PalmTree:

Perhaps you need to go through the thread again for better comprehension, especially your second question.

Assume that I'm not that smart and show me how the thread has answered me.

Anyway, I was reacting purely to the opening post alone.

striktlymi:

LWKMD!!! You guys would need to come up with some 'super duper' logic to demonstrate all that you have accused me of

simple points you keep ignoring is the fact that since god already knew Esau would sin and hated him already, then Esau must. Failure of Esau to sin would mean that god was WRONG in his visions. Now since god CANNOT be wrong as you religious would argue, then Esau MUST sin. His freewill nullified.

Ihedinobi:

Enyi a, ga hie ura ka m nuru gi ihe. If you have no answers to my questions or cannot show what the foolishness is, just zip your oral cavity, can you.

lol.....dont attack me, others have shown that you are nothing but a dubious commenter. You obviously want to derail with your failed questions.

Like God father like Christian son. FRAUDS!

Attack you ke?

And how have they shown that I'm a dubious commenter?

Dude, that era when you self-proclaimed intellectuals got on by making claims you have no intent to defend is long-dead o. So, be careful what you claim o.

Ihedinobi: Attack you ke?

And how have they shown that I'm a dubious commenter?

Dude, that era when you self-proclaimed intellectuals got on by making claims you have no intent to defend is long-dead o. So, be careful what you claim o.

Abeg shift commot.......dont derail this thread. I'm enjoying seeing Striklymi contradict himself and fumble

Too much for Stryklimi?

Logicboy03:




Your comment smacks of arrogance and ignorance.


An omnipotent's foreknowledge is predestination. Such foreknowledge destroys freewill. God knowing that that Esau will be a dirty sinner (before Esau's birth) locks Esau to the path of dirty sinning. Esau can not avoid being tedirty sinner that God has foreknown. Esau has no choice but only to follow the path that God has foreknown. Should Esau become a good guy, God then becomes wrong and non-omniscient.


Same with Judas. He couldnt have stopped himself from betraying Jesus. Judas had no freewill but to betray Jesus as it was ordained in the scriptures and by God.

Freewill killed by your God. Your God fraudulently claims that he gave man freewill

Good morning Palm,

PalmTree: Ooman has made some valid points from an atheist perspective,

Okay cool!

PalmTree:
in fact even as a xtain I sometimes ask myself such questions as the "eden issue"

I do understand the above! The way I discuss my faith and the questions I ask have made some of my friends sceptical about my being Christian. This really does not bother me cause I know who I am.

PalmTree:
because it seems predetermined to me.

It seems so but it is not so! There are other areas apart from the ish of the Garden of Eden but it takes a proper grasp of Sacred scriptures to understand this. You can refer to some of my earlier posts.

PalmTree:
Why should I be punished for what destiny already has in store for me?

Point of note: there is nothing we are made to do! 'Punishment' is a direct consequence for sin. There are a lot of factors that MUST come to play before one is guilty of sin. Our ability to choose makes us culpable...if God has not given us the gift of free will then no man will be guilty of anything.

No man's destiny is cast in stone...we shape our own destiny by the choices we make. The ish we might have is that God is aware of what we will choose before hand and this really is not the same as shaping one's future for him or her. For God to determine your future, he would need to make your choices for you and this he does not do.

PalmTree:
@strictlymi, I usually enjoy your posts but sir, as regards this issue, you need to conceptualize it first from the OP's standpoint and then yours, so that we can strike a balance.

Thanks for the advice!

PalmTree:
That said, please kindly answer these questions, did GOD pre design how we will live our lives or he just knows how things will churn out for all and sundry?

Well palm, I believe I have answered the above question a number of times. May be you should read my previous responses but for the avoidance of doubt...

There is no blueprint somewhere of how each person will live his/her life, God knows how but he did not determine it for us.

PalmTree:
If your answer is a yes to any of the 2 questions, then you will understand ooman's submission.

The answer to the question on predestination is a NO, while the follow-up question on God's perfect knowledge is a YES! I don't see how my YES helps ooman's case. It's what I have been saying all this while.

PalmTree:
Secondly your analogy of the child spoiling the t.v does not do justice to the issue on ground.

Okay! I respect your opinion on the matter above.

