Mr anony:
answered here

You seem to have forgotten when you were talking about striving against the flesh. And the point about whether or not you sin is something that you can answer yourself with a yes or no. It wasn't an ad hominem.

Mr anony:
This shows you have not been paying attention.
Now that you know a bit more about what being born again is, kindly answer from scripture: Was the devil ever born again?
About Jeffrey Dahmer I answered here

No the devil wasn't born again but neither are the angels, Jesus, God or the holy spirit. And based on that response about Jeffrey Dahmer, since he'll be having free will in heaven, what would stop him from acting like the devil? Note that being born-again is to get you into heaven. It doesn't mean you'll remain there. And that he has his free-will.

Mr anony:
What information specifically were you looking for about being born again that you feel I have "massaged out"?

You didn't say whether or not a bathing in water without soap was required, accepting that Jesus died for your sins you didn't even talk about salvation and reward.

Mr anony:
Are you blind? Read my post again, I explained what it means to be born again,
About whether I agreed with you or not; I told you that wikipedia was too basic for me to give my full agreement however I didn't disagree. You don't ask questions then try to force the answer you want you know.
About adding depth to what it means to be born again, I think I Muskeeto and I have done precisely that. If there is anything more you want to know about being born-again, you'll have to ask for it specifically.
The extra questions I tacked on was my way of testing if you actually knew what you were talking about. Apparently you didn't

Obviously you're lazy and ignorant because you haven't even met your own standards of explanation for what it means to be born-again.
Your so-called explanation and more were given in the article I posted but you suddenly started wailing and throwing up roadblocks.

Mr anony:
Lol. I laugh in Aramaic

Keep laughing. But they're still here see them below.

Mr anony:
Explain using bible references:
what one is born from and what he/she is born into.
what salvation is and why it is necessary
why those who are born again will make heaven while those who reject Christ will go to hell,
whether or not a person who is born again can lose the status of being born again
what exactly does a relationship with Christ entail.

If you think the goalposts you've moved are too wide for you that's all well and good so we can now get back to where we were before you derailed my point.

Here's a simple question for you. Is it logically possible for Jeffrey Dahmer to go against God's will in heaven while he has free will? Be careful with your answer because it has profound implications.

Mr anony:
The point I was making from those verse was simply that our flesh is in contention with the new spirit which is in us. Paul even exclaimed in 7:24 "who will deliver me from this body of death". I went further to argue that our sinful flesh shall be discarded at the coming of our Lord and we shall put on a Heavenly body.
How do I know that we will have new bodies at the resurrection? You can study 1Corinthians 15 especially from verse 42 downwards.

Here is an excerpt:

I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. - 1Corinthians 15:50-53

Have I satisfied your query now?

Firstly, the passage in Romans have nothing to do with what you were talking about. The verses in Romans are talking about people who accept Jesus and allow his spirit to dwell in them here on earth, it says his spirit will take over their lives and lead them acordingly here on earth and NOT in heaven. . .It has nothing to do with his second coming or his kingdom. . .Nothing at all. . .The verse in corithtians is also NOTY talking about the ability of not sinning, it only says that human nature will change from the perishable nature to imperishable nature. . .Mortal nature will be changed to immortality. . .No where does it say that humans will not sin in heaven or have the ability not to sin in heaven. . .Both passages in Romans and in corinthtians have nothing to do with what you are saying. . .

mazaje:

Firstly, the passage in Romans have nothing to do with what you were talking about. The verses in Romans are talking about people who accept Jesus and allow his spirit to dwell in them here on earth, it says his spirit will take over their lives and lead them acordingly here on earth and NOT in heaven. . .It has nothing to do with his second coming or his kingdom. . .Nothing at all. . .The verse in corithtians is also NOTY talking about the ability of not sinning, it only says that human nature will change from the perishable nature to imperishable nature. . .Mortal nature will be changed to immortality. . .No where does it say that humans will not sin in heaven or have the ability not to sin in heaven. . .Both passages in Romans and in corinthtians have nothing to do with what you are saying. . .

Lol, you are just being purposefully irrational.

I have shown you that we sin on earth because of the temptations of the flesh preventing us from living according to the Spirit of God in us.
I have also shown you that the flesh that causes us to be tempted into sin will be discarded and replaced with a pure spiritual one.
If in heaven the thing that causes us to sin is no longer there, from where will the sin come?

