[Quran 53:19]
Have you then considered the Lat and the Uzza,

[Quran 53:20]
And Manat, the third, the last?

[Quran 53:21]
What! for you the males and for Him the females!

[Quran 53:22]
This indeed is an unjust division!

[Quran 53:23]
They are naught but names which you have named, you and your fathers; Allah has not sent for them any authority. They follow naught but conjecture and the low desires which (their) souls incline to; and certainly the guidance has come to them from their Lord.

Lat, Uzzra and Manat are all known idols among Arabs.Why would Allah reconcile them and removing the division among them? When did God start to have relationship with idols? What is Allah and Islam about?

pointblank 321: [Quran 53:19]
Have you then considered the Lat and the Uzza,

[Quran 53:20]
And Manat, the third, the last?

[Quran 53:21]
What! for you the males and for Him the females!

[Quran 53:22]
This indeed is an unjust division!

[Quran 53:23]
They are naught but names which you have named, you and your fathers; Allah has not sent for them any authority. They follow naught but conjecture and the low desires which (their) souls incline to; and certainly the guidance has come to them from their Lord.

Lat, Uzzra and Manat are all known idols among Arabs.Why would Allah reconcile them and removing the division among them? When did God start to have relationship with idols? What is Allah and Islam about?

Lat, Uzza, and Manat are mentioned in the Quran, but in what context? Pointblack321 wants to give the false impression that just because they are named in the Quran then they have some legitimacy and that we should worship these idols. Let us see what the Quran says concerning these pagan idols


053.021
YUSUFALI: What! for you the male sex, and for Him, the female?

053.022
YUSUFALI: Behold, such would be indeed a division most unfair!

053.023
YUSUFALI: These are nothing but names which ye have devised,- YE AND YOUR FATHERS,- FOR WHICH ALLAH HAS SENT DOWN NO AUTHORITY (whatever). THEY FOLLOW NOTHING BUT CONJECTURE and what their own souls desire!- Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord!

Don't you see that Allah exposes them making such a lie! Allah tells them that they the pagans have invented these false idols, and that it is something corrupt.

In fact I will not hold the Christians responsible for such deceit, but I will hold the holy spirit responsible. Christians claim the holy spirit inspires them, if that is true then the holy spirit is inspiring them to be untruthful, and to be distorters of truth, and to try and make up a lie. And such actions cannot be coming from a holy being, rather such action is inspired by someone called Iblis, who is shaytan, because only shaytan inspires people to make a lie against Allah and his Noble Quran.

cleanvessel:

When we say islam has to do with idol worship, they say it is a lie. The three idols mentioned here were in the same centre with black stone in Kabah. I am sure Allah is in love with the three of them and that was why he was settling the dispute among them.

Tell me, what is the true God's business seeking unity among idols? I believe islam is a sister religion to the idol worship, hence Allah's intervention to reconcile them.

As no muslim could defend it, this is why the unusual silence. No surprise if this thread is deleted because muslims cannot tolerate exposure of islamic secrets, it is offensive:

O ye who believe! Ask not of things which, if they were made known unto you, would trouble you......
(Quran 5:101)

A folk before you asked for such disclosure and then disbelieved therein.
(Quran 5:102)

Lat, Uzza, and Manat are mentioned in the Quran, but in what context? cleanvessel wants to give the false impression that just because they are named in the Quran then they have some legitimacy and that we should worship these idols. Let us see what the Quran says concerning these pagan idols


053.021
YUSUFALI: What! for you the male sex, and for Him, the female?

053.022
YUSUFALI: Behold, such would be indeed a division most unfair!

053.023
YUSUFALI: These are nothing but names which ye have devised,- YE AND YOUR FATHERS,- FOR WHICH ALLAH HAS SENT DOWN NO AUTHORITY (whatever). THEY FOLLOW NOTHING BUT CONJECTURE and what their own souls desire!- Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord!

Don't you see that Allah exposes them making such a lie! Allah tells them that they the pagans have invented these false idols, and that it is something corrupt.

In fact I will not hold the Christians responsible for such deceit, but I will hold the holy spirit responsible. Christians claim the holy spirit inspires them, if that is true then the holy spirit is inspiring them to be untruthful, and to be distorters of truth, and to try and make up a lie. And such actions cannot be coming from a holy being, rather such action is inspired by someone called Iblis, who is shaytan, because only shaytan inspires people to make a lie against Allah and his Noble Quran.

@ ayenny02

What you have said is still confirming the essence of the thread.

1. There is no denying the fact that there was a reconciliatory move by Allah to unite the three idols. ''....an unfair divisions.''

2''.......Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord''

Questions:

- Guidance has already come to them: who is them?

- Guidance from their Lord: whose Lord?

Meaning: Guidance has already come to the three idol worshipers from their Lord - Allah.

It shows Allah is the Lord of the idols's worshipers who were not muslims. So Allah is both the Lord of the muslims and the idols or idolaters.

There is a relationship between muslims and the idol worshipers because they have a common Lord - Allah.

Your response has made no difference. It is a pity, many of you muslims are ignorant of the implications of your religion. You strongly believe you are serving the true God and that is why many can die for Allah. May God open your spiritual eyes.

cleanvessel: @ ayenny02

What you have said is still confirming the essence of the thread.

1. There is no denying the fact that there was a reconciliatory move by Allah to unite the three idols. ''....an unfair divisions.''

2''.......Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord''

Questions:

- Guidance has already come to them: who is them?

