thread has been created.we know running away is a "sunnah" of one of tbaba's masters (namely Umar Ibn al-Khattab) as per tafsir of verse 3:144 and the Battle of Uhud,but that doesn't mean at all tbaba should keep running away (from the truth of Imamate of Imam Ali and the pure members of the Ahlul-Bayt) throughout his life because his desires don't make him feel like calling himself a Shia Muslim!

Zhul-fiqar:
@tbaba

What does the below verse means to you,and what does the highlighted part means?

Quran 5:55-the Verse of Wilayah

"Only Allah is your Wali and His Messenger and those who believe and keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow".

Note: "Wali" is the singular of "awliyaa".it can mean friend,protector,guardian and MASTER.

https://www.nairaland.com/1207146/please-let-good-muslim-explain#14504668

Certainly your Master is ...

"Certainly your Master is Allah and His Messenger and those who believe who eshtablish prayer and give charity while they bow.And who ever takes Allah and His Messenger and those who believe as a guardian, so surely the party of Allah will be victorious".(Quran 5:55-56)

It is unanimous that the verse descended about Imam Ali (AS) when he gave
away in charity his ring while he was in a state of kneeling in his prayer.

This is also authenticated successively according to the 12 Imams. Here are
some of the Shi'ite references

- Bihar al-Anwar, by Allama Majlisi
- Tafseer al-Mizan, by Allama Tabatabai
- Tafseer al-Kashaf, by Allama Muhammad Jawad Mughniyah
- al-Ghadir, by Allama Abdul Husain Ahmad al-Amini
- Asbat al-Hudate, by Allama Muhammad Ibn Hasan Amuli

But for the sake of the readers I shall produce some Sunni references, and
traditions in this respect through other sources. Many Sunni commentators of the Quran confirm the fact that the above verse descended on the honor of Imam Ali (AS) and many Sunni scholars have also mentioned the unanimity
or consensus of opinion in their books. Here are some references in this
regard:

(1) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Ahmad Ibn Muhammad al-Tha'labi, under Verse 5:55
(2) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Ibn Jarir al-Tabari, v6, pp 186,288-289
(3) Tafsir Jamiul Hukam al-Quran, by Muhammad Ibn Ahmad Qurtubi, v6, p219
(4) Tafsir al-Khazin, v2, p68
(5) Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Suyuti, v2, pp 293-294
(6) Tafsir al-Kashshaf, by al-Zamakhshari, Egypt 1373, v1, pp 505,649
(7) Asbab al-Nuzool, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, Egypt 1382, v1, p73 on the authority of Ibn Abbas
( 8 ) Asbab al-Nuzool, by al-Wahidi, on the authority of Ibn Abbas
(9) Sharh al-Tjrid, by Allama Qushji
(10) Ahkam al-Quran, al-Jassas, v2, pp 542-543
(11) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v5, p38
(12) Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, p391, Tradition #5991
(13) al-Awsat, by Tabarani, narrated from Ammar Yasir
(14) Ibn Mardawayh, on the authority of Ibn Abbas
... and more.

There is also a tradition related by Ibn Salam whose chain of sources rises
up to the Prophet (PBUH&HF) himself. Please refer to the Sahih of Nisa'i or
the commentary of Sura Ma'idah in Jam'a Bayn al-Sihah al-Sittah.

In Ghayah al-Maram, p18, Sayyid al-Bahrayni forwards twenty four (24)
traditions from sources other than the Ahlul-Bayt, all supporting the above
fact.

For the sake of brevity, I am going to confine my self to a tradition
occuring in the commentary of the Quran by Abi Is'haq Ahmad Ibn Muhammad
ibn Ibrahim Nisaboori al-Tha'labi. A few comments on the respected
personality: He died in 337 AH and Ibn Khallikan gives an account of his
death saying: "He was unique as a commentator of the Quran and his Tafsir
al-Kabir is superior to all other interpretations."

When he reached this verse he recorded this in his Tafsir al-Kabir on the
authority of Abu Dhar al-Ghifari, who said:

"Both of my ears may turn deaf and both of my eyes may become blind if I speak a lie. I heard the Messenger of Allah, Allah's blessings and peace be upon him and his posterity, saying, "Ali is the guide of the righteous and the slayer of the infidels. he who has helped him is victorious and he who has abandoned him is forsaken." One day I said my prayers in the company of the Prophet. A beggar came to the mosque and begged for alms, but nobody gave him anything. Ali was in a state of kneeling in the prayer. He pointed out his ring to the beggar, who appraoched him and removed the ring from his finger.

Thereupon the Prophet, Allah's blessings and peace be upon him and his posterity,
implored Allah the Mighty and Glorious, saying: "O Allah! My brother. Moses begged you saying, 'My Lord, delight my heart and make my task easy and undo the knot in my tongue so that they may understand me,and appoint from my kinsmen, Haroon, my brother, as my vizier, and strenghthen my back with him and make him participate in my mission so that we may glorify You and remember You more frequently. Certainly You see us.' And You inspired him: 'O Musa! All your requests have been granted.' O Allah! I am your slave and your prophet. Delight my heart and make my task easy and appoint from among my kinsmen Ali as my vizier and strengthen my back with him."

Abu Dhar, then, proceeded

By Allah, the Messenger of Allah, Allah's blessings and peace be upon him and his posterity had not yet finished his supplication when the trustworthy Gabriel descended to him with this Verse

"Certainly Allah is Your Master, and His Prophet and those who believe who establish prayer and give charity while they bow. And whoever takes Allah and His Messenger and those who believe as a guardian, so surely the party of Allah will be victorious."

Sunni reference: Tafsir al-Kabir, by al-Tha'labi under the commentary of verses 5:55-56 of Quran.


========================================
A few comments by the other Commentators
========================================
Allama al-Tabarsi, while commenting on this verse in Majma' al-Bayan
states: "The plural form has been used for Ali, Commander of the faithful,
in order to express his honor and eminence." And masters of the Arabic
language use the plural form for an individual to show respect.

Allama al-Zamakshari in his Tafsir al-Kashshaf, has mentioned another nice
point which is as follows:

"If you inquire how this plural word is applicable to Ali, may Allah be gracious to him, who is an individual, I shall say that though this verse is about Ali, an individual, the plural form is used in order to presuade others to act similarly and to give alms as readily as Ali did. There is also an implied instruction that the faithful should keep themselves always on the look out for occasions of acts of sympathy, benevolence and charity to the poor and the needy, and readily do the needful without waiting till the completion of even so important a duty as saying a prayer".

Sunni reference: Tafsir al-Kashshaf, by al-Zamakhshari, v1, p649

Please refer to the Part II of the article of Ghadir Khum for further
argument in this regard.

