@Huxley

I will address the issues you and the articles you posted raised.

1. The National Institute of Health is a well respected body and has a lot of eminent scientists. An article that refers to them as a source remains an opinion except if the scientific paper on which the article is based is cited. The scientific paper can then be examined with several other papers in a similar area and a reasonable inference can be made. Please site the original scientific papers on which the articles are based. Only then will it be possible for the methods, the results and the conclusion of the paper subjected to analysis. If you have the original scientific papers, cite them.

2. God is not responsible for spontaneous miscariages. There are biological and spiritual reasons why they do occure. Even the article you posted delineated some of the biological reasons why sponteneous miscarriages do happen. The developmental process of every cell has checks and balances. These checks are programed into the molecular clock of such a cell to ensure that the cell or cells survive and perform their alloted tasks. If a cell or cells suffer chromosomal abnormalities or extensive DNA damage, the check process marks those cells for destruction.

3.The occasional occurrence of spontenous miscarriage should not be used to justify abortion or man mediated miscarriages. Just like the observation that humans die naturally is not an alibi for murder.

m_nwankwo:

@Huxley

I will address the issues you and the articles you posted raised.

1. The National Institute of Health is a well respected body and has a lot of eminent scientists. An article that refers to them as a source remains an opinion except if the scientific paper on which the article is based is cited. The scientific paper can then be examined with several other papers in a similar area and a reasonable inference can be made. Please site the original scientific papers on which the articles are based. Only then will it be possible for the methods, the results and the conclusion of the paper subjected to analysis. If you have the original scientific papers, cite them.

2. God is not responsible for spontaneous miscariages. There are biological and spiritual reasons why they do occure. Even the article you posted delineated some of the biological reasons why sponteneous miscarriages do happen. The developmental process of every cell has checks and balances. These checks are programed into the molecular clock of such a cell to ensure that the cell or cells survive and perform their alloted tasks. If a cell or cells suffer chromosomal abnormalities or extensive DNA damage, the check process marks those cells for destruction.

3.The occasional occurrence of spontenous miscarriage should not be used to justify abortion or man mediated miscarriages. Just like the observation that humans die naturally is not an alibi for murder.

nwankwo,

Your response has made my day. It is absolutely intelligent. I like the blue-shaded portion of #3 point. It is wonderful.

@cgift

Thanks for your kind words. You have made my day too. Stay blessed!

m_nwankwo:

@Huxley

I will address the issues you and the articles you posted raised.

1. The National Institute of Health is a well respected body and has a lot of eminent scientists. An article that refers to them as a source remains an opinion except if the scientific paper on which the article is based is cited. The scientific paper can then be examined with several other papers in a similar area and a reasonable inference can be made. Please site the original scientific papers on which the articles are based. Only then will it be possible for the methods, the results and the conclusion of the paper subjected to analysis. If you have the original scientific papers, cite them.

2. God is not responsible for spontaneous miscariages. There are biological and spiritual reasons why they do occure. Even the article you posted delineated some of the biological reasons why sponteneous miscarriages do happen. The developmental process of every cell has checks and balances. These checks are programed into the molecular clock of such a cell to ensure that the cell or cells survive and perform their alloted tasks. If a cell or cells suffer chromosomal abnormalities or extensive DNA damage, the check process marks those cells for destruction.

3.The occasional occurrence of spontenous miscarriage should not be used to justify abortion or man mediated miscarriages. Just like the observation that humans die naturally is not an alibi for murder.

Of course, I have not got the original research paper but have to rely on the authorities of these research bodies. If these figures had been in dispute I am sure they would not be published, or if published withdrawn or given with some warnings. Several other scientific bodies have release similar figures.

That is the way science and research works. It builds on the works of others. If the foundational work is in dispute, that will soon be discovered. In my previous incarnation as a research engineer,, I had to rely on the results of other research bodies and did not have to re-do all their work just to progress mine.

Are you in dispute with the figures? What if it was not 30 - 50% but say 1%. Would you be more comfortable with that? Or are you saying that NO natural miscarriage take place whatsoever?

Another article with journal references about the number of natural miscarriges;
Source: http://www.americanpregnancy.org/pregnancycomplications/miscarriage.html


Spontaneous abortion (SAB), or miscarriage, is the term used for a pregnancy that ends on it's own, within the first 20 weeks of gestation. The medical name spontaneous abortion (SAB) gives many women a negative feeling, so throughout this article we will refer to any type of spontaneous abortion or pregnancy loss under 20 weeks as miscarriage.

Miscarriage is the most common type of pregnancy loss, according to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG). Studies reveal that anywhere from 10-25% of all clinically recognized pregnancies will end in miscarriage. Chemical pregnancies may account for 50-75% of all miscarriages. This occurs when a pregnancy is lost shortly after implantation, resulting in bleeding that occurs around the time of her expected period. The woman may not realize that she conceived when she experiences a chemical pregnancy.

Most miscarriages occur during the first 13 weeks of pregnancy. Pregnancy can be such an exciting time, but with the great number of recognized miscarriages that occur, it is beneficial to be informed about miscarriage, in the unfortunate event that you find yourself or someone you know faced with one.

There can be many confusing terms and moments that accompany a miscarriage. There are different types of miscarriage, different treatments for each, and different statistics for what your chances are of having one. The following information gives a broad overview of miscarriage. This information is provided to help equip you with knowledge so that you might not feel so alone or lost if you face a possible miscarriage situation. As with most pregnancy complications, remember that the best person you can usually talk to and ask questions of is your health care provider.

