PAGAN 9JA:



this is also why all ethnic legends (creation stories) do not usually talk about the existence or origin of any other peoples, save theirs.

Ethnic legends do not refer to other groups because the legends are meant to Whole. If Greeks knew there were other supreme gods other than Zeus, do you think they wouldn't have prayed to those other gods. Those legends were started by offspring of the legends. That is why they are referred to as mythologies - mixing facts with stories. Did Oduduwa climb down from a chain? Did Oduduwa really create earth? Would Archilles have lived if his head was split open by an axe since legend as it that his mother didn't protect his heels while bathing him?

PAGAN 9JA:



just because few groups migrated, doesnt mean all groups should migrate. that would be theoretical. not practical.

If life started in Ethiopia, then ALL groups migrated, including early Ethiopians (or the ape forms).

MetaPhysical:

Two things:

1. Where did Bello get the message from? He at least admitted he was not the origin of the knowledge.

2. You do not dispute, based on your numerous references (im glad you now call them references and not proofs or facts), that Oduduwa is foreign. Where he is from,? Any reference, thought, knowledge, theories, suggestions will help.

Beside all that, Im an independent thinker and have my own style of theorizing based on what is "realistic" and "truthfully" verifiable.

We are looking for the origin of eba and we know people all over the world eat carbohydrates but cassava is not universally available, even more intriguing, eba is a native dish. So if we find that a land in latin America eats eba...well, its worth looking into to see what connects that land with natives in Nigeria. We cant just dismiss it as some of you are wont to do that because nutritionists have studied it and said there is no connection, therefore its a mere coincidence.

I am not a linguist or etymologist, but based on my gifted ability to understand tongue and the connection between sound, letters and usage, if Iwere one I would be a world renowned. I can explain in Yoruba sounds that most linguists have no definition for.

On the issue of society and legend generally, I want you to reflect upon what Homer represent in the European classics and how the knowledge of him shapes their society wholesale. Reflect upon what Camelot means to the American.

I am not going to answer any more of your questions until you actually propose your own 'hypothesis'. You are introducing irrelevant points into the discussion. I don't get the point about Homer or Camelot. Just make your point.

What is belief or hypothesis of how the Yoruba came to be?

I think evolution happened after pangea. This is logical because pangea led to different climatic conditions as a result of continental shelves travelling away from Africa. This would explain the need for genetic re-programming for adaptability. But then, this would only be true if apes had spread out before pangea.

Katsumoto:

Ethnic legends do not refer to other groups because the legends are meant to Whole. If Greeks knew there were other supreme gods other than Zeus, do you think they wouldn't have prayed to those other gods. Those legends were started by offspring of the legends. That is why they are referred to as mythologies - mixing facts with stories. Did Oduduwa climb down from a chain? Did Oduduwa really create earth? Would Archilles have lived if his head was split open by an axe since legend as it that his mother didn't protect his heels while bathing him?

Zeus is same in every tradition just different name and different personification.

The theory of Oduduwa coming though a chain carrying a bag of sand to create dry land was symbolic

Oduduwa= dark energy that carried atoms

I don't know how to interpret the story properly but Oduduwa there wasn't a man but a universal force

macof:

Zeus is same in every tradition just different name and different personification.

The theory of Oduduwa coming though a chain carrying a bag of sand to create dry land was symbolic

Oduduwa= dark energy that carried atoms

I don't know how to interpret the story properly but Oduduwa there wasn't a man but a universal force

That is a BIIIIIG lie. Don't go there. So who is Zeus in England, Aborigine Australia? Even within Nigeria, the stories of the origin of the different groups do not align, let alone with European gods.

Katsumoto:

Ethnic legends do not refer to other groups because the legends are meant to Whole. If Greeks knew there were other supreme gods other than Zeus, do you think they wouldn't have prayed to those other gods. Those legends were started by offspring of the legends. That is why they are referred to as mythologies - mixing facts with stories. Did Oduduwa climb down from a chain? Did Oduduwa really create earth? Would Archilles have lived if his head was split open by an axe since legend as it that his mother didn't protect his heels while bathing him?

SO all people thought along the same lines as the Greeks? (which I doubt was how the Greeks thought of in the first place)

You are too theoretical Sir.
We are talking about billions of ethnic groups here.
you generalize too much.

Pagan religions hardly care for proselytyzing or "competition" between different Gods and Religions.


You are also doing the mistake committed by the abrahamists, of taking these mythologies literally. They are symbolic of other subliminal meanings. you are taking them literally.

Katsumoto:

If life started in Ethiopia, then ALL groups migrated, including early Ethiopians (or the ape forms).

who said life started in Ehtiopia

740megawatts: I think evolution happened after pangea. This is logical because pangea led to different climatic conditions as a result of continental shelves travelling away from Africa. This would explain the need for genetic re-programming for adaptability. But then, this would only be true if apes had spread out before pangea.

