^^^^^^^^

Now you just confirmed you did not read the thread. The guys hailing you have been shut up since. They found out they have been fighting the wrong battle. Lol....but is Ok, winning people to their side not GOD's side is a sign of their definition of 'salvation.'

Alwaystrue: ^^^^^^^^

Now you just confirmed you did not read the thread. The guys hailing you have been shut up since. They found out they have been fighting the wrong battle. Lol....but is Ok, winning people to their side not GOD's side is a sign of their definition of 'salvation.'

You are really an extremely very dishonest character, you ought to change your moniker urgently except it's meant to be an oxymoron.

Deuteronomy 18:18-19
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and HE SHALL SPEAK UNTO THEM ALL THAT I SHALL COMMAND HIM
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto MY WORDS which HE SHALL SPEAK IN MY NAME, I will require it of him


John 14:23-24
IF ANYONE LOVES ME, he will KEEP My WORD; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep MY WORDS; and the word which you hear is NOT MINE but the FATHER's WHO SENT ME

Amen

Alwaystrue: Deuteronomy 18:18-19
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and HE SHALL SPEAK UNTO THEM ALL THAT I SHALL COMMAND HIM
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto MY WORDS which HE SHALL SPEAK IN MY NAME, I will require it of him


John 14:23-24
IF ANYONE LOVES ME, he will KEEP My WORD; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep MY WORDS; and the word which you hear is NOT MINE but the FATHER's WHO SENT ME

Amen

My sister go and announce to your church members that tithing isn't a
new testament principle.I know how painful it is going to be.Aware that
Ɣ☺u will lose your oil well, Ɣ☺u will hold on to anything even if it means
twisting the scriptures to satisfy your whims and to silence your conscience.
It is akin to a drowning man who will hold on to anything,even a straw as
an anchor.If fornication and stealing are that bad and Paul mentioned it 1cor7vs 2
If tithing was that important as to attract a curse and the devourer when not
Paid,why didn't paul tell the church?

^^^^^^
You asked someone that question, a few minutes ago. Please wait for him to answer you. Then I will bring my own response. If he fails to then be rest assured that he knows the answer already. We will see who is dishonest afterall.
If you still cannot wait, patiently read the thread and see all the answers. I can see you just came in mid-stream.


Suddenly, you have nothing more to say concerning the scriptures I posted? I have realised no one can argue with scriptures indeed.
Thank you.

Alwaystrue: .


Suddenly, you have nothing more to say concerning the scriptures I posted? I have realised no one can argue with scriptures indeed.
Thank you.

You always quote out of context scriptures that are irrelevant to the issue at stake that is why nobody responds to the scriptures you post.

Alwaystrue: ^^^^^^
You asked someone that question, a few minutes ago. Please wait for him to answer you. Then I will bring my own response. If he fails to then be rest assured that he knows the answer already. We will see who is dishonest afterall.
If you still cannot wait, patiently read the thread and see all the answers. I can see you just came in mid-stream.


Suddenly, you have nothing more to say concerning the scriptures I posted? I have realised no one can argue with scriptures indeed.
Thank you.

There is no record that Abraham practiced tithing. It was only mentioned once. He never instructed Isaac or Jacob to tithe! Isaac never tithed nor instructed Jacob to tithe! Jacob promised God he will give tithe with a condition. Jacob never instructed his 12 children to tithe. Saying Abraham practiced tithing is false. No such account in the bible

^^^^^^^
How many times was it on record that Abraham met with the Priest of God....? Get your answer from there and be happy.

If we r Abraham's seed as new testament saints,we have paid our tithes when he paid tithe to Melchizedek just as the Bible opined that the leviths paid theirs while in Abraham's loin.The tithe was paid for all priest n if u are a priest,as all new testament saints are then u r covered. However, we now give God our all and not 10% because He owns us and all that we have.

Quite amusing comments. Been busy... However, the questions i promised to answer are still on my mind. I will attend to them in an hour or two.
It is well.

delastbishop: If we r Abraham's seed as new testament saints,we have paid our tithes when he paid tithe to Melchizedek just as the Bible opined that the leviths paid theirs while in Abraham's loin.The tithe was paid for all priest n if u are a priest,as all new testament saints are then u r covered. However, we now give God our all and not 10% because He owns us and all that we have.

Read Hebrews chapter seven.. Here is verse eight
In this case mortal men
receive tithes, but in that case
one receives them, of whom
it is witnessed that he lives
on. NASB
And here men that die receive
tithes; but there he receives
them, of whom it is
witnessed that he lives.
KJV2000
Moreover here frail mortal
men receive tithes: there one
receives them about whom
there is evidence that he is
alive. Weymouth

It`s a pitty that many people,mostly christians read the bible without common under standing of the word.
Tithing is not a new testament doctrine,rather if anyone is willing to Tithe let him do so without being compelled to do so.
Abraham and Jacob
The first biblical mention of tithing is in Genesis 14. After four Mesopotamian kings had taken Lot captive, Abraham attacked them and recovered all the booty. After his victory, the king of Sodom came out to meet him, and so did Melchizedek, a priest of God. Melchizedek blessed Abraham, and then Abraham “gave him a tenth of everything” (Genesis 14:20).

The text does not tell us whether Abraham had ever tithed before, or ever tithed afterwards. Perhaps it was a custom of his culture. Abraham was generous, and gave the rest of his booty to the king of Sodom (verses 23-24). Abraham kept all of God’s laws that were relevant in his day (Genesis 26:5), but Genesis does not tell us whether tithing was a law in Abraham’s day. Many of God’s decrees and requirements were built around the nation of Israel and the Levitical priesthood and tabernacle. Abraham could not have kept such decrees and laws. He may have tithed regularly, but we cannot prove it.

