@Joagbaje,

I went through some of your topics and noticed you have a lot of "cut and paste" from Pastor Chris Oyakhilome.
I can understand your zeal to defend this error now.

The grace of Our Lord Jesus be with you.

Joagbaje:

Either he make gain or not That's not the point here. We were not there. The point is that a minister material can be purchased . Paul bought books . And men bought his materials .

If the books were circulated fee , who pays the printing bill

You didn't get me. Apostle Paul NEVER sold his books(epistles). He wrote letters to the churches. They were not books you could buy off the streets. If the Chruch in Lystra for instance wants to get the letters to the Thessalonians, all they need do was hire scribes from anywhere to copy them and they got their copies. Contributions from the church saw to this.

Pls dont make it look like the apostles were writing books on prosperity, healing or whatever like we have today. See what he said about the letter to the church in Colosse

Col 4:16
'And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea'

That is how the early Christians got the letters of Paul. Any rich man who wanted a personal copy and could afford it simply hired a scribe who might even be a pagan to do a copy for him like a typist would. This process had nothing to do with the apostle. The profit went to the Scribe, not the apostle or the church.

The scribes were the printing press of that day.if a ministry has printing press . It's like a business And they must collect their money.. Who pays the staff? And maintenance of the place. The money comes from sales . The bottom line is. It's not out of place to buy a material you need. If the material is sold at cost price or given free or sold a little above cost price . It's nobody business . If you can pay for compilation of bible then pay for any material you want . After all you're not forced . It's not everybody that bought parchment in bible days . It's those who have value for it.

The church had nothing to do with the sales or profits from making copies of epistles of the apostles. It was a business transaction strictly between individuals and external scribes who might not even be Christian.

For our modern day gospel book business, you're right that costs are incurred. However the question is still what motivates the writing of gospel materials? Is it financial gains or spreading the gospel? Imagine if the early missionaries had commercialized the gospel they brought, where would some of us be today? Maybe we might still be wallowing in spiritual darkness.

They brought schools, hospitals etc which helped in reaching the hinterland with the gospel and they did them for free or at an extremely reduced cost. This is the way for anybody who is truly after souls of men and NOT MONEY. The problem is that these books are sold at way over the price for similar secular books. This shows profit is the sole focus of the production despite the reduced cost of production compared to secular books.

Are the staff who work at the church printing press well paid like those who work in secular printing presses set up primarily for profit? Are the ushers who serve as marketing staff paid for their job? It is hypocritical for a pastor to sell his books at a premium yet refuses to pay a competitive salary to the staff at the press. The staff who most times are members of the church are told to manage whatever they receive because they're working for God but pastor remembers to apply a Capitalist mindset when he wants to place a price tag on the books. This is application of double standard and shows dishonesty.

The fact is that all the pastors 'Men in suit' capitalist would have partnered with their followers and asked them to sow seeds to write those books and then sell it to them and others for maximum profit.

Example, They use members money to build schools that only thieving politicians and few members can afford to send their children.

Joagbaje:

That's not true . They took money for their use and welfare .and took pastor mrs on trip .

1 Corinthians 9:4-5
Don’t we have the right to eat and drink? Don’t we have the right to be accompanied by a Christian wife like the other apostles, the Lord’s brothers, and Cephas?

Amazing, I didn't see this earlier, I don't know if I would have bothered explaining further to you.

See how you picked 2 verses of 1 Corinthians out of context to buttress an error.
Let me help you place it back into context:

1 Corinthians 9:4-5
Don’t we have the right to eat and drink? Don’t we have the right to be accompanied by a Christian wife like the other apostles, the Lord’s brothers, and Cephas?
.
.
.
12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

Note the highlighted. Especially verse 12, 15, 16 and 18*(where he mentioned without charge and the abuse of his power in the gospel)
Verse 12 clearly states that he didn't do so as not to hinder the gospel! Sticking!
May the Spirit of God flood your heart with light as you study God's word.

^^^^ If you are new to Joagbaje bible quotes, you are welcome. He is well known for picking 1 or 2 verses and using it out of context of the whole picture.

Demain_man: ^^^^ If you are new to Joagbaje bible quotes, you are welcome. He is well known for picking 1 or 2 verses and using it out of context of the whole picture.

