s3nn2x: How does going to a foreign country for surgery equal to tourism?

I have been hearing of the term 'Medical Tourism', but I still DON'T understand the concept.

exactly my question. What's medical tourism? because in all visa applications I have applied for, going for tourism is different from going for medical.

Chicken change! Citizens of UK and US spend far more than that on medical treatments abroad. Asia is their main destination.

By medical tourism, I think the man means like what obtains in nigeria. If a govt official is going to europe or india to treat headache, he will go with a retinue of at least 15 persons- SSA, PA, SA to the SSA, Secretary, wife, children, concubines. So while the man is going for medical, his entourage is going for tourism

kalokalo:


Nigerian medical professionals are so clueless and vision-less. What stops hundreds of doctors from coming together, pool resources and expertise and found world class hospitals that will meet the needs of any medical specialty needed by patients in Nigeria? Must they wait for the government to do everything considering that the government is peopled by just as clueless folks as the average Nigerian? The best hospitals in the world are partnerships from as many as 500 doctors (Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins, MD Anderson etc)

All our own doctors know how to do is jostle for civil service health jobs and going on strike over poor conditions. There are several other professionals in Nigeria e.g lawyers, accountants, estate surveyors etc and what they do is found partnerships / firms that can compete with multinationals e.g Akintola Williams & Co (Accounting) FRA Williams & Co (Law) Diya Fatilimilehin & Co (Estate Agency). These professionals have Nigeria's market on lock-down and we don't need to travel abroad for foreign expertise. Why cant our doctors do the same?

One the the best hospitals in Nigeria is Eko Hospital. It was a partnership founded by Dr. Eneli, Dr. Kuku and Dr. Obiora. Our Banks came together and today have the local market on lock-down. Do bankers have 2 heads or it is cheaper to establish a bank than a world class hospital? A world class hospital in Nigeria will break even in its first year of operation.

Our people go to India for medical expertise in private hospitals set up by average Indian doctors who earn the equivalent of 65 thousand Naira per month. Our own medical professionals for all they earn cannot replicate same. If bankers, Lawyers, Accountants and other professionals in Nigeria can thrive without government intervention and can compete with foreign multinationals in the same market, Nigerians have no business going abroad for medical care.

We didn't need government run law firms, accounting firms, banks for these professionals to take the bull by the horns and thrive in their own country. We don't need any government intervention in health care for it to thrive. We only need entrepreneurial medical professionals to set up world class hospitals. The market is already there.

I disagree with you. Never ever compare science courses with humanities or management sciences. Ever wondered why we have Nobel laureate in literature and not in Medicine? Do you know how many critically-acclaimed poets/playwrights we have in Africa? How many laurels have we won in medicine and engineering? Or computing?

Lawyers and accountants don't really have a choice. And, it doesn't cost much to set yourself up in these careers. Do you know how much it costs to purchase basic instruments you need in a hospital?


It all boils down to the society. Moreover, there are options for doctors. They can work comfortably in government hospitals because provision of healthcare is always important to the government even though not well funded.

Besides, the top 0.0005% or so of our population will always go abroad for their medical needs; they have the means. The much-praised Indians are doing exactly that as well. I mean the stupendously rich Indians.

Ola one:
I disagree with you. Never ever compare science courses with humanities or management sciences. Ever wondered why we have Nobel laureate in literature and not in Medicine? Do you know how many critically-acclaimed poets/playwrights we have in Africa? How many laurels have we won in medicine and engineering? Or computing?

Why can't we compare biological sciences like medicine to management sciences? Are they not both professions? Do they not both need training and experience to develop expertise in? Do they not both need technological acquisition and cutting edge best practices to compete globally?
We don't win laurels in engineering and medicine because those in those fields don't labor day and night in research and development. Name one scientific discovery, invention or breakthrough that was not a product of research, experimenting, tinkering or even accident? That is what wins you laurels. Or you think the poets/playwrights don't crack their brains and labor for years to give you world acclaimed literature?