The next mention of tithing is in Genesis 28:20-22. Jacob had a miraculous dream at Bethel. In the morning, Jacob vowed to tithe if God helped him during his journey. He was trying to make a bargain with God. He wanted special help, and in return for that help, he was willing to worship God, and to tithe as a part of that worship. Tithing may have been part of the common worship practices of that time and culture, or it may have been an extra-special vow for those who desperately desired divine help.

Firstlings
Biblical commands about tithing are generally about grain, wine and oil.1 A different system of giving was required for some animals. In the last plague on Egypt, God killed the firstborn male of every animal and human, but he spared the Israelites and their animals. Therefore, God claimed ownership of every Israelite firstborn and firstling male animal (Exodus 13:2; Numbers 3:13).

This applied not only to the generation that left Egypt,2 but every future generation as well. Firstlings of clean animals were to be given to the priests and sacrificed (Numbers 18:15-17); priests and people ate them during the festivals (Deuteronomy 15:19-20; 12:6, 17; 14:23). Unclean animals and humans were to be redeemed (Exodus 13:12-15; 34:19-20). This continued to be the law in Nehemiah’s day (Nehemiah 10:36) and in Jesus’ day (Luke 2:23).


The people also gave firstfruits of their harvest (Exodus 23:19; 34:26; Leviticus 2:14), but these firstfruits do not seem to be a fixed percentage.

Tithes
Tithing was required on flocks: “every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod”3 (Leviticus 27:32). Was this in addition to the firstlings, or was it instead of firstlings? We do not know exactly how these laws would be administered. It is not necessary for us to take a position on these details.

“A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord” (Leviticus 27:30).4 The tithes and firstfruits belonged to God, and he assigned the Levites to receive them on his behalf (Numbers 18:12-13, 21, 24). They could keep 90 percent of what they were given, but had to give 10 percent as an offering (verses 26-32).

Tithing was done in the days of Hezekiah (2 Chr. 31:5-6), Nehemiah (Nehemiah 10:35-39; 12:44) and Jesus (Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42). In Malachi’s day, tithing was required (Malachi 3:8-10), and physical blessings were promised for obedience, just as physical blessings were promised for obedience to the old covenant.

Additional tithes?
God gave the tithes to the Levites, but the people could eat their tithes during festivals (Deuteronomy 12:5-7, 17-19; 14:23). Some have concluded that Deuteronomy is talking about an additional tithe, a festival tithe. It is possible to have two tithes, but it is not possible to have two sets of firstborn animals. The firstlings were holy to the Lord, and given to the Levites (Numbers 18:15-17), but Deuteronomy 15:19-20 says that they were eaten by the people. Apparently the firstlings were shared between the original owners and the Levites. It is possible that the same is true of the tithe.5

The people needed a tithe for the festivals, since the festivals constituted about 5 percent of the year, plus travel time. During sabbatical years, farmers would not have their regular income, so they may not have been able to go to every festival in every year. Or perhaps they saved the festival tithe from year to year.

At the end of every three years of farming, the Israelites were to set aside a tithe for the Levites, resident aliens, orphans and widows (Deuteronomy 14:28-29; 26:12-15). It is not clear whether this was an alternative use of a previous tithe, or an additional tithe.6

Tithing in the new covenant
Now let us consider whether tithing is required in the new covenant. Tithing is mentioned only three or four times in the New Testament. Jesus acknowledged that the Pharisees were very careful about tithing (Luke 18:12), and he said that they should not leave it undone (Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42). Tithing, like other old covenant rules and rituals, was a law at the time Jesus spoke. Jesus criticized the Pharisees not for tithing, but for treating tithing as more important than mercy, love, justice and faithfulness.

The only other New Testament mention of tithing is in Hebrews. The fact that Abraham was blessed by and paid tithes to Melchizedek illustrates the superiority of Melchizedek and Jesus Christ over the Levitical priesthood (Hebrews 7:1-10). The passage then goes on to note that “when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also” (verse 12).

There was a change of the priesthood from the Levites to Jesus Christ, and this implies a change in the law that assigned the Levites to be priests. How much has been changed? Hebrews says that the old covenant is obsolete. The package of laws that commanded tithes to be given to the Levites is obsolete.

Humans should honor God by voluntarily returning some of the blessings he gives them — this is still a valid principle. The only place that a percentage is required is within the old covenant. There is good precedent for tithing before Sinai, but no proof that it was required.

Responding to the better covenant
Under the old covenant, tithing was required for the support of the old covenant ministers. The Israelites were required to give 10 percent — and their blessing was only a physical one! Christians in the new covenant have much better blessings — spiritual ones. How much more willingly ought we to give in thankfulness for the eternal blessings we have in Christ Jesus?

The Israelites were commanded to give 10 percent under a covenant that could not make them perfect (Hebrews 7:19; 9:9). How much more joyfully should we give to God under the new covenant? We have the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, which does cleanse our conscience (9:14). And yet it seems that in America today, even though we have so much more than the Israelites did, people give on average a much smaller percentage. Many people give less to the church than they spend on luxury items. Some people cannot give very much, but many people could if they wanted to. God calls on us to examine ourselves, to examine our priorities, and to be generous.

The old covenant gave us condemnation; the new covenant gives us justification and peace with God. How much more should we be willing to give freely and generously so God’s work can be done in the world — to proclaim the gospel, to declare the new covenant ministry that gives us true life, and gives that message of life to others?

People who entrust their lives to Jesus Christ do not worry about whether tithing is commanded in the New Testament. People who are being transformed by Christ to be more like Christ are generous. They want to give as much as possible to support the gospel and to support the poor. Christians should give generously — but giving is a result of their relationship with God, not a way to earn it. We are given grace through faith, not through tithing

@Poster[b], If you have got gullible lots to extort and buy your private jets without questioning you better don't come and rub it on our face here[/b]

yes oooooooooo

theoctopus:

There is no record that Abraham practiced tithing. It was only mentioned once. He never instructed Isaac or Jacob to tithe! Isaac never tithed nor instructed Jacob to tithe! Jacob promised God he will give tithe with a condition. Jacob never instructed his 12 children to tithe. Saying Abraham practiced tithing is false. No such account in the bible

How many times did our Lord Jesus Christ say "Except a man be born again"? Why do we preach and believe this since He only mentioned it once?