Sad to say, that is exactly how his pastor and many "mega" church pastors preach these days.

I seriously appreciate your desperation Joagbaje, it has led me to more scriptures, thanks for bringing 1 Corinthians 9 to this study.
Thank God for this thread. My confidence in what God has called me to do is strengthened!
God bless you.

Demain_man: The fact is that all the pastors 'Men in suit' capitalist would have partnered with their followers and asked them to sow seeds to write those books and then sell it to them and others for maximum profit.

Example, They use members money to build schools that only thieving politicians and few members can afford to send their children.

I will open a thread for the points raised when led. We need to talk about them. The schools, partnership etc.
God help us, when the time is right, I will start the discussion.

Candour:

God bless you dear brother for your frankness.

You are correct that people do not value free things. Our Salvation is free and most people do not value it but is that enough reason to put a price tag on it? Will that make the gospel message more readily acceptable to the world? The gospel came free to us. We have to stop commercializing it. Like you, i have books in my mini library that i do not pay any attention to. Some i bought and some are free. I never attended to them because they had no intrinsic value to me. Price DOES NOT and SHOULD NOT determine worthiness of gospel materials. The spirit behind it is what gives it value. Pls we have to stop using the business tactics from the world to help the gospel. It's the Holy Spirit that convicts and moves in the life of people to be receptive to the gospel, NOT the packaging of the material.

Capitalism is good for progress but it has it's very negative sides which no anointing can stop and that is GREED and COVETOUSNESS. The early church was socialist in nature but it's not like the apostles sat down to determine which social or economic system to follow. The socialist nature just arose out of a tremendous outpouring of love among the early believers to one another. Our ministries have become capitalism has no mercy for the less fortunate. Merchandise of one sort or the other fill the airwaves and you can see shameless profiteering all around. Even a lot of these books have little value because they are plagiarized copies of other writer's works yet they carry price tags that will make secular novelists green with envy.

Printing of books cost money we all can agree on that. However we have to ask ourselves this question. What motivates our Pastor-authors today? Financial gain or desire to spread the gospel? If it's profit, they are no better than Robert Ludlum or Sydney Sheldon and would do well to remove the appellation of pastor from their names. If it's the spread of the Gospel, then they need to think of how to reach those who cant afford to buy these materials. Making it free or making it very cheap will surely help. The rich MUST subsidize these things for the less fortunate among us and most of our prolific christian writers of today fall into the stupendously rich category. It's not too much to give some things free of charge.

If they are honest, The ministries of today have enough resources to truly share the gospel free of charge. This is not an attempt to be holier than thou, but It's what the master wishes for his followers.

You're welcome, brother.

I think we're mixing up a number of things: whether a book should be sold for a profit, subsidy for the "poor" and what can be done with the proceeds. I believe books should be sold at fair market value. There's nothing wrong in the Church copying good things from the secular society. We're here using a forum developed by non-christians. But our purpose is different from those who use the platform for selfish or ungodly ends. The apostles tried socialism or perhaps more accurately communialism, but how long did that last? If a church discovers an oil well on its land, it should sell the oil for the price other people sell. It can then use the money to finance the gospel. Of course, it can also subsidize some of the gasoline (if it also refines the crude) for some less privileged members. But the moment it decides that the oil or gasoline should be provided almost free of charge, is the day the devil would take advantage of it and you see people getting the cheap fuel without embracing the Savior. So, I say, sell the books at a profit. Make some of the books available for free or at a reduced price, so that many will be blessed by the message and improve their lot and then be able to join in sponsoring the gospel. However, the job of subsidizng the book should not rest on the writer (pastor) alone. Other members that have been blessed in other spheres can take it upon themselves to support in some form or fashin, e.g., buy copies in bulk and distribute to members in that church. BTW, I believe pastors share some of their books free of charge. I was pleasantly surprised to pick in the mail recently a copy of Joel Osteen's latest book, Break Out. He sent it to me without my requesting or paying for it.

To ans the topic directly, I would say yes, they should for a reasonable fee. They used miney to publish the books and did not get d CDs for free. However, there should be a free version people can download for free.