I think so too.

However evolution is a very slow and gradual process and was probably taking place even during the slow waves of migration.

Katsumoto:

That is a BIIIIIG lie. Don't go there. So who is Zeus in England, Aborigine Australia? Even within Nigeria, the stories of the origin of the different groups do not align, let alone with European gods.

Zeus would be considered the King of Gods. so in Hinduism, it would be Indra, in CTR it would be Pan Gu, etc.

again different Gods overlap each other , depending on their force-orientation and other characteristics.

Spirituality is too complex and simple at the same time.

As for England, it depends. Who do you talk of?

The Angles? Saxons? Celts? Britons? Danes? Normans? etc.

PAGAN 9JA:


Zeus would be considered the King of Gods. so in Hinduism, it would be Indra, in CTR it would be Pan Gu, etc.

again different Gods overlap each other , depending on their force-orientation and other characteristics.

Spirituality is too complex and simple at the same time.

As for England, it depends. Who do you talk of?

The Angles? Saxons? Celts? Britons? Danes? Normans? etc.

And who told you that these gods in other groups are Zeus? The only constant amongst all groups is that they worship(ed) gods. There is no need to super-impose European gods on other groups.

This is the problem I have with people who debate using their own beliefs. I have strong religious beliefs as well but you will struggle to know what it is because it doesn't influence me in debates.

Katsumoto:

And who told you that these gods in other groups are Zeus? The only constant amongst all groups is that they worship(ed) gods. There is no need to super-impose European gods on other groups.

This is the problem I have with people who debate using their own beliefs. I have strong religious beliefs as well but you will struggle to know what it is because it doesn't influence me in debates.

Let me give you an example.

Shango is a War God. Thor is a War God. Amadioha is a War God.

All Carry Hammers.

All Throw Lightning.

is this a coincidence?

same goes to other Gods/Goddesses - Fertility, Wisdom, etc.

PAGAN 9JA:



Let me give you an example.

Shango is a War God. Thor is a War God. Amadioha is a War God.

All Carry Hammers.

All Throw Lightning.

is this a coincidence?

same goes to other Gods/Goddesses - Fertility, Wisdom, etc.

That is inconclusive. All ancient groups had the same survival needs, hence why there are similarities in the gods they prayed to. And the Sango carrying hammer was a non-Yoruba creation; as Sango was said to be Thor's cousin.

Katsumoto:

That is inconclusive. All ancient groups had the same survival needs, hence why there are similarities in the gods they prayed to. And the Sango carrying hammer was a non-Yoruba creation; as Sango was said to be Thor's cousin.

Inconclusive? i dont think so.

I can show you many more examples. I just cant think of them now.


inconclusive maybe. but not false.

Lord Sango does carry an implement though.

who said Shango is THors cousin? There is no connecction.

Yorubas didnt know what Thor is.

PAGAN 9JA:



Inconclusive? i dont think so.

I can show you many more examples. I just cant think of them now.


inconclusive maybe. but not false.

Lord Sango does carry an implement though.

who said Shango is THors cousin? There is no connecction.

Yorubas didnt know what Thor is.

I don't doubt that you can show examples. But what I find funny is that on one hand you claimed that evolution happened after migration and then on the other hand you are claiming that there are similarities between gods in different groups. That there is inconsistency.

In any case, you introduced evolution into the debate. Macof fed into it because it fits into his belief of the world being created at Ife. We know that to be false. Ife may have been the pre-eminent Yoruba state at some point but there is nothing to suggest that there weren't other Yoruba groups around at the same time.

Of course I know Yorubas didn't know who Thor was.

Katsumoto:

I don't doubt that you can show examples. But what I find funny is that on one hand you claimed that evolution happened after migration and then on the other hand you are claiming that there are similarities between gods in different groups. That there is inconsistency.

It is a miracle. Paganism is the true way of how religions should be. That is my underlying point.

In any case, you introduced evolution into the debate. Macof fed into it because it fits into his belief of the world being created at Ife. We know that to be false. Ife may have been the pre-eminent Yoruba state at some point but there is nothing to suggest that there weren't other Yoruba groups around at the same time.

Of course I know Yorubas didn't know who Thor was.

He means to say that Yorubas spread from Ife. It doesnt have to be false. It can be true. or it can be the final settling place of the Volta-Congoid people, from where they emerged in their final form as Yorubas.

MetaPhysical:

It is interesting that what you shared here is not in writing and cannot be proven, but you clarified it as your thoughts..or suspicions, given other factors that lend credence to it. Right?

