Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! - Religion (3) - Nairaland
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| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Goshen360(m): 6:11pm On May 04, 2013 |
Ihedinobi: There are two laws...of Moses and of Christ. Both are also used by another names interchangeably. |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 7:10pm On May 04, 2013 |
Goshen360: The relationship is, God uses the types/shadow to talk into the future, the substance. And according to scriptures, when the substance is fulfilled, the shadows are done away with. The shadows remain ONLY UNTIL the substance come, not to be taken as or confused with the substance. I know what types and anti-types are, Goshen. I know what God does with them. I'm askinf how they relate to each other. I'm asking you to deacribe the type in terms of the antitype and vice versa. |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 7:35pm On May 04, 2013 |
Goshen360: So when the Scriptures say that Moses was a pattern of Christ or an illustration of Christ, it's your opinion that they can both be called the same thing? If something is an illustration of another, it is not the same as that other, no? It is merely some projection of that other, some expression of it. Thus, if Christ is a Law, Moses is not itself a law, Moses would be a description, an illustration of the real Law. Do you follow? |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Goshen360(m): 8:07pm On May 04, 2013 |
Ihedinobi: Types and substance are two different things. Both are not the same bro. Melchizedek was a type of Christ. Is he then = to Christ himself? The relationship again is further taken as the anti-type fulfills ONLY WHERE GOD USES THE TYPES TO TEACH HIS REDEMPTIVE PLANS. |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Goshen360(m): 8:08pm On May 04, 2013 |
Ihedinobi: Moses was a TYPE of Christ. So is Moses then Christ? Since God used Moses to save Israel from Egypt, you can as well say Moses is the saviour of the church in which Israel was a type of the church. Yes? |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 9:33pm On May 04, 2013 |
Goshen360: You are not paying attention, my brother. |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 10:04pm On May 04, 2013 |
Goshen360: You are not paying attention, my brother. |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by ayoku777(m): 10:24pm On May 04, 2013 |
@ Goshen and Ihedinobi Let me try and cut in between this debate, you're trying to understand the difference between the Law and Grace and how the connect. God used the law for two reasons: first, as schoolmaster and second as a foreshadowing Paul said in Gal 3v24 'Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster'. In other words like a daycare where parents put there kids pending the tim they will return from work and come back to collect them. The Law was not our home, we were just kept under it till when the work of redemption will be accomplished and we can be restored back to fellowship with God, the fellowship we lost in Adam. Just as when a parent returns from work to collect he's kid from a daycare and go home with him, that's what Christ did. Gal 3v25 'But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a school master'. Now our life is in faith in Christ and in fellowship with His Spirit. Secondly, the Law foreshadowed what Christ was coming to accomplished, nothing accomplished under the law was the reality, the reality was accomplished in Christ. That was why Christ said in John 6v32 'I say unto you, Moses gave you not the bread from heaven; but my father giveth you the true bread from heaven'. So the manna of Moses was a shadow manna that foreshadows Christ himself. Also, the writer of hebrews said the rest joshua gave the children of israel was not the real rest in Heb 4v8 'For if Jesus (Joshua) had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day'. So the rest of joshua foreshadows the real rest that Christ brought through faith in Him. This is the same for the other things like the lifted serpent of Moses, the sacrificial lamb, the passover feast etc, all this were not realities, they foreshadowed what Christ came too accomplish. |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 10:52pm On May 04, 2013 |
ayoku777: ...you're trying to understand the difference between the Law and Grace and how the connect... No, we're not. |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 1:22am On May 05, 2013 |