Alwaystrue:

^^^^^^^
How many times was it on record that Abraham met with the Priest of God....? Get your answer from there and be happy.

Good question. I hope that they get it.

Gal 3:10 (NRS) All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."
A point often made is that since Abram gave 10 percent of the war-spoils to Melchizedek, the tithe came before the law and is thus not a part of it.
In a word, nonsense. For example, God killed an animal to provide a "covering" for Adam and Eve, and Able got this right in his approach to God by way of sacrifice, long before the sacrificial "covenant" spelled out the details. So did Abraham, Jacob and many others predating "the Law". Does this mean we should still kill animals in sacrifice, since Able and Abraham did so before the Law of Moses was formally established? No. This would be so flimsy an excuse logically that it could only be made by someone with a strong hankering for the old wine. (Luke 5:39) Good grief, how far away from Christ do we want to go, and with what faulty logic as an excuse? What next, we can't eat "apples" from certain trees... should be carried into the "new covenant"? In Christ the religious law is dispatched with in totality, and to embrace any part of it is to tacitly reject the reality of the incarnation of Christ and the promises of the New Covenant.

Imagine that someone actually asserted that we should not eat from certain apple trees because "this command predates the law, and thus is not part of the old or new covenant". Wouldn't this be a clear symptom of liking the old wine better than the new? Wouldn't it also hark of an ignorance of biblical history and a penchant for religious myth as well? Was it an "apple", as per popular fable, or a fig? What the tithe actually is in scripture is dealt with elsewhere, but for the purpose here we need to look at what happened between Abram and Melchizedek in context.

Melchizedek did not receive a tithe in the Deuteronomy 14:22-29 sense, obviously, even though the same Hebrew word is used since it was a "tenth". Yet the context was different in many aspects. In the case of Melchizedek it was a "spoils of war" issue; more like a tribute or tax than the tithe. Melchizedek was a king and priest and had a higher standing than Abraham who was at that time a wanderer without a home, and thus Abraham paid tribute to "the greater". This is the point of the citation in the New Testament. For the purposes of the point of the writer of Hebrews, the amount (5/10/20/50%) is not the point--it is that Abraham paid homage as a lesser to a greater. "The Tithe" in the old covenant had little to do with homage, rather the opposite. The greater were to give to the lesser (alien, Levites, widows, etc.) as can be seen in the definition of the tithe in Dt 14:22-29

Heb 7:4 (NIV) Just think how great he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder!
From this precedent, and since Melchizedek was a priest as well as a king, the Old Testament priests got a sort of "tax" of 10% payments that were also termed "tithes" as a means to fund the temple, as well as getting gifts from Kings (later), and being included in the OT "tithe party" (Dt 14 style), as well as getting to eat the meat offered in sacrifice, etc., etc. As you can see, the Levites had multiple sources of income and providence, but the rules were strict: they were not allowed to own anything, they had no inheritance in this life. Their focus had to be on God, since by definition they could not own anything.
The spiritual point of this is full of meaning for us. The "priests" are not the clergy, right? As Russell Hobbs likes to say: "You are a priest of the Most High God!" yet our minds easily snap back to false religious notions that the Old Covenant priests were replaced by Pastors or Popes or Clergy. It is not so. If there is an application here, it is to all believers, not just a few.

So what is God saying here? We (the Levites, the priests of God) are to have no inheritance? It think so. Consider the lilies. Consider the sparrows. Sound familiar?

It is a hard teaching for "the rich", and not many will enter the kingdom. But with God, all things are possible.

Luke 14:33 (Phi) "Only the man who says goodbye to all his possessions can be my disciple."
In conclusion, remember that we are no longer under the shadow law in any sense, certainly not in a small detail of how the old-covenant priesthood was funded. Along these lines--if you have not read it already--I highly recommend the message entitled "The New Legalism".
The new covenant makes most every aspect of the old covenant more severe and radical. All might be required, and presently. Jesus might look at us and say, "Sell all you have..." or just a field, or perhaps something else. There is no telling, and thus we must get rid of all sense of possessing. Jesus made the Old Covenant seem easy in many respects: "I tell you, if a man lusts in his heart..." and "He who hates has committed murder..." and so on. In like manner, Jesus takes giving/tithing/tribute to the radical and ultimate extreme. All is required, even if you get to keep some of it for a time. <smiles> Our treasure is elsewhere.

Mt 6:24-34 (NIV) "No-one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money. Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life? And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labour or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendour was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."

Alwaystrue: ^^^^^^
You asked someone that question, a few minutes ago. Please wait for him to answer you. Then I will bring my own response. If he fails to then be rest assured that he knows the answer already. We will see who is dishonest afterall.
If you still cannot wait, patiently read the thread and see all the answers. I can see you just came in mid-stream.


Suddenly, you have nothing more to say concerning the scriptures I posted? I have realised no one can argue with scriptures indeed.
Thank you.

You're a fraud and I doubt you're a lady behind the moniker. You're the biggest proof on this thread that tithing for Christians is a fraud. Your inconsistencies and scriptural gymnastics give you away. I'm so thrilled to see other Christians who do not readily join these discussions give you answers.

You claim tithing is for Christians, yet all the apostles forgot to mention in all their epistles that Christians should pay it. Idumuose is only asking a rhetorical question my dear. He knows the answer already because he's seeing the light.

You should notice everybody has stopped responding to you because you're a joke. Go home and cook for your husband my dear and that is if you're really a woman.

Go and create another ID. You've lost whatever reputation you had with this one, at least with me.

