Back in time as a kid exposed to too much tv and yoruba story line and native intel, i came to love the culture so much while tryint to find 'the wisdom' in it at age 12. I wish my teacher taught us about yoruba at primary 6, he said we will learn that at secondary school. i can't wait to. getting to secondary school. at Jss 1, my Yoruba teacher told me oduduwa was the father of Yoruba, i agreed because the name sound Yoruba. then she said lamurudu was the father of oduduwa. the story piss me off right there. its like "scripting"...then she started given us the apocryphal of what transpire when Buremo (Abraham) smashed the idols at Mecca and this led to the expoltion of the Yoruba.

Even as a kid, i trust my instinct, i believe my instinct very well as a prankster myself. I have good grades in class, and i know how to sense or correlate stories. i usually watch gamblers on the street as kid and see if their bait was part of the ruse. i get to know who were part of the game when they chorus whatever the leader says, but the victim never take note of this. i think thats some sort of intelligence if i'm right.

I knew that the prophet of Islam and Abraham were separated by some roughly 2500 years, but here we are, everything seems to be happening together at once: Lamurudu became the father of Oduduwa who lived in the time of Muhammed, and Lamurudu is Nimrod, Buremo is Abraham. i don't just know what to call the medley, I assume its just some sort of comedy.

How can history happen like that? I guess its some sort of revisionist exercise. i did not like the story because it did not offer me the Yoruba kind of history i was expecting, which is like "Ogbori Elemosho", Ifa stories and stuff like that, but instead, the Yoruba history i was offered was like "Genesis/Jihad rearrangement" and it felt so bad. i just forget all about it in disappointment. What later gear me was when we get to Senior Secondary and the teachers kept saying every subject is corrolary of greek, i was so disgusted. Don't our fathers have minds?

Who was "Lamurudu?"

Care to tell?

To God be the glory, I have the talent of curiosity from teen. so I wander why there was no alter or mention of 'orisa Lamurudu' ever in Yoruba. what an oversight! and this is the suppose 'grand patron' of Yoruba nation.

Why i was pissed off in class was for my disappointment over the miseducation. in my mind i know Lamurudu is Nimrod, [BK). But my frustration was, how could an ancient name come out so new and crispy? was the name kept safely somewhere all along? And nothing like Lamurudusola, lamurudele, Lamurudufemi stuff in peoples' name, ah ah Kilode! Lailai, Yoruba o jebe. Except where the history happen behind them.

No more guess work about Oduduwa's father or about the figure called Oduduwa. Oduduwa has been unveiled by the Binis. If you care to know about Oduduwa, visit Bini historians.

Also, i wonder why lamurudu name his child oduduwa as if he must to come to yoruba when grow up.

so you mean. . . . . . .

Andre Uweh: No more guess work about Oduduwa's father or about the figure called Oduduwa. Oduduwa has been unveiled by the Binis. If you care to know about Oduduwa, visit Bini historians.

Thanks for sharing. I appreciate. When the title is 'Benin origin' you discuss this oba of Benin 21st century ultra -modern version. But care not to 'enforce' your 'acceptable guesswork' as final outside here because it pleases you. Are you you Yoruba or an authority on Yoruba history? That makes a difference. Thanks.

tpia@:
so you mean. . . . . . .

Lamurudu tradition to me, is like 'kagbe omo Oba f'osun. It is a stretch of the Hamitic tradition from native angle. And that's exactly why the manuscript source of this story was send to London because it's agreeable with English explorers' version. if it is protestant, Revd. S. Johnson wont have. Well dont get me wrong, Johnson's work is in a class of its own and the best available material on Yoruba.

Andre Uweh: No more guess work about Oduduwa's father or about the figure called Oduduwa. Oduduwa has been unveiled by the Binis. If you care to know about Oduduwa, visit Bini historians.

Lmao. Andre Uweh the Tomakint a la Ngodigha!

