Memory is not a tangible item.

If you put your memory in a bag, how much of it is the Quran?

If you put all your phone apps in a bag, how much of it is the Quran?

A mushaf contains only Allah's words. That is what makes it revered and given its due respect.

Cutting your head analogy makes no sense. There is no comparison between your memory and the mushaf.

Where did I say they can touch ' a half'?

Even if the book has only juz Amma, as long as the words of Allah are dominant, it is a mushaf.

A book where the words of man are dominant is not the Quran.

Your memory or your smart phone does not have the words of Allah dominant.

I have provided evidences already and have referred you to look at some of the responses in Islamqa. Have you done that? Did you ignore the hadith I quoted?

Mac has provided even more evidence. According to that, the maliki school gives an exception for a woman in the hifz program only.

You are not in a ceremonal state of purity in your menses and I already quoted the hadith from muwatta malik which is the major evidence supporting this.

It is permissible for a menstruating womam to recite the Qur'an without touching it. Similarly, she can very well recite the portions of the Qur'an, which she does regularly, or even the Ahadith of the prophet (pbuh) . However she shouldn't touch the Qur'an with her hands

The above is from mac's link.

With due respect, I think you are passionate but not being objective.

The major evidence supporting this is the hadith, some people might differ on wudu but there is no doubt about the menses.

maclatunji:

Relax, if I wanted to argue, I would not post the link. I just pointed my opinion, like you have rightly pointed out: you are entitled to your position.

#Laughing

I am sure I have made it known before now that I find it offensive being told to relax. It is not funny.

Actually, I wasnt arguing either. I just saw something that corroborated my points and fed on it.

@tbaba, there is something about your attitude at answering questions. I will let that pass.

Again,

* you quoted a verse of the Quran. The purity mentioned is that of the angels. Do you admit to being earlier wrong on that note? Or are you not agreeing with that?

* You say my analogy doesnt make sense. Wow. There's been similar analogies used in interpreting verses of the Qur'an or ahadith.

*what if I didnt read your q&a that u didnt even provide the link for? What rule says I must do what you expect? You really need to be humble.

*The link maclatunji provided makes it clear that there is no authentic hadith saying a woman cannot. All I expected of you was to provide the authentic hadith that says so. You have not or have you?

@All
Kindly allow us to enjoy this discussion without any distraction stemming from personal issues
Brothers and sisters we are, We should be setting examples of civility

Please if you notice something about my posts, that is inappropriate, send me a private mail and id try to improve. I won't be mad. I am not perfect.

* I never gave my personal opinion on the ayah, I only gave the opinion of Qurtubi and I did say that other scholars disagreed with him. The other scholars reached the same conclusions based on another narration in muwatta malik.

* I didn't intend for my statement to sound rude. I apologize. I felt it didn't fit.

* Spambot does not like the links from islamqa.

* That is not exactly true. All the discussion was focused the narration in muwatta malik.

The messenger letter to amr ibn hazm contains the statement : " Only a clean one may touch the Quran'

They tried to figure out what that meant.

From the discussion, there is a concensus on the menses and other states of ceremonial impurity. There is a disagreement on wudu

It is permissible for a menstruating womam to recite the Qur'an without touching it. Similarly, she can very well recite the portions of the Qur'an, which she does regularly, or even the Ahadith of the prophet (pbuh) . However she shouldn't touch the Qur'an with her hands

They quoted a weak hadith once too but the conclusion is not from there.

Sorry for any inappropriate thing, it is not to sound arrogant. May Allah protect us from that.

tbaba1234:

Nothing stops anyone from reciting the Quran. Touching the mushaf is the issue here

As regards the mushaf, this is what Allah says of its replica.

I swear by the positions of the stars––a mighty oath, if you only knew––that this is truly a noble Quran, in a protected Record that only the purified can touch (Surah 56 75:79)

Imam Qurtubi and mazhari interpreted this way. Also the sister of umar (RA) asked him to take a bath before she gave him the mushaf to read, she also recited this ayah.