PalmTree:
Sir, here is a better one... If you possess the ability to write the fate of your child, and then you already programmed it such that on that fateful day he will spoil the t.v set... Is it logical for you to discipline the kid or stress the fact that the kid had options to choose from?

Now the above is what ooman is stressing but the truth is that the Father has the ability of doing the above but decided not to. The only 'fault' the Father has is that he knows the child would damage the TV but decided not to interfere and allow it happen. If the dad had interfered it would mean impeding on the right of the child to make his own decision.

PalmTree:
I believe what I explained is similar to what ooman has been trying to send across.

It's the same actually but it is also inaccurate with respect to God.

PalmTree:
Now, I will appreciate if you explain your views with respect to the issues stated. Thanks
PalmTree

That I have done!

Thank you too!

Ihedinobi:

Assume that I'm not that smart and show me how the thread has answered me.

Anyway, I was reacting purely to the opening post alone.

If you actually went through the thread, either you are dumb or not, you won't ask this question.
Ok, since you were only reacting to the OP, I'll rest my case...but its still necessary for you to go through the thread so you don't end up asking questions that have been answered. Ciao

See as Stryklimi dey run from thread ooo!


Why are you avoiding my comment na?

Logicboy03:




Your comment smacks of arrogance and ignorance.


An omnipotent's foreknowledge is predestination. Such foreknowledge destroys freewill. God knowing that that Esau will be a dirty sinner (before Esau's birth) locks Esau to the path of dirty sinning. Esau can not avoid being tedirty sinner that God has foreknown. Esau has no choice but only to follow the path that God has foreknown. Should Esau become a good guy, God then becomes wrong and non-omniscient.


Same with Judas. He couldnt have stopped himself from betraying Jesus. Judas had no freewill but to betray Jesus as it was ordained in the scriptures and by God.

Freewill killed by your God. Your God fraudulently claims that he gave man freewill

in fact even as a xtain I sometimes ask myself
such questions as the "eden issue"

@ striklymi, I was referring to myself with the above and not you.
Now, back to the issue, you mean that God does not design the way a man's life churns out but He knows how it will churn out? Please is there another being out there apart from God that creates the design? Or are you saying God gave man the ability to design for himself while He 'God' is already aware of the outcome? Please clarify.

ooman:

all you religious people just find one excuse or the other to protect this god of yours. One fact remains that no god exist anywhere

convince me please

Logicboy03:
Your comment smacks of arrogance and ignorance.

Well Boss, I don't take baseless accusations to heart!

Logicboy03:
An omnipotent's foreknowledge is predestination.

Why do you keep doing this to yourself? How does foreknowledge translate to predestination? How much do I need to repeat myself before it sinks? Anyways, I will do almost anything for you boss...

Having foreknowledge that something will happen is different from helping someone to make a decision. Predestination presupposes a lack of choice. It implies that the action of man is really not his but those of some supernatural being who ultimately decides the outcome of every action.

For the theory of predestination to work, we must demonstrate that at the minimum, two factors must come in to play: 1) Perfect knowledge (foreknowledge inclusive); 2) The actions of man is influenced in some way. Both these factors MUST be in play for predestination to work.

Omniscient includes the first factor but not the second i.e. omniscient implies that a being has perfect knowledge of what has happened, what is happening and what will happen. Hence, foreknowledge is the only relevant factor in an omniscient being but you erroneously concluded that the foreknowledge of an omnipotent being is predestination.

Logicboy03:
Such foreknowledge destroys freewill.

Foreknowledge does not interfere with a man's actions. This I have demonstrated before.

Logicboy03:
God knowing that that Esau will be a dirty sinner (before Esau's birth) locks Esau to the path of dirty sinning. Esau can not avoid being tedirty sinner that God has foreknown. Esau has no choice but only to follow the path that God has foreknown. Should Esau become a good guy, God then becomes wrong and non-omniscient.

The above are your opinion which in my opinion are baseless accusations!

Logicboy03:
Same with Judas. He couldnt have stopped himself from betraying Jesus. Judas had no freewill but to betray Jesus as it was ordained in the scriptures and by God.

The ish of Judas has been thrashed already!