Please, read youe bible well. We are under GRACE in Christ Jesus with a better promise not the LAW.The LAW was to make way for the promise to be fulfilled through christ Jesus.
Tithing for Israel is not the same as the tithe that we hear of today-- in fact tithing was rarely money. There were three tithes in the Old Covenant. More often tithes were the crops, the produce of the soil was to be tithed, grains, the fruit of the trees, every year new wine and oil, the firstborn of their herds and flocks (Leviticus 27:30-33). If the place the nation of Israel were to tithe and was too far away to carry their goods (such as Jerusalem), it could be exchanged for money. They were to use their money to buy anything the owner chose: cattle, sheep, wine (Deuteronomy 14:22-26). Every third year the tithe was to be reserved as a festival tithe where they brought out all the tithe, and their produce where the Levite, the stranger, the orphan, the widow, the poor who were in their town, could come and eat and be content (Deuteronomy 14:28-29; 26:12-15). You can expect not to see those who teach tithing as an obligation to practice the third year tithe.

The degree that prosperity teachers manipulate God's people is more than most schemers in the world would dare to do, and they do it without shame. It's all done in the name of our God. The apostles made it clear “But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the Word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth”(2 Corinthians 4:2-3).

No other Scripture has had greater mileage than Malachi 3:10 “Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this,” says the Lord of hosts, “if I will not open for you the windows of heaven, and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows.” Malachi 3 has been greatly misused for God's blessing to come to his people. A closer look of this verse in the context shows that it has nothing to do with wealth or material blessings. We first find this same term used by God back in Genesis 7:11 the windows of heaven were open and rain contributed to the flood, as the fountains of the deep were broken open. In Genesis 8:2 it says the windows of heaven were stopped and the rain from heaven was restrained. Isaiah 24:18 it also mentions the windows from on high; this phrase is consistently used for water. In Genesis it was a judgment. In Malachi 3 it was to be a blessing on their crops. The nation lived by their agriculture (Husbandry) and depended upon the rain. God's blessing had to do with his provision of water; no rain and they would starve. If they did not give God their tithes which was part of the blessing in the Mosaic covenant God would bring a curse on them, the ground would not yield food because he would not allow it to rain.

The Pharisees said they have faith but they were more interested in the money, in fact Jesus said: “Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.” ( so did Judas John 12:5-6). Then Jesus scolded them saying “what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God,” and He then summed it up by giving another parable--the rich man and Lazarus. The poor man entered where the faithful were, finding rest in Abraham's bosom but the rich man entered torment. The rich man was punished, not because he was rich but because he lived for self, he had no compassion for poor Lazarus whom he walked by and ignored each day as he sat by his gate.

The weightier matters of the law, what are they? The Christians are to focus on giving to those in need. “And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these” (Mk. 12:31; Gal. 5:14). “Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ” (Gal. 6:2). The principle is to help others, especially the less fortunate brethren (following in principle Deut.14,26)

You'll notice that those promoters of tithing will always use the Old covenant law to justify their teaching this method of blessing. What the prosperity teachers do is bring people out from grace and under law. Under the New Testament covenant there is no specific amount required to give, you determine the amount you can freely give. “Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver.”


Today we find the poor desiring to be rich and the rich often look upon themselves as blessed and using their abundance as proof of their spiritual condition. They have trained themselves in covetousness ignoring Mark 4:19: “the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires of other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.” One can have an abundance of material blessings and still be bankrupt in their spirituality. We have Jesus saying this about the church of Laodicea. We have too many examples of spiritual giants who have followed this path of abundance to their own demise, Solomon for one. Jesus spoke about money probably more than any other subject, but often with warnings and rebukes, not as a blessing promised for all who follow Him. From today's prosperity preaching one would never know Jesus said to “Take heed and beware of covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of the things he possesses” (Luke 12:15-2). We are cautioned through the whole body of Scripture to be careful of coveting and pursuing riches. Solomon who had more money than most of us will ever see wrote in Proverbs 28:20-23: “A faithful man will abound with blessings, but he who hastens to be rich will not go unpunished. To show partiality is not good, because for a piece of bread a man will transgress. A man with an evil eye hastens after riches, and does not consider that poverty will come upon him. He who rebukes a man will find more favor afterward than he who flatters with the tongue.” Solomon gave both sides of this issue, being poor and being rich. A faithful man is one who serves the Lord no matter what he has, much or little. In other words, we are to be content no matter what we have. We can mistakenly focus our pursuit on only the blessings without realizing that we have abandoned a spiritual life and moved ourselves into a position of severe chastening. Romans 8:32 “He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? We already have promised what we need according to the love and provision found in Christ Jesus.

Some teach tithing is the only way the local church is to be supported and tithing to the local church determines a person's spirituality, some have gone as far as to suppose that tithing is a requirement of salvation, if one does not give 10% they are not a true Christian. Some teach from Malachi 3 that you are cursed! What manipulation. If you want to understand the book of Malachi, read Malachi 4:4, “Remember the Law of Moses…” its not just tithing. If you choose by obligation to submit yourself to even part of the Law of Moses, you are obligated to keep it all. For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the Law, to perform them” (Galatians 3:10). It is actually the opposite, if you tithe by obligation then you are bound by all the law. Galatians 5:4 explains “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”

If you run into financial difficulties and are unable to feed your family or pay the mortgage, you are not obligated to continue giving 10% to the church. The Apostle Paul said in 1 Tim 5:8, “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” This is ones first ministry; rest assured the church will get along without your money.