Also, if the entire process was funded by some people, then they shouldn't sell.

nlMediator:
. BTW, I believe pastors share some of their books free of charge. I was pleasantly surprised to pick in the mail recently a copy of Joel Osteen's latest book, Break Out. He sent it to me without my requesting or paying for it.

That wan na marketing gimmick jare.

You wont know wen u will give double of what the book is worth when he asks for it. He is pre-conditioning ur mind.

nlMediator:

You're welcome, brother.

I think we're mixing up a number of things: whether a book should be sold for a profit, subsidy for the "poor" and what can be done with the proceeds. I believe books should be sold at fair market value. There's nothing wrong in the Church copying good things from the secular society. We're here using a forum developed by non-christians. But our purpose is different from those who use the platform for selfish or ungodly ends. The apostles tried socialism or perhaps more accurately communialism, but how long did that last? If a church discovers an oil well on its land, it should sell the oil for the price other people sell. It can then use the money to finance the gospel. Of course, it can also subsidize some of the gasoline (if it also refines the crude) for some less privileged members. But the moment it decides that the oil or gasoline should be provided almost free of charge, is the day the devil would take advantage of it and you see people getting the cheap fuel without embracing the Savior. So, I say, sell the books at a profit. Make some of the books available for free or at a reduced price, so that many will be blessed by the message and improve their lot and then be able to join in sponsoring the gospel. However, the job of subsidizng the book should not rest on the writer (pastor) alone. Other members that have been blessed in other spheres can take it upon themselves to support in some form or fashin, e.g., buy copies in bulk and distribute to members in that church. BTW, I believe pastors share some of their books free of charge. I was pleasantly surprised to pick in the mail recently a copy of Joel Osteen's latest book, Break Out. He sent it to me without my requesting or paying for it.

God bless you dear brother. I dont think i have any thing serious to add to your post. The greater good of the majority of Christendom is what i believe every Christian should pursue and work towards.

I'm pleasantly surprised at your receipt of Joel Osteen's book without paying for it. Now that's what we are talking about. If the ministry has been blessed that they can afford to do such free ventures, then they shouldn't hoard the blessings. It should be spread to benefit more and more people.

Maybe you should tell him you have a brother here that wouldn't mind getting that free book

Cheers bro and i wish you the very best.

Candour:

God bless you dear brother. I dont think i have any thing serious to add to your post. The greater good of the majority of Christendom is what i believe every Christian should pursue and work towards.

I'm pleasantly surprised at your receipt of Joel Osteen's book without paying for it. Now that's what we are talking about. If the ministry has been blessed that they can afford to do such free ventures, then they shouldn't hoard the blessings. It should be spread to benefit more and more people.

Maybe you should tell him you have a brother here that wouldn't mind getting that free book

Cheers bro and i wish you the very best.

For real? Joel Osteen?

lol

Tgirl4real: To ans the topic directly, I would say yes, they should for a reasonable fee. They used money to publish the books and did not get d CDs for free. However, there should be a free version people can download for free.

Also, if the entire process was funded by some people, then they shouldn't sell.

Tgirl4real, where went thou since?

@the bolded.

I owe a great deal of my spiritual development in recent times to the materials available for free on a website hoisted by an American Sunday school teacher. All his work of 40 years or more are all available on the site for download free of charge.

I too believe we should be ready to part with money for the materials but profit shouldn't be the first thing on our minds. If the organization is buoyant enough to give them out fro free, then they should. Anyway, nlMediator has cleared up plenty things for me.

I just pray God plants a large spirit of Integrity, probity and accountability in all his Children so we can deal honestly with each other and all these corner corner things will fade away

Candour:

Tgirl4real, where went thou since?

@the bolded.

I owe a great deal of my spiritual development in recent times to the materials available for free on a website hoisted by an American Sunday school teacher. All his work of 40 years or more are all available on the site for download free of charge.

I too believe we should be ready to part with money for the materials but profit shouldn't be the first thing on our minds. If the organization is buoyant enough to give them out fro free, then they should. Anyway, nlMediator has cleared up plenty things for me.

I just pray God plants a large spirit of Integrity, probity and accountability in all his Children so we can deal honestly with each other and all these corner corner things will fade away

You said it well brother. I believe well meaning preachers wouldn't be after profit.