- Guidance from their Lord: whose Lord?

Meaning: Guidance has already come to the three idol worshipers from their Lord - Allah.

It shows Allah is the Lord of the idols's worshipers who were not muslims. So Allah is both the Lord of the muslims and the idols or idolaters.

There is a relationship between muslims and the idol worshipers because they have a common Lord - Allah.

Your response has made no difference. It is a pity, many of you muslims are ignorant of the implications of your religion. You strongly believe you are serving the true God and that is why many can die for Allah. May God open your spiritual eyes.

THEY FOLLOW
NOTHING BUT CONJECTURE and what their own souls
desire!- Even though there has already come to them
Guidance from their Lord![/b]Who is [b]THEY referring to? The arab pagans,Allah said the arab pagans follow nothing but conjecture by worshipping the three idols even though prophet muhammed(pbuh) has come to them with guidance from Allah.Is it hard to comprehend?.....Peace

lanrexlan: THEY FOLLOW
NOTHING BUT CONJECTURE and what their own souls
desire!- Even though there has already come to them
Guidance from their Lord![/b]Who is [b]THEY referring to? The arab pagans,Allah said the arab pagans follow nothing but conjecture by worshipping the three idols even though prophet muhammed(pbuh) has come to them with guidance from Allah.Is it hard to comprehend?.....Peace

What was the reason for Allah reconciling the three idols?

lanrexlan: THEY FOLLOW
NOTHING BUT CONJECTURE and what their own souls
desire!- Even though there has already come to them
Guidance from their Lord![/b]Who is [b]THEY referring to? The arab pagans,Allah said the arab pagans follow nothing but conjecture by worshipping the three idols even though prophet muhammed(pbuh) has come to them with guidance from Allah.Is it hard to comprehend?.....Peace

Allah said the divisions among the idols were UNFAIR. Why was Allah reconciling them together?

What was Allah's business in the dispute happening among idols?

lanrexlan: THEY FOLLOW
NOTHING BUT CONJECTURE and what their own souls
desire!- Even though there has already come to them
Guidance from their Lord![/b]Who is [b]THEY referring to? The arab pagans,Allah said the arab pagans follow nothing but conjecture by worshipping the three idols even though prophet muhammed(pbuh) has come to them with guidance from Allah.Is it hard to comprehend?.....Peace

Allah said the divisions among the idols were UNFAIR. Why was Allah reconciling them together?

What was Allah's business in the dispute happening among idols?

Thank you.

cleanvessel:

Allah said the divisions among the idols were UNFAIR. Why was Allah reconciling them together?

What was Allah's business in the dispute happening among idols?

Thank you.

Refuting the Idolators Who appoint Rivals to Allah and claim that the Angels were Females
,Allah the Exalted said,
ﺃَﻓَﺮَﺃَﻳْﺘُﻢُ ﺍﻟﻠَّﺎﺕَ ﺍﻟﻠَّﺎﺕَ ﻭَﺍﻟْﻌُﺰَّﻯ
ﻭَﻣَﻨَﺎﺓَ ﺍﻟﺜَّﺎﻟِﺜَﺔَ ﺍﻟْﺄُﺧْﺮَﻯ
﴿٢٠
Have you then considered Al-Lat, and Al-`Uzza.And Manat, the
other third,then Allah said,
ﺃَﻟَﻜُﻢُ ﺍﻟﺬَّﻛَﺮُ ﻭَﻟَﻪُ ﺍﻟْﺄُﻧﺜَﻰ
﴿٢١﴾
Is it for you the males and for Him the females?
Allah asked the idolators,do you choose female offspring for Allah and give preference to yourselves with the males If you made this division between yourselves and the created,it would
be,ﺗِﻠْﻚَ ﺇِﺫًﺍ ﻗِﺴْﻤَﺔٌ ﺿِﻴﺰَﻯ
﴿٢٢﴾
a division most unfair!meaning,it would be an unfair and unjust division.How is it then that you make this division between you and Allah,even though this `How is it then
that you make this division between you and Allah,even though
this would be foolish and unjust,if you made it between
yourselves and others?'
Allah the Exalted refutes such innovated lies,falsehood and
atheism they invented through worshipping the idols and calling
them gods,
ﺇِﻥْ ﻫِﻲَ ﺇِﻟَّﺎ ﺃَﺳْﻤَﺎﺀ ﺳَﻤَّﻴْﺘُﻤُﻮﻫَﺎ ﺃَﻧﺘُﻢْ ﻭَﺁﺑَﺎﺅُﻛُﻢ ...
They are but names which you have named -- you and your
fathers,(of your own desire),
... ﻣَّﺎ ﺃَﻧﺰَﻝَ ﺍﻟﻠَّﻪُ ﺑِﻬَﺎ ﻣِﻦ ﺳُﻠْﻄَﺎﻥٍ ...
for which Allah has sent down no authority.
meaning,proof,
... ﺇِﻥ ﻳَﺘَّﺒِﻌُﻮﻥَ ﺇِﻟَّﺎ ﺍﻟﻈَّﻦَّ ﻭَﻣَﺎ ﺗَﻬْﻮَﻯ ﺍﻟْﺄَﻧﻔُﺲُ ...
They follow but a guess and that which they themselves desire,
they have no proof, except their trust in their forefathers who took
this false path in the past, as well as, their lusts and desires to
become leaders, and thereby gain honor and reverence for their
forefathers,
...
ﻭَﻟَﻘَﺪْ ﺟَﺎﺀﻫُﻢ ﻣِّﻦ ﺭَّﺑِّﻬِﻢُ ﺍﻟْﻬُﺪَﻯ
﴿٢٣﴾