Logicboy03:
Freewill killed by your God. Your God fraudulently claims that he gave man freewill

Your opinion! Your right!!

achina boy:
convince me please

Well for starters why dont you believe in Osiris, the Egyptian god?

Striktly!!!

Good afternoon. Not read through the thread actually... Anyways, ignoring other issues

striktlymi:


For God to determine your future, he would need to make your choices for you and this he does not do.

This is false, in that it is not a core requirement, at all.

He doesn't need to make any choices for you, what he must be able to do is DETERMINE the future. Via formulas, time travel, whatever, but it must be determinable. And once it is determinable, infallibly so, then well, you obviously don't have a choice in the matter, or do you?

So, how could he determine the future if the future were not already....determined? Magic? You've now dived head first into the illogical.

striktlymi:
Now the above is what ooman is stressing but the truth is that the Father has the ability of doing the above but decided not to. The only 'fault' the Father has is that he knows the child would damage the TV but decided not to interfere and allow it happen. If the dad had interfered it would mean impeding on the right of the child to make his own decision.

No, the father would be impeding/interfering with the child's decision, not his ability to make the decision, or his free will. Free will concerns the ability to make a decision, not the actual act of carrying it through.

striktlymi:




Why do you keep doing this to yourself? [size=14pt]How does foreknowledge translate to predestination? How much do I need to repeat myself before it sinks? Anyways, I will do almost anything for you boss...

Having foreknowledge that something will happen is different from helping someone to make a decision. Predestination presupposes a lack of choice. It implies that the action of man is really not his but those of some supernatural being who ultimately decides the outcome of every action.

For the theory of predestination to work, we must demonstrate that at the minimum, two factors must come in to play: 1) Perfect knowledge (foreknowledge inclusive); 2) The actions of man is influenced in some way. Both these factors MUST be in play for predestination to work.

Omniscient includes the first factor but not the second i.e. omniscient implies that a being has perfect knowledge of what has happened, what is happening and what will happen. Hence, foreknowledge is the only relevant factor in predestination but you erroneously concluded that the foreknowledge of an omnipotent being is predestination.
[/size]


Foreknowledge does not interfere with a man's actions. This I have demonstrated before.

=========================================================================

The ish of Judas has been thrashed already!

The highlighted showcases the dubious apologetics that christians have to do to defend their God.

Omnipotence means that the omnipotent being can not be wrong in knowledge as it knows everything present to future. The knowledge of an omnipotent being is binding because it can never be wrong. God being omnipotent means that his foreknowledge of tommorow can not be wrong. Such foreknowledge is binding, hence predestination.


You say that the actions of man must be influenced before predestination can occur. Where did you get that rule from? Your azz? You fail to see that an omnipotents knowledge alone should be binding on human action. If God knows that Sammar will die tommorow. Wont Sammar die? Was it Sammar's decision to die?

achina boy:
convince me please

god cannot be proven to exist.

Logicboy03:




Abeg shift commot.......dont derail this thread. I'm enjoying seeing Striklymi contradict himself and fumble

You wish!

Logicboy03: See as Stryklimi dey run from thread ooo!

Yes na I sabi run ke...ask ooman!

Logicboy03:
Why are you avoiding my comment na?

Avoid your comment ke? For ya mind!

PalmTree:

If you actually went through the thread, either you are dumb or not, you won't ask this question.
Ok, since you were only reacting to the OP, I'll rest my case...but its still necessary for you to go through the thread so you don't end up asking questions that have been answered. Ciao

I dis not read the thread through. It's probably a rehashing of arguments I've seen dealt with and have myself dealt with intensively. So, I was a little too bored to read through the whole thread. I'm only curious about both questions and I don't believe that they've been answered already or else this thread would not have gotten this far.

Ihedinobi:

I dis not read the thread through. It's probably a rehashing of arguments I've seen dealt with and have myself dealt with intensively. So, I was a little too bored to read through the whole thread. I'm only curious about both questions and I don't believe that they've been answered already or else this thread would not have gotten this far.

I dont know if it is just me or that you have become so irritating with your dubious arguments.

What sense would your failed questions add to the op or thread? Abeg

PalmTree: in fact even as a xtain I sometimes ask myself
such questions as the "eden issue"

@ striklymi, I was referring to myself with the above and not you.

