deborsky you say very rash?just imagine people you percieve as foreigners using up your wealth.a resource that have been promised you for about 15years ago no show,wetin you go do?

@ 4 Play and Kobojunkie:

Okay, I give you the machinery importation bit. (Although China's machinery no good like Western one! )

But regardless of that, my argument still stands, due to the financial/capital aspect. How are the black farmers going to farm when they aren't given loans to fund their businesses (due to financial institutions being controlled by whites)?

The Western world is trying to make Mugabe look like an idiot, and it seems as though they are succeeding, because clearly a lot of you have been brainwashed into believing their crap. Is it not the same Mugabe who ruled Zimbabwe for many years prior to these upheavals?

Also, who is going to buy their products (tobacco, cheese, wine etc.)? Is it Britain or the US who will buy it?? Is it Africans who eat this cheese and drink this wine?
And the other products (ground nuts etc.) simply aren't as viable!

beystwin:

@ 4 Play and Kobojunkie:

Okay, I give you the machinery importation bit. (Although China's machinery no good like Western one! )

But regardless of that, my argument still stands, due to the financial/capital aspect. How are the black farmers going to farm when they aren't given loans to fund their businesses (due to financial institutions being controlled by whites)?

The Western world is trying to make Mugabe look like an idiot, and it seems as though they are succeeding, because clearly a lot of you have been brainwashed into believing their crap. Is it not the same Mugabe who ruled Zimbabwe for many years prior to these upheavals?

Also, who is going to buy their products (tobacco, cheese, wine etc.)? Is it Britain or the US who will buy it?? Is it Africans who eat this cheese and drink this wine?
And the other products (ground nuts etc.) simply aren't as viable!

Just like they did to Haiti during the slavery era.

I have a question for you @Beystwin. What particular sanction are you refering to in here??

No need to claim we are brainwashed cause we do not see the world and issues through the same spectacles but come on. You are essentially sitting here, trying to play the same old "RACE/BLAME THE WEST" card and you somehow believe we should all see it the same way, when evidence is clear it is not? Come on!!!

savanaha:

While I maintain the position that Mugabe was on the right for handling the white farmers the way he did seeing as the British did not hold up their end of the deal. He screwed up with the way he distributed it and his inability to leave his position. I wonder though if he finally leaves his presidency for life position if those whites would go back given the opportunity.

Don't think they would. That ship has sailed. he does need to go though. His staying in power now is just a Bravado attempt to show the West his resilience and nothing more. He is damaging his people.

Kobojunkie:

I have a question for you @Beystwin. What particular sanctions are you referring to here??

No need to claim we are brainwashed cause we do not see the world and issues through the same spectacles but come on. You are essentially sitting here, trying to play the same old "RACE/BLAME THE WEST" card and you somehow believe we should all see it the same way, when evidence is clear it is not? Come on!!!

This is not an issue of "seeing the world and issues through different spectacles". You are displaying what psychology terms "selective attendance" - focusing on one issue and ignoring the rest. If IMF/World Bank don't give you a loan, is that not a form of sanction?
Capital (or lack thereof) is a driving factor in the failure of black farmers to deliver.

I am definitely not anti-Oyibo. Nor am I anti-West. However, I do know when hidden policies can make a country fail. These policies may not have been made explicit for everyone to see, but they still exist.

The bottom line is that the West is demonstrating that African countries should never challenge the West - they will fail miserably.

beystwin:


The Western world is trying to make Mugabe look like an idiot, and it seems as though they are succeeding, because clearly a lot of you have been brainwashed into believing their crap. Is it not the same Mugabe who ruled Zimbabwe for many years prior to these upheavals?

Also, who is going to buy their products (tobacco, cheese, wine etc.)? Is it Britain or the US who will buy it?? Is it Africans who eat this cheese and drink this wine?
And the other products (ground nuts etc.) simply aren't as viable!

To the first part in bold, this is the basic problem with Africans - yes he was good before, but now he is PAST IT - He has lost all reasonable ability to run Zimbabwe properly, and therefore he SHOULD GO. Why must he rule the country forever? Situations and circumstances of the world economy have changed, and he could not adapt, hence his failure. HE SHOULD LEAVE. At his age now i'm sure some degree of senility has crept in, he is no longer at his prime and others can serve Zim better.