Do you want to argue the position that God's Spirit only leads people on earth but then abandons them or leads them against Himself in Heaven? You'll have to show from scripture where you are drawing such conclusions from if that's your argument.

Mr anony:
Lol, you are just being purposefully irrational.

I have shown you that we sin on earth because of the temptations of the flesh preventing us from living according to the Spirit of God in us.
I have also shown you that the flesh that causes us to be tempted into sin will be discarded and replaced with a pure spiritual one.
If in heaven the thing that causes us to sin is no longer there, from where will the sin come?

Do you want to argue the position that God's Spirit only leads people on earth but then abandons them or leads them against Himself in Heaven? You'll have to show from scripture where you are drawing such conclusions from if that's your argument.

Everything you talked about from the scriptures is to happen here on earth(with regards to sin), even the verse says that flesh that causes people to be tempted into sin will be discarded and replaced with a pure spiritual one here on earth not in heaven. . .The verse does not say that people will not sin in heaven. . .You are just arguing from silence. . .

thehomer:
You seem to have forgotten when you were talking about striving against the flesh. And the point about whether or not you sin is something that you can answer yourself with a yes or no. It wasn't an ad hominem.

He did not ask me a question.

No the devil wasn't born again but neither are the angels, Jesus, God or the holy spirit. And based on that response about Jeffrey Dahmer, since he'll be having free will in heaven, what would stop him from acting like the devil? Note that being born-again is to get you into heaven. It doesn't mean you'll remain there. And that he has his free-will.

No the devil wasn't born again and neither are the angels but for God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) it doesn't apply since being born again entails being led by God. and the thing that stops us from following God is the flesh because our desires are for God. and the flesh will be discarded so that nothing will oppose our Godly nature anymore. So basically what you are trying to argue by using the case of Jeff Dahmer is that it is possible in Heaven for God's holy nature to act against His holiness. That is why I asked you whether you know what it means to be born again.

You didn't say whether or not a bathing in water without soap was required, accepting that Jesus died for your sins you didn't even talk about salvation and reward.

What has bathing with soap or without soap got to do with anything. What precisely do you want to know about salvation and reward that you don't think I have covered?

Obviously you're lazy and ignorant because you haven't even met your own standards of explanation for what it means to be born-again.
Your so-called explanation and more were given in the article I posted but you suddenly started wailing and throwing up roadblocks.

Really? please quote bits of the article that explained what I explained better. If you can't point to anything specific you want me to explain, then you are only blowing hot air

Keep laughing. But they're still here see them below.



If you think the goalposts you've moved are too wide for you that's all well and good so we can now get back to where we were before you derailed my point.

yawn.

Here's a simple question for you. Is it logically possible for Jeffrey Dahmer to go against God's will in heaven while he has free will? Be careful with your answer because it has profound implications.

It is logically impossible because when one gets born again, he acquires God's nature; note this doesn't mean that he becomes a robot controlled by God rather he gains the character of God, he likes what God likes, hates the things God hates and does the kind of things God does. He still makes his own choices but his preferences have changed. The reason why a christian sins sometimes is because he/she is still hampered by the flesh and the trappings of a physical world (Romans 6-8 ). However at the rapture, he discards the flesh and with it every source of temptation (1Cor 15). In heaven, He will now be free to act according to his God nature without the temptations of the flesh. To say that the renewed man will sin in heaven is to say that God's nature will act against God's nature and that's a logical impossibility

Mr anony:
Show from scripture

From 1 John, it says. . ."If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

ad hominem. Proof please

Are you saying that you do not sin sometimes?. . .John in the bible say your decieve yourself if you claim that. . .

was Satan born-again?

Doesn't the bible put the angels are the purest of all god's creation?. . .It says human will be like angles in heaven. . .

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Hebrews 12:22-23 But you are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, who are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.

If angles that are higly placed can sin and wage war in heaven a place that is said to contain no sin, why not humans?. . .

mazaje:

Everything you talked about from the scriptures is to happen here on earth(with regards to sin), even the verse says that flesh that causes people to be tempted into sin will be discarded and replaced with a pure spiritual one here on earth not in heaven. . .The verse does not say that people will not sin in heaven. . .You are just arguing from silence. . .

Lol, since you want a bible verse:

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood.

