The last thing I need right now is more religion. I have enough problems as it is. I just started dating this girl who is very intelligent but to my disadvantage, is a christian.

Moving back to Nigeria has been more bumpy than Kim Kardashian's backside for me. NEPA, slow internet, serious hold ups and worst- working with either corrupt people or over-religious blowhards. Money is easy to make in Nigeria once you have a reasonable level of intelligence and capital. Money can't buy happiness or peace of mind for an atheist in Nigeria....

So, back to dating this girl- she has finally noticed that I am absolutely quiet when it comes to religion. When prodded I only give vague answers. When she said that we should go to church together because we would look like a power couple (me in my suit and her in her body fitting formal wear), I tried to hold my sarcastic laughter back but I couldnt. She finally laid it all out for me-

"I like you but I am afraid of your behaviour towards God. You havent been to church since I met you and you hardly even pray or talk about God. Are you a pagan? I know you are catholic and catholic donts even miss mass at all" (mass is catholic church service)

I lied without blinking as if I had always knew this day will come-

"Are you crazy? You love it when I buy stuff for you that you like but you forget that one has to make money and that money is time. I dont have time after working. I am usually tired and I rest during work. I am not a pagan."


I managed to escape this latest episode but I wonder how long I can keep this lie going on. I dont want to lose her because she is one of the few things that keep me sane in this our overly religious country

turnstoner: make time and go with her to church, maybe, once in two or three months

turnstoner: Listen to me when I say:

Never on any account disclose your atheism unless its a casual relationship

Logicboy03:

I understand your point very well.

However, on the other hand, one can lose his mind living a lie, especially to one that he really loves

turnstoner: I live in Nigeria. I have many friends who are xtians; some of them are even pastors. They drink, womanize, cheat and steal more than I do and they still come out shining every day as christians. Surely pretending to be a Christian can't be that hard!

Logicboy03:

Are you sure? Not everyone can do such- an atheist living a lie by going to church when he doesnt believe

turnstoner: I live in Nigeria. I have many friends who are xtians; some of them are even pastors. They drink, womanize, cheat and steal more than I do and they still come out shining every day as christians. Surely pretending to be a Christian can't be that hard!

Alfa Seltzer: Have you smashed it yet?

Uyi Iredia:

Let him try. If Jean Meslier could be a priest why can't he go to church. I'm sure he possibly couldn't hate church more than Jean Meslier did.

Red-Light:
The best advice so far. it will be hard but that's the only way or he loses her forever... Nigerians/blacks generally are fanatics.

the only people i disclose my real self too are the people that i wouldn't care what happens when they know. like friends or just a girl i flirt with.

not people like my mum or my sisters. though am lucky to have a fiance that understands including her parents (and that's because she is not black) but i don't think that your or his girlfriend will understand cos she already sounds like a fanatic

just tell him to live like act normal Nigerian that goes to church only....

Logicboy03:


Hmmm not so easy ooo

turnstoner:

Really

OK. Try and find yourself an atheist girlfriend.....

......and come tell us how easy that is

FOLYKAZE: LB, we are so different. Im dating a christian here and got no problem with her or any member of her family. When we were friends, I made her know im atheist. I didn't hide my identity from her cuz im proud of it. She knew me and love me for whom I am. Concerning problem of going to church with your gal, I faced the same problem but I got to do at least to honour her. She will invite me for special programmes and I will surely attend. It doesn't mean I believe in the lie they are selling.

I played a game one sunday morning. I woke up and dress early to her church. She was suprised seeing me smiling and happy to go to church. My aim is to beat sunday school time. On getting to church, the dude in my front was discussing about satan. I took the chance to debate with him. The whole church was like battle ground. I got some name-calling me and mocking me like a possessed guy while little reasonable ones were supporting me. My gal was next to me expecting the evangelist to answer my questions. The pastor even came and was bash. At the end, I was told not to follow philosophy and just believe. At the closing period, they pastor invites my gal and told her rants like im a demon and she should let me out of her life. On getting home, my gal told me the whole thang pastor discussed with her. And she even questioned her belief right away from what she saw.

To worsen the whole case, she came to me one day and inform me that her worker's leader suspend her for putting on trousers. I was like what the hell? I lead her to workers meeting and informed them there that I bought what I like for my gal. If they dont want her to work in the church, it not a prob but they should stop embarrassing my gal. I tried to bash them with their bible cuz their worker's leader happens to be woman. I guess bible said woman not allowed to lead in church. My gal was like, hmmmm he is hero.

She took her decision to stop going to church. I didn't force her on this or something. She can believe in whatever makes her happy most. All I dont want is bringing it to my face. I remember those folks ranting on her trousers then came back to apologize and implore her to come back. NO WAY! I showed her what her pastor didn't have knowledge of in the bible and those twisted lies. She is now liberal.

Let me ask, if you are with your parents, do you follow them to church?

turnstoner:

Really

OK. Try and find yourself an atheist girlfriend.....

......and come tell us how easy that is

Uyi Iredia:

Make im try Dolemite. Sexy atheist babe wey make sense. Other atheist babes dey this forum.

Logicboy03:


Who be dolemite and how you take know say she sexy?

Logicboy03:

Who is Jean Meslier?

Uyi Iredia: Make FOLYKAZE try debate me I swear I for give the guy hard time. You know the best some people do when they note good arguments is to lock up or bring distractions. Why do I think of zeros and minus ones saying this ?

Uyi Iredia:

She is a Nairalander

FOLYKAZE:

Debate what? You want sand for your garri huh? You forgot to read this today;

FOLYKAZE:
2 Timothy 2:14
New Living Translation (©2007)

Remind everyone about these things, and command them in God's presence to stop fighting over words. Such arguments are useless, and they can ruin those who hear them.