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Why do miscarriages occur?

The reason for miscarriage is varied, and most often the cause cannot be identified. During the first trimester, the most common cause of miscarriage is chromosomal abnormality - meaning that something is not correct with the baby's chromosomes. Most chromosomal abnormalities are the cause of a faulty egg or sperm cell, or are due to a problem at the time that the zygote went through the division process. Other causes for miscarriage include (but are not limited to):

* Hormonal problems, infections or maternal health problems
* Lifestyle (i.e. smoking, drug use, malnutrition, excessive caffeine and exposure to radiation or toxic substances)
* Implantation of the egg into the uterine lining does not occur properly
* Maternal age
* Maternal trauma

Factors that are not proven to cause miscarriage are sex, working outside the home (unless in a harmful environment) or moderate exercise.
What are the chances of having a Miscarriage?

For women in childbearing years, the chances of having a miscarriage can range from 10-25%, and in most healthy women the average is about a 15-20% chance.

* An increase in maternal age affects the chances of miscarriage
* Women under the age of 35 yrs old have about a 15% chance of miscarriage
* Women who are 35-45 yrs old have a 20-35% chance of miscarriage
* Women over the age of 45 can have up to a 50% chance of miscarriage
* A woman who has had a previous miscarriage has a 25% chance of having another (only a slightly elevated risk than for someone who has not had a previous miscarriage)

What are the Warning signs of Miscarriage:

If you experience any or all of these symptoms, it is important to contact your doctor or a medical facility to evaluate if you could be having a miscarriage:

* Mild to severe back pain (often worse than normal menstrual cramps)
* Weight loss
* White-pink mucus
* True contractions (very painful happening every 5-20 minutes)
* Brown or bright red bleeding with or without cramps (20-30% of all pregnancies can experience some bleeding in early pregnancy, with about 50% of those resulting in normal pregnancies)
* Tissue with clot like material passing from the vagina
* Sudden decrease in signs of pregnancy

The different types of Miscarriage:

Miscarriage is often a process and not a single event. There are many different stages or types of miscarriage. There is also a lot of information to learn about healthy fetal development so that you might get a better idea of what is going on with your pregnancy. Understanding early fetal development and first trimester development can help you to know what things your health care provider is looking for when there is a possible miscarriage occurring.

Most of the time all types of miscarriage are just called miscarriage, but you may hear your health care provider refer to other terms or names of miscarriage such as:

Threatened Miscarriage: Some degree of early pregnancy uterine bleeding accompanied by cramping or lower backache. The cervix remains closed. This bleeding is often the result of implantation.

Inevitable or Incomplete Miscarriage: Abdominal or back pain accompanied by bleeding with an open cervix. Miscarriage is inevitable when there is a dilation or effacement of the cervix and/or there is rupture of the membranes. Bleeding and cramps may persist if the miscarriage is not complete.

Complete Miscarriage: A completed miscarriage is when the embryo or products of conception have emptied out of the uterus. Bleeding should subside quickly, as should any pain or cramping. A completed miscarriage can be confirmed by an ultrasound or by having a surgical curettage performed.

Missed Miscarriage: Women can experience a miscarriage without knowing it. A missed miscarriage is when embryonic death has occurred but there is not any expulsion of the uterus. It is not known why this occurs. Signs of this would be a loss of pregnancy symptoms and the absence of fetal heart tones found on an ultrasound.

Recurrent Miscarriage (RM): Defined as 3 or more consecutive first trimester miscarriages. This can affect 1% of couples trying to conceive.

Blighted Ovum: Also called an anembryonic pregnancy. A fertilized egg implants into the uterine wall, but fetal development never begins. Often there is a gestational sac with or without a yolk sac, but there is an absence of fetal growth.

Ectopic Pregnancy: A fertilized egg implants itself in places other than the uterus, most commonly the fallopian tube. Treatment is needed immediately to stop the development of the implanted egg. If not treated rapidly, this could end in serious maternal complications.

Molar Pregnancy: The result of a genetic error during the fertilization process that leads to growth of abnormal tissue within the uterus. Molar pregnancies rarely involve a developing embryo, but often entail the most common symptoms of pregnancy including a missed period, positive pregnancy test and severe nausea.
Treatment of Miscarriage:

The main goal of treatment during or after a miscarriage is to prevent hemorrhaging and/or infection. The earlier you are in the pregnancy, the more likely that your body will expel all the fetal tissue by itself and will not require further medical procedures. If the body does not expel all the tissue, the most common procedure performed to stop bleeding and prevent infection is a dilation and curettage, known as a D&C. Drugs may be prescribed to help control bleeding after the D&C is performed. Bleeding should be monitored closely once you are at home; if you notice an increase in bleeding or the onset of chills or fever, it is best to call your physician immediately.
Prevention of Miscarriage:

Since the cause of most miscarriages is due to chromosomal abnormalities, there is not much that can be done to prevent them. One vital step is to get as healthy as you can before conceiving to provide a healthy atmosphere for conception to occur.

* Exercise regularly
* Eat healthy
* Manage stress
* Keep weight within healthy limits
* Take folic acid daily
* Do not smoke

Once you find out that you are pregnant, again the goal is to be as healthy as possible, to provide a healthy environment for your baby to grow in:

* Keep your abdomen safe
* Do not smoke or be around smoke
* Do not drink alcohol
* Check with your doctor before taking any over-the-counter medications
* Limit or eliminate caffeine
* Avoid environmental hazards such as radiation, infectious disease and x-rays
* Avoid contact sports or activities that have risk of injury

Emotional Treatment:

Unfortunately, miscarriage can affect anyone. Women are often left with unanswered questions regarding their physical recovery, their emotional recovery and trying to conceive again. It is very important that women try to keep the lines of communication open with family, friends and health care providers during this time.

