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Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? - Health (3) - Nairaland

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Re: Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? by jonesofunne: 3:07pm On May 01, 2013
For over two decades, nigerian universities have been churning out holders of graduate and post-graduate degrees in health management/administration. Doctors aspiring to head health institutions in Nigeria and in the diaspora are availing themselves the opportunity. Many of them were my classmates during our Masters degree programme in Uniben and others are also pursuing doctorate degrees in the same field. The Minister's arguement is shallow and untenable and he knows it. Nigeria is part of the global world.

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Re: Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? by Nobody: 3:18pm On May 01, 2013
eejo: Doctors monopoly is responsible for the fall in the health care system the minister lack knowledge to say all other professional are supportive health is like a football team a striker is not important than the goalkepper until Doctors realise this Nigerians will continue to suffer poor health system
so let administrators head all the sectors; universities ,polytechnics, colleges, courts ,power, nnpc ,military, police, schools .If doctors are the cause of failure in health sectors tell me the causes of failure in education ,security, bank , economy ,judiciary, road, pharmaceutical industry, manufacturing etc. the very moment non-doctors are heading hospitals will be the beginning of crisis in health sectors. my own suggestion is doctors with good administrative skills should only head hospitals.

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Re: Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? by Nobody: 3:21pm On May 01, 2013
jonesofunne: For over two decades, nigerian universities have been churning out holders of graduate and post-graduate degrees in health management/administration. Doctors aspiring to head health institutions in Nigeria and in the diaspora are availing themselves the opportunity. Many of them were my classmates during our Masters degree programme in Uniben and others are also pursuing doctorate degrees in the same field. The Minister's arguement is shallow and untenable and he knows it. Nigeria is part of the global world.

so administrators should head universities and polytechnics. i laugh.

1 Like

Re: Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? by kenlash1(m): 3:23pm On May 01, 2013
Pls we shld recognise d role of a cmd before commenting? D role of a cmd is not to attend to patient but to give a wholistic management of d hospital, its NT an exclusive ryt of one profession since d health sector is a multi facetted sector ,
Re: Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? by Nobody: 3:25pm On May 01, 2013
Olanight:
No mind d fool jare....its pathetic dat most pple commentin here ve neva been 2 a teaching hospt b4
may God continue to increase u from wisdom to higher wisdom...most of dem here are just so ignorant of the medical profession
Re: Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? by Nobody: 3:25pm On May 01, 2013
i suggest we say our own profession whl commentn on this thread....dt wl hlp us knw if u r truely "for" or "against", and not a pure expression of ill-feelngs towards drs or non drs,

Its a gud topic requirin meaningful discussion, n not an avenue fr pourin agrievances towards one anoda..

gbam!!!!
Re: Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? by Nobody: 3:26pm On May 01, 2013
takeprofit:

What is a medical doctor doing as the governor of a state or in the senate. politics and government should be left for Political Scientists.

so only political scientists should become politicians. u amaze me.
Re: Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? by Nobody: 3:29pm On May 01, 2013
doctors haters. for your info doctors head the following international organizations; unicef, who and world bank.

1 Like

Re: Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? by Nobody: 3:35pm On May 01, 2013
Adebowale352: Medicine is under the Health sector...others include dentistry,pharmacy,optometry,nursing,medical lab science....if medicine is now dominating others makes it wrong...the position should be shared equally because Med.docs can't even work independent of other medical professions
I will pardon ur ignorance...Medicine and Dentistry goes togeda--Nigerian Medical and Dental Council

1 Like

Re: Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? by kenlash1(m): 3:44pm On May 01, 2013
Laalamed:
so administrators should head universities and polytechnics. i laugh.
for example if A university has BN headed by engineering professors for A long time nd now a biochemistry professor comes up to say I want to head cos its My right as well (cos he is qualified) is now a bad TN? Mind you doctors don't own d hospitals, its d ryt of every health practitioner with necessary qualification nd yrs of experience
Re: Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? by Ochek: 3:58pm On May 01, 2013
centje: so you're trying to say that someone with bachelor of science in nursing knows what it takes to manage a diabetic patient or to do appendicectomy?

Doctors are insisting that this administrative office in health institutions is patient oriented. And only doctors can give a holistic approach to bring about that patient oriented care.

So the others are achieving dog orientened care abi? Seriously SMH

2 Likes

Re: Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? by Ochek: 4:03pm On May 01, 2013
kenlash1: Pls we shld recognise d role of a cmd before commenting? D role of a cmd is not to attend to patient but to give a wholistic management of d hospital, its NT an exclusive ryt of one profession since d health sector is a multi facetted sector ,

Correct! What re the obligations of the CMD? This should guide our comments.
Re: Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? by thorpido(m): 4:19pm On May 01, 2013
Baby mama:

There are many hospital administrators at various levels that are not doctors
But the Chief medical directors invariably must be doctors
That should be a no brainer
If u are speaking of a clinical head,there is no doubt that it should be headed by a medical doctor.However we are talking about the administration of the hospital and it shouldn't be the exclusive right of a medical doctor.The administrative head does not have to be the one doing surgeries or managing diabetes.He just has to be the one seeing to the day to day running of the hospital.

