Why on earth should I be punished for things the devil made me do?

COZA pastor's case for example.

The devil should be made to account for all the things he has made man do.








ermmm...I'm just being cheesy o. But hey, we can discuss it na.

Romans 7

13 So did something good bring death to me? Absolutely not! But sin caused my death through something good so that sin would be exposed as sin. That way sin would become even more thoroughly sinful through the commandment. 14 We know that the Law is spiritual, but I’m made of flesh and blood, and I’m sold as a slave to sin. 15 I don’t know what I’m doing, because I don’t do what I want to do. Instead, I do the thing that I hate. 16 But if I’m doing the thing that I don’t want to do, I’m agreeing that the Law is right. 17 But now I’m not the one doing it anymore. Instead, it’s sin that lives in me. 18 I know that good doesn’t live in me—that is, in my body. The desire to do good is inside of me, but I can’t do it. 19 I don’t do the good that I want to do, but I do the evil that I don’t want to do. 20 But if I do the very thing that I don’t want to do, then I’m not the one doing it anymore. Instead, it is sin that lives in me that is doing it.

21 So I find that, as a rule, when I want to do what is good, evil is right there with me. 22 I gladly agree with the Law on the inside, 23 but I see a different law at work in my body. It wages a war against the law of my mind and takes me prisoner with the law of sin that is in my body. 24 I’m a miserable human being. Who will deliver me from this dead corpse? 25 Thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then I’m a slave to God’s Law in my mind, but I’m a slave to sin’s law in my body.

This is the condition of every Christian, thank God for Christ. For if it were not for Christ we would have been of all men most miserable living conspicously for eternal damnation.

Romans 8
1 So now there isn’t any condemnation(punishment) for those who are in Christ Jesus

OK. Sin should be held responsible then and no devil, abi?

19 I don’t do the good that I want to do, but I do the evil that I don’t want to do. 20 But if I do the very thing that I don’t want to do, then I’m not the one doing it anymore. Instead, it is sin that lives in me that is doing it.

Is that the excuse we are to give each time we sin?

You refuse to complete that scripture sir...

shdemidemi: Romans 7

Romans 8
[color=#006600]1 So now there isn’t any condemnation(punishment) for those who are in Christ Jesus

contd.

...who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The devil does not make anybody do NOTHING, and though I am not perfect and have made mistakes , I accept 100% responsibility for my actions.

James 1:14
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

In a nutshell, if you don't work after the spirit(i.e according to the will of God which is his word)you will be punished, no?

frosbel: The devil does not make anybody do NOTHING, and though I am not perfect and have made mistakes , I accept 100% responsibility for my actions.

James 1:14
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Really?

How come they I keep saying it's the handiwork of the devil whenever they I sin?

The devil might not 'make' you do it, but the devil often 'facilitates' you doing it.

Without the devil, the sinful nature would not have existed, so in a sense, the devil can be blamed. If he didn't tempt Popsi Adams and Mumsi Eve, I would be running around with Tgirl4real nekkid in the garden.

As for punishment, let's just say you get punished as an accessory to crime - the criminal himself will get his punishment at the final judgement.

Tgirl4real:

Really?

How come they I keep saying it's the handiwork of the devil whenever they I sin?

But it is the handiwork of the devil! No be him convince Mumsi Eve to chop apple?

debosky: The devil might not 'make' you do it, but the devil often 'facilitates' you doing it.

Without the devil, the sinful nature would not have existed, so in a sense, the devil can be blamed. If he didn't tempt Popsi Adams and Mumsi Eve, I would be running around with Tgirl4real nekkid in the garden.

As for punishment, let's just say you get punished as an accessory to crime - the criminal himself will get his punishment at the final judgement.

hmmm....

Food for thought.

debosky: The devil might not 'make' you do it, but the devil often 'facilitates' you doing it.

Without the devil, the sinful nature would not have existed, so in a sense, the devil can be blamed. If he didn't tempt Popsi Adams and Mumsi Eve, I would be running around with Tgirl4real nekkid in the garden.

As for punishment, let's just say you get punished as an accessory to crime - the criminal himself will get his punishment at the final judgement.

The devil tempts you , and that's where it ends, the rest is up to you to yield or refuse to yield.

Personal responsibility is an important aspect of the true faith , especially because it leads to genuine repentance and forgiveness. The blame game does not cut it with God.

debosky:

But it is the handiwork of the devil! No be him convince Mumsi Eve to chop apple?

hehehehe

why mumsi Eve listen to him? Why she no run go meet popsie Adam?

frosbel:

The devil tempts you , and that's where it ends, the rest is up to you to yield or refuse to yield.

Personal responsibility is an important aspect of the true faith , especially because it leads to genuine repentance and forgiveness. The blame game does not cut it with God.

hmmm...

Another good one!