Some helpful web sites that address miscarriage and pregnancy loss include:

* www.nationalshareoffice.com
* www.mend.org
* www.aplacetoremember.com
* www.madisonfoundation.org


Last Updated: 7/2007

Compiled using information from the following sources:

Current Obstetric & Gynecologic Diagnosis & Treatment Ninth Ed. DeCherney, Alan H., et al, Ch. 14.

MedlinePlus [Internet]. Bethesda (MD): National Library of Medicine (US); [updated 2006 Feb 23]. Pregnancy Loss; [updated 2006 Feb 22; reviewed 2006 Feb 7; cited 2006 Feb 23]. Available from: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/pregnancyloss.html

Planning Your Pregnancy and Birth Third Ed. The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, Ch. 15.

Williams Obstetrics Twenty-Second Ed. Cunningham, F. Gary, et al, Ch. 9.

Miscarriage statistics miss about a third of cases

No one knows how many miscarriages are already treated in primary care as the only statistics published in Britain come from hospital inpatient figures. On p 32 Everett reports the results of a prospective community study of bleeding in early pregnancy. Extrapolations from live birth and population figures suggest that there may be 70 000-90 000 miscarriages every year in England and Wales, and about a third of these women are not admitted to hospital. The data also suggest that the risk of a miscarriage among women who have miscarried their previous pregnancy is not significantly higher than that for other women.

Source: British Medical Journal (BMJ) http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/315/7099/0/d

BMJ article with references at http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/315/7099/32

@Huxley

1. Thanks for providing some original articles. I have in previous posts stated that sponteneous miscarriage can and do occure. I rejected the figures you are citing because no body has actually sat down to do a robust research on the issue. What is been bandied about are estimations made from a cohort of few samples. Estimating the number of sponteneous miscarriages in England and Wales using a sample size of less than a thousand is not good science. More suprising is the assertion by these investigators that 30-50% of fertilized eggs are lost before the women realise that they are pregnant. How did these investigators come to this observation? They only assumed that it is so without data.

2. The gist of my point is that spontenous miscarriges do happen either as a result of biological self regulation or due to non biolgical reasons, and that human assited miscarriages or abortion is morally wrong. Just like a man has no right to kill his neighbour, he too has no right to destroy an embryo or foetus. The foetus or embryo is human. It is just a state in the devlopment of the human body. At no stage in the development of the human body is its destruction permissible. Whether it is a fertilized egg, an embryo, a foetus in the first or last trimester, at birth, at pubertity, during adulthood and old age, it is the same human life that is involved. Thus from conception to death is a single continum and trying to separate this continum in order to justify the destruction of one step in the continum is illogical since the successful completion of step A leads to step B, C, D etc.

m_nwankwo:

@Huxley

1. Thanks for providing some original articles. I have in previous posts stated that sponteneous miscarriage can and do occure. I rejected the figures you are citing because no body has actually sat down to do a robust research on the issue. What is been bandied about are estimations made from a cohort of few samples. Estimating the number of sponteneous miscarriages in England and Wales using a sample size of less than a thousand is not good science. More suprising is the assertion by these investigators that 30-50% of fertilized eggs are lost before the women realise that they are pregnant. How did these investigators come to this observation? They only assumed that it is so without data.

2. The gist of my point is that spontenous miscarriges do happen either as a result of biological self regulation or due to non biolgical reasons, and that human assited miscarriages or abortion is morally wrong. Just like a man has no right to kill his neighbour, he too has no right to destroy an embryo or foetus. The foetus or embryo is human. It is just a state in the devlopment of the human body. At no stage in the development of the human body is its destruction permissible. Whether it is a fertilized egg, an embryo, a foetus in the first or last trimester, at birth, at pubertity, during adulthood and old age, it is the same human life that is involved. Thus from conception to death is a single continum and trying to separate this continum in order to justify the destruction of one step in the continum is illogical since the successful completion of step A leads to step B, C, D etc.

m_nwankwo,

Thanks for your response. Looks like we are now quibbling over research methodology and numbers.

1. Thanks for providing some original articles. I have in previous posts stated that sponteneous miscarriage can and do occure. I rejected the figures you are citing because no body has actually sat down to do a robust research on the issue. What is been bandied about are estimations made from a cohort of few samples. Estimating the number of sponteneous miscarriages in England and Wales using a sample size of less than a thousand is not good science. More suprising is the assertion by these investigators that 30-50% of fertilized eggs are lost before the women realise that they are pregnant. How did these investigators come to this observation? They only assumed that it is so without data.

Natural miscarriage is a reality and I recently experience this in my family. These are miscarriages were the woman knew they were pregnant. The figures are quite high (10-25%), as reported in one of the studies above, quote below;

Miscarriage is the most common type of pregnancy loss, according to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG). [/b]Studies reveal that anywhere from 10-25% of all clinically recognized pregnancies will end in miscarriage. [b]Chemical pregnancies may account for 50-75% of all miscarriages. This occurs when a pregnancy is lost shortly after implantation, resulting in bleeding that occurs around the time of her expected period. The woman may not realize that she conceived when she experiences a chemical pregnancy.