If you have set aside money for your family needs, but do not use it for them and instead pay it to a church or a ministry as tithes, or as an offering of seed to get out of debt your are not being a good steward. If you owe money on your house don't fall for the scammers that say the N10,000 you have saved for the mortgage will not pay for the house so send it in as a seed to get more money. They are feeding on your carnal nature and making you covet--be responsible to God. Scripture does not teach to give more than you can afford, nor give so God can give you more. There was no mention of the poor becoming rich in the gospel, Jesus did not promise a hundred-fold blessing. “For there are many unruly, vain talkers and deceivers, especially they of the circumcision: whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucere's sake” (Titus 1:10-11). Their motivation is money, what is your motivation? It has been said “He that serves God for money will serve the Devil for better wages”(Roger L'eStrange). What did Jesus tell us, you can't serve God and Mammon at the same time.

If your family is hungry and you need help to pay the rent you shouldn't be obligated to tithe the church should instead be helping you-willingly. That is what they are there for. We have this example in the early church (Acts 4:37). It is to be the “love of Christ that constrains us” (2 Corinthians 5:14). For it is the heart of God to help those in need, in money if necessary. We as the church should be looking for opportunities to give to those less fortunate around us not to those who already have it all. I hear of too many stories of rich ministries being supported for years and then someone who is hurting asks for some help and they get none. Where is your motivation? Is it of legalism, by law, or from the heart. It is to be the Lord Jesus reaching out and meeting the needs of others through us -- love is the principle that governs the Christians life, it is active not passive. “Though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not (His) love, it profits me nothing (1 Corinthians 13:3). Yes you can actually give it all away as required and still not do it as a response from your heart.

Then there is the rich young ruler who gives us all an example. Mark 10:21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.” The man could not do this. Jesus did not tell the man to tithe to him. After the rich man left Jesus looked around and said to His disciples, “How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!” (Mark 10:23) Those who had less were often able to respond more easily because it did not get in the way, they had less to give up to follow Him.

Jesus did not teach to give to his ministry but to help the less fortunate “Sell what you have and give alms; provide yourselves money bags which do not grow old, a treasure in the heavens that does not fail” (Luke 12:33-34). Zacchaeus understood this and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord, I give half of my goods to the poor; and if I have taken anything from anyone by false accusation, I restore fourfold.” And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham” (Luke 19:8-9). Want to be blessed, don't give to get more, give from your heart to others that are needy because it is the right thing to do.

We should not be supporting false teachers and those who abuse the money and the gospel for gain. We should be looking to support those who are sincere and are in need of help in doing the Lords work. Those who are involved in full-time ministry are to be supported by the people they serve (1 Cor 9:7-14, 1 Tim 5:17-18), and those who do ministry and mission work need to be supported by those who are home with the goods. A careful review of New Testament giving reveals to us that our contributions should not only be to support our local church and ministries, but also meet the basic needs of our fellow Christians (Acts 2:44-45, 4:32-37; 1 Cor. 16:1-3; 2 Cor. 8:1-13; 1 Tim. 6:17-19). There was organized giving within local assemblies to care for believing widows and orphans who had no other family to rely on (Acts 6:1-4; 1 Tim. 5:1-16).

There is NO example of the early Church (book of Acts) “tithing.” In Acts 4:32-37, there were many wealthy Christians who sold portions of their assets and put the money at the Apostles' feet. Was it for the apostles? No, but for the Christian community, those in need. The apostles distributed it. The only time we find a judgment having to do with money is in Acts 5:1-11. Ananias and Sapphira were condemned for lying, because they held back part of the proceeds from the sale of the land that they had promised along with everyone else. This had absolutely nothing to do with “tithing,” as much as it had to do with keeping their word, let your yes be yes, and no, no.

Proverbs 22:16 “He who oppresses the poor to increase his riches, And he who gives to the rich, will surely come to poverty.” The prosperity teachers increases their wealth by giving unbiblical promises of becoming prosperous to the poor and those giving their money to them are doing what this Scripture says not to. The poor, the homeless, the fatherless, and the widow have always been the focus of God (Exodus 23:11; Deuteronomy 14:28-29, 24:17-22; Psalm 12:5, 72:4,11-12). Today they are neglected you can expect not to see those who teach tithing as an obligation to practice the third year tithe. Every third year the tithe was to be reserved as a festival tithe where they brought out all the tithe, and their produce where the Levite, the stranger, the orphan, the widow, the poor who were in their town, could come and eat and be content (Deuteronomy 14:28-29; 26:12-15). How much consideration we have for the poor and needy, is an indication of our spiritual condition (1 John 3:17, James 2:1-9). Seen any poor or needy invited to any big parties at the ministries expense lately?

Our giving is to be voluntary, willing, and cheerful as an offering. As believers we are to be generous by sharing our material possessions with the needy and support Christian ministries (authentic ones). Every Christian should give to the place they are fed by and support the work that is taking place in their own community by the local church they attend. Giving to our church, missionaries, wherever we think the need is greater or where the Holy Spirit may put on our heart. Other offerings would be for ministries they would like to bless in their work. In principle, 10 percent may be a good goal; some may be able to give much more, some less. One should not be made guilty for whatever amount they give; the only requirement in the New Testament is to give cheerfully and willingly (Romans 12:6,8; 2 Corinthians 9:7). Tithing to get out of debt is not the answer for relieving anyone of any money problems; it's not a Biblical practice but a myth started by the prosperity teachers of seed faith. We need to teach responsibility in handling our money. It’s time to give to those who really need the support for God's work.

The New Testament when it speaks about giving goes against “tithing as a doctrine. 2 Cor. 9:7 says, “Every man according as he purposed in his heart, so let him give: not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loves a cheerful giver.” Notice there is no amount mentioned, it what you have settled in your own heart. The Greek word for cheerful is hilaros, it is the English word “hilarious,” meaning give in a joyful, cheery, and exuberant manner. We should be happy and joyful to give to expand God's Kingdom. We are specifically told not to give grudgingly. The Greek word for grudgingly is lupe. It carries the meaning of sorrow, grief, being annoyed. If you are compelled to give, or give out of necessity and you have sorrow and annoyance in your heart don't give. If someone has convinced you or forced you to give by making you feel guilty or promised you a greater return, then you are no longer a cheerful giver.