Meanwhile, nothing is wrong with Nimrod or Canaan, only that when there is more similar materials at two different places, its quite easy to point to singularity source of the underlying tradition. More so, the name Lamurudu has no native attachment to show that Yoruba have always been familiar with it, compare to Oduduwa, or the yoruba gods for instance.

prexios: Lamurudu tradition to me, is like 'kagbe omo Oba f'osun. It is a stretch of the Hamitic tradition from native angle. And that's exactly why the manuscript source of this story was send to London because it's agreeable with English explorers' version. if it is protestant, Revd. S. Johnson wont have. Well dont get me wrong, Johnson's work is in a class of its own and the best available material on Yoruba.

du may be a keyword here, since its present in both names, just guessing.

i dont really have an opinion on the hamitic theory of lamurudu, it might be referring to the sudanic or middle eastern connections i suppose.

btw, you didnt explain why you felt yoruba may have originally been non-black.

some of the old legends place a few of oduduwa's brothers in gobir and songhay.

interestingly, gobir was the state which originally invited dan fodio into the area, according to wiki, although its possible there were fulani living in the region before then.

tpia@:



du may be a keyword here, since its present in both names, just guessing.


i dont really have an opinion on the hamitic theory of lamurudu, it might be referring to the sudanic or middle eastern connections i suppose.

btw, you didnt explain why you felt yoruba may have originally been non-black.

Not why i "felt" brother, I am a researcher sort of. I wont give such information on a free site, it is a stunner, it would feature in my future book, its not a fancy, but simple stunning scientific stuff.

however, i don't enjoy keeping people in suspense. I once said there was an ancient tradition of the Yoruba that originated with the Ketu axis of the Yoruba in the present day Dahomey which goes thus: "Mogun ayato, omo Oyinbo aise, Omo afija sinu pete erin..."

Mogun is "child of Ogun", then in that collocation you have "omo Oyinbo aise", meaning child of the white skin persona that you don't mess with. we all know Ogun is Yoruba god of war, someone you don't mess with, so to say. then he is not a black man. how so? here is the formular: "omo ogun: omo oyinbo" then Ogun is "Oyinbo".

More so, ogun is described as "onile kogun kogun ona orun." tradition says Yoruba came from Orun. Ogun was a dweller of the outskirt of a place so described Orun. the place is not a country of the black man but where the Yoruba came from. Aye is the country of the black man, we are the black people, our ancestors were not blacks, and remember I was saying something to the effect of "devolution" sometimes ago?

Now try to observe the etymology of "Osi" it means poverty. But given careful observation, that same word mean "o ti si" or Olosi, meaning someone who had become darkened. That means the early Yoruba ancestors somewhat associate black with poverty in their time, that's racism though and that's the colour we also attain as a people.

Osi is racist inclined, how would the ancestors associate poverty with their own colour if they had been blacks?

i dont get your black and poverty link.

in yorubaland, the poorer people are not proportionally more dark, do you agree?

overseas, black is associated with poverty, yes.


besides, osi is not poverty, its more like nonsense. Olosi is f.ool.

what yorubas say is adumaradan, meaning black makes the body shine.

omo oyinbo is child of oyinbo, could be a biracial reference or a european white person.

tpia@:
some of the old legends place a few of oduduwa's brothers in gobir and songhay.

interestingly, gobir was the state which originally invited dan fodio into the area, according to wiki, although its possible there were fulani living in the region before then.

the name for Hausa land among the Yoruba is Oke Oya, meaning Oya's country. Oya is the matriarch of Yoruba associated with sango, let me be consistence, i once told Tony spike that Oya is one and same with Sango, and that Sango was a woman going by the dress-code of the Sango adherents. They hold different opinion though, tony Spike believe Sango was Sargon.

Oya and the early Yoruba people dwelled at the North at inception, then it was from this point that the Yoruba proceed southward. then the river Niger was named after the historic Oya, who was one of the brain behind the seperation of Yoruba from her parent state. Oya means faction or offshoot.

tpia@:
i dont get your black and poverty link.

in yorubaland, the poorer people are not proportionally more dark, do you agree?

overseas, black is associated with poverty, yes.


besides, osi is not poverty, its more like nonsense. Olosi is f.ool.

what yorubas say is adumaradan, meaning black makes the body shine.

Understand what i mean by etymology,

I am talking about the ancient ancestors of Yoruba and their mindset, not today Yoruba. You often hold to "Yoruba-ajebota" no offense meant. Osi means poverty, but colloquially, it means nonsense or just as you put it. Now compare this proverb: "Osi nii je tani mo ori, owo nii je mo ba o tan" meaning "poverty is another word for 'who is your acquaintance?' Money is another word for 'you are my relation.'" You can as well say "Osi ta a gan" to mean "he experience abject poverty" then you arrive at "Otoshi", which is Yoruba for "poor people" do you get it?

tpia@:
omo oyinbo is child of oyinbo, could be a biracial reference or a european white person.

we are talking of Ogun, not Malato or European, the Yoruba oriki is as old as Yoruba land, its not some guesswork poetry, as such you can not approach it as though it is talking about the recent past just like Radiollo had thought. Oriki is as old as the patriarch of each clan and if we misconstrue that, i wonder what is next in line to go. this s like quadratic equation, whatever you do to nominator, you do it to the denominator, if so the Yoruba were some malato or European white person.