The bible has now said to your hearing that sinners are outside heaven. It is now up to you to show from scripture why you think there will be sin in heaven

Mr anony:
Lol, since you want a bible verse:

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood.

The bible has now said to your hearing that sinners are outside heaven. It is now up to you to show from scripture why you think there will be sin in heaven

There is no sin in heaven, yet we are told that satan waged a war in heaven with many angles?. . .

mazaje:

From 1 John, it says. . ."If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

Are you saying that you do not sin sometimes?. . .John in the bible say your decieve yourself if you claim that. . .

Well said but moot. I've already shown sin is possible in the flesh

Doesn't the bible put the angels are the purest of all god's creation?. . .It says human will be like angles in heaven. . .

biblical proof please

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

This response was given in the context of marriage.

Hebrews 12:22-23 But you are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, who are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.

If angles that are higly placed can sin and wage war in heaven a place that is said to contain no sin, why not humans?. . .

Nothing about this passage tells us anything about the ability or inability of anyone to sin

mazaje: There is no sin in heaven, yet we are told that satan waged a war in heaven with many angels?. . .

But the devil is not like God in the same way that the saints will be like God. In the case of man, he has been redeemed from his fallen state and the righteousness of God has been imputed to him. He now has God's nature of holiness.
For the angels it is not so. They were created holy and will obediently serve God. If they rebelled by leaving their position, they will be cast into the lake of fire.

You can read here for more on angels and their freewill:

http://www.learnthebible.org/the-free-will-of-angels.html

Yo! Anony, aint you tired of arguing with them heathens
You know they don't believe in your imaginary heaven so even if you get to have or.gies there its none of their damn business
In fact, Psalm 14:1 to all atheists
No offeinse, but we give up!!!

Mr anony: He did not ask me a question.

Maybe you should have looked a bit closer.

Mr anony:
No the devil wasn't born again and neither are the angels but for God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) it doesn't apply since being born again entails being led by God. and the thing that stops us from following God is the flesh because our desires are for God. and the flesh will be discarded so that nothing will oppose our Godly nature anymore. So basically what you are trying to argue by using the case of Jeff Dahmer is that it is possible in Heaven for God's holy nature to act against His holiness. That is why I asked you whether you know what it means to be born again.

That's just it. If Mr. Dahmer has his own free-will, then he can act against God's nature. To say otherwise means to say that he actually has no free will.

Mr anony:
What has bathing with soap or without soap got to do with anything. What precisely do you want to know about salvation and reward that you don't think I have covered?

It has everything to do with it. Basically, how immersed should the person be in the water for baptism?

Mr anony:
Really? please quote bits of the article that explained what I explained better. If you can't point to anything specific you want me to explain, then you are only blowing hot air

You should really have read that article.

Wikipedia:
The traditional Jewish understanding of the promise of salvation is interpreted as being rooted in "the seed of Abraham"; that is in the physical lineage from Abraham. Jesus explained to Nicodemus that this doctrine was in error—that every person must have two births—the natural birth of the physical body, the other of the water and the spirit. This discourse with Nicodemus established the Christian belief that all human beings—whether Jew or Gentile—must be "born again" of the spiritual seed of Christ. The Apostle Peter further reinforced this understanding in 1 Peter 1:23. The Catholic Encyclopedia states that "[a] controversy existed in the primitive church over the interpretation of the expression the seed of Abraham. It is [the Apostle Paul's] teaching in one instance that all who are Christ's by faith are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to promise. He is concerned, however, with the fact that the promise is not being fulfilled to the seed of Abraham (referring to the Jews)."

Charles Hodge writes that "The subjective change wrought in the soul by the grace of God, is variously designated in Scripture" with terms such as new birth, resurrection, new life, new creation, renewing of the mind, dying to sin and living to righteousness, and translation from darkness to light.

. . . .

Evangelical Protestants employ the KJV translation of John 3:3 as "born again" rather than "born from above". "Although many evangelicals allow that conversion can be a process, generally they see it as a specific, identifiable moment of time when a person simply and sincerely trusts in Jesus Christ as savior."[14] They understand Romans 10:9 to indicate a requirement of salvation: "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord', and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." So, "to be born again" means "to be saved" because to be saved, one must confess Jesus is Lord with one's mouth and believe it in one's heart. Also, to be born again means to follow Romans 10:10 that "with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved".

Mr anony:
yawn.