The Apostle Paul also says in 1 Cor. 16:2, “On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come. Again, it is not “tithing,” only giving as one has purposed in his heart and as one has prospered, you choose the amount. God does not pressure us, or manipulate us by guilt or hold a bonus out to us to motivate us to give. Have you ever noticed Jesus did not take any offerings!
Love is to be our motivation, not compulsion or legalism (Hosea 6:6; Micah 6:6-8; Mark 12:28-34; 1 Cor . 13:1-7). The more a person loves God the more he will want to give to see his work exp and, and this not always mean money.

Again I'm not saying ministries do not need support, they do, but to twist the word of God to mean something it does not to get this support by promising hundred/ thousand fold blessings is seditious. Money itself is not the issue, but how you relate to money; God is looking at our heart, what's our motivation. We are not to look to the “here and now” for our reward, but toward heaven where our treasure is being stored up. If you give to get more, to increase that is giving for reaping on earth. Where are you looking, where is your heart today? Jesus said: “where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” Our Motivation is what is important; we should not give up something for the purpose to get something better, and neither should we give something to get something.

We should all support those we can in ministry, we should support the churches work, we should also look where God can use us to support those in need.

Under the conditional covenant of the Old Testament tithing was a necessity. It is not a command in the New Testament, it is a principle -- we give out of love, from the heart because we are under a new unconditional covenant not the Old Testament law.

THE TRIAL OF A PASTOR ON MULTIPLE COUNTS OF EXTORTION

JUDGE: Mr. Jones you have been CHARGED WITH MULTIPLE COUNTS OF EXTORTION. Your crime spree
covers 20 years and thousands of victims. You have defrauded people out of their money with fear and manipulation, telling them they had to tithe 10% of their income as per the LAW to your Registered organization (called Church) and that God would bless them if they did. You also told them that if they didn't tithe God would curse them. How do you plead?
MR. JONES: I plead not guilty your Honor,
I have done nothing wrong. I have only preached what the Bible says. In the Bible Abraham tithed to
Melchizedek and God blessed him for his faithful giving. The Bible even says he was rich in silver and
gold.
JUDGE: Is it not true, Mr. Jones, that in Genesis chapter 13 verse 2 the Bible says Abraham was rich with livestock, silver and gold?
MR. JONES: Yes, you are exactly right, that's what I just told you.
JUDGE: Ok, we read about Abraham being a rich man in chapter 13 but it is not until Genesis chapter 14
that we read about Abraham's tithe to Melchizedek. So Abraham was already a rich man before he
tithed to Melchizedek, wasn't he? MR. JONES: Yes, I suppose you are right.
JUDGE: So his riches were not the result of his tithe to Melchizedek?
MR. JONES: No.
JUDGE: Mr. Jones, you also say God blessed him for his faithful giving. How many times is it recorded that
Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek?
MR. JONES: Well, just once.
JUDGE: So the Bible never said that he gave week after week?
MR. JONES: No it does not.
JUDGE: Where did Abraham get the things that he gave to Melchizedek?
MR. JONES: Well the Bible says it was from the plunders of war?
JUDGE: So you are telling me that he gave from the plunders of war?
MR. JONES: Yes that's what the Bible says.
JUDGE: So he basically took things that were not really his in the first place and gave them as the tithe?
MR. JONES: That is what the scripture seems to indicate.
JUDGE: Is it recorded that he ever took anything from his own possessions and tithed them to Melchizedek or anyone else?
MR. JONES: I guess not.
JUDGE: You guess not, you are a teacher and you are only guessing; is it or is it not written that he ever
gave any of his own possessions as a tithe to anyone?
MR. JONES: No it is not written anywhere that I have seen.
JUDGE: Is it recorded as to what exactly Abraham did give Melchizedek?
MR. JONES: I believe it says plunder?
JUDGE: So plunder could be any number of things?
MR. JONES: Yes, I suppose
JUDGE: It could have been food, cattle, sheep, the people's possessions or any number of things. It does not say it was all money correct?
MR. JONES: Yes you are correct; it does not say just money.
JUDGE: As a matter of fact money is never mentioned in that account at all; is that correct, Mr. Jones?
MR. JONES: Yes your Honor, money is never mentioned just goods and food and people.
JUDGE: So there is no way you can say with any certainty that Abraham in fact gave Melchizedek
any money at all?
MR. JONES: That is right.
JUDGE: I only have one last question for you, Mr. Jones; did God
command Abraham to give this plunder tithe to Melchizedek?
MR. JONES: No, it appears that he did this voluntarily.