No, that's not right at all. You misunderstood my post. Everything I mentioned can be backed up by a reference to an older source. Whether we agree with that source or not is a legitimate discussion, but there is nothing secret about the sources of information I mentioned. I'll cite them below since I'm guessing you and others may be unfamiliar with them. Keep in mind that I've had to condense these citations by a great deal because there's too much detail to be included on a Nairaland post. I'll start with the history of the settlement of Ife, drawn from the introduction to Reverend Ajayi Crowther's "Vocabulary of the Yoruba Language", the first full Yoruba/English dictionary published in 1852. Readers will note that there is no mention of a figure named Oduduwa:

"It is said by the Yoruba, that fifteen persons were sent from a certain region; and that a sixteenth, whose name was Okkambih, and who was afterwards made King of Yoruba, volunteered to accompany them ... Thus originated the kingdom of Yoruba, which was afterwards called Iffeh; from whence three brothers set out for a further discovery of better countries.

Later in the dictionary, Reverend Crowther defines "Odua, Odudua" as follows:

... Odua, Odudua, a goddess from Ife, said to be the supreme goddess in the world. Heaven and Earth are also called Odudua.--Odudua igba nla meji ade isi (translated: "Heaven and earth are two large calabashes, which being shut can never be opened."

-- From "A Vocabulary of the Yoruba Language" by Bishop Samuel Ajayi Crowther, 1852

Here are some other old references to Odudua as a goddess:

"Odua, or Oduduwa, the universe, [b]or the goddess of Earth and Sky, is located at Ife."

--From Richard Burton, "Abeokuta and the Camaroon Mountains", 1863

"Odudua, or Odua, who has the title of Iya agbe, The mother who receives," is the chief goddess of the Yorubas. The name means "Black One" (dit, to be black; dudit, black), and the negroes consider a smooth, glossy, black skin a great beauty, and far superior to one of the ordinary cigar-colour. She is always represented as a woman sitting down, and nursing a child.

Odudua is the wife of Obatala, but she was coeval with Olorun, and not made by him, as was her husband. Other natives, however, say that she came from Ife, the holy city, in common with most of the other gods, ... The phallus and yoni in juxtaposition are often seen carved on the doors of the temples both of Obatala and Odudua; but this does not seem to have any reference to androgyny, since they are also found similarly depicted in other places which are in no way connected with either of these deities."

From A.B. Ellis, "The Yoruba-Speaking Peoples of the Slave Coast of West Africa", 1894.

There are many other references to the female, primordial nature of Oduduwa but these are fairly easy to find online for yourself. If you're interested in more references in print, I'll cite them from my library when I get a chance at home.

What then is the problem that other thoughts in contradiction of your position must be asked to provide proof, facts and when they dont they are labeled conjectures.

I'm sure we've had this conversation before under your other moniker(s). There is no contradiction in my position. I am able to provide proof (see examples above) but you are not. Informed conjectures are good; that is how knowledge advances. Unfounded speculation is bad; that's guesswork at best or, even worse, propaganda promoted for ethnic, religious or political reasons.

Can you prove your thoughts up there? Im sure not, neither are any facts available specific to the conclusion you surmised. Yet, honestly, it is logical, even though I do not suvscribe to it.

There are many sides to it and each side should erect its theories..but you guys on the indigeneous theory somehow are intimidated by the advocates of the foreign footsteps and it shows in your response. This is the problem I have with you all, not that your theories are not legitimate, your attempt to assert authority on the subject of origin is hugely Eurocentric and unacceptable.

I don't know who the guys on the indigenous theory side are, but I can tell you that your ideas about the Middle Eastern derivation of Yoruba culture have no basis in any research. It has its origins in Sultan Bello's mythic history--influenced by his Islamic faith--that was told to Captain Hugh Clapperton, and it was repeated by Reverend Samuel Johnson in his influential book. You're welcome to continue the guesswork and pseudo-linguistic investigation.

PAGAN 9JA:


It is a miracle. Paganism is the true way of how religions should be. That is my underlying point.



He means to say that Yorubas spread from Ife. It doesnt have to be false. It can be true. or it can be the final settling place of the Volta-Congoid people, from where they emerged in their final form as Yorubas.

1. It is not a miracle; it is an inconsistency.

2. There is no doubt that some Yoruba groups migrated from Ife to other places

3. Language families disproves the theory of evolution after migration. Similarly, scientists have argued that the brain development is necessary for migration.

I really don't get what is so upsetting about migration that some have to cling to this notion that God birthed their nations in their current locations.

Katsumoto:

1. It is not a miracle; it is an inconsistency.

I really don't get what is so upsetting about migration that some have to cling to this notion that God birthed their nations in their current locations.

1. It is a miracle.

you wont understand.

Before Oduduwa there was Orunmila.

