striktlymi:

Mind telling us how?

In that particular chapter, it is stated that Pharoah was raised up for that particular purpose in order for God to be glorified. Also, the verse tends to give the notion that God controls every aspect of our life and we have no say in the matter.

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in allthe earth.” [ g ]
18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden

ooman said it himself. He believes in God.

Reyginus: ooman said it himself. He believes in God.

Get thee behind me Satan - How could i believe in God

ooman:

Get thee behind me Satan - How could i believe in God

But you said so yourself.

Reyginus: But you said so yourself.

quote me

^^^Lol. You don't have to edit it. That's too bad.

Reyginus: ^^^Lol. You don't have to edit it. That's too bad.

what

inspiredbyGOD:.:
In that particular chapter, it is stated that Pharoah was raised up for that particular purpose in order for God to be glorified. Also, the verse tends to give the notion that God controls every aspect of our life and we have no say in the matter.

Good evening inspired,

The passage you quoted is not substantially different from:

Exodus 14:4
King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord. And they did so.

I have given my thoughts on this earlier.

striktlymi:

Good evening inspired,

The passage you quoted is not substantially different from:

Exodus 14:4
King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord. And they did so.

I have given my thoughts on this earlier.

Read the verse again ; it didn't just talk about pharoah, it also talked about Esau being hated for no reason . It was showing God's absolute superiority over man.Also check Genesis 15:13-14

13 LORD said to him, “Know for
certain that for four hundred
years your descendants will be
strangers in a country not their
own and that they will be
enslaved and mistreated there.
14 But I will punish the nation
they serve as slaves, and
afterward they will come out
with great possessions.

This is God telling Abraham about what the Israelites would go through in Egypt and how he would bring them out. This was before Jacob was even born.

inspiredbyGOD:.:
Read the verse again ; it didn't just talk about pharoah,

The explanation I gave cuts across. It is not just for the Pharaoh ish. The same can be applied to Judas and whoever seem to be without freewill.

inspiredbyGOD:.:

it also talked about Esau being hated for no reason .

The truth we sometimes fail to grasp is that, God hates all manners of sin. If you say Esau was hated for no reason, that would be inaccurate. The only thin God hates in Esau is his life of sin.

inspiredbyGOD:.:

It was showing God's absolute superiority over man.Also check Genesis 15:13-14

God is actually superior to man and that superiority is absolute.

inspiredbyGOD:.:

This is God telling Abraham about what the Israelites would go through in Egypt and how he would bring them out. This was before Jacob was even born.

I have explained why the above is before. Kindly refer to my earlier post.

musKeeto:

Hi inspired..

Was my response on your 'If I were an atheist' thread responsible for your recent soul searching?

Many things were responsible and yes, your comment on that thread is part of it.

striky, I have posted your reply.

striktlymi:



The explanation I gave cuts across. It is not just for the Pharaoh ish. The same can be applied to Judas and whoever seem to be without freewill.

Guess I'll have to read your initial post again.

The truth we sometimes fail to grasp is that, God hates all manners of sin. If you say Esau was hated for no reason, that would be inaccurate. The only thing God hates in Esau is his life of sin.

The bible says Esau was hated before he was even born, it never said Esau was hated for being sinful

God is actually superior to man and that superiority is absolute.

Exactly the point Paul was trying to pass across; man's inability to resist God's will. The truth is there is no freewill but just God's will.

I have explained why the above is before. Kindly refer to my earlier post.

Okay, that I'll certainly do.

Good morning ooman,

Pardon me but I couldn't hold back, I just had to laugh really hard...your response is a bit below the standards you have set for yourself. Let's take a cursory look at your response...shall we?

ooman:
You were illogical for commenting before reading the OP. I never knew some people write first before thinking!

First of, I fail to see how I defiled the 'bedroom' of logic by commenting before reading the OP despite the fact that I made the following comments:

striktlymi: Good afternoon bros,

Sorry I did not read the OP for a justifiable reason: How can someone who you believe does not exist be a fraudster?