JUDGE: So are you trying to tell me that because of this voluntary, one time gift by Abraham, that may not have even consisted of money, all Christians everywhere are obligated to bring 10% of their
weekly paycheck to a local Registered Organization-church?
JUDGE: CONSIDERING ALL THE EVIDENCE I WOULD SAY YOU ARE BEYOND ANY SHADOW OF A DOUBT
GUILTY OF DELIBERATELY TRYING TO MAKE THE SCRIPTURES SAYS THINGS THEY HAVE NOT SAID FOR FINANCIAL GAIN.
MR. JONES: Ok your Honor, I can see how foolish I was to try and use the story of Melchizedek to try
and get the people to tithe money. But there are many other verses that will support my belief on
tithing. Jacob said he would give God 10% of everything. I think we should follow his example.
JUDGE: Let's see what Jacob said. Please read the verse you are talking about for me Mr. Jones.
MR. JONES: In Genesis chapter 28 starting at verse 20 it says. Jacob vowed a vow, saying, "If God will
be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and clothing to put
on, so that I come again to my father's house in peace, and Yahweh will be my God, then this
stone, which I have set up for a pillar, will be God's house. Of all that you will give me I will surely
give the tenth to you."
JUDGE: You said we should follow Jacobs's example, is that right Mr. Jones?
MR. JONES: Yes that is right, he vowed to give a tenth and we should too.
JUDGE: Let me point out one thing for you Mr. Jones, Jacob said he would Give God a tenth, ONLY if He
blessed him first. So as you said previously, we should follow Jacob's example and tell God that
we will only give him a tenth if he blesses us first. Is that right?
MR. JONES: That is not what I meant.
JUDGE: What did you mean then?
MR. JONES: That we should give God a tenth also.
JUDGE: THERE YOU GO AGAIN, TRYING TO MAKE THE SCRIPTURE SAY WHAT YOU WANT IT TO SAY FOR YOUR BENEFIT. I would also like you to tell me the scriptures that say that Jacob kept his vow with God. I would also like to know where he gave the tenth to because there was no temple or Levites to give it to at that time.
MR. JONES: I cannot think of any scriptures that say where or if he ever tithed after his vow.
JUDGE: It seems fairly obvious to me that Jacob made a voluntary and conditional vow to God. This in
no way can be used as a reason to demand others to bring their income to you or any other place.
MR. JONES: I do have a few more scriptures that I believe will show that we are supposed to tithe.
JUDGE: You have not said anything yet to convince me one little bit that people are obligated to tithe
money to the local organizational institutions—churches and that you were justified in what you
were doing. YOU HAVE TAKEN SCRIPTURE AND MISAPPLIED IT TO YOUR BELIEFS AND FOR YOUR GAIN.
But in order to be fair to you I will allow you to present more evidence.
MR. JONES: In the book of Malachi chapter 3 starting at verse 8 it says, will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, In what have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the store-house, that there may be food in my house, and prove me now with
this, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a
blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. So you see your Honor, we are commanded to bring the tithes into the storehouse or God will curse us.
JUDGE: Answer me this Mr. Jones, Who was God Speaking to here?
Mr. Jones: To the People of Israel
JUDGE: Can you please read Malachi 2: 1 Please Mr. Jones.
Mr. Jones: Now This command is for you O PRIEST!!
JUDGE: Did God stop talking to the Priest in chapter 3 Mr. Jones?
Mr. Jones: No your Honor!
JUDGE: ANSWER ME THIS MR. JONES, WERE YOU AWARE THAT GOD NEVER REQUIRED ANYONE TO TITHE MONEY?
MR. JONES: No I didn't know that.
JUDGE: THE TITHE SPOKEN OF HERE WAS ALWAYS EDIBLE PRODUCTS NEVER MONEY.
MR. JONES: well your Honor that is because they didn't have money at the time so God had them tithe
food instead.
JUDGE: Not true, money is first mentioned in Genesis and Malachi was written hundreds of years
later. God had them bring food in so that THE LEVITES, THE FATHERLESS AND WIDOWS MAY EAT
AND BE SATISFIED. The tithe was used mainly to take care of people. Also notice it says in the verse you quoted, that there may be food in
my house. The food was the tithe. How do you completely overlook the word food in those verses?
MR. JONES: I don't know.
JUDGE: I also want you to know that these verses speak to nation, ONCE AGAIN YOU HAVE TRIED TO
COMPLETELY TAKE A SCRIPTURE OUT OF CONTEXT AND APPLY IT TO OTHERS FOR YOUR BENEFIT. Can you give me a single scripture where God changed the tithe from food to money?
MR. JONES: I do not know of any.
JUDGE: So if God never changed it from food to money who did?
MR. JONES: Man must have.
MR. JONES: I also have a New Testament scripture that will show that Jesus told us to tithe.
JUDGE: Ok let me hear it.
MR. JONES: Jesus said in Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe
mint, dill, and cumin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith. But you ought to have done these, and not to have left the other undone. See Jesus said we should
be tithing.
JUDGE: Let me ask you a question, who was Jesus talking to?
MR. JONES: The scripture says the Scribes and Pharisees.
JUDGE: Are you a scribe or Pharisee?
MR. JONES: Of course not.
JUDGE: Jesus also said in that passage, you have left undone the weightier matters of the law. What point was Jesus trying to make?
JUDGE: I think you know where I am going with this don't you?
JUDGE: I want you to take a look at that verse again. Also tell me, what were they tithing?
MR. JONES: The scripture says it was mint, dill and cumin.
JUDGE: Is money mentioned?
MR. JONES: No it was not.
JUDGE: Once again it was edible products that they were tithing, not money. Do you have anything
else you would like to say?
MR. JONES: If people only tithed edible products like the scripture says, then how would the church
survive? We have our mortgage payment, utility bills, staff salary and a host of other things that we have to pay each week. We depend on the money from the people.
JUDGE: By "church" you mean your organization isn't it, Mr. Jones? THE NEED DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE
MEANS. IN OTHER WORDS, JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE ALL THESE DEBTS DOES NOT GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO TWIST AND MANIPULATE SCRIPTURE AND CAUSE PEOPLE TO GIVE UNDER FEAR OF BEING CURSED BY GOD TO MEET YOUR NEEDS. DOES IT MR. JONES? In closing, let me recap a few
things for you Mr. Jones.
First: THE TITHE WAS NEVER MONEY!
and
Second: THE TITHE WAS USED TO TAKE CARE OF PEOPLE, NOT BUILDINGS. Paul instructs the Corinthian believers how they are to give. He says in second Corinthians chapter 9 verse 7, LET EACH MAN GIVE ACCORDING AS HE HAS DETERMINED
IN HIS HEART; not grudgingly, or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver. So each believer is
supposed to give as he or she has determined in his or her heart. If they determine to Give 10% well
and good, if they keep aside some every week to meet this more better. If you are trying to make
people give under the threat of being cursed or any other reason even blessing, you are wrong.
SOMEONE CAN NOT GIVE CHEERFULLY IF THEY ARE BEING FORCED TO GIVE. IF 'YOUR CHURCH CANNOT SURVIVE ON FREEWILL OFFERINGS MAYBE GOD IS NOT PART OF YOUR CHURCH AT ALL.
MR. JONES: I never realized all these things, I have always been taught that we had to tithe money to the
local church and that is what I have always taught. I can see now that I was completely wrong. I did not study the scripture for myself; I only took men's word for it. Yes. I AM GUILTY. I will not teach this error anymore.
Sentencing — All Arise!
PLEASE PRAY ABOUT THIS SUBJECT—
WHEN YOU SUPPORT MINISTRIES
THAT TWIST AND MANIPULATE THE
SCRIPTURES FOR FINANCIAL GAIN
YOU ARE IN FACT PARTNERING IN
SPREADING LIES AND DECEIT AND
THIS IS OF THE DEVIL, YOU WILL BE
JUDGED ALONG WITH THE DECEIVERS.