Goshen360: Galatians 2:18, somebody please help me quote from all the translations here: bible.cc/galatians/2-18.htmWhy do i get this notion that anytime Paul talks about Law what readily comes to your mind is the mosaic law? Until you come to the understanding that a law is a principle that always remains the same once the conditions and the requirements are met you will keep on confusing and contradicting yourself with Paul's letters. This thing is actually so simple yet you keep confusing yourself and others. There are two kinds of laws. 1.Natural laws. 2.Spiritual laws. Natural laws are law of gravity; law of cause and effect; law of temperature-water boiling at 100 degree Celsius and freezing at 0 degree Celsius, etc Spiritual laws : the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus(Which the mosaic law is embedded in because God said He will write them and tattoo them in our heart,Christ even came and expanded these laws(Mathew 5:17-43)(Romans 6:23,7 :25, 8:2); the law of sin and death which i believe the verse you quoted is talking about and which was nailed to the cross by Christ death and resurrection see also Romans 6:23,7:25,8:2);sowing and reaping(genesis 8:22, Gal 6:70);etc Paul brought tremendous insight on Faith which i believe is a law(Romans 3:27,28) just like every other known law. Once the conditions are met, it always works. When faith conditions are satisfied it automatically goes into effect. |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Goshen360(m): 8:37am On May 05, 2013 |
Bidam, You do err not knowing the scriptures. The WHOLE book of Galatians is about saved by Grace through faith (began in the Spirit) but continuing the Christian life in the flesh (by obeying the MOSAIC laws). That's the context! Before you proceed in this argument, please read again, the WHOLE book of Galatians, in New Living Translations, if possible. Thank you! |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Zikkyy(m): 10:45am On May 05, 2013 |
Ihedinobi: Goshen360: Ihedinobi: Ihedinobi is just playing 419 here  he is not so keen on taking a stand. Oga Ihedinobi, please come out and tell us what you mean by "the law" 2 Likes |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Zikkyy(m): 10:59am On May 05, 2013 |
Bidam: Anytime Paul talks about a law. he will always indicate the law he has in mind (atleast 98% of the time), so we cannot be wrong when we say Paul was referring to the mosaic law cos Paul already shown he was talking about the mosaic law. Bidam: what about the Law of the Federal Republic of Nigeria? is that one natural or spiritual law?  1 Like |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Zikkyy(m): 11:42am On May 05, 2013 |
Enigma: Having a proper understanding of the content of the mosaic law is not the same thing as implementing/subjecting oneself to the requirement of the mosaic law. when we say the mosaic law is no longer relevant, we don't have people like you in mind, you know the target audience na  Enigma: you self know what we are talking about here the problem is that our target audience will interpret your post above to read that Christians can still follow/apply the mosaic law as given  i really don't see the need for a Christian to be thinking mosaic when responding to the Christ law. i see it as a contradiction. |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Goshen360(m): 12:58pm On May 05, 2013 |
Infact, just reading Galatians again, faith + Grace and BALANCING WITH THE MOSAIC LAW IS OUTRIGHTLY FORBIDDEN UNDER THE NEW TESTAMENT. Both are like oil and water, they CANNOT MIX, THAT'S PRACTICING GRACE WITH JUDAISM. 1 Like |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by shdemidemi(m): 4:09pm On May 05, 2013 |
Gentile. ------ Jews -–—----------------------------------------- Sinner. ------- Sinner No law. -------- Law No work. --------- Work Prize. ---------- Wage Spirit. ---------- Flesh No boasting----------. Boasting Imputation. ---------- Imputation (Righteousness).---------- (Sin) 1 Like |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 7:12pm On May 05, 2013 |
Zikkyy: Please explain how I am playing 419 and avoiding taking a stand. |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Zikkyy(m): 7:44pm On May 05, 2013 |
Ihedinobi: Another attempt at question dodging just answer Goshe's question jor abi you dey fear to answer that question  2 Likes |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 8:26pm On May 05, 2013 |
@ayoku777 The issue is whether Jesus ever broke the Sabbath or whether He ever admitted to doing so. Let's take the last first. He never explicitly admitted to doing so. So we have to see whether indeed He implicitly did so. Now you hold that He did because a) He cited examples of people that you believe broke the Sabbath too and sort of identified with them b) He said "guiltless" after He had spoken of mercy. Actually, the two are one: that Jesus identified with people who, according to you, had also broken the Sabbath and the law in some other way and received mercy and therefore absolved of their guilt. Now, you believe that these people - David and the priests - had been guilty of breaking the law because a) Jesus used terms that suggested that He thought the same thing b) you know of instances where other people had done the "same" things they had done or things "comparable" to what they had done and been held guilty by the Law and punished. About (a), Jesus was speaking to people who insisted that He had broken the law. It makes sense that He should use language that should cause them to pause and think. He didn't need to believe that either David or the priests broke the law to use the phrase "profaned the Sabbath" or "not lawful for him", He only needed to force the authorities questioning Him to decide whether they were greater than the Law which had not considered the priests activities as profaning the Sabbath or David's eating the shewbread to stay alive violating the temple. About (b), the law of the Sabbath was that