manny4life:

I NEVER said that flaps generated lifts, I said, flaps helps in generating or yet augmenting lift... At higher speed, yes you retract the flaps because they cause a drag...

Somorin#1:
Regarding the thrust and lift argument.

IMHO both parties are correct.

Thrust itself does not generate lift. The wings do when air moves over and under the wings.

1) This is why we tie down light airplanes when parked in gusty areas. Not that they'll fly away perse but they can be easily flipped in realtively minor wind compared to their weight.

2) Gliders have no engines as they are pulled. So while we can argue that they are using the thrust of the pulling plane we should still remember that the actual glider has no engine to provide thrust to take off and requires no engine to maintain lift once in the air.

3) On a total engine failure, there was a case of a 747 that flew through volcanic ash and lost all four engines, the Captain still had lift but traded altitude for forward speed.

In regards to the crash.

We can only speculate until we get the equivalent of an NTSB report. Speculation is okay IMHO but it is just that, speculation.

My speculation based on the current information that we have is that the Captain has performed a no flap take off before, successfully.

This embolden him to try it again as his now common personal treat but unfortunately during the roll the FO noticed that the engines were not providing enough thrust that will enable the wings to generate the necessary lift.

Had the necessary thrust been there, or had the flaps been set properly then they might have struggled into the air after V1 and return back to the airport.

This not following manufacturers instructions also caused the death of over 200 people in the USA when mechanics invented their own method of engine removal against written manufacturers method.

Again, speculations until we have final report.

PS: For the folks involved in air operations in Nigeria, can you tell us if Nigeria practices and fosters cockpit management style that allows junior officers to question decisions made by Captains and to go as far as taking corrective actions

Omo_Tier1:

Actually, Boeing test pilots are Engineers if you did not know. Our Chief test pilot background is aeronautical engineering. Pilots of old had to study at least two years of aeronautical engineering before they proceed to flying. But these days, ignorant mofos are packed into a boxed room to mark papers prepared by us -engineers for them to memorize so they can fly the sweet birds we design.

Before any plane flies in reality, we have already flown it, hence the reasons we give you limitations that you mofos always fail to adhere to, ending up killing innocent souls.

FYI, we have mastered inverse control law to an extent that very soon, Pilots will become optional in civil flights. One of our demonstrator civil craft this year completed a trans-oceanic flight with control algorithm from ground and results show very promising future indeed.

We are fed up of mofos who want to destroy the industry for us, hence we need to cut them out or minimized them completely in the loop of things.

Somorin#1:


There was a flight that flew over LAX, their destination, because the flight crew was asleep. It was a diligent flight attendant that noticed that the flight was taking longer that finally knocked on the cabin door to wake them up.

Statistically, aircraft are very safe vehicles with tons of redundancies, the Achilles heel is we the humans. This is why many manufacturers are going to more automated avionics.

Omo_Tier1:

I think you actually answered yourself by your second point = Gliders have not engines but they are 'PULLED' across. If wings generate lift, why don't the gliders stay still and allow air to flow over them so they can fly Tells you that the general misconception of the mechanics of flight is so flawed because have refused to think we their heads

Omo_Tier1:
Hehe, another ignorant comment! Flaps are retracted because of Drag. What a load of tosh So how come between V1 and V2 when you need the power the most you still have your flaps out which according to you should create more drag thereby slowing down the aircraft? Why are they are retracted just after lift off

Chei....I hope you are not flying planes in Nigeria yet and if in the US that you are flying those agricultural planes close to Arizona desert

Somorin#1:


Conversely, why did the Glider not fall out of the sky the minute it wasn't being pulled anymore? And instead depending on the release altitude and thermal drafts can still climb thousands of feet without stalling? Also goes down in altitude when searching for thermal drafts and then climbs again. All without an engine.

I did say that you were both right.