The above renders your accusations false! My comment above demonstrated that I did not just post without a thought on the matter.

ooman:
Prevarication.

'Evading the truth' pretty much sums up the meaning of the word. But what truth is there to evade and how have I evaded it? Let's put your 'defense' to the test:

ooman:
In Isaiah, it was said that god knows all things before they happen. Isaiah 46v10 says Only i can tell you what is going to happen before they happen. Everything i plan will come to pass, for i do whatever i wish.

The above defense is quite lame really cause I never denied the above nor try to evade it. The above is true for all time! God knows all that was, is, and is to come; this I say without mincing words.

ooman:
In Revelation 17v17 it was said that god plans and control the affairs of man. It says that For god has put a plan into their minds, a plan that will carry out his purposes.... so now, it is plain that God has aleeady decided the course of event and so freewill remains a fraud.

You know I hate repeating myself Anyways, for the avoidance of doubt see my response below:

striktlymi:
What we should understand is that, God is the creator of the free will of man. God can take away this free will at a moments notice if he so desires. It is widely believed that silence can be taken for consent. If President Obama is aware that another plots to commit murder without doing something about it (despite his ability to prevent this), it can be said that Obama is directly or indirectly responsible even though he did not partake in the act.

This is because, Barrack can do something about it but decided not to. If he did something about it, the murder would not have taken place, so his silence can be said to be as good as committing the act himself.

Note that in Revelation 17:17, all we have is a situation whereby God is 'guilty as charged' for given man freewill. Everything we do on Earth without being forced is done from the 'will' and this 'will' is given to us by God. Whatever we decide to do with this God given 'will' (whether good or bad) is entirely up-to us. The passage again:

Revelation 17:17
Good News Translation (GNT)
17 For God has placed in their hearts the will to carry out his purpose by acting together and giving to the beast their power to rule until God's words come true.

The 'will' to choose right from wrong has been given to us. If we choose to do wrong, it does not take away the fact that God is the one who gave us that 'will' as enumerated in that passage of sacred scriptures. The bottom line is: there is freedom of choice.

ooman:
Prevarication - God plans man's action according to the bible. God determines the course of action of man, knows what will happen next,

It is true that God always have a plan for every man and that God knows what will happen next but very false and inaccurate to say that God determines the actions of man. I have explained why some part of sacred scriptures seem to suggest that God determines our actions so I won't go into this.

ooman:
which must happen if God is to remain omniscient and after each event,

Point of correction...not every plan of God comes to fulfillment. If you read through John 2:4-10 you would see one of such cases. God has a plan for when Christ would start his public ministry but this plan did not come to pass as he started his ministry before the appointed time due to a request from his Mother. Verse 4 of that chapter reads:

John 2:4
Good News Translation (GNT)
The Wedding in Cana

4 “You must not tell me what to do,” Jesus replied. “My time has not yet come.”

ooman:
god lies to man and blames man's freewill. God understands much more than you do that man does not have freewill but still, he blames man for evil, then defrauded us into life time of worship.

Another baseless accusations!

ooman:
LIE-As i have shown again.

You have actually shown little or nothing!

ooman:
Freewill and omniscience are mutually exclusive.

I agree with the above. Indeed man's freewill and God's omniscience are exclusive. They both co-exist without conflict. I have already demonstrated this in my first response so no need going through it again.

ooman:
For an omniscient being to remain omniscient, everything must happen according to his knowledge.

Oh, now I see where the ish is coming from. God knows everything i.e he has perfect knowledge and I agree that for one to be omniscient, everything must happen according to his knowledge but this is not the same as influencing everything to happen in that way. Knowing about something before it happens is different from making that thing happen in accordance with your knowledge.

ooman:
There is no denying that omniscience destroys freewill and freewill destroys omniscience.