i think omo oyinbo as a term is pretty unambiguous, do you agree?

its referring to a light skinned person who most likely is biracial or white.

and not albino, imo albino would be called by name unless there's evidence to the contrary.

omo oyinbo in this context strongly suggests the child of an oyinbo, and biracial because the omo implies that.

prexios:

Understand what i mean by etymology,

I am talking about the ancient ancestors of Yoruba and their mindset, not today Yoruba. You often hold to "Yoruba-ajebota" no offense meant. Osi means poverty, but colloquially, it means nonsense or just as you put it. Now compare this proverb: "Osi nii je tani mo ori, owo nii je mo ba o tan" meaning "poverty is another word for 'who is your acquaintance?' Money is another word for 'you are my relation.'" You can as well say "Osi ta a gan" to mean "he experience abject poverty" then you arrive at "Otoshi", which is Yoruba for "poor people" do you get it?

akushe is poverty, i'm not familiar with oshi meaning poverty.

poverty can be included as one of the meanings, however, going by those examples you gave.

look at oshi o da, means nonsense is not good. Oshi doesnt mean poverty in that phrase.

Koshi soun is another example of a usage not related to poverty.

i think what you're confusing for "ajebota" is the fact that i dont speak the really deep yoruba which is needed for most of these analyses.

prexios:

the name for Hausa land among the Yoruba is Oke Oya, meaning Oya's country. . . .

Oya and the early Yoruba people dwelled at the North at inception, then it was from this point that the Yoruba proceed southward. then the river Niger was named after the historic Oya, who was one of the brain behind the seperation of Yoruba from her parent state. Oya means faction or offshoot.

its good you mentioned the river niger, i've been meaning to ask what exactly the yoruba knew about this river, assuming that knowledge is still in existence?

Solving the puzzle.

Oduduwa is not a name but a title.

Oduduwa= Odu to da iwa ( The Odu that gave birth/created righteousness )

The Odu talks more about the Yoruba's:

Our-His-Story/Creation//Songs of Praise/Way of worship/Priest-wood/Proverbs/Messages from God/Way of life etc.

The Yoruba's believe that as it was in the beginning, so shall it be in the end (Events re-occurs).

Therefore, Since we know this and we have details of causes/actions that brought about events that occurred in the past,

We can use the ODU (Our-Story) as an EQUATION in solving Future occurrence, Substituting Present events that are similar with our past events in the Odu's. This way, we can use the answers of the Odu to get the answer to the Future.

Oduduwa is the Title given to:
Our-His-Story of the Creation of the World(Beginning)
Our-His-Story in the Bible before the Flood ( Old Testament)
Our-His-Story in the middle east before we were driven out (Past)
Our new beginning at Ile-Ife (Present).

Remember the Bible says in Zephaniah 3:9/10 :

9: For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.
10: From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants, even the daughter (children) of my dispersed, shall bring mine offering.

The Yoruba Religion is built around Offering (Ram/Ebo) to God

Oduduwa is a title given to the Yoruba's by Olodumare/Eledumare/God.

THEREFORE: Oduduwa= Odu to da iwa ( The Odu that gave birth/created righteousness )

We are children of Oduduwa = Children Of The Righteous!
A Oduan= The Righteous!!!

tpia@:



akushe is poverty, i'm not familiar with oshi meaning poverty.

poverty can be included as one of the meanings, however, going by those examples you gave.

look at oshi o da, means nonsense is not good. Oshi doesnt mean poverty in that phrase.

Koshi soun is another example of a usage not related to poverty.

i think what you're confusing for "ajebota" is the fact that i dont speak the really deep yoruba which is needed for most of these analyses.

You mix it up, Akushe is "a poor person". Oshi is poverty.

tpia@:



akushe is poverty, i'm not familiar with oshi meaning poverty.

poverty can be included as one of the meanings, however, going by those examples you gave.

look at oshi o da, means nonsense is not good. Oshi doesnt mean poverty in that phrase.

Koshi soun is another example of a usage not related to poverty.

i think what you're confusing for "ajebota" is the fact that i dont speak the really deep yoruba which is needed for most of these analyses.

I understand, but you have to build trust in others where you presently have challenges, as long as you know that the 'deep' exist, go with people that have earn your trust call to the deep. Metaphysical had good handle on etymology of yoruba words, He has my trust. When he says 'ibu' means sea, don't doubt him. Most of all you are a great elicitor. Respect.

tpia@:


its good you mentioned the river niger, i've been meaning to ask what exactly the yoruba knew about this river, assuming that knowledge is still in existence?