3 Likes

Re: Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? by Ochek: 4:24pm On May 01, 2013
Laalamed:
that is not true. doctors are decision makers in hospitals. nurses follow doctors instructions. developed countries are more comfortable to hire foreign nurses than doctors. besides demand for nursing services is increasing because of increase in aging populations.

So short sighted

2 Likes

Re: Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? by hairyman(m): 4:38pm On May 01, 2013
Let me make a few clarifications, here in Nigeria the degree a 'doctor' leaves school with is bacheelor of medicine bachelor of science, did you hear a doctor in that? The title 'doctor' come of posterity, it was a title that came to be ages ago and not a qualification, at least in our climes. In more developed countries however, the degrees are different MD. However other health professionals also have degrees like that such as DPT doctor of physiotherapy, Pharm D doctor of pharmacy. So over there all these are doctors. Having said that, I have read through certain arguments here about doctors knowing all about health care, going through all aspects in their training and all, that without any shadow of doubt is untrue and to the extent in which it is true is absolutely wrong. A doctor, as well as any other health professional, goes through every aspect of other health care professions during training, this does not in any way make them professionals in those fields. We have this misconception because in this country, a doctor freely overstep their boundaries, because of the ignorance of the people and our poor health and judiciary system. Let Nigerians learn to sue and you will see a great difference in the practice of medicine.
Health mannagement is by no means, solely the terrain of doctors. Nowhere in the world is MBBS or MD a prerequisite for that position except ofcourse in Nigeria (it is also only in Nigeria that a doctor employed by a state government will go on strike asking for the pay received by a federal worker when he/she is free at any time to resign a state appointment and seek a federal appointment if he likes the pay better). Many things are wrong in this nation and this is certainly one of them. Everyone in the health system has his role to play, it ends there. Everyone is a professional, independent and authoritative in his field. There is and should be no issue of superiority or inferiority. I support all other health professionals who are overcoming their colonial imposed inferiority and rising to challange this oddity perculiar to our perculiar country. There is a reason why the term medical team is used to refer to all professionals coming together to work, not a doctor's team. The issue of greater knowledge as a result of residency is clearly offset by post graduate studies in other fields, physiotherapy anyway has launched their residency program.
By no means should the position of hospital management be solely reserved for physicians.

9 Likes

Re: Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? by docxdee(m): 4:53pm On May 01, 2013
Dis iz plain rubbish..itz an obvious plot by all dz nurses,lab tecnicians,pharmacistz,etc to take over control..every health team haz a physician az itz head n others simply make up d body..jez imagine one dirty lab technician az a cmd or medical director of a hospital....very weird n sooo improper

2 Likes

Re: Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? by laseni: 5:10pm On May 01, 2013
A medical doctor by training,undergoes comprehensive training in ALL the fields of medicine and is thus well grounded to take adequate care of patients.For anybody to be a good hospital administrator,you must be well grounded in every area of medical care,because the objective in hospital administration is not about making money;but using the often limited resources to achieve optimal care for your client.This you would able to do if you have a complete knowledge of what your patients would require.

1 Like

Re: Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? by ugochi86: 5:11pm On May 01, 2013
I see this as a good avenue for all non-doctors in hospitals to vent.its understandably frustrating for them beause most of them had d aspiration of becoming doctors but jamb and probably some other factors stood in their way.they should leave them(doctors) alone.they shsould have burnt the midnight candle when they still had d chance but it's never too late to purchase jamb form as someone earlier suggested.

2 Likes

Re: Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? by agabaI23(m): 5:12pm On May 01, 2013
centje: You know hospital is all about patient's care. Every other thing is secondary. Among the health professionals only doctors pass through all the health departments in the course of training
Are you for real?
Re: Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? by Nobody: 5:13pm On May 01, 2013
someday, a clerk/ secretary will want to be the chief justice of naija. Abeg leave CMD position for likita.
Re: Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? by Ochek: 5:15pm On May 01, 2013
ugochi86: I see this as a good avenue for all non-doctors in hospitals to vent.its understandably frustrating for them beause most of them had d aspiration of becoming doctors but jamb and probably some other factors stood in their way.they should leave them(doctors) alone.they shsould have burnt the midnight candle when they still had d chance but it's never too late to purchase jamb form as someone earlier suggested.