only that which was in keeping with, that is, not in violation of, the Rest of God was permitted on the Sabbath. Do you agree? Please read that commandment again before you answer. Now, was that man who was gathering sticks in Numbers ministering to the Lord's rest? Were the priests ministering to the Lord's rest? About violating the office of the priests, was Saul presumptuous in his actions in sacrificing before Samuel arrived? Was David presumptuous in requesting a meal from the priests for himself and his meal when they were famished and in flight from Saul? Finally, Who did the Scriptures say was actually doing the "works" that Jesus was doing? For Whom had Jesus's disciples exerted themselves so much to the point of needing to eat on the go? And were they, our Lord and His disciples, violating the Lord's rest by healing and destriyung the works of the enemy? These questions are only meant to encourage you to meditate a bit more on the matter. But it's ok if you wish to produce answers and argue for your claim that Jesus broke the Sabbath. But, do take a pause and be sure how you want to play this one. Edit: If the answers to this question show that the people Jesus identified with did not break the law, then our Lord neither broke the Sabbath nor admitted to doing so. |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 8:26pm On May 05, 2013 |
If you ask me what Law and give me options when I have consistently held that there is only one Law, what do you expect me to answer, Zikkyy? Choose which Law you prefer. As far as the Scriptures are concerned, there is only one Law and it is Christ. And I have not minced words about that in any discussion pertaining to this issue. |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 9:18pm On May 05, 2013 |
@ayoku777 I modified a double post two posts before this one to give my answer on the issue we were discussing. Please refer to it. |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by ayoku777(m): 1:20am On May 06, 2013 |
@ Ihedinobi Jesus wasn't afraid of the pharisees so He didn't need to twist the scriptures or say what He didn't believe just to make them agree with Him better. He used the word UNLAWFUL and PROFANE to describe what David and the priests did coz that was the right description. What David did was unlawful and what the preists do is profane but they are blameless according to Christ coz they were justified on the platform of a justification that transcends the Law they broke Read the passage very well, its so clear I don't even understand why this argument is stretching this far. Jesus didn't have to use words He didn't agree with to make the pharisees understand Him. We should try not to make the scriptures say what we want it to say coz what it said is too weird for us. We should ask for grace to comprehend it rather. Read that passage and see what I mean and Gid will give you understanding IJN |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Goshen360(m): 1:35am On May 06, 2013 |
Ihedinobi: If you ask me what Law and give me options when I have consistently held that there is only one Law, what do you expect me to answer, Zikkyy? Choose which Law you prefer. As far as the Scriptures are concerned, there is only one Law and it is Christ. And I have not minced words about that in any discussion pertaining to this issue. You know that is NOT true! Scripture consistently speak law of Moses and of Christ as VERY SEPARATE. You want scriptural verses? |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 7:23am On May 06, 2013 |
ayoku777: Jesus wasn't afraid of the pharisees so He didn't need to twist the scriptures or say what He didn't believe just to make them agree with Him better. He used the word UNLAWFUL and PROFANE to describe what David and the priests did coz that was the right description. What David did was unlawful and what the preists do is profane but they are blameless according to Christ coz they were justified on the platform of a justification that transcends the Law they broke. If they actually profaned the Sabbath and broke the law, how were they blameless? What was this platform you speak of and how did it transcend the Law? Did anything I said in any way suggest fear of the Jews on Jesus's part? I don't believe so. I was only talking about His peculiar manner of communication whenever He dealt with the Jews. Our Lord tended to always put His opponents in a catch-22 situation whenever they tried to accuse Him or entrap Him. He would ask them questions to which they could only answer in, say, two ways and any answer they chose would shoot down their case. This situation about the Law and the Sabbath was not different. He used their own words to show them their folly. What He did was essentially the same as asking them, "did the priests indeed profane the Sabbath while they served in the Temple? Of course, by your reasoning they did, but why were they guiltless for doing so?" His next words cemented this when He said that "in this place there is one greater than the Temple". That means that the Temple made the difference for the priests. They were serving in the Temple and therefore what they did did not count as profaning the Sabbath. If you like to put it this way, the Temple exempted them. And Jesus