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter3/5.html

As for the concept of Wali, we do not need any new chapter to prove it. The concept of Wali has been mentioned in Quran with its general as well as its special meaning. Here is just one of the verses with its special meaning:

* Only * Allah is your WALI, and His Messenger and those among believers who keep alive prayer AND pay Zakat while they are in the state of bowing. (Quran 5:55)

The above verse clearly suggests that * not * all believers are your WALI with the special meaning of WALI in this verse which is "master" and "leader". Here again, WALI does not mean just friend, because all the believers are friends of each other. The above verse mentions that only three items are your special WALI: Allah, Prophet Muhammad, and Imam Ali for he was the only one at the time of Prophet who paid Zakat while he was
in the state bowing (ruku'). Muslim scholars are unanimous in reporting
this event. Here are just some of the Sunni references which mentioned the revelation of the above verse of Quran in the honor of Imam Ali:

(1) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v5, p38
(2) Tafsir al-Kashshaf, by al-Zamakhshari, Egypt 1373, v1, pp 505,649
(3) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Ahmad Ibn Muhammad al-Tha'labi
(4) Tafsir al-Bayan, by Ibn Jarir al-Tabari, v6, pp 186,288-289
(5) Tafsir Jamiul Hukam al-Quran, by Muhammad Ibn Ahmad Qurtubi, v6, p219
(6) Tafsir al-Khazin, v2, p68
(7) Durr al-Manthur, by al-Suyuti, v2, pp 293-294
( 8 ) Asbab al-Nuzool, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, Egypt 1382, v1, p73 on the
authority of Ibn Abbas
(9) Asbab al-Nuzool, by al-Wahidi
(10) Sharh al-Tjrid, by Allama Qushji
(11) Ahkam al-Quran, al-Jassas, v2, pp 542-543
(12) Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, p391
(13) al-Awsat, by Tabarani, narrated from Ammar Yasir
(14) Ibn Mardawayh, on the authority of Ibn Abbas
... and more ...

Please see the article of Ghadir Khum, Part II, for more information and
clarification about the above verse.

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter8/5.html

In the above two articles I presented from al-islam.org on verse 5:55,reference is twice made to the part 2 of the article on the event of Ghadir Khumm,where also Prophet Muhammad (s) used the word "mawla" and said: "of whosoever I am his "mawla" (master),Ali is his mawla".in another tradition in Sahih Tirmidhi the Prophet (s) said: "Ali is the "mawla" of every believer after me".it is either Allah (swt) and the Prophet (s) deliberately wanted to mislead muslims-if the Sunni claim,that anywhere the word "mawla" in reference to Imam Ali (as) is made means a simple "friend" like any other believer is "friend" of another,is true-or indeed the word "mawla" means "master" and someone holding authority and leadership (as the Shia believe), as in every context the word "mawla" is made in reference to Imam Ali (as),it is tied to the "mawla-ship" of Allah (swt) and the Prophet (s) upon all the believers.

Below is the link of the part 2 of the article on Ghadir Khum explaining "the Meaning of Wali, Mawla, and Wilayah":

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter3/3.html

what a joke!! I shouldn't even dignify this with a response

Prophet: said to zaid, “You are our brother and our Mawla.” [sahi bukhari, 3:863]

I guess Zaid is supposed to be Khaliph/imam as well

Sahi muslim Bk 31, Number 6121: Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Quraish, Ansar, Muzaina, Juhaina and Ghifar, they are my friends[mawalli] and there is no friend of theirs besides Allah and His Messenger.

The whole tribe is supposed to be khilafah ... And wait, they must be the masters of the prophet as well.

Mawla like many arabic words have different meanings depending on the context... Mawla doesn’t mean that a person was declared as Khaliph. The hypocrisy of the shia is ridiculous.

I am not one to bash sects otherwise so Continue in your delusion instead on wasting my time..

Please do not call me again I don't have time for this.

Thank you.

Omo see sucker punch . . .

tbaba1234:

what a joke!! I shouldn't even dignify this with a response

Prophet: said to zaid, “You are our brother and our Mawla.” [sahi bukhari, 3:863]

I guess Zaid is supposed to be Khaliph/imam as well

No,because in this context the word "mawla" expresses a relationship between the Prophet (s) and Zaid (ra).therefore,it cannot be that Zaid (ra) is the "master" of the Prophet (s).the Prophet's (s) mawlaship embraces mastership/leadership and friendship.therefore,in this context Zaid (ra) can be said to be the "friend" or "helper" of the Prophet (s) and not "master".

Zaid's mawlaship is a lesser one than that of the Prophet (s).so in respect to the Prophet (s),Zaid (ra) cannot be the Prophet's (s) master;only Allah (swt) is.

But when Allah (swt) is putting in the same sentence/verse His mawlaship,then that of the Prophet (s),and declares to the believers that Himself,the Prophet (s) and Imam Ali (as) are the "mawlas" of the believers,then Imam Ali's (as) mawlaship is elevated to that of Allah and the Prophet,both of whom embrace mastership and friendship.Allah and Prophet's mawlaship are not demoted to the significance of mawlaship of ordinary believers among themselves.you cannot restrict Allah's or the Prophet's mawlaship only to "friendship".its a superior mawlaship.

But had Allah included the generality of believers after mentioning Imam Ali (as),and say "the believers are mawla of one another",then we can understand mawlaship is only "friendship" because the generality of believers are not masters to themselves in a revealed way,but friends or helpers.in verse 5:55,a superior power is dictating to the believers who they should look up to.a mawla can be a friend but not every friend is a mawla in the sense of mastership.

In a similar way,God cannot beget a son because he is the Creator,and cannot be limited/demoted to be a father literally,as christians have done.

Sahih muslim Bk 31, Number 6121: Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Quraish, Ansar, Muzaina, Juhaina and Ghifar, they are my friends[mawalli] and there is no friend of theirs besides Allah and His Messenger.

The whole tribe is supposed to be khilafah ... And wait, they must be the masters of the prophet as well.

You're being outrightly silly.its not sarcasm because you're fighting with yourself to miss the point here.

Obviously,those tribes are "helpers" of themselves.but when the same word is used for Allah and the Messenger,their relationship based on the word "mawla" takes a higher significance in respective to the tribes.Allah and the Prophet's mawlaship over the tribes is superior to the mawlaship of one tribe to another. in the Quran,we are told "the Prophet is awla (has more authority) on the believers than themselves".

Mawla like many arabic words have different meanings depending on the context... Mawla doesn’t mean that a person was declared as Khaliph. The hypocrisy of the shia is ridiculous.

You've just contradicted yourself.it has many meanings,so why are you accusing the Shia of hypocrisy for choosing the right meaning for the context of mawla in verse 5:55? How are you sure your own choice of meaning is right? Therefore how are you sure you're not the one being an hypocrite? You have given no reason why we should believe the context in verse 5:55 is "friendship" only,when Allah's mawlaship is not restricted to friendship and have a higher significance.you gave us examples of instances the word is used as "friendship" or "helper".you also have only repeated by stating what we already know and stated that the word "mawla" have many meanings.

In the event of Ghadir Khumm too,Sunni go hypocritical when again they define the word "mawla" as "friend" in spite of the fact that the context based on the other statements of the Prophet (s) for Imam Ali (as) doesn't at all mean "friendship",but a higher significance of mawlaship which encompasses mastership.that can be seen in the reaction of abu bakr and umar who congratulated Imam Ali (as) for becoming the mawla of every believer after the Prophet's (s) declaration in Ghadir Khumm.if the word in that context doesn't mean "master",then Imam Ali (as) cannot be said to have "become",because believers are already "friends" of one another.anything by sunnis to deny Imam Ali's (as) mastership and protect the image (?) Of abu bakr and umar.

I am not one to bash sects otherwise so Continue in your delusion instead on wasting my time..