As to the second part in bold, you show, again, your lack of understanding of the fundamental issues. Zimbabwe was the FOOD BASKET (not wine and tobacco basket) of southern Africa, meaning substantial food cultivation was going on alongside those cash crops; you make it seem like only wine and cheese were being produced, or are the maize and milk producers in Shonga, Kwara state who came from Zim also growing wine there?

Mugabe has lost the plot - he claims it is the West causing problems but there are NO SANCTIONS against their trade, so whatever 'wine, tobacco and cheese' they can produce has willing buyers, if they are making any. His pig-headed policies have led to the country's demise.

The West is not demonstrating anything, rather Zimbabwe's foolishness has become Zambia and others' gain - the white farmers are moving there and creating value with their expertise, while Zimbabwe continues to hurtle down into poverty.

I am focusing on the sanctions cause that in essence is what you continue to blame for the problems in Zimbabwe. How am I being selective when it is what you continue to use as reason for your argument

OK, Sanctions and the west to the side. Mugabe made a decision which affected his own people. As a leader, it is his duty to make sure that all decisions made are in the favour of his people and not against. He made a decision, there were consequences. He could have made compromises or made sure to secure things before making the move he made. Is the west supposed to sit back and take everything??

I mean we are speaking of a president playing away the lives of his own people cause of his huge ego. There is no excuse for what he has done as president. His duties are simple, protect the interest of his people, not the people of another country but his people. He failed and continues to sit back there and blame the west for it.


So I hope you can see that whichever way you try to cut it, this man failed and he should have stepped down a long time ago. Sure he had some good years but to assume that he would always have good years and so deem it wise to remain president for as long as he has and continues to is one of the biggest mistakes.

my greatest fear is that ever the new guy chiangarai is looking to me like in the long run he too might be sit tight.but still with all the love i have for mugabe, the guy gotta leave

debosky:

To the first part in bold, this is the basic problem with Africans - yes he was good before, but now he is PAST IT - He has lost all reasonable ability to run Zimbabwe properly, and therefore he SHOULD GO. Why must he rule the country forever? Situations and circumstances of the world economy have changed, and he could not adapt, hence his failure. HE SHOULD LEAVE. At his age now i'm sure some degree of senility has crept in, he is no longer at his prime and others can serve Zim better.

As to the second part in bold, you show, again, your lack of understanding of the fundamental issues. Zimbabwe was the FOOD BASKET (not wine and tobacco basket) of southern Africa, meaning substantial food cultivation was going on alongside those cash crops; you make it seem like only wine and cheese were being produced, or are the maize and milk producers in Shonga, Kwara state who came from Zim also growing wine there?

Mugabe has lost the plot - he claims it is the West causing problems but there are NO SANCTIONS against their trade, so whatever 'wine, tobacco and cheese' they can produce has willing buyers, if they are making any. His pig-headed policies have led to the country's demise.

The West is not demonstrating anything, rather Zimbabwe's foolishness has become Zambia and others' gain - the white farmers are moving there and creating value with their expertise, while Zimbabwe continues to hurtle down into poverty.

Your statments are quite accurate however it most be noted that the "WEST's" only interests in Zimbabwe is economical and they don't care too much about the people that live there but what they can exploit. It was Mugabe's job to understand that fact fully before taking such drastic land reforms. There could have been other compromises with the Land owners. he did give htem a lot of time to negotiate but they fought vigorously to keep the advantage.

They are now waiting for a pro western govt like Tvansgiri's to usher them back in to continue what they started. Mugabe doesn't want this and in as much as his decision is causing the country hardship, history may vindicate him later on.

@ debosky:

To the first part in bold, this is the basic problem with Africans - yes he was good before, but now he is PAST IT - He has lost all reasonable ability to run Zimbabwe properly, and therefore he SHOULD GO. Why must he rule the country forever? Situations and circumstances of the world economy have changed, and he could not adapt, hence his failure. HE SHOULD LEAVE. At his age now i'm sure some degree of senility has crept in, he is no longer at his prime and others can serve Zim better.

You are beating a dead horse. We have already agreed that he should go. Why are you bringing this up again? The only reason I mentioned the fact that he ruled Zimbabwe many years with no major problems is because the West is trying to make it look like he all of a sudden turned into this great big idiot overnight. I am not endorsing that he stay in power - on the contrary. Please read my above posts before making assumptions.