Somorin#1:


He's right about test Pilots are Engineers.

http://www.boeing.com/news/frontiers/archive/2005/june/ts_sf03.html

ikeyman00: @@@@

davdandam(m): 7:34am

By the way i tell u to ur face u are talking nonesense; absolutely bullsssssssssssssssss! Useless opposition that will never see anything good; useless opposition that tell us the timing of SNC is bla blah

who told u thrust generate lift; so why then plane got wings; ehh? make una hold me for nl; i go break bottle for una head one day!the air flow under the wing is slower than top of the wing; the extraction and elevation of the flap can either compress more air under the wing or reduce then lift is generated.

now next time u are on board make sure u sit near the window; then take note as take off incidental happens as the flaps are almost fully extracted but as soon as the plane reaches its flying altitude then watch as the flap are retracted!

now question; do u still call for resignation after this

manny4life:

This is why you should leave flying to those who fly airplanes. So after V2, and you're still climbing, according to the takeoff checklist which you designed, does it call for retracting of flaps or not? I never knew you can have flaps deployed at high speed?

manny4life:

Haha, they are the expert engineers, I also made a comment about how does an airplane glide without an engine?

Omo_Tier1:

In fact, We have already starting looking into Automated synchronized flight operations as the future because if we have been able to deploy UAVs in Pakistan using bases as far away as the US, or even UK ( as in the case of Afghanistan UAV deployment by our RAF) it means we can and should carry out more research to validate our theories of onboard pilotless commercial flights. We did a demonstration earlier this year with one of the engine OEM ( whom I would not mention here for obvious reasons) and the results have been quite promising.

Hopefully, we can stretch the boundary further from just auto pilot at cruise or landing to incldue all regimes of flight Perhaps have base stations with trained flight engineers manning like in USAF or RAF flying these sweet birds we keep designing

donedy:

All you need is for me to teach you basic aerodynamics. Flaps, ailerons, rudders are just there as control surface, and nothing much. The wing is just used as a floatation and stabilizing device.

At cruising altitude or during level flight, the wing is used to balance the weight of the aircraft depending on the airspeed.

For your information, flaps are used to pitch the aircraft when the aircraft has attained the required take off speed. This is how take-off works: the engine provides all the thrust which accelerate the aircraft forward, the expansion of air as it flow on top of the wing gives rise to change in pressure in direction normal to the wings. However, that the pilot won't deploy the flaps until the aircraft has attained the required take-off speed. Once the speed is attained, the flaps is then deployed at a very high angle upward, typically>30 degrees, which couple with speed will change the AoA.

For your information, it's only notice like you will say the flaps develop lift, No it does not. The expansion happening on the top of the wing, due forward thrust gives rise to lift. The pilot then deploys flaps at the right time to change the direction of the thrust vector; which is why the front gear lift off before the last two gears.

Believe me; I'm an Aeronautics and Astronautics Engineer!

donedy:

All you need is for me to teach you basic aerodynamics. Flaps, ailerons, rudders are just there as control surface, and nothing much. The wing is just used as a floatation and stabilizing device.

At cruising altitude or during level flight, the wing is used to balance the weight of the aircraft depending on the airspeed.

For your information, flaps are used to pitch the aircraft when the aircraft has attained the required take off speed. This is how take-off works: the engine provides all the thrust which accelerate the aircraft forward, the expansion of air as it flow on top of the wing gives rise to change in pressure in direction normal to the wings. However, that the pilot won't deploy the flaps until the aircraft has attained the required take-off speed. Once the speed is attained, the flaps is then deployed at a very high angle upward, typically>30 degrees, which couple with speed will change the AoA.

For your information, it's only notice like you will say the flaps develop lift, No it does not. The expansion happening on the top of the wing, due forward thrust gives rise to lift. The pilot then deploys flaps at the right time to change the direction of the thrust vector; which is why the front gear lift off before the last two gears.

Believe me; I'm an Aeronautics and Astronautics Engineer!