It is funny how you keep yawning when you realize that you're unable to scale past your own goalposts.

Mr anony:
It is logically impossible because when one gets born again, he acquires God's nature; note this doesn't mean that he becomes a robot controlled by God rather he gains the character of God, he likes what God likes, hates the things God hates and does the kind of things God does. He still makes his own choices but his preferences have changed. The reason why a christian sins sometimes is because he/she is still hampered by the flesh and the trappings of a physical world (Romans 6-8 ). However at the rapture, he discards the flesh and with it every source of temptation (1Cor 15). In heaven, He will now be free to act according to his God nature without the temptations of the flesh. To say that the renewed man will sin in heaven is to say that God's nature will act against God's nature and that's a logical impossibility

This further demonstrates that you have no idea of what lies in the realm of logical possibilities. If he actually had free-will, then he will be able to go against God's character unless you wish to say that God's character has suppressed his free-will because his character is separate from God's character. For you to say otherwise would mean that his character and God's character are identical and if they were identical, then he actually has no free-will.

Being free to act according to his God nature also has the corollary of being free not to act according to his God nature since even then, there will be people who won't be acting according to this God nature. If he can freely choose to act according to this God nature, then he can freely choose to reject it. Saying otherwise means contradicting yourself on your notion of free-will.

thehomer:
Maybe you should have looked a bit closer.

It has everything to do with it. Basically, how immersed should the person be in the water for baptism?

The person should be immersed completely. The Greek word for it is baptizo which means to make fully wet.
In Colosians 2:12 Paul shows us that the batism involves fully submerging in water when he says

"....and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead....."

You should really have read that article.

Ok

It is funny how you keep yawning when you realize that you're unable to scale past your own goalposts.

Nah, I only yawn when you bore me

That's just it. If Mr. Dahmer has his own free-will, then he can act against God's nature. To say otherwise means to say that he actually has no free will.


This further demonstrates that you have no idea of what lies in the realm of logical possibilities. If he actually had free-will, then he will be able to go against God's character unless you wish to say that God's character has suppressed his free-will because his character is separate from God's character. For you to say otherwise would mean that his character and God's character are identical and if they were identical, then he actually has no free-will.

Being free to act according to his God nature also has the corollary of being free not to act according to his God nature since even then, there will be people who won't be acting according to this God nature. If he can freely choose to act according to this God nature, then he can freely choose to reject it. Saying otherwise means contradicting yourself on your notion of free-will.

Lol, on the contrary, I think it is you who doesn't fully understand the meaning of freewill. Let me see if I can help you by explaining it thus.
If you are heterosexual i.e. you prefer sexual intercourse with women than men, and as a result only have sexual relations with women and never with men, does this mean you don't have freewill? No it doesn't. You simply don't have any homosexual desires. Now what if all men who would have been a source of temptation were removed and you now lived in a land full of women. Now you neither have the desire nor the object. How can you possibly engage in homosexual sex? Does this mean your free-will disappeared? Absolutely not.

Now similarly sin is as a result of seeking to gratify the flesh. It is because we live in the flesh that we can be tempted. When we are not born again, our desires are to satisfy our lusts but when we get born again, our spirit man is transformed and the desire to sin disappears that's why you hear Paul saying:
"I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do....Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?" This clearly shows that the desire is totally changed but the flesh seems to be prevailing against his will. Sometimes you'll hear christians say "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak"
But when we rapture, we will take upon us a spirit body while our sinful body will be discarded (1Corinthians 15). At this point both the desire to sin and the source of temptation have been removed and hence it will be impossible to sin.

For Mr Dahmer or anyone else, the very same applies.

Mr anony:
The person should be immersed completely. The Greek word for it is baptizo which means to make fully wet.
In Colosians 2:12 Paul shows us that the batism involves fully submerging in water when he says

"....and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead....."



Ok


Nah, I only yawn when you bore me

You find it boring that you're unable to meet your own goals? I find that interesting.

Mr anony:
Lol, on the contrary, I think it is you who doesn't fully understand the meaning of freewill. Let me see if I can help you by explaining it thus.
If you are heterosexual i.e. you prefer sexual intercourse with women than men, and as a result only have sexual relations with women and never with men, does this mean you don't have freewill? No it doesn't. You simply don't have any homosexual desires. Now what if all men who would have been a source of temptation were removed and you now lived in a land full of women. Now you neither have the desire nor the object. How can you possibly engage in homosexual sex? Does this mean your free-will disappeared? Absolutely not.