Katsumoto:

Yoruba origins has two parts – First, a cosmogonic/mythological one which provides that Olodumare gave the task of creating the world to obatala but Oduduwa ended up completing the task with obatala creating man (American, African, and Old European Mythologies – Yves Bonnefoy); Second, A more realistic historical one in which Oduduwa surreptitiously conquered the Ife area by defeating obatala. Yoruba mythology is no different to Roman or Greek mythology. They are steeped in legend. Oduduwa being a woman, Oduduwa climbing down chains to get to earth are all Yoruba mythological tales. This view was carried orally for centuries until historians started to dig into a more realistic version of Yoruba history.

I agree with your general approach, but I find it inconsistent that you believe Oduduwa's identity as a goddess is just another myth, while Oduduwa's identity as a warrior or immigrant is "realistic". My point is that they are all myths, and the oldest of the recorded myths points to the idea that Oduduwa is the goddess of Earth, worshipped by the Ogboni society. If you like Babatunde Lawal's work, he's a very good source for more about Odudua-as-goddess in his essay "Ejiwapo", on the meaning of twins and duality in Yoruba culture.

I do not believe Oduduwa was Yoruba based on written accounts by Yoruba historians such as Toyin Falola and Isola Olomola. A few books provide that there were small states within Ife – Oke Ora under Oduduwa, Idena under Oreluere, Itapa and Ideta under obatala, Ita Yemoo under Yemoo (obatala’s wife), Igbo Olokun under Olokun (Oduduwa’s wife). It would appear that Oduduwa conquered the other areas because there are separate accounts of revolt against Oreluere and obatala. The battle between Oduduwa and Obatala is staged annually at Ife.

I am fairly certain Toyin Falola and Isola Olomola would disagree with characterizing their work as a validation of the "non-yoruba" variant of Oduduwa's origins. I have both of the books you've cited here at home and having read them several times, I've never come across a claim from either author that "Oduduwa" (whoever he or she may be) was not Yoruba. If you can direct me to a specific page, I'd be happy to check.

Sources
Culture, Politics and Money Among the Yoruba – Toyin Falola
Ife Before Oduduwa (Isola Olomola) an excerpt found in Professor Akijogbin’s The Cradle of a Race

See excerpt from Olodumare, God in Yoruba Belief – Bolaji Idowu

‘It is not certain what his original name was, but it could have been Oduduwa ….. We learn from Oral Tradition that when Oduduwa arrived in Ile Ife, there was already a community of aboriginal people under the leadership of Oreluore. The tradition persists that when Oduduwa arrived with his colonizing party, he at first did not pay any respect to Oreluere or recognize his headship. He was haughty and disdainful in his attitude.’

See also

‘While no one could precisely say what motivate ‘ogboni’ cult or confraternity, to come into being in Ife-Oodaye, but postulations in Yoruba mythology, shed light on the pre-Oduduwa era in the IIe-Ife, when ‘obatala’ and Oreluere were the ruling chieftains of the Aborigine Ife-speaking community. ‘Awo’ ogboni, among so many other ‘Awos’(i.e cults) in Ife then, became so prominent and relevant, more as a pressure group to protest the unceremonious arrival of the great colonial master in history, (i.e.) Oduduwa, just as certian people of today’s Nigeria, first resisted the coming of the British imperialism, so also, the aboriginal Ife people and their particularly leader, obatala; vehemently resisted the unexpected arrival of Oduduwa and his followers into Ile-ife. But when they could not withstand the might and high political network of Oduduwa, these ancient Ife people, resorted to cover activities, by making use of their ogboni group to determine oduduwa’s authority. And in most cases, against oduduwa’s people themselves, who were not their members. Most of these terrorist acts take place during the life time of Queen MOREMI, an Ofa indigene, married to ORANMIYAN, one of the Ife kings at that time.’

http://oloolutof./ogboni-fraternity-the-oyo-perspective/

I find the website you're quoting not really worthy of a scholarly discussion. I do agree with you that there were smaller settlements that coalesced into Ife--traditionally considered to be thirteen, each with a political head using the title "Oba"--and this is well-known and often discussed by Ife historians.

This view of Oduduwa arriving at Ife is re-inforced by Ugbo history which provides that the Ugbo migrated from Ife southwards after losing Ife to Oduduwa. The story of Moremi corroborates this account as the losers resorted to guerilla tactics. I believe you are familiar with the Moremi story. So who was Oduduwa? Where was he really from? I do not believe the Dierk Lange or Sultan Bello accounts because there are far too many inconsistencies in those accounts. The most plausible account to me is the Bini account because 1) It is recorded 2) Why would an established kingdom such as the Bini kingdom accept a complete stranger’s great grandson as king? Oranyan son became king without Oyo conquering Bini.