Interesting thought but they are just your thoughts and do not constitute proof. I have demonstrated repeatedly that one can be omniscient without infringing on another's right to freedom of thoughts and actions.

ooman:
God does not exist if we have freewill

This is very funny! How does this prove the existence or non-existence of God? The only way you can demonstrate that God does not exist with this gimmick is by showing that there exist a conflict between man's free will and God's omniscient. I have demonstrated, almost needlessly, that this is not the case.

ooman:
and if he exist, then he is a fraud for making man think his mistakes are results of freewill.

I have already put to rest the above.

ooman:
BIG LIE @ bold.

No matter how much Jack dallied he must still go for the option the omniscient one knows or the omniscient one becomes invalid. Why do you have to deny the obvious. Am not surprised though, its typical of the religious.

You really are a piece of work You mean, knowing what will happen is the same as making it happen? Check out your logic:

Striktlymi is the man who saw tomorrow...

Striktlymi knew that the world trade centre would be blown up...

Striktlymi therefore blew up the world trade centre...

Does that make any sense? If you accuse me of withholding sensitive information, then I will be guilty as charged but to accuse me of making the bombers perform the act is very incorrect. ooman abeg your logic is more than this...use it!!!

ooman:
Jack would make such decision thinking it was based on his freewill. But the omniscient one already knows what Jack would choose and Jack MUST choose that for the omniscient one to remain valid. Freewill is therefore only a delusion.

Striktlymi is the man who saw tomorrow...

Striktlymi knew that the world trade centre would be blown up...

Striktlymi therefore blew up the world trade centre...

ooman:
That is exactly the fraud here. Jack only have an illusion of freewill to choose but he must choose what the omniscient one already knows for his omniscience to remain valid.

Knowledge of something is different from making someone do what you know!

ooman:
According to the bible, Isa. and Rev. i quoted, god plans man's course of action. Freewill is nullified.

I have sent that argument to the 'recycle bin'!

ooman:
You seem not to understand the main point here. It is that since God already know that decision BEFORE it was made as you say, then for his omniscience to remain valid, the decision he knows MUST be the one taken, if not, his omniscience is invalid and that is the fraud here.

Guy, I understand your argument but it is very flawed. The fact that an omniscient being has perfect knowledge does not undermine the choices Jack decides to make. Jack has the option of choosing A, Choosing another option apart from A, and not choosing any option at all.

God knows the options Jack has to make, the dilemma he might face in making the decision and the final decision he comes up with. This knowledge God has does not stop Jack from choosing what he wants. Remember that there is the option of not going with anything if he so desires just like one can decide to stop making choices by taking his own life.

There is always the choice to choose and that choice comes from one's freewill.

ooman:
Your demonstrations are invalid as i have shown.

Nope!!!

ooman:
I promise you a new thread on that soon.

ooman:
LIE+PREVARICATION

Hmmm...

ooman:
You obviously decided to ignore the main point.

I did not ignore any point!

ooman:
The points are 1- God knew they were gping to eat yet pretended he never knew and punished them.

Laughable!!! If you have a kid and the child decides to destroy your television knowingly and with intent...you knew about this and decided to act like you are not in the know when you asked your child...does this sound like anything out of the ordinary? Is it wrong to do this? Anyways, no one's freewill was affected by this.

ooman:
2- Because God knew they were going to eat, then they must eat for him to remain omniscient.

Knowing something is different from making someone do what you know!

ooman:
Their freewill is only an illusion. A fraud to make them think they owed him worship which worked anyway, which is why you continue to worship God.

Your opinion! Your right!!

ooman:
No one is talking about the devil here. When will you stop this prevarication and face the main point.

Since when has making a reference to something else to demonstrate a point turned to an evasion of the truth?

ooman:
The decision to eat is not theirs.