Actually, according to the idea of free-will Christians generally use, a homosexual does have the freewill to become heterosexual.

Mr anony:
Now similarly sin is as a result of seeking to gratify the flesh. It is because we live in the flesh that we can be tempted. When we are not born again, our desires are to satisfy our lusts but when we get born again, our spirit man is transformed and the desire to sin disappears that's why you hear Paul saying:
"I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do....Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?" This clearly shows that the desire is totally changed but the flesh seems to be prevailing against his will. Sometimes you'll hear christians say "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak"
But when we rapture, we will take upon us a spirit body while our sinful body will be discarded (1Corinthians 15). At this point both the desire to sin and the source of temptation have been removed and hence it will be impossible to sin.

For Mr Dahmer or anyone else, the very same applies.

What you're saying here means that this process of transformation actually changes the person's will thus turning the person into a robot. Recall that according to you, the person first "freely" made the choice to become born-again. What you're later implying is that such a person cannot unmake that choice. If someone can "freely" choose something and while having an alternative cannot choose otherwise, then in what sense is such a person actually free?

thehomer:
You find it boring that you're unable to meet your own goals? I find that interesting.

No I find it boring that you keep harping on the same thing over and over without showing which goals it is that you'll like me to meet

Actually, according to the idea of free-will Christians generally use, a homosexual does have the freewill to become heterosexual.

That is not true. We say a person who is tempted by homosexuality has the freewill to resist the desire.

What you're saying here means that this process of transformation actually changes the person's will thus turning the person into a robot. Recall that according to you, the person first "freely" made the choice to become born-again. What you're later implying is that such a person cannot unmake that choice. If someone can "freely" choose something and while having an alternative cannot choose otherwise, then in what sense is such a person actually free?

No it doesn't transform the person into a robot it gives him new desires. He still makes his own choices. Unless you want to argue that a person doesn't have free-will in the first place because his preferences influence his choices.

Mr anony:
No I find it boring that you keep harping on the same thing over and over without showing which goals it is that you'll like me to meet

That is not true. We say a person who is tempted by homosexuality has the freewill to resist the desire.

So you're denying that people actually are homosexual. You're saying they only have the desire but are wrong to have it.

Mr anony:
No it doesn't transform the person into a robot it gives him new desires. He still makes his own choices. Unless you want to argue that a person doesn't have free-will in the first place because his preferences influence his choices.

Of course a people's preferences influence their choices. That is what you've just said. The thing is that if someone can choose to have the desires removed, they have to be able to choose to get those desires back with that same free will. If it doesn't turn the person into a robot, then whatever the new desires may be, they would be able to choose to get the old desires back.

thehomer:

So you're denying that people actually are homosexual. You're saying they only have the desire but are wrong to have it.

Temptation is not sin, commission is.

Of course a people's preferences influence their choices. That is what you've just said. The thing is that if someone can choose to have the desires removed, they have to be able to choose to get those desires back with that same free will. If it doesn't turn the person into a robot, then whatever the new desires may be, they would be able to choose to get the old desires back.

Not all choices are reversible surely you know that.

Mr anony: Temptation is not sin, commission is.

Not according to Jesus with his talk about adultery in the heart and not according to God with his command that people not covet.

Mr anony:
Not all choices are reversible surely you know that.

Once a choice is made, it isn't reversible. The person can then make another choice further down the decision tree. But the thing though is that if you know you can choose between A and B, then with your freewill, you can choose either A or B. If after choosing A, B is still available, then further down the path if you still have freewill, you can still choose B thereby making yet another choice.

thehomer: Not according to Jesus with his talk about adultery in the heart and not according to God with his command that people not covet.

But of course you can choose not to lust and not to covet, you can resist the urge and not indulge in it. People do it all the time. You can choose to think or not to think about a thing.

Once a choice is made, it isn't reversible. The person can then make another choice further down the decision tree. But the thing though is that if you know you can choose between A and B, then with your freewill, you can choose either A or B. If after choosing A, B is still available, then further down the path if you still have freewill, you can still choose B thereby making yet another choice.

...and if after choosing A, B is not available, have you lost your freewill?

Freewill is the ability to make choices it is not the ability to decide which choices will be available.