I'm happy you did because its obvious,this verse brought you out of your comfort zone and gave you a spark.you need more of this,to think.you can't apply your "all knowing" attitude when it comes to issues of contention between Shia and Sunnis.expect more shocks!

Please do not call me again I don't have time for this.

Thank you.

Please your attention is greatly appreciated.no need to cry and vent frustration and anger.its for your own good,even though I can sense you were shaking and your faith trembled pele!

@tbaba

You explained in the below post quoted (from the other thread mentioned in the OP),how a muslim being a "mawla" or "wali" (plural "awliya" ) of another muslim (which is superior to relationship/wilayah between a muslim and a non-muslim),is different from a muslim being a "wali" of a non-muslim (in a restricted sense).

Now if the context of "mawla" in verse 5:55 is to mean just "friendship" as between believers or ordinary "friendship" even with non-believers, knowing well that when Allah (swt) is described as the "mawla" of the believers,He is the Ultimate mawla (a position that the Prophet can also exercise upon the believers by Allah's permission),how do you know which context of "friendship" verse 5:55 is refering to? Is it the one between a muslim and another muslim,or a "friendship" between a muslim and anyone,including non-muslims? Please explain your reason and logic.How do you know that we should not see Imam Ali's (as) position of "mawla" as that one of Allah (swt) and the Prophet's (sa),which carries "friendship" coupled with "authority"/leadership? Please explain because other than an hysteric outburst in your reply to the OP,I don't know how you concluded verse 5:55 expresses "friendship" only,which could be muslim-muslim friendship or muslim to non-muslim friendship,instead of friendship coupled with unconditional authority/leadership that the word "mawla" carries for Allah (swt) and His Prophet (sa) upon the believers.you can't compare apples to oranges.you cannot bring down the position of Allah and the Prophet (sa) because Imam Ali (as) is referred along in verse 5:55.and this higher position is a declaration to all believers including abu bakr and umar to/must accept! The believers generally are friends/helpers/guardians of one another.its a general rule.I don't see why an exception for one believer (Imam Ali) must be made to declare/emphasize his "friendship" in the Quran and also in the Event of Ghadir Khumm (as Sunnis claim) towards fellow/ordinary muslim believers,and how it is logical that for a general and lesser meaning of "mawla" (lesser in respect to that of Allah and the Prophet) which is a general rule for believers to be understood for Imam Ali (as),Allah and the Prophet's significance/meaning in the word "mawla" must be brought down to a lesser meaning;and not opposite where Imam Ali's (as) position is promoted.

tbaba1234: The Quran says muslims should not take jews,and christians as 'auliya' .

What does auliya mean? In what context was the revelation given? How come the companions of the prophet had jewish and christian friends??

There are many words for friends in Arabic language, depending on the kind of friendship, the people enjoy...

i. Auliya relates to a 'protecting friend'.... Like a father is an auliya to his son. Allah is the Auliya to the believers....

So what does this mean?

i.) The muslims were in a state of war but they had friends who remained jews or christians. Some of these friends did not like the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)and supported for the other size: The mushrik of mecca.

If the relationship between the two friends was one whereby the Non-muslim was an auliya or a wali to the muslim... It means the muslim depends on him for protection and tells him everything, this could include military strategies.. etc.. A Non-muslim friend with loyalties elsewhere can divulge this kind of information to the other side

So even though the muslims maintained cordial relationships with their Jewish and christian friends, It was not the kind of relationship, where the non muslim was an wali or auliya to the muslim.

"Certainly your Master is Allah and His Messenger and those who believe who eshtablish prayer and give charity while they bow..."

there is an order here if we care to notice
"Certainly your Master is Allah
and His Messenger
and those who believe
who eshtablish prayer
and give charity while they bow..."


... could the phrase "while they bow" not also mean "with humility"? .....they give charit with humility (not proud nor feel pumpous about it)

my thoughts.... honest thought

OP, you should really be ashamed of yourself and the way you set up this thread. What will this ipso facto argument achieve? Nothing positive. So, why bother?

ghazzal: "Certainly your Master is Allah and His Messenger and those who believe who eshtablish prayer and give charity while they bow..."

there is an order here if we care to notice

That is a very good point and observation raised.

The verse starts with "innama",which carries an order,authority or an enforcement/restriction.

"Certainly your Master is Allah
and His Messenger
and those who believe
who eshtablish prayer
and give charity while they bow..."


... could the phrase "while they bow" not also mean "with humility"? .....they give charit with humility (not proud nor feel pumpous about it)

my thoughts.... honest thought

The phrase "while they bow" refers to a particular event.giving zakat while you bow in salat is not a rule in Islam nor a recommended act in the shariah.it was Imam Ali (as) who was bowing (ruku) in salat when a beggar entered the mosque pleading for sustenance.it was Imam Ali (as) who stretched his hand and offered his ring to the beggar.then this verse was revealed confirming his Wilayah upon the believers in par with the Wilayah of Almighty Allah (swt) and His Prophet (sa).and some people want us to believe that Imam Ali (as) is just another believer friend like any other.ridiculous!

maclatunji: OP, you should really be ashamed of yourself and the way you set up this thread. What will this ipso facto argument achieve? Nothing positive. So, why bother?

What's this all supposed to mean? You now also dictate how someone should format his post? Is that also an offense? Why use personal view to make it seem like the OP violated a rule? We understand tbaba is one of your boys.but please act as a moderator.don't let your personal views or prejudice affect how you comport yourself ( "separation of church and state" ).it will only let others have more bad feelings about you.I could also say your comment is not positive.respect freedom of expression for peace to reign.

There is really no need for argument or confusion regarding verse 5:55.if our Sunni brothers says the word "mawla" means "friend",then fine we can (in order not to argue) accept it means "friend".then let us talk common sense to see the extent of this involuntary and imposed "friendship" by an holder of absolute authority.Allah has made all believers "friends" and even "brothers",as per the verse "believers are brothers".does that mean that believers must obey themselves,not disagree and accept everything from one another? Certainly not,because believers can err.it is our sense of belong to islam that unite us and make us "mawla"/friends to one another.nothing of authority,but affinity.

But in verse 5:55,Allah singled out one man (Imam Amirul-mu'mineen Ali) and said: Certainly Allah,the Prophet and Imam Amirul-Mu'mineen Ali (as) are the mawla of all believers.if a believer decides to anger Allah,can he still claim to be a "friend" of Allah"? Certainly not! In fact that person must seek repentance.if you anger,go against the wishes and disobey someone who Allah has specifically made a "friend" (as per Sunni interpretation) of all believers from the time that verse 5:55 was revealed till the day of resurrection,are you disobeying Allah's word in the Quran or not? A very important point is the Quran is an everlasting book for believers at all times,till resurrection.therefore the so called "friendship" of Imam Ali (as) is also eternal for all believers to observe till qiyama.we can understand that people living at the time of Imam Ali (as) can be "friends" with him.but how can a believer living at this age and time apply verse 5:55 if "mawla" means simple "friendship" that can only be observed with the person if the person is alive? Therefore,this is an "enforced" and "authoritative friendship" as per the speaker who is Almighty Allah;just like in every age and time a believer must observe the prophethood of Muhammed (s),so also must the wilayah/imamate of Ali (as) and his successors (i.e. believing in the imamate/wilayah of the 12 Imams of Prophet Muhammed's Ahlul-Bayt be observed).! So no one can displease the wishes of Imam Ali (as),anger him or disobey him because that will contradict the holy Quran,in verse 5:55.we saw when people complained about Imam Ali (as) after an expedition to Yemen;the Prophet (s) rejected their complains and told them:"don't you know he is the mawla of every believer"? therefore we can only say this "friendship" goes along with "authority" and "obdience/leadership" just as we understand the word "mawla" for Allah (swt).