Ola one:
Lawyers and accountants don't really have a choice. And, it doesn't cost much to set yourself up in these careers. Do you know how much it costs to purchase basic instruments you need in a hospital?.

That is why I said doctors have to come together and pool resources and expertise by forming professional partnerships. How else did you think Eko Hospital or Mayo Clinic or world class hospitals in the advanced nations are formed?

Ola one:
It all boils down to the society. Moreover, there are options for doctors. They can work comfortably in government hospitals because provision of healthcare is always important to the government even though not well funded.

They choose to kill themselves over poor government jobs because they are lazy, lack imagination and drive. Asian doctors earn less in equivalent terms and are more productive, entrepreneurial and imaginative. Westerners are even going to Asia to seek equivalent medical therapies for a fraction of the cost. They are going to private hospitals in Asia and NOT government run ones. No government run hospital anywhere on earth can compete with privately run world class hospitals. You are free to debunk that!

Ola one:
Besides, the top 0.0005% or so of our population will always go abroad for their medical needs; they have the means. The much-praised Indians are doing exactly that as well. I mean the stupendously rich Indians.

The top guys in any country will always go to the most expensive and exclusive hospitals on the planet. It turns out that those in the West don't have to go anywhere because their countries have local hospitals that meet that criteria. Or what kind of hospital do expect to see wealthy men like Warren Buffet, Carlos Slim or Roman Abramovich go to? Definitely not a US or British government owned hospital.

Her hospitals re poorly funded that's why we runs to abroad for better treatment

Even if they give them such instruments. Customer service in hospital is poor. Fark them jare. I will also go abroad where they will attend to me wella

kalokalo:


Nigerian medical professionals are so clueless and vision-less. What stops hundreds of doctors from coming together, pool resources and expertise and found world class hospitals that will meet the needs of any medical specialty needed by patients in Nigeria? Must they wait for the government to do everything considering that the government is peopled by just as clueless folks as the average Nigerian? The best hospitals in the world are partnerships from as many as 500 doctors (Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins, MD Anderson etc)

All our own doctors know how to do is jostle for civil service health jobs and going on strike over poor conditions. There are several other professionals in Nigeria e.g lawyers, accountants, estate surveyors etc and what they do is found partnerships / firms that can compete with multinationals e.g Akintola Williams & Co (Accounting) FRA Williams & Co (Law) Diya Fatilimilehin & Co (Estate Agency). These professionals have Nigeria's market on lock-down and we don't need to travel abroad for foreign expertise. Why cant our doctors do the same?

One the the best hospitals in Nigeria is Eko Hospital. It was a partnership founded by Dr. Eneli, Dr. Kuku and Dr. Obiora. Our Banks came together and today have the local market on lock-down. Do bankers have 2 heads or it is cheaper to establish a bank than a world class hospital? A world class hospital in Nigeria will break even in its first year of operation.

Our people go to India for medical expertise in private hospitals set up by average Indian doctors who earn the equivalent of 65 thousand Naira per month. Our own medical professionals for all they earn cannot replicate same. If bankers, Lawyers, Accountants and other professionals in Nigeria can thrive without government intervention and can compete with foreign multinationals in the same market, Nigerians have no business going abroad for medical care.

We didn't need government run law firms, accounting firms, banks for these professionals to take the bull by the horns and thrive in their own country. We don't need any government intervention in health care for it to thrive. We only need entrepreneurial medical professionals to set up world class hospitals. The market is already there.

Bullocks!
Health is a different kettle of fish.

How many Nigerians can afford EKO hospital bills?
Maybe 1%
Don't be deceived, it is still those people who go to India.

We should focus on providing good facilities in govt hospitals and health insurance for the populace.
If health care professionals take loans and set up "world class hospitals", perhaps malaria treatment could cost as much as 50k.
You will still come back and accuse them of being elitist.

