ooman:

and that guy is your savior?

One step at a time, Amigos.

We need to agree he existed. Some say he was a figment of imagination, some others say he was an ideal - that the gospels are a parable about how this ideal influenced people. Yet some have proposed Jesus was a hallucinogenic drug that changed people's lives. Yet others see him as the other Sun of God besides Buddha and Krishna. All sorts of ideas have been brought forth.

One step at a time. This man existed.

Next step, if the stories about him are lies then it's a wonder that nobody in the early church proved the stories false. Of course there were the gnostics and other sects with varying beliefs on WHAT Jesus was, but nobody accepted him as a man and yet rejected the stories about his life, at a time when it was relatively still fresh.

Last of all, the disciples and early church must have been insane to live and die such wretched and persecuted lives for the sake of a lie. There must have been something far more than all that.

jesus usurped the position of Sol Invictus.

InesQor:

One step at a time, Amigos.

We need to agree he existed. Some say he was a figment of imagination, some others say he was an ideal - that the gospels are a parable about how this ideal influenced people. Yet some have proposed Jesus was a hallucinogenic drug that changed people's lives. Yet others see him as the other Sun of God besides Buddha and Krishna. All sorts of ideas have been brought forth.

One step at a time. This man existed.

Next step, if the stories about him are lies then it's a wonder that nobody in the early church proved the stories false. Of course there were the gnostics and other sects with varying beliefs on WHAT Jesus was, but nobody accepted him as a man and yet rejected the stories about his life, at a time when it was relatively still fresh.

Last of all, the disciples and early church must have been insane to live and die such wretched and persecuted lives for the sake of a lie. There must have been something far more than all that.

First, I don't doubt if the guy existed or not. That doesn't make the stories about him true even if he existed.

Second, xtianity was accepted in Rome as an official religion, no one dear question the authority of those days, they will be killed for treason.

Third, people die for a lot of things, most especially when they are illiterate fishermen who'd believe anything. That's not a proof for jesus being powerful. Its just their delusions.

ammyluv2002: God, why are you this merciful?

He'd already sacrificed His only Beloved Son

InesQor: @Delafruita:

I have reliable cause to believe (I have read from theology books but it may take some effort to find my sources again. I can if I am compelled) that there were many factions of opposition units like that of Jesus and his friends. Maybe there were even some other Jewish faction / rebellion leaders called Yeshua just as well.

In either case for this reason I'm not surprised that neither Seneca nor other secular historians talked about him in his lifetime or shortly after, they could not have found his life remarkable enough to document. He was just another riff-raff leading a ragtag bunch of followers.

People got interested in Jesus long after his death when they saw how his ardent followers were going on about him. It's the way of the world.

there were other people named yeshwa.infact 12% of the male population of 1st century syria and environs were named yeshwa.history records quite a number of first century yeshwas most famous of them been a leader of a band of robbers and the other a megalomaniac who kept screaming about the destruction of jerusalem till he was stoned to death at the city gate.

It will be an error to assume that historians like seneca will not have been interested in yeshwa bar josephus aka the christ.the man suppossedly lived in a city of less than 14000 people,was known by almost everyone(according to the bible) and even became a thorn in the flesh of the jewish leaders like caiaphas.the man was executed by public crucifixion and his body went missing 3days later.the man defied the saBbath,healed the sick and woke the dead,and you assume because there were factions Seneca will not record him?neither willl philo or even pliny?these are historians that recorded eclipses and even the eruption of vesuvius in 66AD.you really think they won't have written a few lines about yeshwa bar josephus if at all he existed?let's even assume tthe jewish historians didn't,we all know the romans to be ardent record keepers.did their historians forget to write about him despite the public trial and execution?

Patiently waiting for the 19th, someone pls remind me case I forget.

InesQor: @ubl6

No matter how people deny the Biblical Jesus, they cannot seem to credibly erase the historicity of Yeshua ben Yosef who was an actual person that lived around 4 B.C. to 29 A.D.

according to luke he was born in 6AD and died in 39AD.you mind explaining the discrepancy?

InesQor:

One step at a time, Amigos.

We need to agree he existed. Some say he was a figment of imagination, some others say he was an ideal - that the gospels are a parable about how this ideal influenced people. Yet some have proposed Jesus was a hallucinogenic drug that changed people's lives. Yet others see him as the other Sun of God besides Buddha and Krishna. All sorts of ideas have been brought forth.

One step at a time. This man existed.

Next step, if the stories about him are lies then it's a wonder that nobody in the early church proved the stories false. Of course there were the gnostics and other sects with varying beliefs on WHAT Jesus was, but nobody accepted him as a man and yet rejected the stories about his life, at a time when it was relatively still fresh.