Right, the Yoruba have classic materialism. but to have a glimpse of it you need to adjust your wordview. some words are potent little princess.

i think we should try to keep the thread simple and uncomplicated and avoid being sidetracked by issues which have no bearing on the subject matter.

I am also of the opinion it is not necessary to adjust worldviews [perhaps i am reading you wrong, since you omitted the L from your own rendering] on a subject such as this, which to me, is anthropology or historical context, and none of the info so far, is new. As in, i doubt most of this wasnt known to earlier yoruba researchers and writers.

as to potency, i've been meaning to ask for us to try to desist from "fadeyi oloro" scenarios, with various parties practicing "potency of words" instead of discussing the matters on ground. It IS after all an internet forum, and the thread isnt meant to be a testing ground for mind games, if it is, let me know so i can take my leave and continue elsewhere.

i am under the impression what we are discussing is in a scholarly context, not an esoteric one, perhaps i am mistaken, will be more alert to the possibility.

last but not least, i think my knowledge of yoruba is sufficient for what i'm discussing, i simply addressed your erroneous label of ajebuta, since you needed a reason to pin one? Ajebuta is your impression, doesnt mean you are correct.

I understand your paspective, how i wish you understand mine. Meanwhile, there is no esoteric going on, and i'm sorry if i've offended you. But what i mean by 'word view' is simple: Yoruba words have surface and deep meaning. This imply that you have to adjust to deep meaning of word and ask for clarification when not sure with any angle. What do i have to gain making word mean what they don't? That you must assume sometimes to give me benefit of the doubt. You are looking for Yoruba history, not 'Yoruba conversation'. Each time you push the notion you are familiar with over and over, then you are questioning the integrity of the word in question and the user. You are then denying a possible fact just to be sure a word does not mean more than what you are sure of. that is limiting word usage to what you agree with. At least you have heard @akanniade, he affirm my point, you haven't ask anyone else offline if my angle may be right or wrong, but you are so sure its erroneous. Thats 'fadeyi oloro' option.

^^There is a reason what we are having here might be called research and not opinion poll, someone is either sharing his researched material with enlightened mind for discourse and not a competition or game of mind. If i say ogun is oyinbo, that mean to me he is non-black, but then your opinion. i really don't know what you are arguing for or against in what "oyinbo" should mean, maybe the tribe i talk about is biracial or european, or...[please fill the gap] Endeavour to make your opinion clear, if not you may be misunderstood. Don't wait for anyone to read your mind.

^ my point was you chose to label me ajebuta, i simply played to your opinion, which was wrong.


i am not an ajebuta and neither do i consider myself one, the fact that i choose not to engage in wordplay with the subject matter, doesnt mean i dont grasp what is being discussed.


i think most of the posters here are picking whatever they want to pick from what is being discussed, doesnt make one particular method the one way. We are all dropping contributions, we all know our motives for doing so, some motives are personal, some are academic, some are out of genuine interest as opposed to point scoring or attempts to intimidate.

my frame of reference presently is not ogun, i think we're in another context now, i also agree the oyinbo in your post means oyinbo, so why would we be arguing about that. The question i asked was why did you say you feel the original yorubas werent black, I asked this previously on another thread but i dont think you gave an answer then, which was why i brought it up again, and your response was ogun, that was what we were analyzing.


btw, i would prefer not to be addressed by any title besides the moniker i bear here.

I understand your paspective, how i wish you understand mine

that is what i'm trying to do, and i do not need to label you or put you in a box before i can view your opinion or perspective.

the subject is too vast for that, i think we are both yoruba, is that a given or is there some doubt about this.

^^Let's move farward. The Yoruba ancestors were not blacks, thats my opinion. I'm entitle to that. Meanwhile this fact was not discuss in any Yoruba tradition because Yoruba metamophoused to being blacks over a long stretch of time. If we understood 'shi' as darkened or weathered, then the word 'ako-si-bero' gave us an idea of 'wholesale blackness' that the emigrants experienced as a resault of resettlement. The veiled enigma behind the word is, Yoruba language is conscious of such change. Now to me, the word shi is my princess, if I don't adore this word, I would be incapable of conceiving the notion that Yoruba use to be non-black. i don't have the luxury of aclaiming whatever cross my mind, but the few incredible claims i holds may not have obvious anchor than to one Yoruba impounderable word and then my instinct. i can't make my reader buy my argument and i wont throw out my princess to please anyone.