This figure is attributed to ACOG, and I would tend to respect their eminence in this area. Are you also casting doubts on the figure of 10-25% of known pregnancies that end in miscarriage? I suppose research such cases is relatively less trickier than the cases where the woman is unaware of the pregnancy. Even for this type of miscarriage, this amounts to millions of foetuses (humans, or souls) lost naturally.

For Chemical pregnancies, the figure of 50-75% is appallingly very large. The range (25) suggests that there is a lot of unknown in the true numbers. Now, you are querying the methodology. Let's imagine how this could have been done;

1) Sample a population of women who sexually active and trying to get pregnant
2) Get these women to submit biological specimens (menstral output, blood, urine, etc) every month for analysis.
3) Examine these for signs of fertilised eggs. Examine hormone levels in urine/blood.
-
-
-
10) Use statistical analysis to interpret results and do epidemiological investigations and implications of the result
etc.

Do you think this is beyond the capabilities of modern day scientist? In fact, this is the bread and butter of most research discipline. Of course, selecting the sample size and characteristic is crucial. Pollsters routinely do forecast and predictions base of sample sizes of about 1000.

What size is the right size? CAn you suggest the correct sample size for the population of the UK (70million)? Or are you going to sample all sexually active women of child-bearing age? There are statistical methods for adjusting and interpreting such work.

They only assumed that it is so without data

How did you come by this? How do you know they have no data? Do you think the ACOG would not be interested in this sort of research? Do you think it would be beyond their wit to gather such data?



The fact is millions of fertilised eggs are lost yearly through natural processes. These may be eggs lost soon after fertilisation or later into the pregnancy. The question is why would the creator arrange for such wasteful extermination of souls. We should count ourselves lucky in a way. We got the chance to experience this reality. But many potential billions more are wasted yearly or not even given the faintest chance.

Some more useful links:

http://www.acog.org/publications/patient_education/bp090.cfm
http://www.healthpolitics.org/program_transcript.asp?p=miscarriage

Chemical pregnancies
It is not unusual to have an early positive hCG result on an HPT and then begin a heavy period soon after. Chemical pregnancies are those that result when a fertilized egg implants in the uterus and develops just enough to start producing hCG but then stops for some reason. This happens with about 30 to 50 percent of all fertilized eggs because they are incapable of developing into a viable embryo. Before technology evolved sufficiently to detect these early pregnancies, women just considered themselves late. Source: http://www.ynhh.org/healthlink/womens/womens_4_04.html

A chemical pregnancy is the term given to a pregnancy that ends very early in the first trimester. Chemical pregnancies are confirmed by testing for hCG, the hormones that indicate the presence of a pregnancy. These hormones are typically detected by a urine or blood pregnancy test. However, within weeks, these hCG levels begin to drop rapidly, signifying an end to the pregnancy. As a result, your baby and his amniotic sac cannot be seen on an ultrasound and a miscarriage takes place. Source: http://www.womens-health.co.uk/chemical.html

The true cause of a chemical pregnancy is not known, however, most believe it is due to abnormal chromosomes within the fetus. These chromosomal abnormalities can be due to several factors including poor quality sperm or egg, abnormal cell division of the fetus, and / or genetic abnormalities of either mother or father. It is thought that approximately 50 - 60% of first trimester miscarriages are due to some type of chromosomal abnormality. Other causes of a chemical pregnancy are thought to be related to infection (ie. Chlamydia, Cytomegalovirus, Genital herpes, Syphilis, Toxoplasmosis, and Rubella), abnormal uterine anatomy (ie. unicornate uterus or septate uterus), abnormal hormonal levels within the mother (ie. low progesterone), and systemic illnesses (ie. untreated thyroid disease). Source: http://www.ourmiscarriage.com/chemical_pregnancy.html

@Huxley
Thanks again for your submission. I address the issues you raised as follows

1. I am not just disputing the numbers and methodologies but also that these figures are purely estimates. How do I know that. I am a biomedical scientists myself and in the pub med which is the bank for biomedical research papers, their are 25925 original articles on sponteneous abortion and 8160 original articles on chemical abortion only. None of these papers have demonstrated the percentage of chemical abortion by raw data, what you have is estimation. You too recognised that a margin of 25% is not acceptable for a finding that is supposed to be correct. Such wide variation arose because the results are based on estimates. You correctly noted the way an investiigation can be carried out to find out the rate of chemical abortion but such a study has not been done as far as I know. If you are aware of any such study, cite them and I will check it out.

2. In some of the articles you refered, the biological causes for spontaneous abortion were mentioned. It is an irony that you ignored the same biological causes you posted just to blame God. So if a woman miscarries due to infection, chromosomal abnormalities etc, then God takes the blame. Have you asked why infections in the first place, why chromosomal and genetic abnormalities in the first place?. God is not responsible for spontaneous abortions or any disease for that matter. When it becomes necessary, we may discuss where diseases, suffering etc originated.

m_nwankwo:

@Huxley
Thanks again for your submission. I address the issues you raised as follows

1. I am not just disputing the numbers and methodologies but also that these figures are purely estimates. How do I know that. I am a biomedical scientists myself and in the pub med which is the bank for biomedical research papers, their are 25925 original articles on sponteneous abortion and 8160 original articles on chemical abortion only. None of these papers have demonstrated the percentage of chemical abortion by raw data, what you have is estimation. You too recognised that a margin of 25% is not acceptable for a finding that is supposed to be correct. Such wide variation arose because the results are based on estimates. You correctly noted the way an investiigation can be carried out to find out the rate of chemical abortion but such a study has not been done as far as I know. If you are aware of any such study, cite them and I will check it out.