Other scholars like abdullah ibn Abbas interpret this ayah differently but base the ruling on not touching on a hadith on the authority of abdullah ibn umar.

The messenger letter to amr ibn hazm contains the statement : " Only a clean one may touch the Quran'

This hadith is recorded in Ibn Abi Dawud, the muwatta of imam malik, musnad of Abdurazzaq, Tabarani, Ibn ul mundhir, Ibn Marduyah.

All four major schools of thought consider purity as a condition for touching the book

I summarised this information from one of my tafsir books: Ma'ariful Quran.

But brother,there are people the prophet(pbuh)sent the Quran to and they even trample on it.The verse of surah Al-Waqiyah is talking about angels,what about if an arab that's a non-muslim want to read the Quran,must he perform ablution??......Peace

I am going to reiterate my points to make what I am driving at clear.


*The verse speaks of angels

*there is no authentic hadith asking a woman not to hold the Quran(if there is any, please show it)

*Aisha(r.a) spoke to a woman, asking her if her hand was involved

-It is all well.I hold no grudges.
-If you convince me, I will surely give in, But I am not convinced by yours.

lanrexlan: But brother,there are people the prophet(pbuh)sent the Quran to and they even trample on it.The verse of surah Al-Waqiyah is talking about angels,what about if an arab that's a non-muslim want to read the Quran,must he perform ablution??......Peace

There is a disagreement about wudu, i did not give my personal opinion on the ayah not everyone agrees with Qurtubi's interpretation. I clearly stated that.

I just summarised a book's general overview.

I don't know of a hadith where the messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) sent a mushaf to a non muslim. Please do you have the reference..Umar (RA) took a shower before he read the book.

As we have seen already , there are differences of opinion on whether a person should have wudu or not. I think a person can choose which divide, he belongs to.

I have not seen such a divide in the case of menses.

Wa aleikum salam

deols: I am going to reiterate my points to make what I am driving at clear.


*The verse speaks of angels

*there is no authentic hadith asking a woman not to hold the Quran(if there is any, please show it)

*Aisha(r.a) spoke to a woman, asking her if her hand was involved

-It is all well.I hold no grudges.
-If you convince me, I will surely give in, But I am not convinced by yours.

Alright, let's work with this:


there is no authentic hadith asking a woman not to hold the Quran(if there is any, please show it)

I do not think there has to be a gender specific hadith. There is one that talks about been 'clean' or 'in a state of purity' before touching it. That hadith is AUTHENTIC.

a. Minor impurity means no wudu.

b. Major impurity refers to the state of Janabah as well as menstrual and postpartum discharges. (I.e needs ghusl)

There are differences of opinions on a but there seems to be one opinion on b.

A man or woman in this state does not touch the mushaf with his/her hands.

I don't think, you need a gender specific hadith for this, since it covers both sexes.

This is only for the mushaf not any other thing,

I decided to look up hadiths on menstruation to see if any validates what you are driving at. I found some interesting hadiths.

I guessed this is the hadith, you are talking about:

Book 003, Number 0587:
'A'isha reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said to me: Get me the mat from the mosque. I said: I am menstruating. Upon this he remarked: Your menstruation is not in your hand.

I don't think this qualifies as evidence. One is a direct order on the mushaf, the other is talking of a prayer mat. If it is solid evidence, I am sure that there would be a significant difference of opinions.

In this case, there is no blood on her hand to stain the mat. This simply means she can hand him the cloth and her menstruation is not an excuse not to pick the mat. In fact, her asking this question shows that there were restrictions on menstruating women.

Umm salama (RA) mentioned that she had to wash her clothes if there was blood on it before she can pray with it. This is mentioned in Abu Dawud. The messenger also washed menstrual blood stains from his clothes.