lanrexlan: Refuting the Idolators Who appoint Rivals to Allah and claim that the Angels were Females
,Allah the Exalted said,
ﺃَﻓَﺮَﺃَﻳْﺘُﻢُ ﺍﻟﻠَّﺎﺕَ ﺍﻟﻠَّﺎﺕَ ﻭَﺍﻟْﻌُﺰَّﻯ
ﻭَﻣَﻨَﺎﺓَ ﺍﻟﺜَّﺎﻟِﺜَﺔَ ﺍﻟْﺄُﺧْﺮَﻯ
﴿٢٠
Have you then considered Al-Lat, and Al-`Uzza.And Manat, the
other third,then Allah said,
ﺃَﻟَﻜُﻢُ ﺍﻟﺬَّﻛَﺮُ ﻭَﻟَﻪُ ﺍﻟْﺄُﻧﺜَﻰ
﴿٢١﴾
Is it for you the males and for Him the females?
Allah asked the idolators,do you choose female offspring for Allah and give preference to yourselves with the males If you made this division between yourselves and the created,it would
be,ﺗِﻠْﻚَ ﺇِﺫًﺍ ﻗِﺴْﻤَﺔٌ ﺿِﻴﺰَﻯ
﴿٢٢﴾
a division most unfair!meaning,it would be an unfair and unjust division.How is it then that you make this division between you and Allah,even though this `How is it then
that you make this division between you and Allah,even though
this would be foolish and unjust,if you made it between
yourselves and others?'
Allah the Exalted refutes such innovated lies,falsehood and
atheism they invented through worshipping the idols and calling
them gods,
ﺇِﻥْ ﻫِﻲَ ﺇِﻟَّﺎ ﺃَﺳْﻤَﺎﺀ ﺳَﻤَّﻴْﺘُﻤُﻮﻫَﺎ ﺃَﻧﺘُﻢْ ﻭَﺁﺑَﺎﺅُﻛُﻢ ...
They are but names which you have named -- you and your
fathers,(of your own desire),
... ﻣَّﺎ ﺃَﻧﺰَﻝَ ﺍﻟﻠَّﻪُ ﺑِﻬَﺎ ﻣِﻦ ﺳُﻠْﻄَﺎﻥٍ ...
for which Allah has sent down no authority.
meaning,proof,
... ﺇِﻥ ﻳَﺘَّﺒِﻌُﻮﻥَ ﺇِﻟَّﺎ ﺍﻟﻈَّﻦَّ ﻭَﻣَﺎ ﺗَﻬْﻮَﻯ ﺍﻟْﺄَﻧﻔُﺲُ ...
They follow but a guess and that which they themselves desire,
they have no proof, except their trust in their forefathers who took
this false path in the past, as well as, their lusts and desires to
become leaders, and thereby gain honor and reverence for their
forefathers,
...
ﻭَﻟَﻘَﺪْ ﺟَﺎﺀﻫُﻢ ﻣِّﻦ ﺭَّﺑِّﻬِﻢُ ﺍﻟْﻬُﺪَﻯ
﴿٢٣﴾

You have tried so hard to refute the allegations that islam has something to do with idols. But unfortunately, the so many evidences available still point to the fact that the allegations are true:

1. TAWAF BETWEEN SAFA AND MARWA

Doing Tawaf between Safa and Marwa is an Islamic ritual associated with the pilgrimage to Mecca. Safa and Marwa are two mounts, located at Mecca. This ritual entails Muslims walking frantically between the two mounts, seven times. This was originally a pagan pre-Islamic practice. Muhammad retained it for Islam, sanctioning it with yet another Qur'anic revelations.

Narrated 'Asim: I asked Anas bin Malik: "Did you use to dislike to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?" He said, "Yes, AS IT WAS THE CEREMONIES OF THE DAYS OF PRE-ISLAMIC PERIOD OF IGNORANCE TILL ALLAH REVEALED 'Verily! (The two mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who performs the pilgrimage to the Ka'ba, or performs 'Umra, to perform Tawaf between them.' " (Quran 2.158)
(Sahih Bukhari 2:26:710)

You can see for yourself from the above hadith that what was being practiced by idol worshipers before islam was incorporated into it. I mean islam continues with the ways of idol worshipers.


2. REQUIREMENT OF IHRAM

Ihram is a state a Muslim enters into for his pilgrimage to Mecca. It involves a series of procedures like ritual washing, wearing 'Ihram garments', etc. Ihram was originally a pagan requirement for worshipping idols during pre-Islamic times. Muhammad retained this practice for Islam. Muslims assume Ihram to perform the Hajj or Umrah.

Narrated 'Urwa: I asked 'Aisha : ...But in fact, this divine inspiration was revealed concerning the Ansar who used to assume “Ihram” for worshipping an idol called “Manat” which they used to worship at a place called Al-Mushallal before they embraced Islam, and whoever assumed Ihram (for the idol), would consider it not right to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa.
(Sahih Bukhari 2:26:706)

They continued their pagan ways of worship even when they embraced islam.