Have been around. Things hav been dull around here. Na soso tithe threads full everywhere.

I think they have reduced now sha. lol

Tgirl4real:

You said it well brother. I believe well meaning preachers wouldn't be after profit.


Have been around. Things hav been dull around here. Na soso tithe threads full everywhere.

I think they have reduced now sha. lol

@ the bolded

Joel is not a man of God, Christians should not listen to him. I'm surprised y'all don't know this already.
He is a new age preacher. The face of Universalism and the anti-church!
@Candour, I'm surprised you don't already know this.
If he sends a book with some dollars included, add a few dollars and mail back to him.
It is a very serious issue.

Lastly, I think we are getting used to some wrong doctrines that have lingered for so long that we can now condone them.
Selling even for lower than the cost, messages etc, is wrong.
I will have to see where Jesus or the Apostles did or encourage such to give a rethink.
I rather stick to scripture than use business logic to analyze the things of the Spirit.

What we should think of is how to earn money and pay for it or get others who will pay for the materials and it should be given out FREE OF CHARGE!
I will not an inch condone any form of exchange.

Not to mention the fact that it is absolutely wrong and against scripture to SELL in the place of fellowship.

fr_evangel: Joel is not a man of God, Christians should not listen to him. I'm surprised y'all don't know this already.
He is a new age preacher. The face of Universalism and the anti-church!
@Candour, I'm surprised you don't already know this.
If he sends a book with some dollars included, add a few dollars and mail back to him.
It is a very serious issue.

Lastly, I think we are getting used to some wrong doctrines that have lingered for so long that we can now condone them.
Selling even for lower than the cost, messages etc, is wrong.
I will have to see where Jesus or the Apostles did or encourage such to give a rethink.
I rather stick to scripture than use business logic to analyze the things of the Spirit.

What we should think of is how to earn money and pay for it or get others who will pay for the materials and it should be given out FREE OF CHARGE!
I will not an inch condone any form of exchange.

Not to mention the fact that it is absolutely wrong and against scripture to SELL in the place of fellowship.

My bro, i didnt want to derail your thread. Actually nlMediator and i have had a discussion about Joel Osteen in the past on this thread below

https://www.nairaland.com/1435400/false-promise-prosperity-gospel-why#18106878

So i'm sure sure we both know where we stand on his Doctrine.

fr_evangel: @Joagbaje,

Your desperation to support merchandising the brethren makes me wonder who you are. You sound desperate.

I'm not a publisher, but I buy many many many materials as every knowledgeable person should do.

You came into the thread with a ME vs THEM attitude.
If you notice, I mentioned some genuine ministers close to me who sell their materials. I have spoken to some and will do to others. I once sold materials too, though not my personal publications. But I can't any more, it's not of God.

Let me ask you a question ,Do you buy christian books?

1. Selling Bible is different from what we are talking about here. Bible is published by anyone, probably not even a believer.

So your point that christian can buy books from unbeliever but they shouldn't buy from ministries right. You don't have any problem with the buying so long as the church or ministry don't get a dime right?

[quote]2. Jesus did not specifically tell the Apostles not to sell miracles:

!


There's nothing to sell in the message . It's only an announcement .and even at that Jesus told them to recieve welfare , supports and clothes from the people, people pay them. Sowed seeds you may say.

Matthew 10:8-10
Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils:freely ye have received, freely give. Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves:for the workman is worthy of his meat.

So naturally they were to get money from people .

look at the phrase" Freely recieve " question , what did they recieve ? They recieved power to heal . Not an announcement . Every Jew was aware
Kingdom was coming . They only need to tell people the kingdom has come .But the power to heal and cast devils is what Jesus told them not to commercialize

Read it here;
Mark 6:7
And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;

They didn't need power to preach . The power to preach came after Pentecost . Because they have yo speak to the spirit of men for regeneration.

3. Naaman became a "believer". Read through to verse 19.

That's his cup of tea. Anyone who witness supernatural ought to believe in a God that did what his God didn't do. The prophet didn't preach any gospel to him. You may quote the verse if he did. He acknowledged God but he didn't get converted to Judaism which was the gospel of that day.

It is also false to say Naaman was a proud man.