The most useful benefit of carrying a European passport is "free" medicare.

kalokalo:

They choose to kill themselves over poor government jobs because they are lazy, lack imagination and drive. Asian doctors earn less in equivalent terms and are more productive, entrepreneurial and imaginative. Westerners are even going to Asia to seek equivalent medical therapies for a fraction of the cost. They are going to private hospitals in Asia and NOT government run ones. No government run hospital anywhere on earth can compete with privately run world class hospitals. You are free to debunk that!

You are right but why do you think this is widespread?

I think medicine is different. It is a humanitarian profession. People expect you to be charitable. Y'all will be mad with any private hospital that away patients just because of finance.
Take "Folake" of NL as an example. The lady was in dire need of medical attention.


The society is not rich enough to afford well-equipped private hospitals. You need first-class personnel, instruments and recurrent expenditure is also huge.
without patronage, the owners are basically done for.

kalokalo:
Or you think the poets/playwrights don't crack their brains and labor for years to give you world acclaimed literature?

You'd be surprised to know how many of the these playwrights' work that flopped yet they still have their integrity intact. You'd also be surprised to know how many cases our erudite lawyers have lost in the course of their professional journey yet they are still highly referred.

Just get it wrong once in medicine and people/patients will desert your hospital and your reputation is gone forever. This is healthcare - a matter of life and death. You have to get it right 100% and this costs money, research, training, education and a lot more.

You don't expect a man of means to joke with that, do you? Instead, na Europe straight oo smiley

donclark:

He explained that the medical problems that caused these medical flights could be handled in Nigeria if the facilities were put in place and maintained.

This says it all.

We loose as much as 250bn on medical tourism annually?
Remember that a high percentage of the doctors we train (Nigeria actually subsidise cost of University training) end up migrating away from Nigeria because of the poor working condition. These doctors end up practicing in the countries where our government officials and our rich men go to for medical attention.
How about the number of Nigerians that die cheaply as a result of our inept medical efficiency?
Are we really expecting our medical sector to be different from our other sectors?
We can't really quantify what we are loosing to our lack of knowledge.

kalokalo:


Nigerian medical professionals are so clueless and vision-less. What stops hundreds of doctors from coming together, pool resources and expertise and found world class hospitals that will meet the needs of any medical specialty needed by patients in Nigeria? Must they wait for the government to do everything considering that the government is peopled by just as clueless folks as the average Nigerian? The best hospitals in the world are partnerships from as many as 500 doctors (Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins, MD Anderson etc)

All our own doctors know how to do is jostle for civil service health jobs and going on strike over poor conditions. There are several other professionals in Nigeria e.g lawyers, accountants, estate surveyors etc and what they do is found partnerships / firms that can compete with multinationals e.g Akintola Williams & Co (Accounting) FRA Williams & Co (Law) Diya Fatilimilehin & Co (Estate Agency). These professionals have Nigeria's market on lock-down and we don't need to travel abroad for foreign expertise. Why cant our doctors do the same?

One the the best hospitals in Nigeria is Eko Hospital. It was a partnership founded by Dr. Eneli, Dr. Kuku and Dr. Obiora. Our Banks came together and today have the local market on lock-down. Do bankers have 2 heads or it is cheaper to establish a bank than a world class hospital? A world class hospital in Nigeria will break even in its first year of operation.

Our people go to India for medical expertise in private hospitals set up by average Indian doctors who earn the equivalent of 65 thousand Naira per month. Our own medical professionals for all they earn cannot replicate same. If bankers, Lawyers, Accountants and other professionals in Nigeria can thrive without government intervention and can compete with foreign multinationals in the same market, Nigerians have no business going abroad for medical care.

We didn't need government run law firms, accounting firms, banks for these professionals to take the bull by the horns and thrive in their own country. We don't need any government intervention in health care for it to thrive. We only need entrepreneurial medical professionals to set up world class hospitals. The market is already there.