Where is Shdemidemi?

Tgirl4real:
hehehehe

why mumsi Eve listen to him? Why she no run go meet popsie Adam?

Mumsi Eve like beta tin, and she just chop the tori wey devil give am. She sef think say if she like am pospie Adam sef must to like am.

frosbel:

The devil tempts you , and that's where it ends, the rest is up to you to yield or refuse to yield.

No it doesn't. The sinful nature is inclined to sin - it is only doing what it knows how to do. Or did you decide to have a sinful nature?

You have misread what James was saying - he is simply saying that you can't blame God - he didn't say you can't blame the devil.

13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

Personal responsibility is an important aspect of the true faith , especially because it leads to genuine repentance and forgiveness. The blame game does not cut it with God.

This isn't a matter of blame game - I wasn't tempted to have a sinful nature - no choice involved! Call it blame game, I call it fact.

debosky:

Mumsi Eve like beta tin, and she just chop the tori wey devil give am. She sef think say if she like am pospie Adam sef must to like am.

You see...mumsi Eve should be punished for causing all these.

No it doesn't. The sinful nature is inclined to sin - it is only doing what it knows how to do. Or did you decide to have a sinful nature?

You have misread what James was saying - he is simply saying that you can't blame God - he didn't say you can't blame the devil.

13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;



This isn't a matter of blame game - I wasn't tempted to have a sinful nature - no choice involved! Call it blame game, I call it fact.

So, the devil should serve the punishment alone, right?

debosky:

No it doesn't. The sinful nature is inclined to sin - it is only doing what it knows how to do. Or did you decide to have a sinful nature?

That the sinful nature is inclined to sin, does not mean we should help it sin. Sin is an action we carry out based on our wrong choices. The desire to sin is different from sin itself.

For example God spoke this word to Cain :

"You will be accepted if you do what is right. But if you refuse to do what is right, then watch out! Sin is crouching at the door, eager to control you. But you must subdue it and be its master." - Genesis 4:7

Where we may agree somewhat is when sin becomes a habit or addiction due to our continuous yielding to it. In this scenario , the devil has succeeded and enhances the temptation to ensure total bondage. Only true repentance and the power of GOD can break the stronghold of SIN.

You have misread what James was saying - he is simply saying that you can't blame God - he didn't say you can't blame the devil.

13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

You cannot blame the devil, to do so turns one into a ZOMBIE or ROBOT who is incapable of making the right choices. Sorry , your position does not make any sense.

This isn't a matter of blame game - I wasn't tempted to have a sinful nature - no choice involved! Call it blame game, I call it fact.

To have a nature of sin is not a license to sin or a guarantee that you will sin.

Abel had the sinful nature but he did not sin in stark contrast to Cain.

debosky:

No it doesn't. The sinful nature is inclined to sin - it is only doing what it knows how to do. Or did you decide to have a sinful nature?

You have misread what James was saying - he is simply saying that you can't blame God - he didn't say you can't blame the devil.

13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

This isn't a matter of blame game - I wasn't tempted to have a sinful nature - no choice involved! Call it blame game, I call it fact.

ermm...my question Debosky is...

What's the difference between a believer and a non-believer then if we have no choice?

Tgirl4real:

ermm...my question Debosky is...

What's the difference between a believer and a non-believer then if we have no choice?

You didn't say this discussion was only about believers did you? I just took it to mean everyone - cos last I checked, not only believers say the devil made me do it.

The difference is clear - believers realise that there is really no 'choice' while remaining in our sinful nature; resist all you want, and you will still fail.

We stop trying to 'choose' not to sin, but realise that only by the life-giving Spirit can we overcome sin, not by 'choosing' not to sin.

We then become those who Paul spoke of in Ephesians:

For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him.

Without that power, you can't choose anything - you will end up doing what your sinful nature compels you to do.

debosky:


For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him.

Without that power, [b]you can't choose anythin[/b]g - you will end up doing what your sinful nature compels you to do.

Another nonsense statement

Everybody has a choice whether a believer or sinner, otherwise judgement day is a farce.

How can you be judged if you had no ability to make the right choices ?

SMH at your twisted logic.

hmmm....

Who is right now? Frosbel or Debosky?

As usual, your haste prevents you from understanding what I am saying.

The choice is not whether to sin or not to sin. EVERYONE sins and has sinned. You didn't choose to have a sinful nature - that choice was already made for you by your predecessor. Comprende?

As for judgement day, the choice is now between accepting God's gift of salvation or not - this is not a choice not to sin because we are not saved by deciding not to sin, but by accepting Jesus' atonement for our sins - past, present and future.

You cannot choose anything without the power - even if we assume you can 'choose' not to sin further, the sin you've previously sinned already counts against you, so your choice is useless.