Let me give an example.if President Jonathan is the absolute ruler of a place (as Allah (swt) is far more absolute and the most absolute ruler),and said Mr. X is the "friend" of you all.is that a command that carried authority or not? Yes it does.so if anyone goes against Mr. X and Mr. X takes malice or anger,can President Jonathan punish the violator of his command or not? So therefore when people (Sunnis) want to define and limit/restrict the word "mawla" to ordinary padi padi (friendship),let them be.then ask them if this friendship carries the weight of command and demands obedience or not? Can you limit Allah being your "mawla" to ordinary "friend"? so this "mawla" position is the same as that of Allah and the Prophet (saw) upon every believer,till resurrection,and for as long as we read verse 5:55 in the holy Quran.the speaker here is Allah and the Prophet (s).

Another example was when the Prophet (s) declared in the Event of Ghadir Khumm: "of whom I am his mawla Ali is his mawla".another statement that carries force,authority and command upon every believer till thy kingdom come! It shows a believer who knows what it means by referring to the Prophet (s) as his "mawla" must apply the same measure of "mawla" to Imam Ali (as).you can't choose to or stop being the "friend" of the Prophet (saw).you have no choice because this mawla carries authority and superiority,as the Quran says: "the Prophet is superior to the believers than themselves".you cannot also restrict the mawla position of the Prophet (s) to just being a simple friend.when a high mawla says another person is equally a mawla to you as himself,then you give that other person the same position and respect as to the former.when someone of that position (the Prophet) uses the word "mawla",to say if he is your "mawla" another person (Imam Ali),is your mawla,then you're commanded,placed under the authority of another person and you must be obedient to that person as you're to the main holder of authority,which the Prophet (saw).this applies to everyone who claims to be a follower of the holy Prophet Muhammed (saw).if you cannot render the Prophet (s) just an ordinary friend/mawla like the position of believers to one another,then you cannot render the one individual singled out by both Allah in the Quran,and the Prophet (s) at Ghadir Khumm,to be a mawla any less than the position of mawla, Allah and His Prophet (s) are.in Ghadir Khumm,it is like a president telling his people that of whom I am president Mr. X is also his president.mawla position of the Prophet (s) carries both friendship and "presidential authority" at the same time.and then someone people (Sunnis) say its only and strictly "ordinary friendship".what logic is that? Who told you? How did you know? "Mawla" have many meanings? Yes we know,and that's why we are explaining which meaning to choose.but you Sunni can't explain under any logic your choice,other than "the word have many meanings". I refuse to believe that the mawla position of Allah and the Prophet can be restricted upon the believers to just mean simple "friendship".and I am a Shia of Ali (as) and Muslim insha'Allah!!!

LagosShia:

What's this all supposed to mean? You now also dictate how someone should format his post? Is that also an offense? Why use personal view to make it seem like the OP violated a rule? We understand tbaba is one of your boys.but please act as a moderator.don't let your personal views or prejudice affect how you comport yourself ( "separation of church and state" ).it will only let others have more bad feelings about you.I could also say your comment is not positive.respect freedom of expression for peace to reign.

When did my being a moderator nullify my right to post as a user? What declaration did I make as a moderator in that post?

maclatunji:

When did my being a moderator nullify my right to post as a user? What declaration did I make as a moderator in that post?

Sorry,my bad.I couldn't figure out if it was a threat by the "mod" or a view by Maclatunji "the user".apologies.

the Complaints After the Expedition of Yemen,the Prophet's (s) Immediate Response,His Later Action (Ghadir Khum) ,And the Meaning of "Mawla" (please pay attention to highlighted below).

The last argument in the strategy of the Sunni polemicists in their response to an event or a hadíth presented by the Shí'as is to give it an interpretation that would safeguard their beliefs. They exploit the fact that the word "mawla" has various meanings: master, lord, slave, benefactor, beneficiery, protector, patron, client, friend, charge, neighbour, guest, partner, son, uncle, cousin, nephew, son-in-law, leader, follower. The Sunnis say that the word "mawla" uttered by the Prophet in Ghadir does not mean "master or lord", it means "friend".

On the issue of the hadíth of Ghadír, this is the stage where the Western scholarship of Islam has arrived. While explaining the context of the statement uttered by the Prophet in Ghadir Khumm, L. Veccia Vaglieri follows the Sunni interpretation. She writes:

On this point, Ibn Kathír shows himself yet again to be percipient historian: he connects the affair of Ghadir Khumm with episodes which took place during the expedition to the Yemen, which was led by 'Ali in 10/631-2, and which had returned to Mecca just in time to meet the Prophet there during his Farewell Pilgrimage. 'Ali had been very strict in the sharing out of the booty and his behaviour had aroused protests; doubt was cast on his rectitude, he was reproached with avarice and accused of misuse of authority. Thus it is quite possible that, in order to put an end to all these accusations, Muhammad wished to demonstrate publicly his esteem and love for 'Ali. Ibn Kathir must have arrived at the same conclusion, for he does not forget to add that the Prophet's words put an end to the murmuring against Ali.[54]

Whenever a word has more than one meaning, it is indeed a common practice to look at the context of the statement and the event to understand the intent of the speaker. Ibn Kathir and other Sunni writers have connected the event of Ghadir Khumm to the incident of the expedition to Yemen. But why go so far back to understand the meaning of "mawla", why not look at the whole sermon that the Prophet gave at Ghadir Khumm itself? Isn't it a common practice to look at the immediate context of the statement, rather than look at remote events, in time and space?

When we look at the immediate context of the statement uttered by the Holy Prophet in Ghadir Khumm, we find the following:

1. The question that the Prophet asked just before the declaration. He asked, "Do I not have more authority upon you (awla bi kum) than you have yourselves?" When the people replied, "Yes, surely," then the Prophet declared: "Whosoever's mawla am I, this 'Ali is his mawla." Surely the word "mawla", in this context, has the same meaning as the word "awla: have more authority".[55]

2. After the declaration, the Prophet uttered the following prayer: "O Allãh! Love him who loves 'Ali, and be enemy of the enemy of 'Ali; help him who helps 'Ali, and forsake him who forsakes 'Ali." This prayer itself shows that 'Ali, on that day, was being entrusted with a position that would make some people his enemies and that he would need supporters in carrying out his responsibilities. This could not be anything but the position of the mawla in the sense of ruler, master and lord. Are helpers ever needed to carry on a 'friendship'?

3. The statement of the Prophet in Ghadir that: "It seems imminent that I will be called away (by Allãh) and I will answer the call." It was clear that the Prophet was making arrangements for the leadership of the Muslims after his death.

4. The companions of the Prophet congratulated 'Ali by addressing him as "Amirul Mumineen - Leader of the Believers". This leaves no room for doubt concerning the meaning of mawla.