3. PRAYING 5 TIMES TOWARDS MECCA

Pagans prior to Islam would pray five times per day towards Mecca. Muhammad retained for Islam, this pre-Islamic practice, sanctioning it with a story of a night trip to heaven on a mythical beast called al-Buraq. In heaven, the Hadith tells us that Allah demanded 50 prayers per day per Muslim. Upon advice from Moses, Muhammed bargains with Allah and successfully reduces it to five prayers per day.

Zoroastrians are also expected to recite their (kusti) prayers at least five times a day having first cleansed themselves by washing (ablution). So even today, this is not a practice unique to Islam. But, contrary to the Muslims, they pray in the direction of the Sun (at each time of the day) and/or of the Holy Fire (if they are in a Fire Temple).

With above clear evidences, it is so glaring that islam has so much to do with the practice of idol worshipers. Note that it is one thing to say something it is another to do otherwise. Muslims claim to serve one God, but is God serviced the same way as idols? Why was the practices of idolaters adopted into islam? Would God have revealed His words to embrace idol worship? Let us all be truthful to ourselves. Seeing the truth and looking away from it is self-deception.

Thank you.

cleanvessel:

You have tried so hard to refute the allegations that islam has something to do with idols. But unfortunately, the so many evidences available still point to the fact that the allegations are true:

Do you accept the first one I explained?

1. TAWAF BETWEEN SAFA AND MARWA

Doing Tawaf between Safa and Marwa is an Islamic ritual associated with the pilgrimage to Mecca. Safa and Marwa are two mounts, located at Mecca. This ritual entails Muslims walking frantically between the two mounts, seven times. This was originally a pagan pre-Islamic practice. Muhammad retained it for Islam, sanctioning it with yet another Qur'anic revelations.

Narrated 'Asim: I asked Anas bin Malik: "Did you use to dislike to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?" He said, "Yes, AS IT WAS THE CEREMONIES OF THE DAYS OF PRE-ISLAMIC PERIOD OF IGNORANCE TILL ALLAH REVEALED 'Verily! (The two mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who performs the pilgrimage to the Ka'ba, or performs 'Umra, to perform Tawaf between them.' " (Quran 2.158)
(Sahih Bukhari 2:26:710)

You can see for yourself from the above hadith that what was being practiced by idol worshipers before islam was incorporated into it. I mean islam continues with the ways of idol worshipers.

The first thing you got wrong about Safar and Marwar is that muslims go round it seven times because the mother of prophet Ismael(pbuh) did that when Abraham(pbuh) settled them down in Makkah.Ismael(pbuh) was thirsty and his mother Hajar was looking for water for him,unfortunately she found none.She ran to mount Safar to see maybe someone is coming or a caravan is coming,she found nothing,she went to the side of mount
Marwar also and search for people that will help them with water,she found nobody.She did this[running between safar and marwar] seven times and that's what gives birth to what muslims did by go round safar and marwar in order to commemorate Hajar for what she did.The idol worshippers may also do tawaf but we muslims aren't doing it because they did or Islam copied them,it's for Hajar,Ismael(pbuh)'s mother.

2. REQUIREMENT OF IHRAM

Ihram is a state a Muslim enters into for his pilgrimage to Mecca. It involves a series of procedures like ritual washing, wearing 'Ihram garments', etc. Ihram was originally a pagan requirement for worshipping idols during pre-Islamic times. Muhammad retained this practice for Islam. Muslims assume Ihram to perform the Hajj or Umrah.

Narrated 'Urwa: I asked 'Aisha : ...But in fact, this divine inspiration was revealed concerning the Ansar who used to assume “Ihram” for worshipping an idol called “Manat” which they used to worship at a place called Al-Mushallal before they embraced Islam, and whoever assumed Ihram (for the idol), would consider it not right to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa.
(Sahih Bukhari 2:26:706)

They continued their pagan ways of worship even when they embraced islam.

The word "Ihram" is used in the Quran in close relation to the "Shahr Al-Haram"(the sacred months).These are clearly defined as being four months, during which Hajj may be observed. However,when Muslims observe their Umrah anytime during the year,they still get into a state of Ihram and the men wear the Hajj garments!Wearing garments also pagan acts??

3. PRAYING 5 TIMES TOWARDS MECCA

Pagans prior to Islam would pray five times per day towards Mecca. Muhammad retained for Islam, this pre-Islamic practice, sanctioning it with a story of a night trip to heaven on a mythical beast called al-Buraq. In heaven, the Hadith tells us that Allah demanded 50 prayers per day per Muslim. Upon advice from Moses, Muhammed bargains with Allah and successfully reduces it to five prayers per day.

Zoroastrians are also expected to recite their (kusti) prayers at least five times a day having first cleansed themselves by washing (ablution). So even today, this is not a practice unique to Islam. But, contrary to the Muslims, they pray in the direction of the Sun (at each time of the day) and/or of the Holy Fire (if they are in a Fire Temple).

You said the pagans are facing the kabba when they do pray.Point number one to be noted is that muslims don't face the kabba before,they face Masjid Aqsa in Jerusalem,this serve as the Qiblah before.Allah said in the glorious Quran in surah Al-baqarah 2;144-''The fools among the people will say;What has turned them from their Qiblah to which they used to face in prayer.Say;To Allah belong both the east and the west,He guides whom he wills to a straight way''.
Then Allah said in the next verse that they should turn their faces towards Masjid Al-Haram in makkah.So it's a command from Allah and not a pagan practise as you claim.About 5 times prayer,Allah talked about prophet muhammed(pbuh)'s night journey in surah Al-Isra 17;1.