FOLYKAZE:
^^^^arguing with you is pointless. You have made up your mind and not ready to change even though you are beaten. But dont forget, those watching on the bench will have the effect. The effect of bashing is never a waste though it is for you. Thats what I played on my gal. She wont listen to me if I argue with her directly.

The part I wanted to answer. As I've said elsewhere deism best describes my belief state at present. A self-fulfilling prophecy perhaps. An atheist insinuated that it was a phase b4 I become atheist but I think its very unlikely (and I'm being conservative saying that). I always liked the term 'free-thought' used by atheists, very simply, I take it to mean the willingness to contemplate/create ideas - any idea. I still disagree, as I have, that there is no God. As I began to contemplate philosophy more (and I admit this was stimulated by arguments with atheists) I decided life on earth (and intelligence in man - a living thing BTW) was the best pointer there is for God. This is where evolution came in, for while there are rare instances - such as harakiri's - of atheists disbelieving evolution, most atheists defend and believe the theory. I then decided if life could be explained by natural means which I strongly doubted, then atheism would be the logical step. I started by reading Darwin's famed book. The early chapters were good enough, but when the concept of natural selection was presented there were 2 fatal flaws: the first was that it was made in spite of observed limits to variations (e.g a cabbage never possibly chemosynthesizing, or pigeons never having beaks like woodpeckers), the second was the anthropormorphism of the term, a flaw which still bedevils evolutionists till this day. On the basis of that, I considered the theory a non-starter and opted for YEC (which I have dropped) & ID (which I still believe). Of course, since they usually state that people who disbelieve it don't understand it I decided to attempt to understand technicalities, so far as I can tell the problem is the same, in fact even worse, since the theory carries the hidden conjectures that life originated by chance (non-random NS is invoked but that fails because the concept requires a living system is in place), no reverse mutations undo the novel traits that are produced and all 'favorable' mutations must survive and reproduce.

Since the element crucial to a possible atheistic belief was in my eyes, a flaw I (while being a Christian) predicted that at most I could be deist. From, at the very least, skimming (for want of time) philosophical works I decided that there are 2 fundamental opposing philosophies: the materialist - who insists only matter exists (hence no God) and the idealist - who believes in an immaterial element in the universe (hence there is a God). As with all matters concerning ideas, these philosophies have their shades of grey. I decided idealism was preferable but what could justify it and what made materialism (and hence atheism untenable). Deliberating on it made me realize that both the materialist and idealist both share the common attribute of being products of intelligence (the terms thoughts, feelings, beliefs, axioms could also describe them). In justifying idealism, I noted that without intellectual ability one COULD NOT profess to be either a materialist or idealist and, this is crucial, all matter (in themselves) lack this capacity. In the thread 'A reasonable argument against God' DeepSight called thehomer a corpse. I think this insult was meant to reinforce this point. I revert back to the crucial question of life. Creationists and ID theorists can confidently say that:

• undirected matter is limited in what it can make (montmorollite crystals, diamonds, snows etc)

• intelligence (as especially seen in humans) makes systems which simulates life (the way all living things are made from encoded DNA or RNA is some viruses) and they hardly say this,

• intelligence (thoughts, feelings, beliefs, chimeras etc) is necessarily expressed through material means.

Of course, any one (using intelligence) can argue these, either for the sake of, or because of a bias but these 3 propositions are factual. I concluded, therefore that the materialist position confutes itself because it (by definition) denies the existence of what makes it possible while using it intelligence to propose how life and indeed the universe arose. Of course, strict materialists are atheists, then atheism is also shown contradictory. An interesting thing I noted was how people sometimes misused terms. Agnosticism is in fact atheism, the only difference is the agnostic disbelieves God on the basis of limitations in knowledge. I came across a Nigerian who said he was atheist, then next said he believed in an 'Infinite Intelligence', that categorically places him as a deist. I still do think there is good in Christianity and wisdom to be gotten from the Bible, I think however that what bedevils it as theistic religions is personalizing a God who hasn't made itself (himself or herself) explicit except through what is seen in Nature. So while the search continues, I think deism best captures my thoughts for now.

Interesting trivia:

• The founder of the Foursquare Gospel Church, Aimee McPherson, was for a time - an atheist. The reason for this is she became convinced of evolution and when she questioned her pastor on it she got no cogent replies. After she received the baptism of the Holy Spirit when her future husband prayed for her she changed her mind. I think 'evolution-believing' Christians are being naïve when they ignore what both YEC's and Dawkins harp on that evolution supports and is based on a materialistic mindset fundamentally opposed to Christianity. As with, all contradictions, it is rationalized away.

• I think God is, like human beings, conscious, infinite and intelligent and unlike humans, not contingent on defined physical laws for his existence or his capacity to affect. We depend on already extant material things to exist not so with God. From the above, one can see we share some qualities with God.

• Is God transcendent or immanent ? I think He could be both. It's like the question of the irresistible force against an immovable object. Let's take the former to be immaterial and the latter to be matter. Can anyone defeat the other. No (as was in a certain cartoon they both surrender). Hence, I understand God to be transcendent in that He is immaterial and immanent in that all matter originates from Him.

• I held Albert Einstein in esteem, but I think Planck was smarter. He is credited with the quantum theory. Any Physics student knows the Plack constant. Some of his statements I agree with and any theist or deist would agree with this quote from him: "I regard
consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from
consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness."




Forgive the long post. I just summarized 4 years of searching.

Logicboy03:


She sexy

Good for you

bolaino: Make unu follow me run my race. @op, just follow her to church once once, it won't kill u, personally I would'nt want to get married to a lady with atheistic views.

Logicboy03:


Not even this babe? (Kiera Knightley)