As to the second part in bold, you show, again, your lack of understanding of the fundamental issues. Zimbabwe was the FOOD BASKET (not wine and tobacco basket) of southern Africa, meaning substantial food cultivation was going on alongside those cash crops; you make it seem like only wine and cheese were being produced, or are the maize and milk producers in Shonga, Kwara state who came from Zim also growing wine there?

It seems you really don't get it! There is such a thing as farming that is VIABLE. A food basket is sufficient to feed and sustain the locals, but the bottom line is, at the end of the day, this is not what brings in the cash! And you need this cash to keep the economy going! How can you sustain the farming sector solely by producing "food basket" crops, when there is no profitable farming (wine, cheese, tobacco) to bring in the revenue which fuels the whole economy? Plus, this viable farming brings with it industries (e.g. production, processing and packaging), which in turn creates more jobs and brings in yet more revenue. Take away this viable farming, and what you get is a domino effect - a collapse of industries.
Even if you export "food basket" crops to neighbouring African countries, this will not bring in enough revenue.

I am done with this topic. Unlike Mugabe, I know when to retire!

zimbabwe problem is not just about mugabe,white farmers and thewestern countries.but the common landless people of zimbabwe

Zimbabwe is not under trade sanctions.Zimbabwe is free to import trade machinery from the West to its heart delight,thus any suggestion that sanctions prevent it from importing farm machinery is pathetic.So also is the rather obtuse claim about Zimbabwe's agricultural  products being blocked out of Western markets.

Stop spreading false stories. Zim is under tough WEST sanction.

The parliament official said for the past three years Zimbabwe had been under sanctions as it had not received any credit from the international lending institutions like the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank.

--

The IMF and the World Bank stopped crucial balance of payments support to Zimbabwe three years ago and many financial institutions cut off the country from accessing offshore loans.The IMF recently further removed Zimbabwe from the list ofcountries eligible to borrow resources under the Poverty Reductionand Growth Facility because of a 53 million US dollars debt

Also go and read US executive order 13391 and 13288.

Norman Lamb MP has accused Barclays Bank of providing "personal banking services" for up to four members of Robert Mugabe's regime who have benefited from the controversial land-grabs from white farmers in Zimbabwe.

--

Mr Lamb also claimed that Barclays had "arranged finance facilities worth £110 million to Zimbabwean companies involved in tobacco, mining, sugar, manufacturing and horticulture".

You surely don't know how WEST works. China is able to do business because US cannot bully them.
They bully other countries if they do Business with Zim.

NOTE:
It is same Zim Opposition calling for sanction on their own people. The MDC has called for saction many times.
Foolish Africans calling saction on their own people.
Mugbabe is OLD MAN, he is not the one suffering but ordinary people. They should rather find better way to ease him out office.

Mugabe may be a dictator, he may be powerdrunk, but he is not a mumu.
Despite the fact that Mugabe and Zimbabwe have failed because the people are suffering, this doesn't mean that he is daft. The situation in Zimbabwe is just a clear example of the Western world demonstrating how powerful they are and how harshly they will deal with whoever opposes them. They are using Zimbabwe as a scapegoat.
It is not about white farmers being chased out of the country and black farmers not being able to take their place. Clearly, Zimbabwe is suffering due to the sanctions that have been placed on it by the Western world. The Western world is trying to make other African countries follow suit, until Mugabe throws in the towel.
Very sad indeed, this situation. My suggestion to Mugabe is to give up so his people have a better life, because he has definitely failed

.

I agree with you.

"Oyibo, we will never challenge you again! You win!"

I strongly object.

Beystwin,

My advice to you is to check your facts before commenting or else these guys would continue making you look silly.

You just continue making assumptions that end up being completely incorrect.

When you first admitted your error about the agricultural machinery, I thought I would give you a bit of support by telling others to lay of you that we all make errors in our assumptions sometimes and you were a honourably person by admitting your error unlike some buffoons I have seen here. But after that, you now progress with further assumptions that are wrong that indicates to me that you are the type that don't bother checking their facts.

beystwin:

It seems you really don't get it! There is such a thing as farming that is VIABLE. A food basket is sufficient to feed and sustain the locals, but the bottom line is, at the end of the day, this is not what brings in the cash! And you need this cash to keep the economy going!