Interesting back and forth boys...
One question Anony, are you saying that some people are not homosexual? That in fact they made a choice to fall into the 'homosexual temptation'(Whatever that means)?

Silly question by the OP. He first of all list the atheist attributes and how an atheist does not consider the influence of a third, supernatural party in life's outcomes. All fine, until he asks the silly question: Why would there a need to be thankful to an entity that does not exist??

Mr Troll: Interesting back and forth boys...
One question Anony, are you saying that some people are not homosexual? That in fact they made a choice to fall into the 'homosexual temptation'(Whatever that means)?

I want to answer you, believe me I really do. But the only thing I'm allowed to say to you is this: Go and repent!

Mr anony:
I want to answer you, believe me I really do. But the only thing I'm allowed to say to you is this: Go and repent!

Pls don't take over my duties I'm the troll here, gerrit?

So in other words you got no answer?

Mr anony:
But of course you can choose not to lust and not to covet, you can resist the urge and not indulge in it. People do it all the time. You can choose to think or not to think about a thing.

Really? Okay. Don't think about an elephant.
Did you think about an elephant?

Mr anony:
...and if after choosing A, B is not available, have you lost your freewill?

Freewill is the ability to make choices it is not the ability to decide which choices will be available.

How will it not be available? As long as the person remembers how he was, then it will always be available.

thehomer:
Really? Okay. Don't think about an elephant.
Did you think about an elephant?

Lol, nice try. You and I know that there is an obvious difference between a thought flashing into a person's mind and a person consciously engaging in a thought. You cannot be punished for a sin that was not consciously commited. That's the point of having free-will and being accountable for it.

How will it not be available? As long as the person remembers how he was, then it will always be available.

How did you arrive a this conclusion? Remember that not only is the desire changed, the object of the desire as well as the cause of the desire (i.e. the flesh) also don't exist anymore.

Mr anony:
Lol, nice try. You and I know that there is an obvious difference between a thought flashing into a person's mind and a person consciously engaging in a thought. You cannot be punished for a sin that was not consciously commited. That's the point of having free-will and being accountable for it.

So the lustful thought just flashing through one's mind or the covetous thought just flashing through one's mind is okay.

Mr anony:
How did you arrive a this conclusion? Remember that not only is the desire changed, the object of the desire as well as the cause of the desire (i.e. the flesh) also don't exist anymore.

I arrived at it on the basis that the person remembers how they were on earth. Even if the desire has changed, if the person has free-will, then the person can still choose to do something that isn't consonant with their desire. They may not like it but they can still choose to do it.

thehomer:

So the lustful thought just flashing through one's mind or the covetous thought just flashing through one's mind is okay.

I wouldn't call that sin. It is an unconscious thought in the same way it is not a sin at all if someone shot me in the head while sleepwalking because it is an unconscious action.

I arrived at it on the basis that the person remembers how they were on earth. Even if the desire has changed, if the person has free-will, then the person can still choose to do something that isn't consonant with their desire. They may not like it but they can still choose to do it.

True but the point is that we sin in order to gratify the flesh. Without the flesh, it is impossible to sin. For instance a person steals, fornicates, is greedy, is selfish, is a drunkard e.t.c. because he wants to gratify the flesh. When the rapture happens, the flesh will be discarded and replaced with a new Spiritual body which the Lord will give to us. Now not only will our desire be to serve God, we will also no longer have any flesh to gratify. For instance:
How can one be greedy or steal or cheat in heaven when not only does he not have the desire, God's resources are truly limitless?
How can one kill or maim anyone when we have life eternal and there is no desire to do so?
How can one lust carnally in heaven when not only do we not have the desire, the body that would have derived pleasure from such has been discarded?

Sorry thehomer, I can't see whatever it is you are seeing.

Mr anony: I wouldn't call that sin. It is an unconscious thought in the same way it is not a sin at all if someone shot me in the head while sleepwalking because it is an unconscious action.

Sure you won't call it a sin but then, you're not the judge.

Mr anony:
True but the point is that we sin in order to gratify the flesh. Without the flesh, it is impossible to sin. For instance a person steals, fornicates, is greedy, is selfish, is a drunkard e.t.c. because he wants to gratify the flesh.

Yes that is the idea you're operating under but for what reason does the devil sin? For what reason do the demons sin? They don't have any flesh to satisfy either.