5.The occasion, place and time. Imagine the Prophet breaking his journey in mid-day and detaining nearly one hundred thousand travellers under the burning sun of the Arabian desert, making them sit in a thorny place on the burning sand, and making a pulpit of camel saddles, and then imagine him delivering a long sermon and at the end of all those preparations, he comes out with an announcement that "Whosoever considers me a friend, 'Ali is also his friend!" Why? Because some (not all the hundred thousand people who had gathered there) were upset with 'Ali in the way he handled the distribution of the booty among his companions on the expedition to Yemen! Isn't that a ridiculous thought?

Another way of finding the meaning in which the Prophet used the word "mawla" for 'Ali is to see how the people in Ghadir Khumm understood it. Did they take the word "mawla" in the sense of "friend" or in the meaning of "master, leader"?

Hassãn ibn Thãbit, the famous poet of the Prophet, composed a poem on the event of Ghadir Khumm on the same day. He says:



He then said to him: "Stand up, O 'Ali, for
I am pleased to make you Imam & Guide after me.

In this line, Hassãn ibn Thãbit has understood the term "mawla" in the meaning of "Imam and Guide" which clearly proves that the Prophet was talking about his successor, and that he was not introducing 'Ali as a "friend" but as a "leader".

Even the words of 'Umar ibn al-Khattãb are interesting. He congratulated Imam 'Ali in these words: "Congratulations, O son of Abu Tãlib, this morning you became mawla of every believing man and woman."[56] If "mawla" meant "friend" then why the congratulations? Was 'Ali an 'enemy' of all believing men and women before the day of Ghadir?

These immediate contexts make it very clear that the Prophet was talking about a comprehensive authority that 'Ali has over the Muslims comparable to his own authority over them. They prove that the meaning of the term "mawla" in hadíth of Ghadír is not "friend" but "master, patron, lord, or leader".[57]

Finally, even if we accept that the Prophet uttered the words "Whomsoever's mawla I am, this 'Ali is his mawla" in relation to the incident of the expedition to Yemen, even then "mawla" would not mean "friend". The reports of the expedition, in Sunni sources, say that 'Ali had reserved for himself the best part of the booty that had come under the Muslims' control. This caused some resentment among those who were under his command. On meeting the Prophet, one of them complained that since the booty was the property of the Muslims, 'Ali had no right to keep that item for himself. The Prophet was silent; then the second person came with the same complaint. The Prophet did not respond again. Then the third person came with the same complaint. That is when the Prophet became angry and said, "What do you want with 'Ali? He indeed is the waliy after me."[58]

What does this statement prove? It says that just as the Prophet, according to verse 33:6, had more right (awla) over the lives and properties of the believers, similarly, 'Ali as the waliy, had more right over the lives and properties of the believers. The Prophet clearly puts 'Ali on the highest levels of authority (wilãyat) after the Prophet himself. That is why the author of al-Jãmi'u 's-Saghír comments, "This is indeed the highest praise for 'Ali."

http://www.al-islam.org/wilayat/4.htm

Reading this verse and the subsequent 2 to 3 verses, without the need to consult any tafasirs, quite explains it.

i don't know how you guys comeup with Ali r.a being a successor to the prophet SAW from this verse. Do you guys mean to say "those" "aladhyna" as used in this verse refers to only Ali r.a?

Talking of "wa hum raki'un", even though i am not a mufasir, the same word was used for Mariam A.S to join congregational prayers, when Allah SWT commanded her. hence, we can translate "wa hum raki'un" to mean and those who pray in congregation. This translation given is what can be found in tafsir ibn Katheer.
Allahu 'Allam.

sino: Reading this verse and the subsequent 2 to 3 verses, without the need to consult any tafasirs, quite explains it.

i don't know how you guys comeup with Ali r.a being a successor to the prophet SAW from this verse. Do you guys mean to say "those" "aladhyna" as used in this verse refers to only Ali r.a?

Talking of "wa hum raki'un", even though i am not a mufasir, the same word was used for Mariam A.S to join congregational prayers, when Allah SWT commanded her. hence, we can translate "wa hum raki'un" to mean and those who pray in congregation. This translation given is what can be found in tafsir ibn Katheer.
Allahu 'Allam.

Do you give zakat while you do ruku? Who are "those" that give zakat "while they" bow? Can you identify "them" by reading the verse? The plural is used to refer to the action of one man, and the reasons are explained in one of the links already given,why in many places of either praise,or condemnation in the Quran,Allah prefers not to use the names of people.a number of english translations uses the word "and" instead of "while".it is unanimously agreed by Sunnis and Shia,past and present,that this verse was revealed in honor of Imam Ali (as).and when the Sunni is convinced the verse was revealed in honor of Imam Ali (as),he challenges the meaning of "mawla" or "wali".

Please read the materials already presented and insha'Allah you will get more details and answers to your question,and you will be nothing but convinced.

^I read it quite well, still, i find it difficult to accept.

The act of salah is a direct communication with Allah SWT that we are encouraged to pay full concentration, any other act perfomed during salah which is not part of it nullifies the salah. Do you think Allah SWT would sanction such an act so much to reveal an ayah in its regard? we are always informed about the almost perfect concentration of Ali r.a during salah.

The plural issue still baffles me, in verses in which Allah SWT uses such plural, i have never read where it is in honour of just one person, it is usually referring to groups of Muslims during the time of revelation, as well as the later generations.

what about verse 56, 57 and 58? is it still about Ali r.a or are these verses not connected?

i know your point of view is that of shia, i can't accept it, your evidence is not proof enough for me.

sino: ^I read it quite well, still, i find it difficult to accept.

You know Christian trinitarians point to the fact that Allah (swt) in the Quran uses "We" for Himself.do you find it hard too to believe "We" is used instead of "I"?

The act of salah is a direct communication with Allah SWT that we are encouraged to pay full concentration, any other act perfomed during salah which is not part of it nullifies the salah. Do you think Allah SWT would sanction such an act so much to reveal an ayah in its regard? we are always informed about the almost perfect concentration of Ali r.a during salah.

You're mixing up issues of salat,concentration that have to do with "khushoo" and the importance of zakat or giving charity.

The action of Imam Ali (as) by given alms to the poor after no one did in the mosque,is in line with Surat al-Dhahr,where it is stated that:"and the needy do not turn away".it doesn't mean Imam Ali (as) doesn't concentrate,and it doesn't affect salat at all.one lesson the Muslims can derive from this verse and the action of Imam Ali (as) is his compassion for the needy who had no one to help him.so much so,the holy Prophet (s) had said that if you sleep while your neighbor is with an empty stomach you're not a muslim!

The plural issue still baffles me, in verses in which Allah SWT uses such plural, i have never read where it is in honour of just one person, it is usually referring to groups of Muslims during the time of revelation, as well as the later generations.

"Paying Zakat during bowing (ruku') is not a Sunnah. This is accepted by ALL Muslim scholars. Thus the above verse does not seek to set down the desirability or the necessity of paying Zakat during bowing (ruku'), nor does it want to lay it down as duty or something recommended legally in the Islamic sense as a kind of Divine Law (Shari'ah). Rather it is a reference to an action which took place when someone did something in the external world, and now Quran is pointing that action to indicate thatperson. In an indirect way, the verse wants to say that this WALI is a special WALI whose authority has been put beside the authority of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF) since they are jointly mentioned.