I know! Just sharing my own experience

PalmTree:
Now, back to the issue, you mean that God does not design the way a man's life churns out but He knows how it will churn out?

The above is an accurate representation of my position!

PalmTree:
Please is there another being out there apart from God that creates the design?

I don't believe that there is any being who pre-determine our actions.

PalmTree:
Or are you saying God gave man the ability to design for himself while He 'God' is already aware of the outcome? Please clarify.

If by the bold you mean an ability to make a road-map of our life before we perform any action, then the answer is NO; but on the contrary if you mean that every man determines his or her actions without the influence of some being on our ability to determine our actions then the answer is YES!

Yes, my stance is that God is aware of our actions before we do them!

Striky, how would you respond to this - Isaiah 41v4- Who has done such mighty deeds, directing the affairs of the human race as each new generation marches by? it is I the lord, the first and last. I alone am he NLT.

Now tell me, how does this allow for freewill.

Man is simply living and acting according to god's foreknowledge and direction. Our freewill is never real. God defrauded us of that when he started peeping into the future and directing our actions to march his foreknowledge according to the bible.

Logicboy03:



I dont know if it is just me or that you have become so irritating with your dubious arguments.

What sense would your failed questions add to the op or thread? Abeg

Lol. What arguments?

Answer them, if you can, and find out how they will add to the discussion.

Ihedinobi:

I dis not read the thread through. It's probably a rehashing of arguments I've seen dealt with and have myself dealt with intensively. So, I was a little too bored to read through the whole thread. I'm only curious about both questions and I don't believe that they've been answered already or else this thread would not have gotten this far.

you really think that you tackled this matter in davidylan's thread? then you are deceiving yourself. You only pat it on the back.

the argument remains valid. God cannot infallibly know what will happen and freewill still valid.

the argument is so logical that I pity you all as you debase yourself and try to break a rock with an egg.

Good afternoon wiegraf,

wiegraf: Striktly!!!

Good afternoon. Not read through the thread actually... Anyways, ignoring other issues

No P!

wiegraf:
This is false, in that it is not a core requirement, at all.

Are you saying that when something is not a 'core requirement' then it becomes false? Now let's put under the 'knife' what you consider to be the core requirement(s)...

wiegraf:
He doesn't need to make any choices for you, what he must be able to do is DETERMINE the future. Via formulas, time travel, whatever, but it must be determinable. And once it is determinable, infallibly so, then well, you obviously don't have a choice in the matter, or do you?

Well wieg, you still arrived at the same conclusion you tagged 'not a core requirement'...and that is not making your own decisions as regards choices. When someone gives you no option that your response is already determined by the individual then it suffices to say that the individual makes your decisions for you.

Now, the truth is that God does not determine our future...having knowledge of the future is not the same as determining ones future.

wiegraf:
So, how could he determine the future if the future were not already....determined? Magic? You've now dived head first into the illogical.

You can only accuse me of the bold if you can demonstrate that I hold the view that our futures are determined by a supreme being. My argument is that God does not determine our future...this is done by us through our actions.

wiegraf:
No, the father would be impeding/interfering with the child's decision, not his ability to make the decision, or his free will. Free will concerns the ability to make a decision, not the actual act of carrying it through.

It's just an example I expect everyone to fill in the gaps...

ooman:
you really think that you tackled this matter in davidylan's thread? then you are deceiving yourself. You only pat it on the back.

the argument remains valid. God cannot infallibly know what will happen and freewill still valid.

the argument is so logical that I pity you all as you debase yourself and try to break a rock with an egg.

Lol. Who said anything about davidylan's thread? You!

Anyway, just answer the questions and let's see just how valid this argument of yours really is.

Ihedinobi:

Lol. Who said anything about davidylan's thread? You!

Anyway, just answer the questions and let's see just how valid this argument of yours really is.

what exactly are your questions? dont ask the obviously dumb ones you asked before.

ooman:

what exactly are your questions? dont ask the obviously dumb ones you asked before.

Are you calling them dumb in order to avoid dealinv with them? What makes them dumb? Answer them, if you can and let's see if your arguments survive.

ooman:

what exactly are your questions? dont ask the obviously dumb ones you asked before.