Last of all, the disciples and early church must have been insane to live and die such wretched and persecuted lives for the sake of a lie. There must have been something far more than all that.

do you know how many people died with/for david koresh in Waco?people die for various diverse beliefs.doesn't proof the validity of their belief

Delafruita: josephus flavius antiquties was published around 93AD which is about 60years after jesus supposedly died.its rather curious that testimoniun flavanium I.e the clause you quoted wasn't discovered by anyone till eusebius shortly before the 325AD council in nicea.isn't it also curious that no single historian who lived during the same time jesus supposedly lived ever made mention of him?philo of alexander didn't mention him neither did pliny the elder who died in 66AD.even seneca didn't mention him at all.testimonium flavanium has been shown to be an interpolation

True that and Josephus commentary wasn't even a testament of him being the actual christ the jewish nation was expecting they were expecting their an heroic figure who'll free them of the oppression and rulership of the then Authority one who is gonna act and not postpone it to another coming..That's why the jews still don't take jesus as the expected messiah.

plaetton:

Josephus wrote what he had heard of the movement by hearsay. He did not mention them as a witness, but by only based the tales he had heard.

Secondly that, that statement is considered to be a spurious redaction from the father Eusabius, the well renowned father of pious fraud.

I agree with your first commentary about Jodephus not being a testator of jesus' messiahship status but just used it to qualified someone called james to identify him as his brother.

I'll read about this father Eusabius..

Good Morning.

ooman: WHY ARE THE XTIANS AFRAID?

Dont worry, it makes no difference, considering you believe in a dead, white jewish guy as your god.

We're not afraid, you are. You have deep fear you see, for you base the condition of your life against God and Jesus Christ. And if you continue, you'll die in your sins and go to hell. Lost forever.
That's why you're afraid
Our speech and arguments do not change reality. They do not change the fact that:

Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Yea. We shall all stand before God in judgement. And you stand condemned.

Joshthefirst:
We're not afraid, you are. You have deep fear you see, for you base the condition of your life against God and Jesus Christ. And if you continue, you'll die in your sins and go to hell. Lost forever.
That's why you're afraid
Our speech and arguments do not change reality. They do not change the fact that:

Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Yea. We shall all stand before God in judgement. And you stand condemned.

Guy, you don't know how much I wanna dance with the devil. Its ll be a great pleasure to be with the great satan, creator of your soul and your god.

ooman:


Guy, you don't know how much I wanna dance with the devil. Its ll be a great pleasure to be with the great satan, creator of your soul and your god.

toh. I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

Joshthefirst: toh. I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

Sure, worship the devil now or you will go to hell...

why the urge and unnecessary urge to disclaim the power of Jesus. ..Christianity is not a forceful religion, nobody forces anyone to be a Christian. so why is the man so zealous to refute the power of jesus...the josephus did not disclaim Jesus but he approved it...so we all should know that the message of jesus. .nobody could have preached except by the intervention of God. ..praise JESUS CHRIST

ooman:

Sure, worship the devil now or you will go to hell...

one goes to hell for sin. For breaking the law. How many years will it take for you to acknowledge that. You go to hell because you've broken the law and are guilty and deserving.

coolkris: why the urge and unnecessary urge to disclaim the power of Jesus. ..Christianity is not a forceful religion, nobody forces anyone to be a Christian. so why is the man so zealous to refute the power of jesus...the josephus did not disclaim Jesus but he approved it...so we all should know that the message of jesus. .nobody could have preached except by the intervention of God. ..praise JESUS CHRIST

perhaps you need to brush up on your knowledge of history by reading about the crusades,the inquisition and many other attempt to force others into christianity

Joshthefirst: one goes to hell for sin. For breaking the law. How many years will it take for you to acknowledge that. You go to hell because you've broken the law and are guilty and deserving.

and what law have i broken exactly?

was ur father or grand father forced into Christianity. .why are u so bothered..are u now feeling like a messiah sent by God to free people from the message of jesus...the message of jesus has no wrong in it..whearas, it calls us to a life of holiness, whearas islamists are bombing steady. .and atheist s are killing serially cos they feel they wont be judged. .wat is ur fight for?

coolkris: was ur father or grand father forced into Christianity. .why are u so bothered..are u now feeling like a messiah sent by God to free people from the message of jesus...the message of jesus has no wrong in it..whearas, it calls us to a life of holiness, whearas islamists are bombing steady. .and atheist s are killing serially cos they feel they wont be judged. .wat is ur fight for?

how am i supposed to understand this?

..
...

the war between good and evil continues..but our God will surely win

coolkris: the war between good and evil continues..but our God will surely win

your god is the evil here, and evil cannot win.

Delafruita: according to luke he was born in 6AD and died in 39AD.you mind explaining the discrepancy?

It's a very long story having to do with ambiguities in first and last names and cognomens of Roman officials who people were using as a date reference. Like a Nigerian saying "It happened the year Abiola died", everyone can tell it likely refers to the famed politician M.K.O. Abiola. Now imagine there were actually many Abiolas.

Respected historians and theologians still dont have enough data on this date issue. Christ was either born around 4 B.C. or 6 A.D.

If you're really interested, the discussion below is one of the best summaries I've seen on the topic and can be a good starter for a curious mind to research further on the topic.

http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/4808/why-does-luke-associate-the-birth-of-christ-with-the-census-conducted-by-quirinu

please highlight the good of devil...I willl proceed in Jesus name..devil gives wealth and accuse u before the almighty father. .devil is a the god of this world...the physical world..and he causes wars and sickness. ..so tell me more of ur god devil?