One may object that even though Ali did this action, a plural form has been used in the above verse, thus it might encompass some other people as well.

First, the history tells us that there was no other individual who did this at the time of Prophet.

Second, this way of approach in Quran which uses plural form but actually referring to just one person who did that particular act, is NOT uncommon in Quran. For instance Allah mentioned:

"They say: If we return to Medina the mightier (element) will soon drive out the weaker." (63:8 )

Here also Quran is referring to a story which took place, and uses the phrase "They say" while the speaker of the above sentence was not any more than one person.

According to Shia and Sunni commentators he was Abdullah
Ibn Ubayy Ibn Salul.

Quran tries to avoid using names of people as much as possible. This is
done for many reasons such as generality to make it a universal book, and also to make Quran safer from any possible alteration by those who hate a special individual who has been praised in Quran, or by those who love a person who has been denounced in Quran.

Using plural while referring to single, has another application too.Sometimes the act of a single person is worthier than the deeds of a whole nation. This was the case for Prophet Muhammad, Imam Ali, as well as the case for Prophet Abraham. Quran mentions that Abraham (AS) was a nation
(Ummah), meaning that his deeds was more valuable than all other people.

Allah stated:

"Lo! Abraham was a nation (Ummah) who was obedient to Allah,by nature upright, and he was not of the idolaters" (Quran 16:120)

The famous and respected companion of Prophet, Ibn Abbas (RA) said:

"There is no verse in Quran in which the term `Believers', unless Ali is at the top of them and the chief of them and the more virtuous one mong them. Surely Allah has admonished the companions of Muhammad (PBUH) in Quran, but He did not refer to Ali except with honor."

what about verse 56, 57 and 58? is it still about Ali r.a or are these verses not connected?

Only verse 56 is a continuation of verse 55.

i know your point of view is that of shia, i can't accept it, your evidence is not proof enough for me.

Holy Quran 13:40
"...for only the delivery of the message is (incumbent) on you, while calling (them) to account is Our (business) ".

Holy Quran 42:48
"But if they turn aside, We have not sent you as a watcher over them; on you is only to deliver (the message); and surely when We make man taste mercy from Us, he rejoices thereat; and if an evil afflicts them on account of what their hands have already done, then-surely man is ungrateful".

tbaba come back here!

Omo Shia toh badt!

My point is this, people may have explained this verse, i think (and dont tell me we dont think in religious matter cos islam is about thinking) Ali (ra) will not shift attention in a prayer from Allah (swt) i at least find it hart to believe.

LagosShia:
That is a very good point and observation raised.

The verse starts with "innama",which carries an order,authority or an enforcement/restriction.



The phrase "while they bow" refers to a particular event.giving zakat while you bow in salat is not a rule in Islam nor a recommended act in the shariah.it was Imam Ali (as) who was bowing (ruku) in salat when a beggar entered the mosque pleading for sustenance.it was Imam Ali (as) who stretched his hand and offered his ring to the beggar.then this verse was revealed confirming his Wilayah upon the believers in par with the Wilayah of Almighty Allah (swt) and His Prophet (sa).and some people want us to believe that Imam Ali (as) is just another believer friend like any other.ridiculous!

there is an order here if we care to notice
"Certainly your Wali is
(1.) Allah
(2.) and His Messenger
(3.) and those who believe (in the Prophethood of Muhammed (saw) and his message)
(4.) who eshtablish prayer (to belief obviously is a criteria to observe prayer)
(5.) and give charity while they bow..." (giving charity in humility is explained severally in the Quran and in Hadiths) how do you tell me this is referenced to Ali (ra) besides 2 other group are described first before Ali if you will notice it. Though he may Qualify for the numbers 3 and 4 as well but your claim that he is refered to in number 5 above will have to place some other people in number 3 and 4.

dont mind me. It is just not reasonable that the verse refers to Ali(ra) Hadith may support it but it was on this same forum that i realised hadiths that contradict themselves. It only reminds us to use logic and Quran verse when referencing hadiths.

A question i will want to ask is this, how does being Shia affect the 5 pillars of Islam? I also dont think islamic faith is tied to believe in Imamate but in the shahadah (THERE IS NO GOD BUT MOST HIGH GOD ANAD MUHAMMED IS HIS MESSENGER AND PROPHET). If there are questions about Imamate, how is it relevant to my faith?

ghazzal: My point is this, people may have explained this verse, i think (and dont tell me we dont think in religious matter cos islam is about thinking) Ali (ra) will not shift attention in a prayer from Allah (swt) i at least find it hart to believe.

there is an order here if we care to notice
"Certainly your Wali is
(1.) Allah
(2.) and His Messenger
(3.) and those who believe (in the Prophethood of Muhammed (saw) and his message)
(4.) who eshtablish prayer (to belief obviously is a criteria to observe prayer)
(5.) and give charity while they bow..." (giving charity in humility is explained severally in the Quran and in Hadiths) how do you tell me this is referenced to Ali (ra) besides 2 other group are described first before Ali if you will notice it. Though he may Qualify for the numbers 3 and 4 as well but your claim that he is refered to in number 5 above will have to place some other people in number 3 and 4.

dont mind me. It is just not reasonable that the verse refers to Ali(ra) Hadith may support it but it was on this same forum that i realised hadiths that contradict themselves. It only reminds us to use logic and Quran verse when referencing hadiths.

Tell us who is "those who give charity WHILE they bow".this is no longer about hadith,nor is there an issue about contradictory hadiths.reading from the verse,identify those who give charity "while" they bow.you want to logically read the verse without even the hadiths both Sunnis and Shia agree on about this verse.that's fine.but explain the verse by telling us who are referred to.we have given our factual evidence.

A question i will want to ask is this, how does being Shia affect the 5 pillars of Islam? I also dont think islamic faith is tied to believe in Imamate but in the shahadah (THERE IS NO GOD BUT MOST HIGH GOD ANAD MUHAMMED IS HIS MESSENGER AND PROPHET). If there are questions about Imamate, how is it relevant to my faith?

The shahada is imamate! The principle and essence of imamate is wilayah to Allah and His chosen one,which encompasses caliphate.remember man was created to be a caliph of Allah on earth as per Suratul Baqarah and the narrations on the creation of Adam (as).

Imamate is a belief like resurrection,and any other in Islam.in the shahada we recite,testifying and accepting the Prophet (s) covers the imamate of the 12 Imams (as).the Prophet (s) is the Imam of our ummah even in his death.that is why you see upon his death no imam led the janazah prayer on him.rather everyone offered his own prayer of janazah for the Prophet (s).

The imamate of the Ahlul-Bayt (as) is also tied to the verse of mawaddah in the Quran,which states:

Say O Muhammad:"I ask you of no reward save the affection of my kindred".

Those who deny the right of the Ahlul-Bayt (as) and the position God preferred them with over others,are divorced with this verse.the main reason the right of the Ahlul-Bayt (as) was denied is selfishness and jealousy.so keeping a covenant of Allah and upholding the Quran is just more than words.it runs deep in the heart and in our acts.