Sorry for you! What re the basic requirements into Med and surg, nursing, pharm, med lab? Is any diff. Hmmmmm.. The last i checked, no diff. Yes! Some got lucky to study med, others nursing and so on. Your statement is so childish and lack any creative and constructive arguement.

5 Likes

Re: Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? by Ochek: 5:20pm On May 01, 2013
laseni: A medical doctor by training,undergoes comprehensive training in ALL the fields of medicine and is thus well grounded to take adequate care of patients.For anybody to be a good hospital administrator,you must be well grounded in every area of medical care,because the objective in hospital administration is not about making money;but using the often limited resources to achieve optimal care for your client.This you would able to do if you have a complete knowledge of what your patients would require.

Really? I don't remember having any management studies or proper sociology courses in the med sch.

About the money thing, you know socrates was a right man but yo ve go ask all the dead in them graves why the CMD asked for that initial deposite before treatment which never came in good time till them gave up the ghost.
Again, i ask, what re the obligations of the CMD?
Re: Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? by iwanchop(m): 5:39pm On May 01, 2013
[quote author=Olanight][/quote]

Why were you selective in your post?Why lay emphasis on nurses who spent 3 years to get their diplomaso,what about nurses with degrees,pharmacists etc?
Do you mean you would also resign if a pharmacist with say 15 years experience was made the CMD ?

2 Likes

Re: Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? by ugochi86: 5:48pm On May 01, 2013
@ochek. Same courses different cut off marks.don't know what luck u re talking about.leave the doctors alone and focus on making d best out of what u studied.
Re: Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? by Tedpgrass: 5:54pm On May 01, 2013
Heading a health organization

We need to define..
1) the organization.... a small hospital vs govt parastatal
2) the health welfare reform in place.... ??socialist as in NHS or capitalist as obtains in the US.
3) Level of development.... type of non-medical healthcare manager (attending different CPD courses) operational in the NHS which has in place, robust rules and guidance will differ greatly from the type needed or available in the backwaters of Jigawa state.


Looking concisely at the syllabus and training schedule of most medical trainees in Nigeria, the MBBS, BDS have remained the most robust, in relation to the requirements of running a health organization. You can then argue these Nigerian-trained professionals are better placed to be in the steering capacity.

Though all medical professionals work as a team, the onus still lies with the doctor at the end of the day. Whether palatable or not, the buck stops with the MBBS/BDS.



Hence, I agree with the argument below:

laseni: A medical doctor by training,undergoes comprehensive training in ALL the fields of medicine and is thus well grounded to take adequate care of patients.For anybody to be a good hospital administrator,you must be well grounded in every area of medical care,because the objective in hospital administration is not about making money;but using the often limited resources to achieve optimal care for your client.This you would able to do if you have a complete knowledge of what your patients would require.



It's well documented that when non-medical try to rule the roost, they fail miserably, putting patient safety and health at huge risk. Examples abound in the NHS/ UK.
France +Germany who have largely doctors heading their organizations have better indices in relation to patient experience and important stats like cancer cure and public health systems in place, which ensure a fairly healthy general population.

The US may boast of state of the art treatments and medical care. But there's such a variation in health care indices. This is largely due to a capitalist (insurance)
based healthcare system which focuses on profit rather than general public health. This was reiterated by a documentary, I watched awhile ago, when in midwest USA, people drove for 6hrs to queue as early as 3:00am for free opthalmology care provided for, by a charity. That doesn't happen in the NHS yet. Things may well change due to new initiatives being introduced.


.

1 Like

Re: Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? by Nobody: 6:18pm On May 01, 2013
hairyman: Let me make a few clarifications, here in Nigeria the degree a 'doctor' leaves school with is bacheelor of medicine bachelor of science, did you hear a doctor in that? The title 'doctor' come of posterity, it was a title that came to be ages ago and not a qualification, at least in our climes. In more developed countries however, the degrees are different MD. However other health professionals also have degrees like that such as DPT doctor of physiotherapy, Pharm D doctor of pharmacy. So over there all these are doctors. Having said that, I have read through certain arguments here about doctors knowing all about health care, going through all aspects in their training and all, that without any shadow of doubt is untrue and to the extent in which it is true is absolutely wrong. A doctor, as well as any other health professional, goes through every aspect of other health care professions during training, this does not in any way make them professionals in those fields. We have this misconception because in this country, a doctor freely overstep their boundaries, because of the ignorance of the people and our poor health and judiciary system. Let Nigerians learn to sue and you will see a great difference in the practice of medicine.
Health mannagement is by no means, solely the terrain of doctors. Nowhere in the world is MBBS or MD a prerequisite for that position except ofcourse in Nigeria (it is also only in Nigeria that a doctor employed by a state government will go on strike asking for the pay received by a federal worker when he/she is free at any time to resign a state appointment and seek a federal appointment if he likes the pay better). Many things are wrong in this nation and this is certainly one of them. Everyone in the health system has his role to play, it ends there. Everyone is a professional, independent and authoritative in his field. There is and should be no issue of superiority or inferiority. I support all other health professionals who are overcoming their colonial imposed inferiority and rising to challange this oddity perculiar to our perculiar country. There is a reason why the term medical team is used to refer to all professionals coming together to work, not a doctor's team. The issue of greater knowledge as a result of residency is clearly offset by post graduate studies in other fields, physiotherapy anyway has launched their residency program.
By no means should the position of hospital management be solely reserved for physicians.