Not theirs? May be the decision was yours then

ooman:
It is an action they must perform for god's dumb plan to work. And because god already knew they would eat BEFORE they ate, then they must eat for god to remain omniscient. Am not blaming god here, am accusing him of fraud, am calling him a fraud because that is what god or at least the idea of god is.

I have put the above accusations to rest...no need explaining again.

ooman:
God didnt just feign ignorance, he also punished them and inveigled them into worshipping him by making them think they owed him. God is a criminal and a fraud.

If you 'punish' that child for the damage he caused, would that be inappropriate just because you acted as if you did not know? . That means every under cover operation of the police should be rendered invalid because they pretend not to know what they know.

ooman:
I have demonstrated that multiple times now. Its time you stop prevaricating and face the obvious truth.

For your mind o!

ooman:
Your responses are wrong, lies and prevarications

Prove it na!

ooman:
I have substantiated my claims multiple tines.

The substance of your substantiation needs to be substantiated cause it is highly unsubstantial

ooman:
STOP THIS PREVARICATION.

Judas did not have any option but to betray jesus. Failure to do that would mean God is not omniscient anymore.

I have demonstrated why that claim is wrong!

ooman:
Dont you know what omniscience mean and are you denying the bible verses i quoted. Dang, you are annoying.

This is it:

om·nis·cient [om-nish-uhnt]
adjective
1. having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.
noun
2. an omniscient being.
3. the Omniscient, God.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/omniscient

Now show us which part of the definition of omniscient says one has to be able to impair someone's ability to decide in order to be omniscient.

ooman:
Judas must betray him or god would lose his omniscience. That is the simple point you have been running away from all this while.

Even the definition of omniscient proves you wrong!

ooman:
Here you betray yourself. Did you willingly forget that jesus prayed for peter and so god changed the course of events? STOP YOUR LIES MAN.

Jesus actually prayed for all his disciples John 17:6-26

ooman:
I have substantiated all my claims with facts, its time you stopped your prevarications.

What are you thanking me for?

You have substantiated nothing!

ooman: striky, I have posted your reply.

Responded!

striktlymi:

Responded!

you have shown a great level of intellectual failure by implying that mutual exclusion means two things can exist together. Do I have to teach you that it means two things CANNOT exist together?

you continue to prevaricate, indeed evading the truth.

I am yet to decide if am to take you seriously on this matter since you lack knowledge of what mutual exclusion means, how can you possibly understand the OP.?

striktlymi: I agree with the above. Indeed man's freewill and God's omniscience are exclusive. They both co-exist without conflict. I have already demonstrated this in my first response so no need going through it again.

there is your blunder.

on mobile now, once am on PC, I will spell out the problems that you failed to see.

inspiredbyGOD:.:
Guess I'll have to read your initial post again.

Cool!

inspiredbyGOD:.:

The bible says Esau was hated before he was even born, it never said Esau was hated for being sinful

The mistake people make is trying to turn Sacred scriptures into a text book. You see people trying to explain Geography, English Language etc using the bible. That is not the intended purpose. It is known that God hates any sin and it is impractical for God to hate what he made in his own image and likeness. Sin is not in the image or likeness of God and it is something he hates.

God knew before Esau was born that he would lead a life of sin and as such he has already hated that in Esau. The ish you may see now is, why did God allow Esau to turn out the way he did since he knows that Esau would offend him and my frank reply would be I don't know!

What I do know is the fact that God has made it a part of his principles not to make decisions for man when freewill comes to play.

inspiredbyGOD:.:

Exactly the point Paul was trying to pass across; man's inability to resist God's will. The truth is there is no freewill but just God's will.

Well the above is quite inaccurate. The 'will' of man is God's making! Without God there won't be anything called freewill in the first place. God did not hard-wire his creatures to follow a set of scripts which cannot be changed right from when they start to exist.

If God has done this, then we wouldn't have been made in his image and likeness. God is a free being who can make his own decisions without any outside influence. This ability he shared with man and when we are not forced to do something, then we exhibit this trait of God.