The Ugbo of present-day Ondo state are unlikely to be the same group of Ugbo from Ife history, but that's more my opinion than anything else so I won't delve into it at this point. The term "Ugbo" and its dialectical variant "Igbo" have a long-established meaning in Yoruba--a bush, a forest, an uncultivated rural area, a grove, a type of bird etc--and the word is common throughout the Yoruba-speaking region. I don't think it would be correct to project present-day ethnonyms far into the past, which is what some folks across the Niger would like to do as well. There's no reason to believe that modern ethnic groups with a similar name are exactly the same as the prehistoric Ugbo of Ife legend.

More interesting to me is the idea that the Bini account is plausible because it is recorded and that they accepted a complete stranger's son. One, as I've mentioned to Physics in earlier discussions, the Bini claim about Ekaladerhan's miraculous escape and ascension to the throne of Ife under a new name was unrecorded until the early 1970s, as far as I'm aware (I am happy to be corrected here). This claim was first made by Aimiuwu in Nigeria Magazine's December 1971 issue. It never appeared in print anywhere before then as far as I've been able to ascertain. The leading indigenous historian of Benin, Jacob Egharevba, never made this claim in any of the editions of his classic "A Short History of Benin", which went through several revisions (some quite substantial) and had the full blessing and cooperation of the Benin court. This is not an ancient claim, as far as I can tell. If Physics is available, he may want to bring up the claim Richard Burton recorded in Benin in the 1860s that they were the source of "civilization" in the Yoruba-speaking area, but there is certainly no reference to Ekaladerhan by Burton and no support for that concept in archaeology. Of course, there is also the clear claim that brasscasting in Benin was derived from Ife sculptural traditions through "Iguegha". Whether you or I should believe this type of "one man cultural transmission" theory of history is another question. I, clearly, do not, which is why I reject the idea in the case of Oduduwa.

On the other hand, the earliest references we have to Benin's relationship with Ife or another polity in its general area (from Duarte Pacheco Pereira and Joao de Barros, two Portuguese writers in the early to mid-1500s) makes it clear that Benin's Obas legitimized their claim to the city's throne by referencing an interior polity and its "Ogane" as their religious and political "holy city" and not the other way round. It is not in dispute that the Ooni of Ife is currently known as the Oghene n'Uhe in Benin.

Where is the historical or archaeological support for the idea that Ife derived any significant part of its culture--it's monarchic traditions, its art corpus, its religion--from Benin? What we have instead are 500-year old references to Benin's religious reverence for a monarch in the Ife area who used a title quite similar to the Ooni's. We also have a royal lineage at Benin that does not use the historical title for an Edo monarch--ogie, ogiso or a variant like ovie in Urhobo. Instead, the title is "Oba", which is patently derived from Yoruba-speaking traditions and is a generic term for "leader" in that area (see the various "Oba" titles of the heads of pre-Ife settlements, or other "oba" titles in the Okun Yoruba area that do not have traditions of political centralization).

Your second point that Benin would have no reason to accept a "complete stranger's son" is equally applicable to Ife. Why would an established political entity with its established art and architectural traditions--here I mean the sculpture in terracotta, stonework, brass, quartz and the paved courtyards and streets--accept a fugitive who had wandered hundreds of miles through the forest and managed to arrive there (bypassing other established polities in the Ondo, Ilesa and Ekiti areas), who did not speak their language? The Benin version does not claim that Ekaladerhan came with an army, since he was expelled from Benin and left in disguise. What motivation then would they have had to suddenly crown this stranger? The story is not a logical one. Whatever the merits of the current Ife version--which claims the Oba of Benin is descended from the son of Oranmiyan--it does not claim a military imposition or a smooth transfer of thrones to an alien people. It presupposes that Benin's citizens must have had some compelling reason to petition "Oduduwa" for a king--they were going through a civil war and there was an interregnum. Ife was the best-known polity in the region and so the court of Benin went to request a ruler. I want to be clear here--I don't believe this story either, but it does try to propose logical reasons for the action by the court of Benin. In the version current with the Oba of Benin, we would have to believe that wandering strangers found in the forest near major cities were regularly crowned kings. This is, of course, unlikely.

Agboniregun was in Ife when Oduduwa arrived there. Oral and written history (Yoruba and Bini) confirms this. Something else to ponder, according to Akinjogbin and other Yoruba historians, there were at least 93 kings before Oduduwa. This fits in well with my belief that there were several Yoruba groups around at the same time as Ife pre-Oduduwa and why the Ijebu have always maintained that they are not from Ife. The Ijebu believe they are originally from Sudan. Being that early civilization started around the Sudan-Nile-Ethiopia corridor before all human sub-groups migrated to different parts of the globe, I am favourably disposed to the Ijebu migration account. And I believe if the Ijebu account is true, then other Yoruba groups also migrated from the Sudan.