Omo_Tier1:
Didnot realize comprehension was your problem. Did you not read where I said "between V1 AND v2 ??

Somorin#1:


I'm not certain if I'll get on a flight with no one in the cockpit.

Things do go wrong. No data but I'm pretty sure that some UAV were lost due to malfunction.

I'll settle for modern Cat3 autoland with two guys up front.

Omo_Tier1:
So you were not clever enough to figure out that the engine Thrust is replaced by the human pull power when you begin the gliding

manny4life:

Did I say you retract flaps during V1 and V2?

You seriously need help. I said flaps are retracted at higher speeds, after takeoff and reached a certain level and you're here yarning nonsense

I guess you're the one with comprehension problem, go back and read again.

Omo_Tier1:

Hehe, I am not sure you really know what Higher Speed regime is

donedy:

All you need is for me to teach you basic aerodynamics. Flaps, ailerons, rudders are just there as control surface, and nothing much. The wing is just used as a floatation and stabilizing device.

At cruising altitude or during level flight, the wing is used to balance the weight of the aircraft depending on the airspeed.

For your information, flaps are used to pitch the aircraft when the aircraft has attained the required take off speed. This is how take-off works: the engine provides all the thrust which accelerate the aircraft forward, the expansion of air as it flow on top of the wing gives rise to change in pressure in direction normal to the wings. However, that the pilot won't deploy the flaps until the aircraft has attained the required take-off speed. Once the speed is attained, the flaps is then deployed at a very high angle upward, typically>30 degrees, which couple with speed will change the AoA.

For your information, it's only notice like you will say the flaps develop lift, No it does not. The expansion happening on the top of the wing, due forward thrust gives rise to lift. The pilot then deploys flaps at the right time to change the direction of the thrust vector; which is why the front gear lift off before the last two gears.

Believe me; I'm an Aeronautics and Astronautics Engineer!

manny4life:

Haha, are you running away from the question,

According to you, if thrust generates lift, how does an airplane that looses power glide?

Omo_Tier1:

If you do not know, one of the courses you take during your aeronautical degree study involves the power of flight and majorly it talks about how gliding do take place. Anderson's book I gave you the link earlier explains it well. Go and read it, hopefully you will get some understanding on how lift is initiated in a glider.

Omo_Tier1:
Okay, then be prepared to stop flying The European clean sky project has this as one of its derivatives, ( not actually the core) so the next bird you may see fly in say 2035 onward might actually by remote pilot birds.

Have you ever thought of how well the redundancies built into control surfaces over the years has enhanced auto piloting for both landing and cruise? So why should we shall away to exploring the frontiers further?

manny4life:

Thanks for vindicating me that Thrust is what provides the power that accelerates the aircraft forward and the airflow on the wings is what gives rise to change in pressure. However, doesn't this contradict to what you "engineers" put out on your manual? Deploying of FULL flaps greater than 30deg and during rake off roll?

Thank you for the bold,

At least I know I;m no engineer but my instructors where right after all.

Somorin#1:


In 2035 I should be retired by then so won't be in any rush to get anywhere and can enjoy travelling by ships.

Regardless of redundancies, I personally will still prefer someone up front.

Even more critical than passenger flights, I know we routinely send unmanned spacecrafts to the ISS so the technology has always been there.

Omo_Tier1:

You deploy flaps to help you augment your speed, i.e. your 30 degree settings mean on certain run and weather conditions, you will require less speed to take off and the 'available' runway.

It is not there to generate lift

manny4life:

Too much long story...

Again, you said Thrust generates Lift, and I said OKAY... If that's true, kindly explain how an plane glides when it looses power...Is that too much to ask for?

manny4life:

You see, it's people like you that eventually mislead people, people who haven't seen the four walls of a flight school let alone attend "ground school" not to talk of an being in an airplane cockpit. Quasi internet knowledge is what you parade online. Your "technical jargon" downloaded from Google makes no sense, I decided NOT TO answer you, but I said to myself, why not?