@idumuose,
There you have it. We see who is dishonest now. Thanks to God I brought less of my words and provided the witness of scriptures more. So whoever has any issues is just trying to divert attention. Lol.
So much vitrol. Yet the bible says do not bear false witness against your neighbour....but hey many say it is an 'abolished' law.
The thread is witness enough.

@kodilson,
You mean you do not understand the scriptures I posted there?
We were showing examples of the 'least of our brethen' as mentioned there as many feel it means 'the poor' only. I hope you understand now.

@Candour, tomorrow is a free day. Good opportunity to converse with you.

Biblical inter-play to always confuse people is wat most Nigeria Pastors are use to in order to get money...

In summary:-

Abram paid his Tithe willingly he wasnt commanded by God; so its not a must in the bible

It was in the law that Tithe was a command and its has certain procedures to follow. so if ur pastor is telling u that its a must; jst knw that he is practicing the Tithing of the Law. if that b the case let him follow wat the law said abt useage of the Tithe to the end (Deut.14 vs 22-29)

Also note that we are no longer under the law... thats why we dont do blood sacrifice

The pastor will tell u that Jesus has saved us from the law. if so why are u still bringing back the financial aspect of the law (Tithe to seed faith to first fruit to sacrificial offerings to thanksgiving offerings. etc)?

From church history there havent been a generation as these generations of Church leaders ( from 1980s till date) that are so crazy abt money;;;

little wonder they always twist the bible to get money from Tithe to seed faith to first fruit to sacrificial offerings to thanksgiving offerings... all these are practices of the Old testaments.

Deuteronomy 18: 22-28 states the reasons for tithe...as being to be enjoyed by the givers and for the purpose of catering for the levites, the widows, and orphans who had no share in the possessions. Therefore, the tithe was a system for sustaining society equity.
Going down to the new testament, the system of giving or collections otherwise known as offerings in present day church, was primarily for humanitarian assistance of brethren in the church, first for those within then others in mission fields, not forgetting the pastors of such assemblies (though not an excuse for demonstrating affluence). It was basically THE CHURCH FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL MEMBERS, not members for the benefit of the church(an organisation-like system). May God help the present day church...

^^^^^^
All those questions have been answered. All you need is patience to go through the thread. That is all. And it is not by force to follow the word's of Jesus. It is not even by force to believe Him so it is not a matter of complusion. All we did was to provide scriptures to back our belief.
The thread is on tithes and offerings....that is why that is the focus.
All the abuses showered so far is just a sign of immaturity and fleshyly works.

OLAADEGBU:

How many times did our Lord Jesus Christ say "Except a man be born again"? Why do we preach and believe this since He only mentioned it once?

Funny question. Jesus said you must be born again. That was a requirement clearly spelt out. Abraham gave tithe to melchizedek. That was a report of an incident, not an instruction. Abraham never said we are supposed to do it. You are the one that turned it into a doctrine that we are supposed to do. So your question is funny.

Joagbaje:

Galatians 3:7
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

We are followers of abrahamic faith. Who is the father of faith. If we are children abraham we ought to follow ABRAHAM faith.

I'm impressed so far from recent feedback that many posters and tithers have deeper understanding of these things better now.


. . . To be continued in a moment.

shame to those who claim abraham gave tithe with faith to get rich or gave to avoid a devourer.

Alwaystrue: ^^^^^^
All those questions have been answered. All you need is patience to go through the thread. That is all. And it is not by force to follow the word's of Jesus. It is not even by force to believe Him so it is not a matter of complusion. All we did was to provide scriptures to back our belief.
The thread is on tithes and offerings....that is why that is the focus.
All the abuses showered so far is just a sign of immaturity and fleshyly works.

Jesus never instructed us to tithe. In fact, our Lord Jesus only mentioned tithing twice and it was not even in a favorable light. The first mention was in Luke 18:10->, when he said two men were praying and one was boasting about his tithe and Jesus scolded him for it. The other was in Matthew 23:23->, where he scolded the pharisees for paying tithes and omitting what He called the weightier matters of the law. He actually referred to tithes as a lesser matter of the law. There is no tithing in the new testament. Anyone that preaches tithing in the new testament is just cooking up doctrines to serve his own purpose, not God's

Matt 23:23

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former

theoctopus:

Funny question. Jesus said you must be born again. That was a requirement clearly spelt out. Abraham gave tithe to melchizedek. That was a report of an incident, not an instruction. Abraham never said we are supposed to do it. You are the one that turned it into a doctrine that we are supposed to do. So your question is funny.

God bless you bro. Good question.

How can you turn an incident into a cardinal doctrine of the Church?

Communion was commanded to Christians

Baptism was commanded to Christians

Tithe was not commanded to Christians yet it is the cardinal doctrine on which the modern church is built. Is that not an indication that promoters of it are being dishonest?

We bless God more tithe captives are being set free, day-by-day!!!