claimed that He was greater than the Temple and went on to say that He was Lord of the Sabbath. All that only means that the Law was not rightly appreciated by the Jews as I have said before. Jesus Himself said that they had not known the Scriptures nor understood Moses because if they had, they would not be accusing Him. Now, I frankly don't care whether you believe me or you don't. If you are one of His pressing on toward the mark of the on-high calling, eventually, you will come this way. All I intend to do is light the way by which I have passed. It wasn't even two years ago fully that I was myself attacking everything about the Law and those who sought to bring Christians back "under" it, but the Mercy of the Lord availed for me and I have been kept. The Lord has taught me and all I will do is give what I have been given. Our Lord was Himself that of which the seventh day spoke. I decided to read Hebrews again yesterday before replying you. You should probably do the same, my brother. Grace be with you. |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 7:24am On May 06, 2013 |
ayoku777: Jesus wasn't afraid of the pharisees so He didn't need to twist the scriptures or say what He didn't believe just to make them agree with Him better. He used the word UNLAWFUL and PROFANE to describe what David and the priests did coz that was the right description. What David did was unlawful and what the preists do is profane but they are blameless according to Christ coz they were justified on the platform of a justification that transcends the Law they broke. If they actually profaned the Sabbath and broke the law, how were they blameless? What was this platform you speak of and how did it transcend the Law? Did anything I said in any way suggest fear of the Jews on Jesus's part? I don't believe so. I was only talking about His peculiar manner of communication whenever He dealt with the Jews. Our Lord tended to always put His opponents in a catch-22 situation whenever they tried to accuse Him or entrap Him. He would ask them questions to which they could only answer in, say, two ways and any answer they chose would shoot down their case. This situation about the Law and the Sabbath was not different. He used their own words to show them their folly. What He did was essentially the same as asking them, "did the priests indeed profane the Sabbath while they served in the Temple? Of course, by your reasoning they did, but why were they guiltless for doing so?" His next words cemented this when He said that "in this place there is one greater than the Temple". That means that the Temple made the difference for the priests. They were serving in the Temple and therefore what they did did not count as profaning the Sabbath. If you like to put it this way, the Temple exempted them. And Jesus claimed that He was greater than the Temple and went on to say that He was Lord of the Sabbath. All that only means that the Law was not rightly appreciated by the Jews as I have said before. Jesus Himself said that they had not known the Scriptures nor understood Moses because if they had, they would not be accusing Him. Now, I frankly don't care whether you believe me or you don't. If you are one of His pressing on toward the mark of the on-high calling, eventually, you will come this way. All I intend to do is light the way by which I have passed. It wasn't even two years ago fully that I was myself attacking everything about the Law and those who sought to bring Christians back "under" it, but the Mercy of the Lord availed for me and I have been kept. The Lord has taught me and all I will do is give what I have been given. Our Lord was Himself that of which the seventh day spoke. I decided to read Hebrews again yesterday before replying you. You should probably do the same, my brother. Grace be with you. 1 Like |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 7:27am On May 06, 2013 |
Goshen360: Please proceed. |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 11:13am On May 06, 2013 |
Goshen360: Bidam,My understanding of the book of Galatians is that there were recent Jewish converts who had an incorrect or incomplete view of faith/salvation. This is shown in several places including; 2:3-5; 3:1-4; 5:2-11 and 6:12-15. These people were telling new Galatians converts that you had to do certain things for salvation, other than trust in God through Jesus. They were of the same faction mentioned in Acts 15. Note however, that these men also had an incorrect idea on what Paul was in fact teaching, accusing him of teaching against the Torah. If ever Paul had the opportunity to show that we no longer had to follow the Torah, this was it -- However, Paul denied the charge that he taught against Torah in the strongest way possible, by taking a Nazarite vow (Acts 21:21-26). This involved him performing sacrifices and offerings (Numbers 6:1-21). Paul's message to the Galatians is to remind them of the correct equation: Torah-based faith + Nothing Else = Salvation This is the same message Moses gave his people in his day. Paul does discuss "lifestyle" at the end of this letter. In Galatians 5:16-22, Paul makes a comparison between "walking in the spirit" and "walking in the flesh." He defines those who walk in flesh in verses 19-21 (adulterers, fornicators, sorcerers, etc.) What do those all have in common? They are all transgressions of the Torah. They are violators of the "negative commandments" of the Torah. Because modern interpretation of Scripture is founded on a Greek/western approach and not a Hebrew one, verse after verse in the "New Testament" are stripped from the original context in which the Torah-observant authors wrote them. In place of this, an anti-Torah "spin" has been placed on the Word of the God of Israel. 1 Like |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 11:21am On May 06, 2013 |