You are on the right path my friend, but you forget the one thing that fuels this jumbo jet you want to take off- A Payer system. If you set up a payer system that is sustainable, This JUMBO JET you desire will be built.

Nigerians do not believe in Nigerians wether in Medicine, engineering, architecture we would rather pay a Lebanese laborer 500,000 for a job a than pay a Nigerian professional 50,000 but yet we expect the Nigerian to give great services. To see an ENT surgeon privately in the UK is £350 while it cost about NN20000 to see one in Nigeria.
Remember if you pay peanuts you get monkeys and better soup na money kill am.
I always say the problem with Health services and Education in Nigeria is the way they were introduced into this country. The missionaries wanted converts so they gave these services free and till date the average Nigerian still expects them to be free or cheap or subsidized. Meanwhile where theses people came from all services are paid for either through taxation, insurance or direct fees.
When I was to deliver last year many people came advising me to go abroad for delivery since I was a high risk patient. I chose to stay back and paid an arm and a leg for a CS here in lagos and I am more than happy with the service I got.

kalokalo:


Nigerian medical professionals are so clueless and vision-less. What stops hundreds of doctors from coming together, pool resources and expertise and found world class hospitals that will meet the needs of any medical specialty needed by patients in Nigeria? Must they wait for the government to do everything considering that the government is peopled by just as clueless folks as the average Nigerian? The best hospitals in the world are partnerships from as many as 500 doctors (Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins, MD Anderson etc)

All our own doctors know how to do is jostle for civil service health jobs and going on strike over poor conditions. There are several other professionals in Nigeria e.g lawyers, accountants, estate surveyors etc and what they do is found partnerships / firms that can compete with multinationals e.g Akintola Williams & Co (Accounting) FRA Williams & Co (Law) Diya Fatilimilehin & Co (Estate Agency). These professionals have Nigeria's market on lock-down and we don't need to travel abroad for foreign expertise. Why cant our doctors do the same?

One the the best hospitals in Nigeria is Eko Hospital. It was a partnership founded by Dr. Eneli, Dr. Kuku and Dr. Obiora. Our Banks came together and today have the local market on lock-down. Do bankers have 2 heads or it is cheaper to establish a bank than a world class hospital? A world class hospital in Nigeria will break even in its first year of operation.

Our people go to India for medical expertise in private hospitals set up by average Indian doctors who earn the equivalent of 65 thousand Naira per month. Our own medical professionals for all they earn cannot replicate same. If bankers, Lawyers, Accountants and other professionals in Nigeria can thrive without government intervention and can compete with foreign multinationals in the same market, Nigerians have no business going abroad for medical care.

We didn't need government run law firms, accounting firms, banks for these professionals to take the bull by the horns and thrive in their own country. We don't need any government intervention in health care for it to thrive. We only need entrepreneurial medical professionals to set up world class hospitals. The market is already there.

God bless you Sir

Ola one:
You'd be surprised to know how many of the these playwrights' work that flopped yet they still have their integrity intact. You'd also be surprised to know how many cases our erudite lawyers have lost in the course of their professional journey yet they are still highly referred.

Just get it wrong once in medicine and people/patients will desert your hospital and your reputation is gone forever. This is healthcare - a matter of life and death. You have to get it right 100% and this costs money, research, training, education and a lot more.

You don't expect a man of means to joke with that, do you? Instead, na Europe straight oo smiley

Doctors don't always get it right. There is no 100 percent in medicine. If not, no ailment or disease will have fatalities yet we know a disease that might claim someone can be survived by another e.g. cancer and even world famous hospitals and doctors have lost patients to many different ailments.

Excellent medical care can only increase the chance of survival.

venoassociate:

You are on the right path my friend, but you forget the one thing that fuels this jumbo jet you want to take off- A Payer system. If you set up a payer system that is sustainable, This JUMBO JET you desire will be built.