With above clear evidences, it is so glaring that islam has so much to do with the practice of idol worshipers. Note that it is one thing to say something it is another to do otherwise. Muslims claim to serve one God, but is God serviced the same way as idols? Why was the practices of idolaters adopted into islam? Would God have revealed His words to embrace idol worship? Let us all be truthful to ourselves. Seeing the truth and looking away from it is self-deception.

Thank you.

Islam forbids all forms of idol worship......Peace

lanrexlan: Do you accept the first one I explained?

The first thing you got wrong about Safar and Marwar is that muslims go round it seven times because the mother of prophet Ismael(pbuh) did that when Abraham(pbuh) settled them down in Makkah.Ismael(pbuh) was thirsty and his mother Hajar was looking for water for him,unfortunately she found none.She ran to mount Safar to see maybe someone is coming or a caravan is coming,she found nothing,she went to the side of mount
Marwar also and search for people that will help them with water,she found nobody.She did this[running between safar and marwar] seven times and that's what gives birth to what muslims did by go round safar and marwar in order to commemorate Hajar for what she did.The idol worshippers may also do tawaf but we muslims aren't doing it because they did or Islam copied them,it's for Hajar,Ismael(pbuh)'s mother.



The word "Ihram" is used in the Quran in close relation to the "Shahr Al-Haram"(the sacred months).These are clearly defined as being four months, during which Hajj may be observed. However,when Muslims observe their Umrah anytime during the year,they still get into a state of Ihram and the men wear the Hajj garments!Wearing garments also pagan acts??

You said the pagans are facing the kabba when they do pray.Point number one to be noted is that muslims don't face the kabba before,they face Masjid Aqsa in Jerusalem,this serve as the Qiblah before.Allah said in the glorious Quran in surah Al-baqarah 2;144-''The fools among the people will say;What has turned them from their Qiblah to which they used to face in prayer.Say;To Allah belong both the east and the west,He guides whom he wills to a straight way''.
Then Allah said in the next verse that they should turn their faces towards Masjid Al-Haram in makkah.So it's a command from Allah and not a pagan practise as you claim.About 5 times prayer,Allah talked about prophet muhammed(pbuh)'s night journey in surah Al-Isra 17;1.

Islam forbids all forms of idol worship......Peace

This is not a defence. You saw clearly in my post above from your islamic authority how Muhammad copied the worship of idols and yet you said islam forbids all forms of idol worship. Your saying is different from your action. You cannot deceive God.

The fact remains that everything you do to worship Allah is what idol worshipers do to worship their own idols too. Yes or No.Therefore there is a relationship between islam and idolatery. Your explanations did not cancel this fact. Besides your stories have no authority backing them. They are formulated by you.

The questions you should ask yourself are: Can God be worshiped the same way as people worship idols? Why this resemblance?

cleanvessel:


This is not a defence. You saw clearly in my post above from your islamic authority how Muhammad copied the worship of idols and yet you said islam forbids all forms of idol worship. Your saying is different from your action. You cannot deceive God.

The fact remains that everything you do to worship Allah is what idol worshipers do to worship their own idols too. Yes or No.Therefore there is a relationship between islam and idolatery. Your explanations did not cancel this fact. Besides your stories have no authority backing them. They are formulated by you.

The questions you should ask yourself are: Can God be worshiped the same way as people worship idols? Why this resemblance?

No need explaining anything to you again,it seems you aren't here to learn.Just to argue and I can't argue with people like you,I explained something to you and you can't comprehend,saying rubbish.Everything I wrote had backings and there's no need giving it to you,Islam forbids idol worship and it's not a must you accept.....Peace

@ lanrexlan

Islam forbids idol worship but worship Allah the same way idol worshipers worship their idols. What an irony? There is no way you can worship the true God acceptably in the same manner idols are worshiped. God and idols are not worshiped the same manner. May God remove the veil of satanic deception from your face. Amen.

@cleanvessel: could you tell us how the true God said He should be worshiped since you know? please give us every detail for our weekly need and provide us the name of the book of God and or names of the book of the prophet and the prophet. we need our weekly worship guide, every bit of it, please. dont give us anything except what God said or what the prophet said He said. we need to read them or it to be sure that you are not just playing us since our eternity depends on the truth.

RoyPCain: @cleanvessel: could you tell us how the true God said He should be worshiped since you know? please give us every detail for our weekly need and provide us the name of the book of God and or names of the book of the prophet and the prophet. we need our weekly worship guide, every bit of it, please. dont give us anything except what God said or what the prophet said He said. we need to read them or it to be sure that you are not just playing us since our eternity depends on the truth.

By this statement of yours, it implies you have seen that islam follows the way of idolaters and you now want the true way.

Jesus said I am the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE, nobody can come unto the Father but by me (John 14:6).

If you accept that, I will tell you the rest. Thank you.

cleanvessel: @ lanrexlan

Islam forbids idol worship but worship Allah the same way idol worshipers worship their idols. What an irony? There is no way you can worship the true God acceptably in the same manner idols are worshiped. God and idols are not worshiped the same manner. May God remove the veil of satanic deception from your face. Amen.