I did explain why some parts of Sacred scriptures seem to suggest otherwise. The reason again is that the 'will' we put into good or bad actions comes from God. He is responsible for our having it in the first place. So whatever choice we make is through the instrumentality of this 'will' he has given. So whether we choose good or evil, God can be said to have made it so since he gave us this 'will' but the choice we make is ours irrespective of this 'freewill' God has given. In a nutshell you can say God created the 'will' but we decide what to do with this 'will'.

striktlymi:


God knew before Esau was born that he would lead a life of sin and as such he has already hated that in Esau. The ish you may see now is, why did God allow Esau to turn out the way he did since he knows that Esau would offend him and my frank reply would be I don't know!

What I do know is the fact that God has made it a part of his principles not to make decisions for man when freewill comes to play.

You have just stated a clear reason why your God is a fraud and strengthened the op.

Your God claims to love us human beings and hate sin. Why did he then allow Esau to lead a life of sin since he (God) knew what Esau was going to be before Esau was born?


Abeg.....you must be real dumbazz to even put freewill in hte same post after claiming that God knew that Esau was going to be a sinner before Esau was even born. Esau had no freewill to be good as God has ordained it that Esau will be a sinner.

@op

Two questions:

1. When is this "long ago" that God knew things that would happen?

2. Based on what do you make your arguments?

Ihedinobi: @op

Two questions:

1. When is this "long ago" that God knew things that would happen?

2. Based on what do you make your arguments?

Perhaps you need to go through the thread again for better comprehension, especially your second question.

Logicboy03:


You have just stated a clear reason why your God is a fraud and strengthened the op.

Your God claims to love us human beings and hate sin. Why did he then allow Esau to lead a life of sin since he (God) knew what Esau was going to be before Esau was born?


Abeg.....you must be real dumbazz to even put freewill in hte same post after claiming that God knew that Esau was going to be a sinner before Esau was even born. Esau had no freewill to be good as God has ordained it that Esau will be a sinner.

striktlymi continue to prevaricate and ignore the obvious truth on this matter simply because the concept destroys Gods existence and goodness.

Ihedinobi: @op

Two questions:

1. When is this "long ago" that God knew things that would happen?

2. Based on what do you make your arguments?

did you read the OP at all?

Ooman has made some valid points from an atheist perspective, in fact even as a xtain I sometimes ask myself such questions as the "eden issue" because it seems predetermined to me. Why should I be punished for what destiny already has in store for me? @strictlymi, I usually enjoy your posts but sir, as regards this issue, you need to conceptualize it first from the OP's standpoint and then yours, so that we can strike a balance. That said, please kindly answer these questions, did GOD pre design how we will live our lives or he just knows how things will churn out for all and sundry? If your answer is a yes to any of the 2 questions, then you will understand ooman's submission. Secondly your analogy of the child spoiling the t.v does not do justice to the issue on ground. Sir, here is a better one... If you possess the ability to write the fate of your child, and then you already programmed it such that on that fateful day he will spoil the t.v set... Is it logical for you to discipline the kid or stress the fact that the kid had options to choose from? I believe what I explained is similar to what ooman has been trying to send across. Now, I will appreciate if you explain your views with respect to the issues stated. Thanks
PalmTree

Ihedinobi: @op

Two questions:

1. When is this "long ago" that God knew things that would happen?

2. Based on what do you make your arguments?

Thank Gawd that people have already pointed out your foolishness in asking these questions. It is clear that you dont want to discuss this issue sensibly on this thread.

ooman:

striktlymi continue to prevaricate and ignore the obvious truth on this matter simply because the concept destroys Gods existence and goodness.

Dont worry, he used his own words to contradict himself.....lets wait and see what he will say next

The biggest 'egunu' has finally joined the dance!

Good morning LB and welcome back,

Logicboy03:

You have just stated a clear reason why your God is a fraud and strengthened the op.

Really??