Also the same declaration about Imam Ali (as) being the "mawla" of every believer was done by the Prophet (s) too in Ghadir Khumm,aside from the declaration of the verse 5:55 by Allah (swt) Himself.again Sunnis deny that too,and run to playing with the meaning of "mawla",for which explanations have already been given.upon the declaration of Ghadir Khumm,the verse of perfection of religion was revealed.a successor to be appointed to carry on the torch of Islam was what completed Allah's favor upon humanity,when the Prophet (s) made Allah's wish and command known in Ghadir Khumm.

Zhul Fikar, who don't you channel your energy towards actions that will be commendably catabolic ? You radiate so much vigour in diffusing dissent and your actions are at best suboptimal.....Your brother,LagosShia, should advise you as you will only be able to subject Islam to further scorn. Let the pious predecessors rest in piece and points or arguments as you have raised here are purely an exercise in futility. I do not also mince words to say extremism either by Shia or sunni should be shunned.
Tbaba, may Allah reward you copiously for your golden silence and safeguard us all from heresy.

May Allah's peace and blessings be upon our noble prophet and his companions.

Zhul Fikar, May Allah reward your intentions too.

Zhul Fikar, why don't you channel your energy towards actions that will be commendably anabolic? You radiate so much vigour in diffusing dissent and your actions are at best suboptimal.....Your brother,LagosShia, should advise you as you will only be able to subject Islam to further scorn. Let the pious predecessors rest in piece. Points or arguments as you have raised here are purely an exercise in futility. I do not also mince words to say extremism either by Shia or sunni should be shunned.
Tbaba, may Allah reward you copiously for your golden silence and safeguard us all from heresy.

May Allah's peace and blessings be upon our noble prophet and his companions.

Zhul Fikar, May Allah reward your intentions too.

^
Do you believe in prophethood? Yes you do.if you don't believe in the prophethood of Isa (as),a man who lived over 2000 years ago,are you still considered a Muslim? No! Truth have no expiry date,and no matter the years that pass,you can't as a Muslim committed to Allah and Islam bury the truth.

Do you believe in the prophethood and imamate of Ibrahim (as)-both mentioned in the Quran? Yes! Do you believe in the prophethood and imamate of Muhammad (s)? Yes! Do you believe in the imamate of his successor (Imam Ali) appointed by him and with Allah's approval? No,you don't! Why? We should "let the predecessors live in peace"! A big lol!!! Is it concealing,avoiding or ignoring the truth that will let the predecessors live in peace? Imamate,of the Prophet Muhammad's (sa) successors starting with Imam Ali (as) and ending with Imam Mahdi (aj)-the awaited saviour of humanity from tyranny,oppression and injustice-is a fundamental belief in Islam just like fasting,salat and resurrection;which without any one of them all,you're not going to be a complete believer.in fact there are Sunni scholars who believe if you don't believe in the coming of the mahdi,you're not a muslim.to us Shia,we identify the 12th Imam from the Ahlul-Bayt (as) as the mahdi,chosen by Allah.the doctrine of imamate therefore is very important to us presently aside from the fact that the Quran verse of perfection (5:3) of religion over 1400 years ago was revealed by the appointment of the first imam-Imam Ali (as)-at Ghadir Khumm.the question is if you don't know the first imam,how would you know the 12th? And we are not sunnis who believe in a mahdi yet to be born,because obviously they gave up on imamate (spiritual and political leadership) and settled for only caliphate (political leadership only),starting with abu bakr.

These are facts tbaba doesn't want to examine.he is content with himself and that's his choice.good for him.but for me,I'm holding on to every truth Islam have presented and compromising on none.and that's why I'm Shia and he's Sunni.

ossyme: Zhul Fikar, why don't you channel your energy towards actions that will be commendably anabolic? You radiate so much vigour in diffusing dissent and your actions are at best suboptimal.....Your brother,LagosShia, should advise you as you will only be able to subject Islam to further scorn. Let the pious predecessors rest in piece. Points or arguments as you have raised here are purely an exercise in futility. I do not also mince words to say extremism either by Shia or sunni should be shunned.
Tbaba, may Allah reward you copiously for your golden silence and safeguard us all from heresy.

May Allah's peace and blessings be upon our noble prophet and his companions.

Zhul Fikar, May Allah reward your intentions too.

Zhul-fiqar:


Do you give zakat while you do ruku? Who are "those" that give zakat "while they" bow? Can you identify "them" by reading the verse? The plural is used to refer to the action of one man, and the reasons are explained in one of the links already given,why in many places of either praise,or condemnation in the Quran,Allah prefers not to use the names of people.a number of english translations uses the word "and" instead of "while".it is unanimously agreed by Sunnis and Shia,past and present,that this verse was revealed in honor of Imam Ali (as).and when the Sunni is convinced the verse was revealed in honor of Imam Ali (as),he challenges the meaning of "mawla" or "wali".

Please read the materials already presented and insha'Allah you will get more details and answers to your question,and you will be nothing but convinced.

That statement in red colour is ABSOLUTE falsehood
Even Ibn Kathir which is available on the net does not say it refers to Ali. So where is the unanimity?

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=766&Itemid=60
(and they bow down,) some people thought that they give the Zakah while bowing down. If this were the case, then paying the Zakah while bowing would be the best form of giving Zakah. No scholar from whom religious rulings are taken says this, as much as we know.

This issue of Ali (RA) giving sadaqa is refuted elsewhere (Dr Ahmad Salamah) anyway.

There are two versions of this story from Shia books

Usool al Kafi (Kitab al Hujjat p 177)

"One day, Amir ul Momineen (The commander of Belivers, Hazrat Ali, R) was offering his noon prayer and had completed the first two rakats. He was then wearing a costly mantle worth 2,000 dirhams. The Emperor Najashi (of Ethiopia) had earlier sent it to the Holy Prophet (S), but he gave it to Ali (R). At that time a beggar appeared on the spot and cried out, 'O the Trustee of Allah and the Commander of Believers! Give some charity to the beggar'. Ali (R) threw away his mantle and indicated with his finger that the beggar should take it. Allah then revealed this verse (that Ali (R) is the Master of the believers)

In Imamat by S Rizvi p 36

"One day, a beggar came to the mosque, where the Prophet (S) with his companions was offering his prayer. He begged for Alm, but nobody gave him anything. The beggar then raised his finger towards the sky and cried out. 'O Allah! Be witness that I came to the Prophet's mosque and nobody gave me a thing'. Ali (R) at that time was bowing in Ruku. He pointed his little finger, which had a ring, towards the beggar, who then came forward and took it away from Ali's hand. Allah then revealed this verse and declared Ali (R) to be the Master of the believers.

Now what do we say about this verse and the Shia ahadeeth on the matter
(1. Qur'an verse 5:55 has plural pronouns all through. If Allah intended Ali, he would have used singular tenses and pronouns. The argument that Allah uses the royal we for Himself is irrelevant here. We are not talking about Allah
(2. It was generally known that Ali (RA) was a poor man. A poor man giving a mantle of 2,000 dirhams away is strange. Shia sources testify to the financial status of Ali.

"When the Holy Prophet (S) arranged Fatima's marriage to Ali (R), Syeda Fatima said to the Prophet (S), 'The ladies of Quraish taunt me that your father has given you in marriage to a person who is destitute."