2. In some of the articles you refered, the biological causes for spontaneous abortion were mentioned. It is an irony that you ignored the same biological causes you posted just to blame God. So if a woman miscarries due to infection, chromosomal abnormalities etc, then God takes the blame. Have you asked why infections in the first place, why chromosomal and genetic abnormalities in the first place?. God is not responsible for spontaneous abortions or any disease for that matter. When it becomes necessary, we may discuss where diseases, suffering etc originated.

Thanks again for your submission. I get the feeling that you are not giving me the best of what you known in this area, despite the obvious fact the you seem to know a great deal on the subject. For instance, you made the following comment;

None of these papers have demonstrated the percentage of chemical abortion "by raw data", what you have is estimation.

What do you mean "by raw data"?

I agree that when you extrapolate from a sample study, you are necessarily entering the world of guess-stimation. This is sometimes acceptable and policy decisions are sometimes made on just such estimate.

Anyway, let us not stray too far from the main point of discussion, which is that there is an unacceptable high number of pregnancies lost through chemical abortions and known miscarriages. For the US alone, it is reported as having 1 million known miscarriages, without even counting the chemical miscarriages.

My point is, if human life being right from fertilisation, then the human reproductive system is extremely wasteful in naturally destroying these many humans. From a theistic worldview, the creator (god) is the designer of everything, material and immaterial, living and non-living. I am sure you would agree with that comment.

Then the questions arise; Was this creator incompetent in his job? Why did he create a world where millions of his children (with souls and spirit) are lost yearly. In short, I am blaming god for designing a defective product that suffers many thousands of diseases.

@Huxley

Thanks again for your submissions. I will address this issues you raised as follows:

1. By raw data, I mean data generated from carrying out experiments to test the occurence of chemical pregnancies/loss of chemical pregnacies. The data on chemical pregnancies currently available are extrapolations from related things like bleeding during 1st trimester pregnancies, sponteneous abortion among women attending a clinic etc. The very nature of chemical pregnancies makes it difficult to recruit relevant women for such a study. Unless people are sick or have problems with concieving, you will not find them in hospitals or clinics. Most women will probably not volunteer for such a study and that may explain why there is paucity of raw data. In its absense, investigators now extrapolate or estimate based on studies examining related matters. That is why I did state that these studies are estimates and the results from such studies should be treated with caution.

2. Now to the more important aspect of your question. Yes God is the creator including the female physical body. You queried why a perfect God should create a reproductive system prone to chemical abortion, miscarriages and diseases. The answer is that God did not create a flawed process, the flaws, the diseses and the problems arose as a result of mans freewill or more precisely the misuse of the free will. Thus your analysis assume that the present physical body including the reproductive system is the way God made it originally. Not at all, what you see today is a distorted physical body. Slumbering in the soul of human beings are uncounscious memories of how it was when God made us, how beautiful it was when we followed Gods will and surrendered to Gods guidance. Those perceptions speak of a paradise on earth without dieases, without problems. At that time, humans were radiant and beautiful, at that time there were no diseases, at that time, women concieve without problems and deliver without pains, at that time, there were no chemical pregnancies or miscarriages, at that time humans lived over 500 years. Those memories are today relegated to the realms of sagas and legends by the man of today. But they are neither myths nor legends but an unconscious premonition of how beautiful it was. What has changed this paradisical state of affairs? Man in the use of his free will interfered with the creators cosmic order, man out of his free voilition chose to disobey the laws of God. That is the origin of sin and that changed the whole dynamics. It is probably not hard to understand that when a creature decides to alter the program of his maker, only catastrophes will be the product. It is like non pilots hijacking a jetliner. If the Jetliner is flown by a trained pilot who follows the instruction of the manufacturer, it will fly the passages to safety and give them pleasure. If however it is hijacked by untrained men who cannot follow the instruction of the manufacture, the flight will end in disaster. That is a crude analogy but it reflects the reality of today. Thus the contraditions, diseses, problems, global warming, wars, hatred, religious intolerance and all the evils you see today is not the way God made it, they came into being as a result of man using his free will to go against Gods laws. And since God gave man the free will, God will not take it away from him since the use of free will can result in either redemption or destruction, the beauty of paradise or the torments of hell. Humans were radiant and pure in the beginnig and will also be so in the end. The distortions which you correctly noted lies in between the begining and the end for since the laws of God are inherently pure, evil can only exist for a time. In the end the evil will destroy itself and only the pure and good will remain as it was originally. Therefore a time will come when the earth will once more be a reflection of paradise and diseases willbe non existent.

m_nwankwo, pleasure to read from you again.

I shall plunge headlong into the beef, noting in passing that we have beaten the issue of chemical pregnancies to death.

I shall start by posing some questions: From a theistic perspective, is there any aspect of reality (material and immaterial) that was not created by God? If God created the universe and everything therein, does it not following that everything in his created universe was the product of his creation? If not, how do we distinguish what God created from what a different entity created?

Did God created freewill and in so doing, was he aware of the consequences of humans being endowed with freewill?

At what point in the current of time did He create freewill? Did freewill exist at the time of the stromatolites, dinosaurs, Neandarthals? In fact, were dinosaurs, Neandarthals, mammoths etc, equipped with freewill. Or is freewill an attribute only available to Homo sapiens?