Re: Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? by cahnellven: 6:47pm On May 01, 2013
I dnt think any sort of arguement should emanate 4rm dis issue . 4 a start ,it is very true that medicine is the only profesion that completes all the basic medical courses(anatomy,physiology,medical biochemistry),others simply do part of it n not d full course. Now on the issue of administration,it shud be run by the most qualified medical personell,bt as we all knw,administration entails control which makes the position kinda hard to recommend 4 anyone aside a doctor cos hospital politics is different frm wat we have else where. An ideal medical team comprises of a doctor,a pharmacist,nurse,med lab scientist,anatomist,physiotherapist,and a physiologist with each controlling basic autonomy in its own field ,bt as we knw it,a doctor z d natural head of a medical team . So my view is this . . .each proffesion should head its department,with the doctor being and remaing d CMD
a Nurse or a pharmacist has never controlled john hopkins hospital

1 Like

Re: Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? by Buchianom(m): 7:10pm On May 01, 2013
docxdee: Dis iz plain rubbish..itz an obvious plot by all dz nurses,lab tecnicians,pharmacistz,etc to take over control..every health team haz a physician az itz head n others simply make up d body..jez imagine one dirty lab technician az a cmd or medical director of a hospital....very weird n sooo improper

When nxt U open ur mouth to talk, try $ reason befor U type ds kind of trash. Just to help ur ignorance; dia is nthin lyk 'lab technician';its Med. Lab. Sct.

Ur use of derogatory words to address fellow health professional shows hw bad U are as a physician (if U av started practising).

3 Likes

Re: Should Non-doctors Head health Institutions? by hairyman(m): 7:17pm On May 01, 2013
Tedpgrass:


Heading a health organization

We need to define..
1) the organization.... a small hospital vs govt parastatal
2) the health welfare reform in place.... ??socialist as in NHS or capitalist as obtains in the US.
3) Level of development.... type of non-medical healthcare manager (attending different CPD courses) operational in the NHS which has in place, robust rules and guidance will differ greatly from the type needed or available in the backwaters of Jigawa state.


Looking concisely at the syllabus and training schedule of most medical trainees in Nigeria, the MBBS, BDS have remained the most robust, in relation to the requirements of running a health organization. You can then argue these Nigerian-trained professionals are better placed to be in the steering capacity.

Though all medical professionals work as a team, the onus still lies with the doctor at the end of the day. Whether palatable or not, the buck stops with the MBBS/BDS.



Hence, I agree with the argument below:





It's well documented that when non-medical try to rule the roost, they fail miserably, putting patient safety and health at huge risk. Examples abound in the NHS/ UK.
France +Germany who have largely doctors heading their organizations have better indices in relation to patient experience and important stats like cancer cure and public health systems in place, which ensure a fairly healthy general population.

The US may boast of state of the art treatments and medical care. But there's such a variation in health care indices. This is largely due to a capitalist (insurance)
based healthcare system which focuses on profit rather than general public health. This was reiterated by a documentary, I watched awhile ago, when in midwest USA, people drove for 6hrs to queue as early as 3:00am for free opthalmology care provided for, by a charity. That doesn't happen in the NHS yet. Things may well change due to new initiatives being introduced.


.
More robust you say. I cannot disagree with you more. You may do well to scrutinize the syllables of allied medical courses, I am certain you will find it quite 'robust' and tedious too. CPDs are not also lacking, actually they abound. But for the life of me I cannot ascertain the real or implied connection between management and robust curriculum. You admitted that non-physicians have done well in hospital management in the US, well that means they can be effective. In these other countries you mentioned may I ask how well you are conversant with their health system, precisely is it a law that only physicians will attain the helm of hospital management? Well I doubt that very much. Do not quote documentaries, they are not acceptable sources.
You used the term non-medical. You must then not be referring to professionals connected with patient care. The people this argument concern, actually are very 'medical'
Cancer cure, its likes and whatever indicies support physician's superior skill in curing them has no bearing on these arguments for the simple reason that those are absolutely different from hospital management. There is no reason practically just doctors sit on hospital boards and certainly no reason why they shall solely have the duty of heading it.

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