Majilisi Jalal Ayun v2 page 65 and 179,

(3. In both ahadeeth, the beggar was apparently a Muslim. But he did not respect the sanctity of Salat. That alm must be given during salat!
(4. Salat is obligatory while sadaqa is voluntary. Would Ali (S) a man who was an astute faqih interrupt an obligatory act to do what is voluntary? There are reports to the testify to how seriously Ali took Salat. Even he was attacked while praying Fajr. Did he void his Khushoo? No. But this stories imply he did for a beggar whose life was NOT in danger
(5. Is it not curious that the Prophet of Allah (SAW) and other companions ignored the beggar while only Ali broke ranks by giving something to the beggar? And Allah condoned the action of Ali and immediately rewarded Ali by revealing the verse. So Ali exceeded the Prophet (SAW) in virtue!

Interesting!

Zhul-fiqar, please tell me, can i give sadaqah while praying.... if Someone did this once and God recognised him well as you claim with this verse (5:55), can i do the same?

also did you ever think of it if Alli (ra) would be concentrating in his prayers to be able to give sadaqah while praying? will this be an example for the ummah to follow? I believe there is a misunderstanding here. Why do you refuse to think of "bow" in that verse as humility or is it not a possible option?

^Nna ehn, these guys are something else. What kind of 'tafsir' are they giving?

BetaThings:

That statement in red colour is ABSOLUTE falsehood

First whenever I reply to you in any thread henceforth (except you apologize),know that it is from the view that you're an unrepentant sectarian liar as the thread below testifies.and if you're out here to derail the thread with off-topics,personal arguments or dribbling the point,then don't be suprised if your post won't be honored with a reply.so behaving courteously is not a choice but an obligation if you're to be taken seriously.most often,I'm sure you don't believe what you type and you don't convince even yourself.

https://www.nairaland.com/1205043/how-western-muslim-left-islam/3#14614790

There is hardly a sunni tafsir of verse 5:55,that does not relate this incident to Imam Ali (as).well over 10 classical sunni Quran tafsir books record this.

Even Ibn Kathir which is available on the net does not say it refers to Ali. So where is the unanimity?

The below references are all classical sunni scholars citing the incidence.if only ibn kathir not citing it would make you doubt its unanimity,then its your choice.what I can say?

(1) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v5, p38
(2) Tafsir al-Kashshaf, by al-Zamakhshari, Egypt 1373, v1, pp 505,649
(3) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Ahmad Ibn Muhammad al-Tha'labi
(4) Tafsir al-Bayan, by Ibn Jarir al-Tabari, v6, pp 186,288-289
(5) Tafsir Jamiul Hukam al-Quran, by Muhammad Ibn Ahmad Qurtubi, v6, p219
(6) Tafsir al-Khazin, v2, p68
(7) Durr al-Manthur, by al-Suyuti, v2, pp 293-294
(8 ) Asbab al-Nuzool, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, Egypt 1382, v1, p73 on the
authority of Ibn Abbas
(9) Asbab al-Nuzool, by al-Wahidi
(10) Sharh al-Tjrid, by Allama Qushji
(11) Ahkam al-Quran, al-Jassas, v2, pp 542-543
(12) Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, p391
(13) al-Awsat, by Tabarani, narrated from Ammar Yasir
(14) Ibn Mardawayh, on the authority of Ibn Abbas

This issue of Ali (RA) giving sadaqa is refuted elsewhere (Dr Ahmad Salamah) anyway.

Evidence,please!

There are two versions of this story from Shia books

Usool al Kafi (Kitab al Hujjat p 177)


In Imamat by S Rizvi p 36

So? What's your point?

Now what do we say about this verse and the Shia ahadeeth on the matter
(1. Qur'an verse 5:55 has plural pronouns all through. If Allah intended Ali, he would have used singular tenses and pronouns. The argument that Allah uses the royal we for Himself is irrelevant here. We are not talking about Allah

There are other verses in the Quran,revealed about individuals,where plural prounouns are used,to send the message as a general declaration,and also to avoid using names.

Example:

"They say: If we return to Medina the mightier (element) will soon drive out the weaker." (63:8 )

There is also verse 3:144 which was revealed in condemnation of Umar in Uhud.it uses plural.in many cases where praise or condemnation of an individual can lead to either approval or rejection by a party of Muslims,you see that there is the approach of addressing the Muslims by Allah while using plural pronouns in relation to the individual's action,for the sake of generality,and also honor as in the case of Imam Ali (as) in 5:55.

(2. It was generally known that Ali (RA) was a poor man. A poor man giving a mantle of 2,000 dirhams away is strange. Shia sources testify to the financial status of Ali.

I'm not sure what you're referring to as strange: Imam Ali (as) being this generous or Imam Ali (as) being in possession of such valuable item?

If its the former,then you just need to look at Surat Insan,where Imam Ali (as) and his wife (as)-the Prophet's (sa) daughter- went on for days consecutively fasting because the little food they had available was given to the poor,who came knocking for help during ramadan.

If its the latter,then its evident enough that Imam Ali (as) did not bring out cash from his pocket to give the poor man charity.he had to let go of his asset in form of a ring to help the poor.it shows there was no money.

Majilisi Jalal Ayun v2 page 65 and 179,

(3. In both ahadeeth, the beggar was apparently a Muslim. But he did not respect the sanctity of Salat. That alm must be given during salat!

That is your assumption.the beggar came to the mosque for alms.as evident from the full naration of the incident,it was NOT time for congregational or obligatory prayer.Imam Ali (as) was offering a nafilah.that is even more evident when the narration states that the Prophet (sa) was in his house,and came out with the revealed verse 5:55,after the incidence.he then questioned the beggar who had given him help.

(4. Salat is obligatory while sadaqa is voluntary. Would Ali (S) a man who was an astute faqih interrupt an obligatory act to do what is voluntary? There are reports to the testify to how seriously Ali took Salat. Even he was attacked while praying Fajr. Did he void his Khushoo? No. But this stories imply he did for a beggar whose life was NOT in danger

Don't rush.haste is of shaitan.

The prayer offered here was not obligatory as evident from the narration.so helping the poor man who was disappointed that no one could help him in the Prophet's (sa) mosque takes precedence,as per Suratul Dhahr: "and the needy do not turn away".

(5. Is it not curious that the Prophet of Allah (SAW) and other companions ignored the beggar while only Ali broke ranks by giving something to the beggar? And Allah condoned the action of Ali and immediately rewarded Ali by revealing the verse. So Ali exceeded the Prophet (SAW) in virtue!
Interesting!

Lol
It looks like you're now rushing to become a full-fledge nasibi.slow down.for the third time,it is evident from the narration the Prophet (sa) was absent when the poor man came to the mosque.but for a Sunni who misinterprets Surat Abasa and claim it was the Prophet (sa) who "frowned and turn his face" at a poor blind man (in another incident),you have no right to talk about the Prophet's (sa) virtues.you have no higher moral ground to preach to a Shia on the Prophet's (sa) virtues.

ghazzal: Zhul-fiqar, please tell me, can i give sadaqah while praying.... if Someone did this once and God recognised him well as you claim with this verse (5:55), can i do the same?

also did you ever think of it if Alli (ra) would be concentrating in his prayers to be able to give sadaqah while praying? will this be an example for the ummah to follow? I believe there is a misunderstanding here. Why do you refuse to think of "bow" in that verse as humility or is it not a possible option?

Please read my above reply to Betathing.thanks.