I have got a number of problems with your theological views as they not only fail to accord with what we know about the reality of life but are also internally contradictory.

2. Now to the more important aspect of your question. Yes God is the creator including the female physical body. You queried why a perfect God should create a reproductive system prone to chemical abortion, miscarriages and diseases. The answer is that God did not create a flawed process, the flaws, the diseses and the problems arose as a result of mans freewill or more precisely the misuse of the free will. Thus your analysis assume that the present physical body including the reproductive system is the way God made it originally. Not at all, what you see today is a distorted physical body.

For a start, how could god have created the universe and everything therein without created the flaws? How created these flaws if it was not God? Why did God create freewill if he knew that it would be the downfall of man?

In fact, even before Humans came into being, many millions of species of animals and plants have existed for many millions of years, suffering and dying legion of diseases, natural disasters, earthquakes, volcanoes, droughts etc. Why don't you check out the calamitous effects of the end-permian extinctions to see the devastating character of nature. These flaws caused the suffering of millions of animals many millions of years before humans appeared on the scene.

The human reproductive systems in many ways mirrors that of many other mammals. That many of these mammals suffer similar human diseases is no surprise at all given that humans and mammals are products of the same evolutionary process.

Modern humans did not arrive onto the landscape until about 100 - 150 thousand years ago. We have an unbroken links to our ancestral relatives going back many millions of years. These ancestors would have suffered similar "flaw" as we do today. Did these ancestor also have freewill, which imperil them to the flaws you describe?

Slumbering in the soul of human beings are uncounscious memories of how it was when God made us, how beautiful it was when we followed Gods will and surrendered to Gods guidance. Those perceptions speak of a paradise on earth without dieases, without problems. At that time, humans were radiant and beautiful, at that time there were no diseases, at that time, women concieve without problems and deliver without pains, at that time, there were no chemical pregnancies or miscarriages, at that time humans lived over 500 years.

As a man of science, you must have high regard for evidence-based pontifications. Where is the evidence for the above?

Those memories are today relegated to the realms of sagas and legends by the man of today. But they are neither myths nor legends but an unconscious premonition of how beautiful it was. What has changed this paradisical state of affairs? Man in the use of his free will interfered with the creators cosmic order, man out of his free voilition chose to disobey the laws of God. That is the origin of sin and that changed the whole dynamics. It is probably not hard to understand that when a creature decides to alter the program of his maker, only catastrophes will be the product. It is like non pilots hijacking a jetliner.

Humans were not about when calamitous events of millions of asteroid impacts, supervolcanoes, ice-ages, etc, cause havoc on the planet. How can you then reconcile the concept of human sins with pre-human natural disasters and diseases?

@Huxley

Thanks again for your submissions. You have raised a lot of issues all at once. It will take years for us to exhaustively discuss them. All the same I will attempt to address some of them as briefly as possible

1. There is God and his power. Every other thing small or big, visible or invisible is a gradation of the power of God that has a form or can be reproduced as a picture. All creatures are not only the power of God that has taken form but each form also uses the power of God to maintain its existence. The power of God carries all the basic elements for things that has come into existence, are in existence or will be in existence. The power of God has several gradations. There is a gradation which only God uses. Forms that arose out of the direct power of God are perfect and without flaws. Those creations and beings that arose out of the direct power of God have no free will. Then there are creations and beings that arose out of the indirect power of God, that is, when that power has been stepped down and transformed. Worlds and beings that arose from this stepped down power have the potential to develop to perfection through development. Therefore the spirit of man is not actaully a direct creation of God but an indirect creation of God. Since he has to undergo development to become perfect, man was endowed with intrinsic faculties including the free will and the antenna to sense the will of God. That is why the human spirit was originally created as a seed or a spirit germ. Just like a physical seed can develope into a fruit bearing tree only when sowed on a fertile soil, the human spirit seeds were sown in the world of matter so that by experiencing, they will mature and develop to perfection, thus instead of a seed, they become a self counscious spirit with a name, a personality and with the ability to be transformers for Gods power. This experiencing is only carried out by the free will. The free will is a part of the human spirit and does not reside in the human body, much less the bodies of the various animals you mentioned. Although this is a crude analogy but it will hopefully convey the picture. The power of God can be liked to nuclear power. The nuclear power in itself is neutral, neither good or bad but stands above these concepts. However its APPLICATION can be good or bad. It can be used to provide power to millions of people but it can also icinerate millions if this power is applied to nuclear bomb. Thus the power of God is neutral, the application of this power can bring good or evil. God applies his power only for good since God is the origin of all goodness. Man applies the power of God for either good or evil according to the way he excerises his free will. The power belongs to God but man has the God given ability to mould this power into good or evil forms. Since the power does not belong to man but a loan from God, he is accountable to the loan giver (God) on how he uses the loan (Gods power). Therefore the flaws and the imperfections you see arround you is a consequence of the wrong application of the power of God.

2. Yes God created the free will as an instrinsic aspect of the human spirit. Free will is the ability to make free decisions. Once a human spirit has taken a decision, God knows the consequences but God does not seek to know a decision before a decision is made. You can liken a free will that has not been used in making a particular decision as a blank page in a book. Once decisions are made, it changes from a blank page to an inscriped page. God cannot read the blank sheet since nothing is written on it but he can read the inscriptions in the written page even when the author has forgotten that he or she at one time inscribed those pages. Is it not an irony to demand that God finds a labtop in an empty room. Yes the posibility that some men may misuse there free will was foreseen and that is why he was equipped with a powerful spiritual antennae that will always protect him or her from falling. God will admonish man to tune to this antennae but cannot not force him. If he chose not to listen to this antanae, then that is his choice and catastrophe will be the consequnce until he looses the privelage to develope to a fruit bearing seed. I will return to this point later if it becomes necessary.