A payer system can take two forms. The government can create a National Health Service and create a special tax levied on every Nigerian just as done in advanced countries to fund and maintain excellent medical facilities in the country. That health Service will then provide the "free" or "cheap" health care services Nigerians so crave.

Another option is to require Nigerians to purchase health insurance from the many HMOs in the country and provide tax breaks to those who verifiably comply.

eaglechild:
Bullocks!
Health is a different kettle of fish.

How many Nigerians can afford EKO hospital bills?
Maybe 1%
Don't be deceived, it is still those people who go to India.

We should focus on providing good facilities in govt hospitals and health insurance for the populace.
If health care professionals take loans and set up "world class hospitals", perhaps malaria treatment could cost as much as 50k.
You will still come back and accuse them of being elitist.

Then who are those paying 250 billion naira on foreign medical care in a year? You will be surprised how many average Nigerians are flocking to India for medical care. Go there and see many ordinary Nigerians there in hospitals.

kalokalo:

Then who are those paying 250 billion naira on foreign medical care in a year? You will be surprised how many average Nigerians are flocking to India for medical care. Go there and see many ordinary Nigerians there in hospitals.

Those people you refer as ordinary are people like Ngozi Nwosu, who received aid from friends and family, they are the lucky few. Some of them have waited for months for contributions from church members, friends, NGOs etc to get enough money to pay their bills.

You are standing at a distance and looking in at the problem just like most other people.

Even in the richest countries insurance is the key.
The responsibility of providing good health care lies with the government.

kalokalo:

A payer system can take two forms. The government can create a National Health Service and create a special tax levied on every Nigerian just as done in advanced countries to fund and maintain excellent medical facilities in the country. That health Service will then provide the "free" or "cheap" health care services Nigerians so crave.

Another option is to require Nigerians to purchase health insurance from the many HMOs in the country and provide tax breaks to those who verifiably comply.

'

For a government like Nigeria, you would expect Govt provided health care; this can be achieved from a percentage of our oil. Nigeria has a very high unemployment rate, the employed that still live below poverty level are also too many and will not be able to afford any HMO that will provide meaningful coverage. Nevertheless the HMO idea is a great one for those that it works for.

You still need infrastructure, education to make all this work. Someone said that the problem we have is that healthcare was introduced free and years later we still want everything free.

The government has to also be willing to reduce to red tape investors have to go through in order to establish a program in the country. I have spoke to many who despite their good intention were frustrated by the bureaucracy in the country.

I would like to add my thoughts to this discussion:
GOOD HOSPITALS are made good by ALL the employees- from the porters to the managers and the doctors.
In fact, the doctors are probably the least important.
For any doctor to be effective, he/she needs a good supportive network of nurses, technicians and equipment.
My experience of Nigeria is that most of our people are trying to make a buck whichever way they can.
Take an example: order a blood test:
Unless you have a clinical technician with integrity, an engineer who has kept the machine reliable, trust boards who invest the profits in the hospital, then that result is highly likely to be unreliable.
Another example: trying to perform a simple surgical procedure: again, you need to ensure the instruments have not been stolen, the instruments provided are bought from reliable companies....
You get my drift?
It takes a WHOLE society.
We are nowhere near ready.
YES I said it!
Corruption is at a scale in Nigeria where it very literally kills.
The rich know this and so go abroad.
It is not that they don't trust the doctors.... They don't trust the system.
You and I are part of the system.
When we sponsor people into political office who are not ready or equipped for the responsibility; when we sponsor people into higher education that are not ready or capable of it; when we " dash" people money that they don't deserve.....
Please..... If we want reliable and affordable healthcare, then FFS, give our doctors the support they need! Give the technicians the space to do their job. And it should start with each state, each town, each community, each street, each effing family!
Now, if anyone wishes to deconstruct my points of view, I welcome this- BUT politely, thoughtfully and not with vacuous stupidity .....
Yes, I said it.