I may start sounding repetitive, but we have no proof of a historic "Agboniregun", so the references in oral (and now written) history need to be taken with a grain of salt. The claim of 93 kings before Oduduwa reminds me of the continuously growing number of Ogisos in the Benin tradition, which I have discussed with Physics elsewhere (there is a very good article on this I can recommend for you). Suffice to say that searching for prestige will continuously drive people to claim ever-grander origins without any basis in reality. Where are the connections between Sudan and Ijebu, for instance? The Ijebu don't believe they are originally from Sudan (Obafemi Awolowo would not be likely to agree with that concept, for instance). Rather, the current Awujale of Ijebu--who is a Muslim--has made a claim that links him to other northern Muslim groups. There are, of course, no reasonable linguistic or cultural links between Waddai and Ijebu but I'm sure future historians will have spend as much time debunking this as current ones have spent debunking Sultan Bello's misguided ideas about "Lamrudu", the Middle East and all that.

This is just my view but I am always open to more knowledge if verifiable.

Always great to debate these issues with well-read and civil companions, even if we disagree. I have mentioned his name here so often I feel like I'm being paid to promote the man, but the best references I can give you on the dispassionate investigation of Yoruba culture is Ade Obayemi. I don't agree with everything the man says, but he was a brilliant iconoclastic scholar during the golden age of Yoruba history in the 1970s, and his work is still the most insightful analysis of these issues that I've read. Unfortunately, since he mostly published in Nigeria, his articles are hard to find outside the country. If you have a chance, please read his essay in "Groundwork of Nigerian History" as well as the ones published by the Journal of the Historical Society of Nigeria. They will explain my general views much more eloquently than this post.

I've also mentioned Suzanne Preston Blier's "Art and Risk in Ancient Yoruba: Ife History, Power, and Identity, ca. 1300", which is scheduled to be published next month and will be a major addition to the list of books on this topic. Her most recent essay on Ife art history was just published and is excellent, although she uncritically accepts the idea that Oduduwa was a warrior king.

@ TerraCotta

In Toyin Falola's book, Oduduwa is referred to as male and the Olokun as his wife. It also provides that there was a battle between Oduduwa and Obatala. Interestingly, Falola mentions Ade Obayemi in that book.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=KxL03_ajZNgC&pg=PA7&dq=ife+before+oduduwa&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FrhmUrb2BsqAygGr7YCwDQ&ved=0CFsQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=ife%20before%20oduduwa&f=false

If I can find Isola Olomola's book on Google as well, I will post the relevant pages.

So my question to you - you believe Oduduwa to be female and that she was indigenous to Ife?

I have read Babatunde Lawal's Ejiwapo. It's Friday and my brain is tired. I may return to re-read your post over the weekend.

Thanks

740megawatts,

I saw what you wrote in previous page and I will let it go. My issues with his biased position are less important than the gains if I remain open minded and reflect on his contributions, but he (katsumoto) still owe me an explanation of where the strange Oduduwa came from. If Oduduwa is not an AfroAsian as I believe he is, and which Katsumoto dismisses, Mr Katsumoto or someone else in his camp owe us a verifiable link to Oduduwa's known origin. Unless we are to embrace the myth and say he originated from heaven and was droppeddown a chain into our midst . Im sure we all have issues with that.

Terracota,

Would it be a stretch to ask that you pair your subjects in the response above with characters in the Bible and see if there's a match?

The depiction of Oduduwa as a male and female gender has similitude with the Biblical narration of Adam in Genesis and wherewith before he had finished his work on Adam GOD declared: ...and Male and Female we created him.

In rdference to Ejiwapo, Genesis equally present a model for duality. Everything in the creation is ordered in pair opposite.

I had a different bone of contention to pick with you on veracity and timelines of records but Im applying the same discretion here as I did with Katsumoto and standing down with open mindedness and for the benefit of the collective as 740 has rightly called for.

Pagan,

I observed that you have a knack for challenging people to prove this Meccan tradition and Yoruba beginnings in it. I have sidelined you and avoided in the past from taking you on that challenge, but not anymore.

I studied your posts, you are an expert, or close to being one, on the Yarub and Himyar clans, and generally you appear to be very familiar and well read on the history of Arabia and the pre-Islamic age. Most other people here do not have that exposure and its difficult for them to connect concepts related to nonIslamic Arabian culture. Similar to how people think every Ibrahim from the North is Muslim, they also think everything Arabian is Islam. So you will be the ideal channell through which I may afterall connect the dots between Yoruba worship and Meccan traditions and prove that it is unique, as opposed to universal.

For a start, using your understanding or expertise on the Arabian culture and English words and customs I would like you to tell us if "Salute" in English language is a cognate for "Salat" in Arabic.