As for your other responses, Delafruita, I am sorely tempted to open a thread on the historicity of Jesus. I think I eventually will, but I suspect it will be very time wasting and/or futile so I am not doing that just yet. Yeah I'm chicken.

InesQor:

It's a very long story having to do with ambiguities in first and last names and cognomens of Roman officials who people were using as a date reference. Like a Nigerian saying "It happened the year Abiola died", everyone can tell it likely refers to the famed politician M.K.O. Abiola. Now imagine there were actually many Abiolas.

Respected historians and theologians still dont have enough data on this date issue. Christ was either born around 4 B.C. or 6 A.D.

If you're really interested, the discussion below is one of the best summaries I've seen on the topic and can be a good starter for a curious mind to research further on the topic.

http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/4808/why-does-luke-associate-the-birth-of-christ-with-the-census-conducted-by-quirinu

doesn't it stand to reason that if the only 2 accounts of the birth of jesus contradict,then the infallibility of the bible is just a myth?according to mathew,jesus was born while herod the great was king.matthew even records that herod ordered the execution of all male children under the age of 2years whill will suggest jesus was probably born 2-3years before herod died.herod died in 4BC and was replaced by his son archelaus who reigned for 10years till the romans deposed him around 5AD.then quirinius was sent to syria as a governor with his first point of duty been the census.in essence,matthew tells us jesus was born about 8years before quirinius arrives syria.

Luke on the other hand tells us jesus was born while joseph and mary were on their way to the census quirinius orderd in 6AD.there is an almost 12year difference between both accounts and the discrepancies don't end there.while matthew tried to potray their emergence in nazaretth as been after their return from egypt,luke explicitly says nazareth was their city.

While matthew says they fled to egypt from jerusalem,luke states that mary observed the mandatory 4oday cleansing and jesus was circumcised as according to the law of moses.

Luke then goes ahead to say they went to jerusalem everyyear for the passover while matthew claimed they were in egypt because the life of the child was in danger.

Theologians have tried for centuries to explain this and they haven't succeeded.they even tried to claim there was a previous governor named quirinius but there is no record of that.then they tried to say there was a census in 4BC then they tried to opine that luke acknowledged he spoke from hearsay but others countered that it would mean an admission that the bible wasn't indeed writted by inspiration.

This issue was dealt with around one year ago and Mr_Anony tried his best by quoting from so many websites but it was all in vain.I'd love to see you try to accomplish what theologians haven't accomplished in over 15centuries by giiving logical explanation backed with independent proof explaining why matthew and luke give different birth accounts

Explains why you have hundreds of contradictions in the bible. if this is true it means islam was also fabricated as the koran acknowledges jesus.

InesQor:

It's a very long story having to do with ambiguities in first and last names and cognomens of Roman officials who people were using as a date reference. Like a Nigerian saying "It happened the year Abiola died", everyone can tell it likely refers to the famed politician M.K.O. Abiola. Now imagine there were actually many Abiolas.

Respected historians and theologians still dont have enough data on this date issue. Christ was either born around 4 B.C. or 6 A.D.

If you're really interested, the discussion below is one of the best summaries I've seen on the topic and can be a good starter for a curious mind to research further on the topic.

http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/4808/why-does-luke-associate-the-birth-of-christ-with-the-census-conducted-by-quirinu

the entire argument in the article falls on the fact that calpurnius piso was governor of syria from 4-1BC

@Delafruita

All I'll say is, you do know that history is always a tricky issue, especially back when they didn't take it with as much academic fervor as is done today. Ancient and Medieval history is tricky business and we can best connect the dots looking backwards, hoping that future generations find our own experiences better documented.

As for the historicity of Jesus thread, personally I dont believe any thread or discussion can ever settle an issue permanently, which is why i am not usually particular about "winning". So I am neither expecting to settle the issue once and for all nor to manage to positively disrupt the historical or theological scholarship on the issue.

My usual reasons for discussion are for posterity's sake. Someday someone will be searching and they will find our arguments useful towards making their own decisions too, like some of us found others before us.

Delafruita: the entire argument in the article falls on the fact that calpurnius piso was governor of syria from 4-1BC

I can't say i know this for sure. Any backup to this claim?

If nothing else, Jesus Christ is an eternity insurance to me and basal common sense. If He doesn't exist, I have got nothing to lose unless you consider not sleeping with as many girls as available, partying etc as a lost ( infact all these abstinence are economic gains) and if truly He exist and who He claimed to be, I have all to gain, so it is a WIN-WIN to me.

Now, what is going to be your own fate, if He actually lives and He is who the bible claimed He is?

It is just common sense but then very few are blessed with that

[size=14pt] The [empty-headed] fool has said in his heart, There is no God[/size]. They are corrupt, they have done abominable deeds; there is none that does good or right. Psalm 14:1-7 Amplified Bible (AMP)