He was a proud man. You observe the prophet had to humble him. And he was even angry with the man of God. and went away angrily . He wanted to wash in swimming pool

2 Kings 5:11
But Naaman was angry and went away and said, Behold, I thought he would surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the Lord his God, and wave his hand over the place and heal the leper.

You are also wrong to say he gave gifts for the miracle, NO. He wanted to show appreciation, as is commonly done by rich people and many customs in those days and now. Like someone doing thanks giving for something done for him/her.

And what's the thing he did for him ? HEALING!

4. Lastly, I am here not to criticize

Why do we criticize the body of christ in view of sinners and expect them to give their hearts to christ.

Candour:

My bro, i didnt want to derail your thread. Actually nlMediator and i have had a discussion about Joel Osteen in the past on this thread below

https://www.nairaland.com/1435400/false-promise-prosperity-gospel-why#18106878

So i'm sure sure we both know where we stand on his Doctrine.

I have joined the discussion, but I'll quote my post here:

There is a difference between a Christian teaching errors and false prophets and teachers.

Joel is not a Christian, he doesn't even know what the gospel of salvation is. I have listened to him both when I used to think he is and now that I know better.

If a preacher teaches error, he can be corrected. But when a false teacher teaches, you cannot correct him because his intention is exactly what he is doing. You can only stay away from him and warn others.

Joel (and many others) do not just preach error, he has DENIED the fundamentals of the gospel. He has denied the purpose of the cross.
Joel preaches Universalism. It is in the preparation of the New Age church under the New World Order that will be led by the anti-Christ.

There is a lot I cannot mention here. I have listened to Joel, again and again, I can only conclude he is not a believer.

Joagbaje:

I'm not a publisher, but I buy many many many materials as every knowledgeable person should do.



Let me ask you a question ,Do you buy christian books?

I don't know why you keep missing what Jesus sent the Apostles to do.
Let me help you this last time since it's not really the purpose of this thread: Acts 1:8; Acts 2:38; Acts 4:33; Mark 16:15-18;
The assignment is always the same, Go preach the gospel of Christ our saviour, heal the sick, and other signs and manifestations of the gifts of the Spirit follow you as you go.

Your pastor did not preach "the gospel of healing" in all his Total Experience, Higher Life Conference, CRC, Aba Miracle Crusade, Good Friday Miracle Night, Night of Bliss etc. He simply preached the gospel but there were healings and miracles, right?

@topic
I buy books and even sold for the same ministry as you.
I stopped buying for some time now. But still have access to large collection of messages from great number of pastors online.
If only you know how the pursuit and worship of Mammon has weaken the effect of true evangelism and soul winning.

I have explained that I do not criticize the BODY OF CHRIST. No true believer does that.
What I'm doing is clear: 2 Timothy 3:
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

There is nothing wrong in doing that, your pastor does that too.

My brodas u all av spoken Well one way or oda. But d truth remains dat every gud child of God must b led by d spirit of God.
We av had dat it written dat ministers live by d gospel. But n6t making merchandise frm people is it very wrong.
If a book is sposnor by individual or members of a church dat book is espected 2b given out freely. But if single handedly sponsor by d pastor of d church it is espected 2mak living out of it if he is permited by d Holy spirit 2 do so.
I wi strongly advise ministers 2 allow d Holy Spirit 2b deir centre point in deir heart on how 2go about doing tins.
D issue of selling materials in d church y service is going on is very wrong. Let it b outside d church.
I strongly advise dat dey should mak it afford 4 people 2 av it.
But in all tins we do let d Holy Spirit led us ok. God bless us. It is well.

fr_evangel: @Joagbaje,

I went through some of your topics and noticed you have a lot of "cut and paste" from Pastor Chris Oyakhilome.
I can understand your zeal to defend this error now.

The grace of Our Lord Jesus be with you.

Don't get personal , just deal with facts from scriptures ,

fr_evangel:
I don't know why you keep missing what Jesus sent the Apostles to do.
Let me help you this last time since it's not really the purpose of this thread: Acts 1:8; Acts 2:38; Acts 4:33; Mark 16:15-18;

The scriptures you're quoting is for the church. Deal with disciples before the cross. He gave them assignment to go an announce him. Then he gave them power to heal and to cast out devils. And he told them , this power you have recieved came to you freely use it freely. He wasn't talking about message . Because they didn't need power to preach message . Appolos didn't have the holyghost yet mightily in scriptures . Anyone can preach.