Again, I would reiterate this again, unlike the mumbled equation on there, and like the experts taught me from a reputable university and flight line, thrust is just a component required to generate LIFT, it propels the aircraft forward in a high speed, that there's enough airflow on the wings, enough to lift the aircraft. THRUST DOES NOT GENERATE LIFT, the air flow over the wings and the wings is what generate lifts or lift aircraft. If thrust generates lift, why is it when pilots move their throttle to idle during cruise or descent, the airplane will come crashing down na. [/b]Why is it that when there's high angle of attack (loss of airflow over the wings), you loss lift and stall? I mean, if thrust generated lift, by your theory that thrust generates lift, you won't stall. After all, many aircraft have stalled on cruise, descent when the engine is spinning very well... Please stop misleading people.

[b]THRUST DOES NOT GENERATE LIFT, THE AIRFLOW OVER THE WINGS IS WHAT GENERATES LIFT, LOOSE THAT AIRFLOW, AND YOU STALL.

I never claimed to study Aeronautical Engineering, if you want answers, look for Engineers to argue this with, I can give you a few names on FB, whom I went to school with. My comment on pitch/yaw was simple: I said they are different components which is not relevant to what we're talking about. Yes an airplane departs, before departure, elevator trim is set for "takeoff", how can you talk about pitch and not talk about the elevator that controls it? However since you can prove your Google internet knowledge that an aircraft can pitch up without an elevator, please go ahead and prove this. I guess an airplane can pitch up and down in flight without elevator control, so does the rudder (el al Isreali flight accident comes to mind)..

Your hint one and two absolutely makes no sense at all, you're asking me why did the DFDR not record the speed, have you looked at the report? The report stated that the airspeed indicators weren't working I believe, it gave away false information which is why they relied on radar data. Besides, do I look like your engineer or you have turned from pilot to engineer to investigator right? Code what exactly? You code into the DFDR? I'm beginning to doubt your piloting knowledge, it begs of answers... seriously.

As for your hint two, all I can say is hmm? What aircraft does a 90degree bank turn? I seriously have no clue on what you're talking about. The report never stated that, at least when I read it, so what are you on about?

Omo_Tier1:
Seriously, if you are asking for explanation on how gliders make their flight and you call yourself a pilot, I rest my case! Like I told you, I am not here to argue, rather to buttress the fact of the theoretical physics I know and use as part of my daily routine.

kaeyame: Was this pilot on a self suicide pact? How can someone ignore such a warning, knowing that there are no pit-stops in the air?

....What do you expect, when you have BK guys as pilots!


Me, I tire for some people o!

manny4life:

I never said it generates lift, I've often said it help or yet augments the lift...

What I've always said was the air flowing over the wings + the power generated from the thrust pushing the airplane forward with the help of flaps augmenting it generates lift. Please go back to my previous post


I was taught lower flaps setting augment (the right term) lift and a higher deployment causes a drag to the airplane, wouldn't that explain why FULL flaps are deployed after landing?

donedy:

Believe me; I'm an Aeronautic Engineer.

Earlier you said FLAPS generate lift, now you're saying it's the wing after being corrected. I think my lecture is working. But let me lecture more, the wing is just there for stabilization of the aircraft and inducing change in pressure change normal to the wing. An aircraft can still take off without the little lift coming from the wing. All the pilot need is to reach the required speed and deploy the flaps. The main purpose of wing in commercial aircraft is stabilization.

Again at cruising altitude, the pilot can put the thrust in idle maintain a certain cruising speed. To do this, thrust must be equal to the drag, and the lift; which is proportional to the cruising speed, must be equal to the weight of the aircraft. These are the conditions that give rise to level flight.

Believe me, I'm an rocket scientist. Military aircraft can with little or no wing, since all lift comes from the jet engine. Although some used blended wing design, which encompasses the general control surface.