Are you calling them dumb in order to avoid dealing with them? What makes them dumb? Answer them, if you can and let's see if your arguments survive.

Ihedinobi:

Are you calling them dumb in order to avoid dealing with them? What makes them dumb? Answer them, if you can and let's see if your arguments survive.

you simply want me to repeat the OP for you. that is dumb

why dont you take an intellectual journey down to the first page and read for yourself

CAN YOU COLONIZED PEOPLE PLEASE STOP TARNISHING THE IMAGE OF THE CREATOR BASED ON THE GARBAGE YOU READ IN THE JEWISH BIBLE AND THE KORAN, OR WHATEVER OTHER IMPORTED CRAPSTICKS THAT HAS TURNED YOUR HEADS?


Don't blame GOD for your dilemma. Blame your own STUPIDITY, THOUGHTLESSNESS, AND GULLIBILITY, in ACCEPTING AT FACE VALUE the accounts of these IMPORTED FAITHS regarding what 'God' supposedly did and didn't do, said and didn't say.

Did your ancestors not believe in God?

OF COURSE THEY DID.

Did they invent stories about God supposedly appearing to them, sending ''his son'', and his ''prophets'', 'Garden of Eden'. 'Adam and Eve temptation' 'hellfire' and all such GARBAGE?

NO!

Who taught you those things that ''GOD'' supposedly did?

FOREIGNERS FROM THOUSANDS OF MILES AWAY.

Their stories have NOTHING to do with the African experience and conceptualization of GOD.

As far as OUR ancestors were concerned, GOD is ALOOF from human affairs.

He is FAR TOO MIGHTY to be involved directly in human affairs.

Hence, the importance of ancestors, guardian spirits, deities (powerful spirits), who play the role of INTERMEDIARIES between us and God.

According to AFRICAN RELIGION, Human life is just a brief journey. After our journey, each of us RETURNS to the realms of spirits, OUR TRUE HOME from where we came. No conditions. No need to convert to any faith. No need to abide by any creed. WE ALL TRANSIT TO OUR TRUE HOME UPON PASSING, JUST AS NATURALLY AS WE TRANSITED HERE AT BIRTH WITH NO PRE-CONDITIONS.. Death is only a TRANSITION BACK to our state of spirit BLISS. WE LIVE FOREVER.

FINISH!

No 'ten commandments', No 'Jesus'. No 'Mary'. No 'Elijah'. No ''chosen people''. No Adam. No Eve and Snake, No 'Miracles'. No STORIES. You cannot have a story about GOD. Any story that claims to be about God or relating to God, is 100000% FALSE.

Whoever the Jews claim to have encountered in their book - whoever he is or was - is NOT God the Creator. Maybe he was their tribal god or even some alien entity. BUT IT WAS NOT GOD.

How can you say that God has a set of ''chosen people'', feels 'jealousy', demands worship? Orders ra.pe and mass murder? All claims by foreign books of indeterminate origin. WHY should you believe them?

WHY?

If God did not appear to OUR ANCESTORS, HE DID NOT APPEAR TO ANYONE ELSE'S ANCESTORS EITHER, and ANYONE who asks you to believe he did is LYING TO YOU AND MANIPULATING YOU TO ELEVATE HIS OWN HERITAGE, HISTORY AND CULTURE OVER YOURS.

SIMPLE, STRAIGHTFORWARD, NO DEBATE. NO ARGUMENT.

So the SOLUTION to your dilemma is VERY SIMPLE.

Instead of coming here to INSULT the Creator due to the contradictions of your foreign imported beliefs -

Return to the way your ANCESTORS - the world's first religious people - whom you've totally abandoned and scorn - RETURN TO THEIR CONCEPTUALIZATION OF GOD. REVITALISE IT. MODERNISE IT. AND EMBRACE IT.

AND YOUR DILEMMA WILL END INSTANTLY.

ooman:

you simply want me to repeat the OP for you. that is dumb

why dont you take an intellectual journey down to the first page and read for yourself

You're seriously telling me that you need to repeat the whole post to answer those two questions? Incredible!

Why don't you just say that you are incapable of answering my questions? I'll understand.