Similarities between Christianity and paganism
*Followers of both religions celebrated a ritual meal involving bread.It was called a missa in Latin or mass in English.
*Both the Catholic church and Mithraism had a total of seven sacraments.Epiphany, JAN-6,was originally the festival in which the followers of Mithra celebrated the visit of the Magi to their newborn god-man.The Christian Church took it over in the 9th century.There are many possible explanations of the similarities between earlier Pagan and later rebranded to Christian beliefs,practices and the lives of their god-men Christians copied Pagans: This is perhaps the most obvious theory. Celsus was a Platonist and polemical writer against Christianity who lived in the late 2nd century CE According to Tony Bushby, he"complained that this recent religion [of Christianity}was only a pale reflection" of Pagan belief.Some festivals of Christianity like christmas also has a pagan beginning.

cleanvessel:

By this statement of yours, it implies you have seen that islam follows the way of idolaters and you now want the true way.

Jesus said I am the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE, nobody can come unto the Father but by me (John 14:6).

If you accept that, I will tell you the rest. Thank you.

Gospel of Matthew 15;24-''But he answered and said;I was not sent except to the house of the lost sheep of Israel''.
Jesus is the way,life and truth to the people he was sent to.....Peace

@ lanrexlan

Don't be deceived by satan's lies. Breaking of bread is called the Lord's super or Holy Communion. Jesus commanded we should be doing it in remembrance of Him and he did it first (Mat. 26:26-28).

If any pagans did such, they copied it from the Christians and not the opposite.

Jesus is not sent to Isreal alone. God has timing. When he made the statement in Matthew 15:24, it was not yet the time for the Gentiles.

Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore and teach all NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

The above command was given by Jesus Himself after his resurrection. The time for the Gentiles began from there.

I'm sure you know all these but want to mislead the ignorant. Some people are bent to serve satan knowing and directly how much more serving him indirectly, which you are doing. May God forgive you.

lanrexlan: Similarities between Christianity and paganism
*Followers of both religions celebrated a ritual meal involving bread.It was called a missa in Latin or mass in English.
*Both the Catholic church and Mithraism had a total of seven sacraments.Epiphany, JAN-6,was originally the festival in which the followers of Mithra celebrated the visit of the Magi to their newborn god-man.The Christian Church took it over in the 9th century.There are many possible explanations of the similarities between earlier Pagan and later rebranded to Christian beliefs,practices and the lives of their god-men Christians copied Pagans: This is perhaps the most obvious theory. Celsus was a Platonist and polemical writer against Christianity who lived in the late 2nd century CE According to Tony Bushby, he"complained that this recent religion [of Christianity}was only a pale reflection" of Pagan belief.Some festivals of Christianity like christmas also has a pagan beginning.

try again wiseman,
Jesus did not copy bread eating froom pagans, as a matter of fact. jesus grew up among jews a very religous group of Human beings. so there was no contact between Jesus and pagans oops

by the way do you eat bread, uhm are you thinking what i am thinking.

those guys brught up what Muhammad ffoounder of Islam allowed from pagan. you can do yourself the favor and tow their line, get what Jesus allowed from pagan worship. oops. and not what followers catholics and the rest brought up after Jesus ministry. oops

by the way i would like to advise you to explain why it is important that Allah must be worshipped the same way as idols are. because it baffles non musims why a true God will ask his followers to worship him in the way Pagans worshipped their idols, why a true God would ask his followers would ask his follwers to use a house used to serve idols for him. me thinks, it seems those pagans were getting it right in their worship of idols, so in the end idol worship may not be wrong to Allah after all. if Allah sees nothing wrong in their mode and place of worship. oops

Salaam aleikun

@cleanvessel: 11:00pm On Jun 16

RoyPCain: @cleanvessel: could you tell us how the true God said He should be worshiped since you know? please give us every detail for our weekly need and provide us the name of the book of God and or names of the book of the prophet and the prophet. we need our weekly worship guide, every bit of it, please. dont give us anything except what God said or what the prophet said He said. we need to read them or it to be sure that you are not just playing us since our eternity depends on the truth.


By this statement of yours, it implies you have seen that islam follows the way of idolaters and you now want the true way.

Jesus said I am the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE, nobody can come unto the Father but by me (John 14:6).

If you accept that, I will tell you the rest. Thank you.



I have not seen anything that suggest that Islam follows the way of Idolaters. I ask you because you say there is a way and I do not know a universally accepted way, except how muslims in Monotheism do worship. The jews do not have a common process of worship. there are differences between ultra orthodox groups, then the general conservatives, then the reforms, then the liberals. some jews worship as jews and eat processed pork; like canadian bacon, I have seen them and i will not accept food from them because they will be glad to feed me swine.

you know about the christians. there is no standard worship or a universally accept day.

Islam is different though we have our renegades. no muslim will tell you Jumu'ah prayer is not important unless he already left Islam. no muslim will tell you you dont have to make intention and make wuduh, enter salah, recite Quran, make bowing, make prostration, etc and say he is an observing muslim. I ask you the question with clear knowledge that you will fail as you have just done here. Show me the ordered prayer from the manual of Jehovah and give me the name of the book and which prophet did Jehovah give the book? this was my question and what you gave can only means an answer if i were fast asleep. I am not asleep and you cant get me to accept your no answer as the answer to my question.


what! you have to put a false flag up so that you can tell me the truth? truth is priceless, yet it should cost nothing. i will not accept a temporary truth as permanent truth since Jesus was not the way and the truth and the light and the way to God before his existence. that shows it is temporary that began from when it began; the beginning of his preaching the Gospel given to him. He was not the way for John or his father Zachariah. definitely not the way for the another comforter who came later. I am following the another comforter because i am in this life this moment which is within the time period of guardianship of the another comforter. keep your untrue and the reason you didnt show me the prayer God commanded upon you and the prophet who taught you is because you dont have any.