Katsumoto: @ TerraCotta

In Toyin Falola's book, Oduduwa is referred to as male and the Olokun as his wife. It also provides that there was a battle between Oduduwa and Obatala. Interestingly, Falola mentions Ade Obayemi in that book.

I know that Dr. Falola's books, and virtually every other mainstream historian, characterize Oduduwa as a man. Even Ade Obayemi does in most of his work. My point is not that Oduduwa was "really" a man or a woman--the point is that Oduduwa is a mythological character whose identity is shaped by political motivations in the case of current Ife, Benin etc. claims. In my view, it is unlikely there was ever a single man or woman named Oduduwa, and the earliest references I know of to someone named Oduduwa seem to be to an Ife goddess associated with the Ogboni society in Ife.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=KxL03_ajZNgC&pg=PA7&dq=ife+before+oduduwa&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FrhmUrb2BsqAygGr7YCwDQ&ved=0CFsQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=ife%20before%20oduduwa&f=false

So my question to you - you believe Oduduwa to be female and that she was indigenous to Ife?

I think I've clarified this now. In my opinion, Oduduwa is part of a complex of Yoruba mythic references to powerful figures and leadership. The word "Odu" is in fact an archaic word for "political head" or chief. We can see it in use with several other mythic terms with which the name shares some similarities, like Ol"odu"mare and "Odu" Ifa.

I believe Reverend Johnson's excellent book "History of the Yorubas" has some well-known flaws when discussing events before the 19th century. I think many modern readers (historians and non-specialists alike) have relied on his interpretation of Oduduwa as a warrior-king or ancestor of other kings in the general Yoruba-Edo region. As I showed in the other post, other historians who wrote before and after Johnson disagree with his view, but eventually Johnson's view has become the mainstream one. Notably, in Ketu (considered the eldest of the "original" kingdoms), Oduduwa is considered a woman.

There are references to possible historical figures who initiated new dynasties at Ife--Lajamusan, Oranmiyan and others--but even these are not certain. There are even other locations named Ife (or dialectical variations like Ufe, Ife, Iffeh etc), including Ife-Ijummu, which is Obayemi's hometown. History is a lot more complex than the simplified story of a single man or even a single dynasty.

I have read Babatunde Lawal's Ejiwapo. It's Friday and my brain is tired. I may return to re-read your post over the weekend.

Okay. Look forward to talking some other time.

MetaPhysical: Terracota,

Would it be a stretch to ask that you pair your subjects in the response above with characters in the Bible and see if there's a match?

I don't see any reason for doing this so I would have to decline. What does Ile-Ife, Oduduwa and Yoruba have to do with Israel? Possibly even less than they have to do with Arabia.

The depiction of Oduduwa as a male and female gender has similitude with the Biblical narration of Adam in Genesis and wherewith before he had finished his work on Adam GOD declared: ...and Male and Female we created him.

In rdference to Ejiwapo, Genesis equally present a model for duality. Everything in the creation is ordered in pair opposite.

Again, these are two separate philosophical and religious traditions. In my view, Genesis and the Bible (and by extension, the Qu'ran and Torah) are no more applicable to understanding precolonial Yoruba history and culture than Hindu scriptures or Chinese history. If Nigeria had been colonized by Buddhists and Hindus, we would likely see attempts to derive Nigerian cultural history from these traditions as well.

MetaPhysical: Pagan,

I observed that you have a knack for challenging people to prove this Meccan tradition and Yoruba beginnings in it. I have sidelined you and avoided in the past from taking you on that challenge, but not anymore.

I studied your posts, you are an expert, or close to being one, on the Yarub and Himyar clans, and generally you appear to be very familiar and well read on the history of Arabia and the pre-Islamic age. Most other people here do not have that exposure and its difficult for them to connect concepts related to nonIslamic Arabian culture. Similar to how people think every Ibrahim from the North is Muslim, they also think everything Arabian is Islam. So you will be the ideal channell through which I may afterall connect the dots between Yoruba worship and Meccan traditions and prove that it is unique, as opposed to universal.

For a start, using your understanding or expertise on the Arabian culture and English words and customs I would like you to tell us if "Salute" in English language is a cognate for "Salat" in Arabic.

Salat is prayer.

it has nothing to do with "salute".

MetaPhysical:

Thank You!! Now, stay on that thought..

Islam has many pillars and traditions, I hope you are familiar with them. Give us top 10 listing of articles of Islamic faith borrowed from pre Islamic Arab. We will go around the globe and test their universality and see where we find traces of these old practice.

Over to you..

I just remembered to answer this question.

What is funny is that, of the 6 pillars of islam, none are pre-islamic, save the last one (ehich is again subject to debate) .