Logicboy03:
Your God claims to love us human beings and hate sin.

Do you love your parents? Do you love the wrong (sin) they commit against you? The last time I checked you had a thread for 'Atheist butt hurt'...do you love these 'butt hurt'? Are you saying that to hate the 'butt hurt' means you hate the people who do those things against you?

There is absolutely nothing wrong in God loving humans and hating the sins they commit.

Logicboy03:
Why did he then allow Esau to lead a life of sin since he (God) knew what Esau was going to be before Esau was born?

He did not interfere because you and ooman would accuse him of impeding the freewill of man. That is what ooman has been accusing him of all this while.

Logicboy03:
Abeg.....you must be real dumbazz

...and the bold is your wonderful logic?

Logicboy03:
to even put freewill in hte same post after claiming that God knew that Esau was going to be a sinner before Esau was even born.

LWKMD!!! You surely can do better than this LB! May be you are match rusty Don't worry, it will come back to you! Now to the crux of the matter...

As I have explained to our dear ooman before, having knowledge of the deed of someone is very different from making the person commit that deed. If I have the gift to see tomorrow, and I saw that LB will be on nairaland, does that imply that I have interfered with your freewill to be or not to be on nairaland?

Logicboy03:
Esau had no freewill to be good as God has ordained it that Esau will be a sinner.

God knew Esau would sin but he never interfered with Esau's choices. He made those all by himself.

Welcome back again

Logicboy03:



Dont worry, he used his own words to contradict himself.....lets wait and see what he will say next

Contradict?? Don't let me ask you whether you know the meaning of the word o!

ooman:

striktlymi continue to prevaricate and ignore the obvious truth on this matter simply because the concept destroys Gods existence and goodness.

LWKMD!!! You guys would need to come up with some 'super duper' logic to demonstrate all that you have accused me of

ooman:

did you read the OP at all?

Matter of fact I did. Do you want to qupte the parts of it that answer me?

Logicboy03:


Thank Gawd that people have already pointed out your foolishness in asking these questions. It is clear that you dont want to discuss this issue sensibly on this thread.

Enyi a, ga hie ura ka m nuru gi ihe. If you have no answers to my questions or cannot show what the foolishness is, just zip your oral cavity, can you.

striktlymi: The biggest 'egunu' has finally joined the dance!

Good morning LB and welcome back,



Really??



Do you love your parents? Do you love the wrong (sin) they commit against you? The last time I checked you had a thread for 'Atheist butt hurt'...do you love these 'butt hurt'? Are you saying that to hate the 'butt hurt' means you hate the people who do those things against you?

There is absolutely nothing wrong in God loving humans and hating the sins they commit.



He did not interfere because you and ooman would accuse him of impeding the freewill of man. That is what ooman has been accusing him of all this while.



...and the bold is your wonderful logic?



LWKMD!!! You surely can do better than this LB! May be you are match rusty Don't worry, it will come back to you! Now to the crux of the matter...

As I have explained to our dear ooman before, having knowledge of the deed of someone is very different from making the person commit that deed. If I have the gift to see tomorrow, and I saw that LB will be on nairaland, does that imply that I have interfered with your freewill to be or not to be on nairaland?



God knew Esau would sin but he never interfered with Esau's choices. He made those all by himself.

Welcome back again

Your comment smacks of arrogance and ignorance.


An omnipotent's foreknowledge is predestination. Such foreknowledge destroys freewill. God knowing that that Esau will be a dirty sinner (before Esau's birth) locks Esau to the path of dirty sinning. Esau can not avoid being tedirty sinner that God has foreknown. Esau has no choice but only to follow the path that God has foreknown. Should Esau become a good guy, God then becomes wrong and non-omniscient.


Same with Judas. He couldnt have stopped himself from betraying Jesus. Judas had no freewill but to betray Jesus as it was ordained in the scriptures and by God.

Freewill killed by your God. Your God fraudulently claims that he gave man freewill