The only choice is between accepting Jesus' salvation or not.

debosky:

You didn't say this discussion was only about believers did you? I just took it to mean everyone - cos last I checked, not only believers say the devil made me do it.

I had to bring in that for those that don't get the gist.

Are you not contradicting yourself with these 2 statements...

debosky:
As for punishment, let's just say you get punished as an accessory to crime - the criminal himself will get his punishment at the final judgement.

and...

debosky:

Without that power, you can't choose anything - you will end up doing what your sinful nature compels you to do.

why should I be punished then for the things I have no choice over?

debosky: As usual, your haste prevents you from understanding what I am saying.

The choice is not whether to sin or not to sin. EVERYONE sins and has sinned. You didn't choose to have a sinful nature - that choice was already made for you by your predecessor. Comprende?

As for judgement day, the choice is now between accepting God's gift of salvation or not - this is not a choice not to sin because we are not saved by deciding not to sin, but by accepting Jesus' atonement for our sins - past, present and future.

You cannot choose anything without the power - even if we assume you can 'choose' not to sin further, the sin you've previously sinned already counts against you, so your choice is useless.

The only choice is between accepting Jesus' salvation or not.

I think I get you now.

debosky: As usual, your haste prevents you from understanding what I am saying.

The choice is not whether to sin or not to sin. EVERYONE sins and has sinned. You didn't choose to have a sinful nature - that choice was already made for you by your predecessor. Comprende?

As for judgement day, the choice is now between accepting God's gift of salvation or not - this is not a choice not to sin because we are not saved by deciding not to sin, but by accepting Jesus' atonement for our sins - past, present and future.

You cannot choose anything without the power - even if we assume you can 'choose' not to sin further, the sin you've previously sinned already counts against you, so your choice is useless.

The only choice is between accepting Jesus' salvation or not.

You are still not getting the point.

How did the tens of millions who were born before Christ and did not know God get saved ? Job was not a Jew , yet he was righteous in God's eyes because he feared God and conducted his lifestyle accordingly. Same applies to all MEN.


We have a choice , all of us , and that is what counts, Jesus is on the side of ALL who fear God and obey him, Jesus is against ALL who ( even those who claim to be Christians ) do not fear GOD or obey him.


Funny thing is we have so many believers who abuse grace thinking they will be saved anyway on the last day, they are in for a shocker.

God is no respecter of persons , Pal.

frosbel:

You are still not getting the point.

How did the tens of millions who were born before Christ and did not know God get saved ? Job was not a Jew , yet he was righteous in God's eyes because he feared God and conducted his lifestyle accordingly. Same applies to all MEN.


We have a choice , all of us , and that is what counts, Jesus is on the side of ALL who fear God and obey him, Jesus is against ALL who ( even those who claim to be Christians ) do not fear GOD or obey him.


Funny thing is we have so many believers who abuse grace thinking they will be saved anyway on the last day, they are in for a shocker.

God is no respecter of persons , Pal.

Where does God's sovereignty come in here Frosbel?

Tgirl4real:

Where does God's sovereignty come in here Frosbel?

Hmm, don't even go there, are you a Calvinist ?

This Coza scandal reminds me of King David

Will be back

frosbel:

Hmm, don't even go there, are you a Calvinist ?

I am a child of God.

But I believe salvation is 100% God.

HumbledbYGrace: This Coza scandal reminds me of King David

Will be back

God punished David, didn't he?

Tgirl4real:

I am a child of God.

But I believe salvation is 100% God.

Salvation is a future thing, we are ONLY saved if we endure to the very end.

"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved." - Matthew 24:13

and


"who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time." - 1 Peter 1:5


Besides grace is not a license to sin, we can abuse grace and fall away from the faith.



" What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?" - Romans 6:15-16

@Tgirl4real,
This is a tongue in cheek post I can see. Your OP topic is a direct replay of what happened in the garden of Eden and everyone got punished....Adam, Eve and the serpent/devil. Indeed God is no respecter of persons.

@Frosbel is making lots of valid comments by the way. We can keep claiming grace covers while sinning but we tend to forget the devil is also prowling looking for whom to devour and destroy and it will be most unfortunate if he takes occasion of that sin to have access to the life of the believer to do much more evil or death comes when the person is still in sin without opportunity to repent hence the sayings of the Lord...He that endures to the end shall be saved.

John says anyone born of God does not continue to sin; why? Because the one who was born of God keeps him safe,and the evil one cannot harm him.(1John 5:18).

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


Ultimately the only way you or I can know for sure that we are a genuine child of God is by the Holy Spirit making us know this fact with certainty deep within.

Gal. 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.


As part of our sanctification, the Holy Spirit produces in us love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self- control. These characteristics are formed in us by continual yielding to the Spirit of God.This is what i call christian maturity for Jesus says by their fruits ye shall know them.