Mr anony:
When the rapture happens, the flesh will be discarded and replaced with a new Spiritual body which the Lord will give to us. Now not only will our desire be to serve God, we will also no longer have any flesh to gratify. For instance:
How can one be greedy or steal or cheat in heaven when not only does he not have the desire, God's resources are truly limitless?
How can one kill or maim anyone when we have life eternal and there is no desire to do so?
How can one lust carnally in heaven when not only do we not have the desire, the body that would have derived pleasure from such has been discarded?

Sorry thehomer, I can't see whatever it is you are seeing.

You're still missing the point. Can Mr. Dahmer who remembers how he lived on earth say you know what God, I'm here in heaven now and although I feel like worshiping you (I'm granting your idea that his desires themselves have been magically transformed not that I actually accept it), I will not be worshiping you. I would be out on the banks of the river looking at unicorns and beautiful women.

thehomer: Sure you won't call it a sin but then, you're not the judge.

but the bible also wouldn't call it sin. For a thing to be sin, it has to be committed. Sin does not happen to people. People actually do commit sin

Yes that is the idea you're operating under but for what reason does the devil sin? For what reason do the demons sin? They don't have any flesh to satisfy either.

I've answered this here

You're still missing the point. Can Mr. Dahmer who remembers how he lived on earth say you know what God, I'm here in heaven now and although I feel like worshiping you (I'm granting your idea that his desires themselves have been magically transformed not that I actually accept it), I will not be worshiping you. I would be out on the banks of the river looking at unicorns and beautiful women.

You are the one missing the point

Can Mr. Dahmer who remembers how he lived on earth say "you know what God, I'm here in heaven now and although my greatest desire is and what my life is all about is to glorify you, I will not be glorifying you?

The remaining part stems from your false assumption that worship is an action instead of a state of being in devotion to God which it is. Second is your false assumption that looking at beautiful women does not glorify God. . . .and finally I don't know from which bible you read that unicorns will be floating around in Heaven.

Mr anony:
but the bible also wouldn't call it sin. For a thing to be sin, it has to be committed. Sin does not happen to people. People actually do commit sin

The Bible already says having certain thoughts is a sin you on the other hand are just attaching conditions to make yourself feel good.

Mr anony:
I've answered this here

No that doesn't answer the question. I'm saying the devil and those other angels didn't even have any flesh at all yet they rebelled.

Mr anony:
You are the one missing the point

Can Mr. Dahmer who remembers how he lived on earth say "you know what God, I'm here in heaven now and although my greatest desire is and what my life is all about is to glorify you, I will not be glorifying you?

That's just it. As far as I can see, he can in fact say that since we know that those angels whose greatest desires was initially to glorify God decided not to do so.

Mr anony:
The remaining part stems from your false assumption that worship is an action instead of a state of being in devotion to God which it is. Second is your false assumption that looking at beautiful women does not glorify God. . . .and finally I don't know from which bible you read that unicorns will be floating around in Heaven.

So worship is no longer an action? What about all the chanting of Hallelujah? Now hanging out looking at beautiful women glorifies God? Well bring on the beauty pageants. Mr anony says its all okay now. You do know that the Bible refers to unicorns and dragons. Would you prefer it if I replaced unicorn with dragon?

thehomer:
The Bible already says having certain thoughts is a sin you on the other hand are just attaching conditions to make yourself feel good.

Lol, you are just clutching for straws here. I have made myself clear.

No that doesn't answer the question. I'm saying the devil and those other angels didn't even have any flesh at all yet they rebelled.

That's just it. As far as I can see, he can in fact say that since we know that those angels whose greatest desires was initially to glorify God decided not to do so.

Go and read my answer again. Also read the article I linked.

So worship is no longer an action? What about all the chanting of Hallelujah? Now hanging out looking at beautiful women glorifies God? Well bring on the beauty pageants. Mr anony says its all okay now. You do know that the Bible refers to unicorns and dragons. Would you prefer it if I replaced unicorn with dragon?

Still clutching straws are we? Worship like Love is not an action, it is a state of being. I can be chanting Halleluyah and yet not be worshiping just like I can be singing a love song and yet not be loving.
Secondly: In what way is looking at beautiful women a sin?
And thirdly: Not only dragons, if you like talk about hobbits and elves you would still have to show from the bible where you saw that they will be in Heaven with the saints of God