Zikkyy:The whole bible is NOT a logical book, it is a spiritual book. |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Alwaystrue(f): 11:55am On May 06, 2013 |
Bidam: Because modern interpretation of Scripture is founded on a Greek/western approach and not a Hebrew one, verse after verse in the "New Testament" are stripped from the original context in which the Torah-observant authors wrote them. In place of this, an anti-Torah "spin" has been placed on the Word of the God of Israel.I will be quite careful about putting such a 'spin' on that. I believe no matter how anti law the biblical texts may be written, the spirit will always bear witness to the truth which I trust you believe. Did you notice the bible showed the works of the flesh and the fruits of the spirit, not the works of the spirit? Meaning once the Christian exhibits those fruits, automatically good works are manifest hence fulfilling the righteousness of the law as it should. Christ is the full expression of the law (which was a shadow) so anyone saying the law is done away with can as well claim to have nothing to do with Christ. @Ihedinobi, Enigma, Bidam, you guys make lot of sense. Thanks for the grace of Jesus Christ so that we can have help to uphold God's law in truth. @Ihedinobi, I am glad you understand the sabath too. That had always been my confusion of the law of God and those words of Christ, and after I got the understanding it was amazing. Jesus indeed is Lord of the Sabbath. |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 12:45pm On May 06, 2013 |
Alwaystrue: @Ihedinobi, Enigma, Bidam, you guys make lot of sense. Thanks for the grace of Jesus Christ so that we can have help to uphold God's law in truth. The Spirit is one, sister dear @bolded: we give thanks indeed. But for His Grace, we would be condemned |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by shdemidemi(m): 12:50pm On May 06, 2013 |
This issue of the law of Moses is a deviation from Christianity. According to Romans 3, the Jews asked Paul the advantage of being Jew and an elected race by God through the promise made to Abraham. Romans 3:1-2 3 1 What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Paul replied in the next verse saying,2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. (New International Version) 2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God. (Easy-to-Read Version) 2 Yes, the Jews have many benefits. The most important one is this: God trusted the Jews with his teachings. It must be known that a non-Jew (with exceptions) was not part of the promise given to Abraham but through thesame promise,God said all the families of the earth would be blessed Gen 12:3. At the time Christ came, he was under this law of Moses until it was fulfilled, which gave room for suitable covenant that will include the Gentiles. Christ's disciples did not understand, neither could they comprehend,this was something different from all they had known since they were born. Christ showed up with his disciples in Acts 1, He told them to wait for a new promise from God. All the disciples were concerned about, was the kingdom of Israel but Christ gave them a mandate, which was to extend the teaching to every part of the earth. Even after what Christ said, the gospel was only preached to Jews as recorded in Acts 11:19 'Now those who were scattered after the persecution that arose over Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to no one but the Jews only.' Peter had to be shown through a vision that God had started a new thing which is totally against the Mosaic law. Under this new gospel, there is no partiality cos the criteria to be righteous is through belief and not by any law written or unwritten. Paul said 'I am not ashamed of the gospel for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believe, for the Jews first and also for the Greeks'. Every scripture is inspired of God but not everything is written to you. We must understand the Bible is a progressive revelation. |
| Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Alwaystrue(f): 1:04pm On May 06, 2013 |
shdemidemi: Under this new gospel, there is no partiality cos the criteria to be righteous is through belief and not by any law written or unwritten. Paul said 'I am not ashamed of the gospel for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believe, for the Jews first and also for the Greeks'. Romans 2:28-29 28 For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision 29 No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God's Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people. 1 Like |
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