3. Changes in nature are normal process of development. For the time being I will remain with humans so as not complicate the picture. All the natural catastrophes you mentioned are within the normal cycle of birth, development and death. The difference is that if men had follwoed the will of God, they will be told by servants of God precisely where those changes will take place months or even years before the occurence. Thus neither humans nor animals will ever be harmed by natural earthquakes, volcanic eruption, sand storms, tornadoes etc. It is because we have lost this spiritual antennae that we either do not see the warnings or ignore them as the hallucinations of a mad man. Hopefully, I will perharps share a personal experience on this very point.

4. Sure I believe in evidence but in my view material evidence is just one part of the evidence, there is spiritual evidence too. You are right to ask for evidence for my pontifications. Unfortunately, I cannot provide you material or scientific evidence as of the moment. I can only give you spiritual evidence. However I believe that I and others will one day come up with scientific evidence that the earth was one paradisical. Since you do not by your belief consider non material evidence, I will say excersise some patience, the material evidence to back the spiritual "pontifications" will come. In the same token I believe that humans are actually far older than the reported 150000 to 200000 years. I am confident when more DNA samples from these bygone times became available, it will be easy to shown that the human body as we know it today is not the way it was hundreds of thousands of years ago.

I enjoy discussing with you and look forward to more engagement on this topic. Stay blessed.

m_nwankwo:

@Huxley

Thanks again for your submissions. You have raised a lot of issues all at once. It will take years for us to exhaustively discuss them. All the same I will attempt to address some of them as briefly as possible

1. There is God and his power. Every other thing small or big, visible or invisible is a gradation of the power of God that has a form or can be reproduced as a picture. All creatures are not only the power of God that has taken form but each form also uses the power of God to maintain its existence. The power of God carries all the basic elements for things that has come into existence, are in existence or will be in existence. The power of God has several gradations. There is a gradation which only God uses. Forms that arose out of the direct power of God are perfect and without flaws. Those creations and beings that arose out of the direct power of God have no free will. Then there are creations and beings that arose out of the indirect power of God, that is, when that power has been stepped down and transformed. Worlds and beings that arose from this stepped down power have the potential to develop to perfection through development. Therefore the spirit of man is not actaully a direct creation of God but an indirect creation of God. Since he has to undergo development to become perfect, man was endowed with intrinsic faculties including the free will and the antenna to sense the will of God. That is why the human spirit was originally created as a seed or a spirit germ. Just like a physical seed can develope into a fruit bearing tree only when sowed on a fertile soil, the human spirit seeds were sown in the world of matter so that by experiencing, they will mature and develop to perfection, thus instead of a seed, they become a self counscious spirit with a name, a personality and with the ability to be transformers for Gods power. This experiencing is only carried out by the free will. The free will is a part of the human spirit and does not reside in the human body, much less the bodies of the various animals you mentioned. Although this is a crude analogy but it will hopefully convey the picture. The power of God can be liked to nuclear power. The nuclear power in itself is neutral, neither good or bad but stands above these concepts. However its APPLICATION can be good or bad. It can be used to provide power to millions of people but it can also icinerate millions if this power is applied to nuclear bomb. Thus the power of God is neutral, the application of this power can bring good or evil. God applies his power only for good since God is the origin of all goodness. Man applies the power of God for either good or evil according to the way he excerises his free will. The power belongs to God but man has the God given ability to mould this power into good or evil forms. Since the power does not belong to man but a loan from God, he is accountable to the loan giver (God) on how he uses the loan (Gods power). Therefore the flaws and the imperfections you see arround you is a consequence of the wrong application of the power of God.

2. Yes God created the free will as an instrinsic aspect of the human spirit. Free will is the ability to make free decisions. Once a human spirit has taken a decision, God knows the consequences but God does not seek to know a decision before a decision is made. You can liken a free will that has not been used in making a particular decision as a blank page in a book. Once decisions are made, it changes from a blank page to an inscriped page. God cannot read the blank sheet since nothing is written on it but he can read the inscriptions in the written page even when the author has forgotten that he or she at one time inscribed those pages. Is it not an irony to demand that God finds a labtop in an empty room. Yes the posibility that some men may misuse there free will was foreseen and that is why he was equipped with a powerful spiritual antennae that will always protect him or her from falling. God will admonish man to tune to this antennae but cannot not force him. If he chose not to listen to this antanae, then that is his choice and catastrophe will be the consequnce until he looses the privelage to develope to a fruit bearing seed. I will return to this point later if it becomes necessary.

3. Changes in nature are normal process of development. For the time being I will remain with humans so as not complicate the picture. All the natural catastrophes you mentioned are within the normal cycle of birth, development and death. The difference is that if men had follwoed the will of God, they will be told by servants of God precisely where those changes will take place months or even years before the occurence. Thus neither humans nor animals will ever be harmed by natural earthquakes, volcanic eruption, sand storms, tornadoes etc. It is because we have lost this spiritual antennae that we either do not see the warnings or ignore them as the hallucinations of a mad man. Hopefully, I will perharps share a personal experience on this very point.