@ RoyPCain

Self-deception is the worst offence anyone can commit against himself. On NL it is a blatant lie for any muslim to say he does not know or see how islam follows the way of idolaters.

The hadiths referred to clearly show that the way the idolaters worshiped their gods in Arabia, which Muhammad met on ground is the same way he instructed that Allah should be worshiped. Is God to be worshiped in the same way idols are worshiped?

As for Christians' worship, God is a Spirit and those that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth (John 4:24). To worship God, you must first get into the spirit to be able to tune to His frequency (you may not understand this). Praise His name like angels do in heaven. Tell Him you appreciate His love and mercy etc. and while doing all that you begin to feel His presence even in your room.

In Christendom the worship is not standardised because you cannot box God in a corner. His Spirit moves the way He likes.

The normal service in almost all churches is praying first personally as you come in, start the praise of His name by singing collectively, pray again and sermon begins, after sermon pray again and go home.
But it could take a very different form sometimes. You might decide to do it the normal way and God would say no and give an instruction on how He wants it done that day.

One of the beauties of Christianity is that it is not only one person who hears from God as against islam where only Muhammad could hear from Allah. Since he died no more messages coming from Allah. The muslims are in spiritual darkness because they no longer can hear from their Lord.

When muslims accuse the Christians of one thing or the other, it is because they don't know our God. He never leaves us in darkness. We hear from Him. In the Book of Revelations He sent messages to the various churches and told them what they were doing wrong. Even today He warns, counsels and admonishes us. Do you have all those advantages as muslims? Come to Jesus.

cleanvessel: @ lanrexlan

Don't be deceived by satan's lies. Breaking of bread is called the Lord's super or Holy Communion. Jesus commanded we should be doing it in remembrance of Him and he did it first (Mat. 26:26-28).

If any pagans did such, they copied it from the Christians and not the opposite.

Where's proof for that? Was paganism before christianity or christianity before paganism?

Jesus is not sent to Isreal alone. God has timing. When he made the statement in Matthew 15:24, it was not yet the time for the Gentiles.

Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore and teach all NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

The above command was given by Jesus Himself after his resurrection. The time for the Gentiles began from there.

Gospel of Matthew 10;5-6-''And these twelve disciples he commanded,saying;Go not in the way of the Gentiles nor enter a city of the samaritans,but go rather into the house of the lost SHEEP of THE house of ISRAEL''.Which one is correct?

I'm sure you know all these but want to mislead the ignorant. Some people are bent to serve satan knowing and directly how much more serving him indirectly, which you are doing. May God forgive you.

Who's serving satan? I am serving the creator of heavens and the earth and all that's between.....Peace

deSika: try again wiseman,
Jesus did not copy bread eating froom pagans, as a matter of fact. jesus grew up among jews a very religous group of Human beings. so there was no contact between Jesus and pagans oops

by the way do you eat bread, uhm are you thinking what i am thinking.

Ask cleanvessel that question,he said wearing garments is part of idol worship and also performing ablution.Ask him if he wears garments or not and if people don't perform ablution in the bible.

those guys brught up what Muhammad ffoounder of Islam allowed from pagan. you can do yourself the favor and tow their line, get what Jesus allowed from pagan worship. oops. and not what followers catholics and the rest brought up after Jesus ministry. oops

by the way i would like to advise you to explain why it is important that Allah must be worshipped the same way as idols are. because it baffles non musims why a true God will ask his followers to worship him in the way Pagans worshipped their idols, why a true God would ask his followers would ask his follwers to use a house used to serve idols for him. me thinks, it seems those pagans were getting it right in their worship of idols, so in the end idol worship may not be wrong to Allah after all. if Allah sees nothing wrong in their mode and place of worship. oops

Salaam aleikun

Jesus(pbuh) and many prophets also bowed and worship God,idol worshippers also bow and worship their idols? Did Jesus(pbuh) copied bowing to God from idol worshippers? Absolutely No,who are the idol worshippers bowing to? Inanimate objects they created by themselves,who did Jesus(pbuh) and we muslims bow to? The creator of THE heavens and earth.What matter most is the intention why you bow and whom you bow to.The kabba was built by Abraham(pbuh),a righteous man,kabba is the first house of worship on earth.The kabba was meant for the worship of THE one true God and Abraham(pbuh) did that.But due to change in time,ignorance and disbelief sets in Makkah and people keeps idols in kabba but when prophet muhammed(pbuh) came and became a prophet,he demolished all the idol worshipping and dedicated the kabba to the worship of THE one true God which it was meant for.....Peace

cleanvessel:

By this statement of yours, it implies you have seen that islam follows the way of idolaters and you now want the true way.

Jesus said I am the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE, nobody can come unto the Father but by me (John 14:6).

If you accept that, I will tell you the rest. Thank you.

common stop deceiving your self, this statement only firm during the reign of prophet isa(a.s). he (jesus) said in john 9:5 " As long as i am in the world, i am the light of the world. this verse has abrogated the one you quoted above and he is no more on the surface of the earth.

lanrexlan: Ask cleanvessel that question,he said wearing garments is part of idol worship and also performing ablution.Ask him if he wears garments or not and if people don't perform ablution in the bible.