Anyways, some pre-islamic customs in todays islam:

-Circumambulation of the Ka'abah.
- Use of the Ka'abah itself.
-Acknowledgement of the black stone.
-The black stone's outer silver casing is shaped similar to a womans ------. I dont know if this is a coincidence or the shape has remained unchanged, or whether the ottomans built it that way and it has remained. if it is true, then this must be a fertility symbol, as people are known to carress and kiss the stone as well.
-The forbidding of killing of Rabbits, Ghazelle and cutting down of trees in and around the premises of the Ka'abah. Hunting is prohibited, and it is known as Haram (Forbidden). This shows that Mecca is a Hauta, i.e., a sacred grove. There are many such Hautas found across Arabia were hunting and lopping of date trees is forbidden. These are sites of long-forgotten shrines and cults.
-ritual abolution.
-use of the Zamzam spring and its sacredness. It is common in sacred groves to have sacred springs, the water of which wouldve been used in he past for actual ritual purposes.
-Running between the hills of Safa and Marwah.
-Bowing and mode of worship to the God.
-Acknowledgement of Allah.
-Belief in the Fates.
-Lunar Calender, sacredness of the Moon.
-Festival of Ramadaan. Festival of Eid.
-Sacrifice of Rams. (Animal Sacrifice)
-Use of Poetry in prayer.

etc. .

TerraCotta:

I don't see any reason for doing this so I would have to decline. What does Ile-Ife, Oduduwa and Yoruba have to do with Israel? Possibly even less than they have to do with Arabia.



Again, these are two separate philosophical and religious traditions. In my view, Genesis and the Bible (and by extension, the Qu'ran and Torah) are no more applicable to understanding precolonial Yoruba history and culture than Hindu scriptures or Chinese history. If Nigeria had been colonized by Buddhists and Hindus, we would likely see attempts to derive Nigerian cultural history from these traditions as well.

I didnt ask for relations between the two cultures, but you cannot separate Yoruba from humanity. Nature is founded in the principles of duality and paired opposites. Arabs and Jews can tell you where theirs is from. Where is Yoruba's from and are there manuscripts that establishes that order? I know you will say Ifa in response to that, to which you can bet I will open a can of worms and start comnecting piece by piece elements between Ifa and the Jewish scripture.

PAGAN 9JA:


Salat is prayer.

it has nothing to do with "salute".

You answered Salat, now give answer for Salute.

PAGAN 9JA:


I just remembered to answer this question.

What is funny is that, of the 6 pillars of islam, none are pre-islamic, save the last one (ehich is again subject to debate) .

Anyways, some pre-islamic customs in todays islam:

-Circumambulation of the Ka'abah.
- Use of the Ka'abah itself.
-Acknowledgement of the black stone.
-The black stone's outer silver casing is shaped similar to a womans ------. I dont know if this is a coincidence or the shape has remained unchanged, or whether the ottomans built it that way and it has remained. if it is true, then this must be a fertility symbol, as people are known to carress and kiss the stone as well.
-The forbidding of killing of Rabbits, Ghazelle and cutting down of trees in and around the premises of the Ka'abah. Hunting is prohibited, and it is known as Haram (Forbidden). This shows that Mecca is a Hauta, i.e., a sacred grove. There are many such Hautas found across Arabia were hunting and lopping of date trees is forbidden. These are sites of long-forgotten shrines and cults.
-ritual abolution.
-use of the Zamzam spring and its sacredness. It is common in sacred groves to have sacred springs, the water of which wouldve been used in he past for actual ritual purposes.
-Running between the hills of Safa and Marwah.
- Bowing and mode of worship to the God
-Acknowledgement of Allah.
-Belief in the Fates.
-Lunar Calender, sacredness of the Moon.
-Festival of Ramadaan. Festival of Eid.
-Sacrifice of Rams. (Animal Sacrifice)
-Use of Poetry in prayer.

etc. .

Thank you, I like your list and I will keep it. Everyone of these list came from preIslamic practice.

Kaabah was a shrine and still is a shrine and the circumabulation came from what is oftem referred as "dance of the circle" in modern observations of ritual worship, but is an ancient practice.

I do want to highlight that the single most observed position of worship anywhere in the world is "KNEELING".

In preIslamic Mecca, the shriners prayed to objects..carved objects depicting deities. They will enter the shrine where these objects are kept on altar and get on "knees" and "bow" to the ground.

In Yoruba language these objects are called "SIGIDI".

What does does sigidi mean in Yoruba language? I dont know..but I know its application.

The act of kneeling and bowing to the ground in Yoruba is called "S'OJU DE".

The object of the "s'oju de" act is what we call "sigidi".

This principle was borrowed from the shriners and introduced into Islam and became "SIGD", from which you have the term "SAJADAH" when a Muslim bows head to the ground.

To be continued..later.