4. Sure I believe in evidence but in my view material evidence is just one part of the evidence, there is spiritual evidence too. You are right to ask for evidence for my pontifications. Unfortunately, I cannot provide you material or scientific evidence as of the moment. I can only give you spiritual evidence. However I believe that I and others will one day come up with scientific evidence that the earth was one paradisical. Since you do not by your belief consider non material evidence, I will say excersise some patience, the material evidence to back the spiritual "pontifications" will come. In the same token I believe that humans are actually far older than the reported 150000 to 200000 years. I am confident when more DNA samples from these bygone times became available, it will be easy to shown that the human body as we know it today is not the way it was hundreds of thousands of years ago.

I enjoy discussing with you and look forward to more engagement on this topic. Stay blessed.

Nope the flaws are solely the fault of the creator not the creation,
I have a question for you "Can perfection bring about imperfection?"

1. I dont understand how there can possibly be a wrong application of "the power of god".

2. I guess that means your god aint omniscient

3. One cannot help but wonder, why the lord in all his wisdom created those things in the first place.

I have another question for you though. Supposedly the earth is over a billion years old and with time species have emerged and have disappeared, there have been lots of genes each competing for dominance, dinosaurs and mammals all competed for dominance eventually mammals won out. I assume you believe in evolution? ) and eventually man established dominance. I have to ask, what was the point of the evolution of man, the competition of genes and the conflict prior to the emergence of man? I assume god intended that man have dominance? Also did the prior species of man i.e Australopithecus, Homo erectus e.t.c. have freewill, access to "heaven", Do such concepts apply to them?

@JayFK

Nice to read your submissions. I address the issues you raised as follows:

1. The flaws are neither the fault of the creator nor of his creation. The flaws are simply due to the misapplication of Gods power by man. They are simply a consequence of the misuse of the gift of free will. In my reply to Huxley, I mentioned that some creations of God, those that arose directly out of his power are perfect and are not subject to development. Other creations originated when the power of God has been stepped down and those creations have the potential or the ability to be perfect but they will attain it through development. Using an earthly analogy, creations that originated out of the direct power of God were born as trees bearing fruit, and others that originated from the stepped down power of God were born as seeds that need to be sown and develop to a fruit bearing tree. The gift of free will is an intrinsic part of the human spirit and that what it needs to mature to perfection. How he uses that free will is his decision, not God. If he uses it as God wills, he will metamorphose from a seed to a fruit bearing tree. If however he uses it in ways that oppose the WILL of his maker, the fruit bearing tree will cease to bear fruits and regress back to a seed, a process generally refered to as eternal damnation and effacement from the book of life. Thus imperfection cannot arise from perfection and that is why anything that directly issues from God is perfect but things which indirectly issues from his power have to develop to perfection. Development in itself is not flaws or imperfection, it is a positive progress upwards step by step, steps in the ladder that will lead to perfection. Thus it is neither flaw ot imperfection that a seed was born as a seed, and not a full grown plant because the seed will develop into a full grown plant. Imperfections and flaws can only come into question when the development is twarted such that this potential of being a tree is lost. My view is that it is man that abrogates this development of himself and his enviroment by his intereference with the creators cosmic order. Has man not interfered with his makers program or design, then he and his enviroment will mature to perfection as God wills. Thus having wrecked himself and his enviroment, man then wonders why himself and his enviroment is filled with flaws and evil. It is like a man was handed a car by the car manufacturer, trained to drive by the manufacturer, given the instruction manual to operate the vehicle. One the instuctions is to use petrol to drive the car. He choose to drive with palm oil and then the car engine knocks down. He blames the car manufacturer for giving him a car that cannot use palm oil, he blames the maker of palm oil for creating the oil that spoit his car. In his blame game, he never realises that it is only him that caused the car to knock.

2. It is possible to wrongly apply Gods power. God is the owner of the power but all creatures came into existence from this power, is maintained by this power. The power itself stands outside good and evil, for better word it can be called neutral. Man can tap into this power and according to his desires guide it to evil or good deeds. That is the application. If he guides it for good, the power retains its purity, increases in strength and can attract higher gradations of the power of God. If he uses it for evil, the power looses its purity and strength, gets denser and finally severs itself from all connection with God, it becomes like air without oxgen and will finally fade away. That is the reason why good will always triumph over evil and light over darkness. It is not hard to picture it if I again use an earthly analogy. The energy entraped into an atom is neither good or evil. It can be harnessed or applied to produce nuclear energy giving electricity to millions of people (a good thing). It can also be applied to build nuclear bombs which on detonation can wipe out the entire mankind (evil thing).

3. God is omniscience. However my understanding of omniscience probably differs from yours. Omniscience means all knowing and that presupposes that there is something that is to be known. If there is something, God knows and if there is nothing, then there is nothing to know. God knows of everything that is in existence. To demand that God know of something that does not exist as a proof of his omniscience is to demand that your wife or son or brother find a labtop in your study when there no labtop in your study.

4. I believe that God created evolution and used it to bring about our physical bodies. Thus in my view, the evolutionary process that gave rise to our biological bodies was a design of God. The soul or rather the spirit that activates this body was created by God and infused into the body in the process of incarnation. Thus the spirit was not subjected to biological evolution. Animals do not have free will. Only man has free will and this free will does not reside in the human body or the brain but only in the spirit. However, the brain is the cordinating organ through which the human spirit controls the physical body. Hopefully I will later address how the fall of man also spread devastation not just in the animal kingdom but even in the non-material enviroments.

On human origins