Jesus(pbuh) and many prophets also bowed and worship God,idol worshippers also bow and worship their idols? Did Jesus(pbuh) copied bowing to God from idol worshippers? Absolutely No,who are the idol worshippers bowing to? Inanimate objects they created by themselves,who did Jesus(pbuh) and we muslims bow to? The creator of THE heavens and earth.What matter most is the intention why you bow and whom you bow to.The kabba was built by Abraham(pbuh),a righteous man,kabba is the first house of worship on earth.The kabba was meant for the worship of THE one true God and Abraham(pbuh) did that.But due to change in time,ignorance and disbelief sets in Makkah and people keeps idols in kabba but when prophet muhammed(pbuh) came and became a prophet,he demolished all the idol worshipping and dedicated the kabba to the worship of THE one true God which it was meant for.....Peace

Kaaba was not built by Abraham, it is a lie. If you dispute it, I will prove it to you.

cleanvessel:

Kaaba was not built by Abraham, it is a lie. If you dispute it, I will prove it to you.

It was built by your grandpa abi?

lanrexlan: It was built by your grandpa abi?

No. Kaaba was not built by his grandpa, it was built by pagans in arabia.

Muhammed says it was built 40 years prior to the Temple at Jerusalem:
Narrated Abu Dhaar: I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Which mosque was built first?" He replied, "Al-Masjid-ul-Haram." I asked, "Which (was built) next?" He replied, "Al-Masjid-ul-Aqs-a (i.e. Jerusalem)." I asked, "What was the period in between them? He replied, forty years.
Sahih Bukhari 4:55:636

The Temple at Jerusalem was built by Solomon around 958-951 BC. This implies that if Muhammad were to be believed, the Ka’aba must have been built approximately 998-991 BC. But Abraham lived around 2000 BC and both Abraham and Ishmael would have been dead by then.

If Muhammad is correct, then the Qur’an [and therefore Allah] is wrong. But if the Qur’an is correct in stating that Abraham and Ishmael built the Ka’aba, then Muhammad and the sahih hadith is wrong.

The Ka’aba has nothing to do with Abraham or Ishmael. It has a wholly pagan heritage. Egyptian Professor and foremost authority on Arabic literature, Dr. Taha Husayn, said the following:
The case for this episode is very obvious because it is of recent date and came into vogue just before the rise of Islam. Islam exploited it for religious reasons.[1]

The fact that Muhammad considered dismantling it is a fact that it was not built by Abraham as a house of worship.

Narrated Aswad: Ibn Az-Zubair said to me, "Aisha used to tell you secretly a number of things. What did she tell you about the Ka'ba?" I replied, "She told me that once the Prophet said, 'O 'Aisha! Had not your people been still close to the pre-Islamic period of ignorance (infidelity)! I would have dismantled the Ka'ba and would have made two doors in it; one for entrance and the other for exit." Later on Ibn Az-Zubair did the same.
Sahih Bukhari 1:3:128

Muhammad proved quran to be incorrect. Thank you.

pointblank 321:

No. Kaaba was not built by his grandpa, it was built by pagans in arabia.

Muhammed says it was built 40 years prior to the Temple at Jerusalem:
Narrated Abu Dhaar: I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Which mosque was built first?" He replied, "Al-Masjid-ul-Haram." I asked, "Which (was built) next?" He replied, "Al-Masjid-ul-Aqs-a (i.e. Jerusalem)." I asked, "What was the period in between them? He replied, forty years.
Sahih Bukhari 4:55:636

The Temple at Jerusalem was built by Solomon around 958-951 BC. This implies that if Muhammad were to be believed, the Ka’aba must have been built approximately 998-991 BC. But Abraham lived around 2000 BC and both Abraham and Ishmael would have been dead by then.

If Muhammad is correct, then the Qur’an [and therefore Allah] is wrong. But if the Qur’an is correct in stating that Abraham and Ishmael built the Ka’aba, then Muhammad and the sahih hadith is wrong.

The Ka’aba has nothing to do with Abraham or Ishmael. It has a wholly pagan heritage. Egyptian Professor and foremost authority on Arabic literature, Dr. Taha Husayn, said the following:
The case for this episode is very obvious because it is of recent date and came into vogue just before the rise of Islam. Islam exploited it for religious reasons.[1]

The fact that Muhammad considered dismantling it is a fact that it was not built by Abraham as a house of worship.

Narrated Aswad: Ibn Az-Zubair said to me, "Aisha used to tell you secretly a number of things. What did she tell you about the Ka'ba?" I replied, "She told me that once the Prophet said, 'O 'Aisha! Had not your people been still close to the pre-Islamic period of ignorance (infidelity)! I would have dismantled the Ka'ba and would have made two doors in it; one for entrance and the other for exit." Later on Ibn Az-Zubair did the same.
Sahih Bukhari 1:3:128

Muhammad proved quran to be incorrect. Thank you.

Thanks for job well done.

cleanvessel:

Thanks for job well done.

if i may add

why would Muhammad change direction of prayers from kabba to Jerusalem and then back to kabba, if he was sure that Abraham built a place that God commaded him to build for worship.

If Abraham was asked by Allah to build a house of worship. why change direction of prayer from a God ordained house of prayer.

deSika:
if i may add

why would Muhammad change direction of prayers from kabba to Jerusalem and then back to kabba, if he was sure that Abraham built a place that God commaded him to build for worship.

If Abraham was asked by Allah to build a house of worship. why change direction of prayer from a God ordained house of prayer.

I wonder o!