Another way of looking at this hadith is that the menstruating are not allowed to go to the praying place/mosque, just like a person in janabah.

'A'isha ra relates that the Prophet Sallallahu alayhi wasallam said: "I do not make lawful the masjid for menstruating women or for one who is in a seminally defiled state [junub]. (Sunan Abu Dawud)

Umm Salama ra related that the Prophet Sallallahu alayhi wasallam entered the courtyard of the masjid and announced aloud, "The masjid is not permitted for the seminally defiled and for the menstruating women." (Tabarani)

Also in bukhari:

Hadith 321/06. Menstrual Periods/Volume 01/Sahih Bukhari (English)

Narrated Aiyub:

Hafsa said, 'We used to forbid our young women to go out for the two `Id prayers. A woman came and stayed at the palace of Bani Khalaf and she narrated about her sister whose husband took part in twelve holy battles along with the Prophet and her sister was with her husband in six (out of these twelve). She (the woman's sister) said, "We used to treat the wounded, look after the patients and once I asked the Prophet, 'Is there any harm for any of us to stay at home if she doesn't have a veil?' He said, 'She should cover herself with the veil of her companion and should participate in the good deeds and in the religious gathering of the Muslims.' When Um `Atiya came I asked her whether she had heard it from the Prophet. She replied, "Yes. May my father be sacrificed for him (the Prophet)! (Whenever she mentioned the Prophet she used to say, 'May my father be sacrificed for him) I have heard the Prophet saying, 'The unmarried young virgins and the mature girl who stay often screened or the young unmarried virgins who often stay screened and the menstruating women should come out and participate in the good deeds as well as the religious gathering of the faithful believers but the menstruating women should keep away from the Musalla (praying place).' " Hafsa asked Um `Atiya surprisingly, "Do you say the menstruating women?" She replied, "Doesn't a menstruating woman attend `Arafat (Hajj) and such and such (other deeds)?"

Muslim, Book 004, Number 1932:
Umm 'Atiyya said: He (the Apostle of Allah) commanded us that we should take out unmarried women and purdah-observing ladies for 'Id prayers, and he commanded the menstruating women to remain away from the place of worship of the Muslims.

It is clear that a menstruating woman falls under the same category . She is not allowed into the prayer area/mosque.

Aisha (RA) 's door opened up into the mosque so it is easy to see how she easily pick the mat without going in. Therefore she just needs to stretch her hand in since ' the menstruating is not in her hand'.

Now let's go back to the hadith in in the Muwatta of Imam Malik "Only a person in the state of purity should touch the Qur'an."

It is clear that a woman in her menses is not supposed to go to the prayer area because of her menses which is an impurity.

She falls under the category of this hadith.

Anyone in need of a ritual bath whether male or female falls into this category. It is no wonder why there is no wonder why all four major schools of thought have this conclusion on the mushaf.

A woman in her menses can perform all the rights of hajj except tawaf. Why do you think that is?

In marital relations, only intercourse is forbidden. The messenger had normal relations with his wives during their menses.
:
The messenger (SAW) reported to have said: do everything except intercourse.
(Muslim book 3, hadith 592)

So his lying on his wives laps is perfectly normal.

I do not think the hadith you presented is evidence . There are many restrictions as a result of the menses revolving around ibadah, this is just one of them.

There is more than enough evidence to show that a woman in her menses is in a state of impurity (hence the restrictions). Therefore the position of the scholars based on the hadith of the messenger (SAW) is correct and fair.

And Allah knows best.

@deols, was that the right hadith?

Does it convince you?

tbaba1234: @deols, was that the right hadith?

Does it convince you?

Sorry for the late response.

I will talk about what is practicable.

A woman shouldnt use this as an excuse not to perform acts of worship.

If she wouldnt touch the Mushaf, she should recite from the divided ones.

She can use mobile apps and other software. I think women shouldnt lose out especially at this period of Ramadan.

..and Allah knows best.