How did you come to the assumption that Zimbabwe was called a food basket because they produced enough food to feed and sustain the locals?

Contrary to your assumption, Zimbabwe was termed "Southern Africa food basket" because they produced enough volumes, not only to meet local demands but, to sell large quantities to other countries within the region. Get your facts right and stop making stupid assumptions.

beystwin:

How can you sustain the farming sector solely by producing "food basket" crops, when there is no profitable farming (wine, cheese, tobacco) to bring in the revenue which fuels the whole economy? Plus, this viable farming brings with it industries (e.g. production, processing and packaging), which in turn creates more jobs and brings in yet more revenue. Take away this viable farming, and what you get is a domino effect - a collapse of industries.
Even if you export "food basket" crops to neighbouring African countries, this will not bring in enough revenue.

I am done with this topic. Unlike Mugabe, I know when to retire!

How did you come to the assumption that food basket crops are not profitable?

What makes you think wine and cheese are a major part of Zimbabwe's revenue from agriculture? Does Zimbabwe even produce up to half the volumes of wine that SA produces?

Zimbabwe's major agricultural products (that used to make them loads of money) are corn, cotton, tobacco, wheat, coffee, sugarcane, peanuts; sheep, goats and pigs meat.

beystwin:

This is not an issue of "seeing the world and issues through different spectacles". You are displaying what psychology terms "selective attendance" - focusing on one issue and ignoring the rest. If IMF/World Bank don't give you a loan, is that not a form of sanction?
Capital (or lack thereof) is a driving factor in the failure of black farmers to deliver.

IMF/WB did not give them a loan because Zimbabwe was ALREADY DEFAULTING on repayments of existing loans granted to them AND economic projections indicate they will CONTINUE defaulting on these existing loan commitments talkless of new loan commitments DUE to MUGU-GABE's BAD MANAGEMENT.

For all you Mumus who keep arguing with me for arguing's sake, going round in circles and selectively quoting my posts (especially 4play and Sagamite, the smart mugus), watch this and hear it from the horse's mouth:

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/06/04/vinci.italy.fao.summit.cnn?iref=videosearch

So I suggest you all shut the h*ll up because you have no idea what is going on there. You are the real Mumus.

(I know you still won't believe it even after hearing the truth and you will continue to argue uselessy, calling Mugabe a liar as if you are one of the members of his government; but just for the record, I tried).

I wash my hands off this issue. I am not even from Zimbabwe. What is my own.

My position is that Britain triggered off the problems of Zimbabwe when it reneged on an earlier agreement. If Britain did not renege on the earlier agreement, Mugabe would not have decided to take over the lands and there would have been no sanctions and Zimbabweans would not be so poorly today.

Mugabe however was not very smart in dealing with the situation. He should have realised that Britain and America are capable of damaging the reputation of any regime they want to and he should have been more cunning in going about the land reforms.

He took away the land without planning for the after effects (just as America went to take out Saddam without thought).

The same thing happening to Zimbabwe can happen to Nigeria, however to a more reduced extent because we have oil and there will always be nations ready to buy oil from us. If Britain and America impose sanctions and get their supporters to alienate any government, that government is in trouble. America is too powerful and she countinues to bully the world.

beystwin:

For all you Mumus who keep arguing with me for arguing's sake, going round in circles and selectively quoting my posts (especially 4play and Sagamite, the smart mugus), watch this and hear it from the horse's mouth:

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/06/04/vinci.italy.fao.summit.cnn?iref=videosearch

So I suggest you all shut the h*ll up because you have no idea what is going on there. You are the real Mumus.

(I know you still won't believe it even after hearing the truth and you will continue to argue uselessy, calling Mugabe a liar as if you are one of the members of his government; but just for the record, I tried).

I wash my hands off this issue. I am not even from Zimbabwe. What is my own.

Oh my God.

In your wise world, what is "going on there" is what Mugu-gabe tells you.

You take Mugu-gabe's rants as facts.

I bet you would believe him when he tells you that it is the FBI and M15 that are killing all the opposition activists and beat up Tsvangirai just to make him look like he is holding on to power. You know they only asked Mugu-gabe to use the police headquarters.

I bet you would believe him if he said that it is the west that sprayed his cronies he allocated majority of the seized to with some gas that made them forget advanced farming techniques hence leading to decline in food production.

Beer parlour facts, analysis, reasoning and arguments.