Acts 18:24
And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures,

The assignment is always the same, Go preach the gospel of Christ our saviour, heal the sick, and other signs and manifestations of the gifts of the Spirit follow you as you go.

Your pastor did not preach "the gospel of healing" in all his Total Experience, Higher Life Conference, CRC, Aba Miracle Crusade, Good Friday Miracle Night, Night of Bliss etc. He simply preached the gospel but there were healings and miracles, right?

Don't get personal with me let's deal with scriptures. It's the power and miracles that can be commercialized not salvation message.

Please read this scripture.

Acts 8:18
And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles 'hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

Question : what was simon offering them money for? The eloquent speech or the power?

Pls correct your self in this error.

fr_evangel:
@topic
I buy books and even sold for the same ministry as you.
I stopped buying for some time now. But still have access to large collection of messages from great number of pastors online.

Has any of the books in your collection been a blessing to you? Then it will be hypocritical if we condemn whst is of blessing to us by discouraging others from being blessed.

If only you know how the pursuit and worship of Mammon has weaken the effect of true evangelism and soul winning.

Get my point. When we go to sinners we preach freely to them even at a cost on our side. But that is different from edifying the body . There's a message for sinners and there is message for building believers . What we have in books and tapes is for believers .if a man has a message for the edification of the church in whatever format nothing is wrong to sell it to Christians . We should rather be greatful to have such materials . I just ordered the audio version of all Kenyon's teachings , which I play from my phone on the go.thats a rare privilege I rather give God thanks for such great ideas .if Kenyon were alive I will pay him double .

Those who labour in teaching ought to be remunerated according to scriptures whatever the format they use to edify the church.

1 Timothy 5:17-18 living bible
Pastors who do their work well should be paid well and should be highly appreciated, especially those who work hard at both preaching and teaching. For the Scriptures say, "Never tie up the mouth of an ox when it is treading out the grain-- let him eat as he goes along!" And in another place, "Those who work deserve their pay!"

Some may not be pastors their callings is just to write and publish

Some have internet ministry. Whatever format we are blessed we should pay .

Galatians 6:6. Living bible
Those who are taught the Word of God should help their teachers by paying them.

The problem is that we love free things . If I get blessed by a man of God I give . If I get blessed by his book I give, the giving for the book is the purchase price.

For some materials , the price is even too cheap for their value. Imagine in 1991 I got healed of weekly malaria which had plagued me from child . I got healed reading EW KENYON small booklet "Jesus the healer" I followed the teaching in that book. I got healed till today despite mosquito bites .how much was that book ? Maybe 100 naira that time. How many drugs and injection and hospital bills I have paid and would have paid. Those who laboured in Gods word , should be appreciated .

Joagbaje:

The scriptures you're quoting is for the church. Deal with disciples before the cross. He gave them assignment to go an announce him. Then he gave them power to heal and to cast out devils. And he told them , this power you have recieved came to you freely use it freely. He wasn't talking about message . Because they didn't need power to preach message . Appolos didn't have the holyghost yet mightily in scriptures . Anyone can preach.

Acts 18:24
And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures,



Don't get personal with me let's deal with scriptures. It's the power and miracles that can be commercialized not salvation message.

Please read this scripture.

Acts 8:18
And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles 'hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

Question : what was simon offering them money for? The eloquent speech or the power?

Pls correct your self in this error.

I apologize for sounding personal. Believe I'm not and I don't want to be.

You are talking to an evangelist and you tell me you don't need the power of the Holy Spirit to preach? Are you serious?

Have you ever read Acts 1:8? All the scriptures I quoted show you clearly why the Apostles needed the power of the Holy Spirit, for effectual witnessing.
As a bible student you are supposed to know that the greatest miracle is the salvation of a lost soul! You actually think healing and working of miracles need more "power" than leading someone from darkness to light?
You seem to forget that the assignment given to the Apostles was not to go do miracles, it was to go preach the gospel, make disciples for Jesus, reconcile men to God, call men to repentance, turn them from darkness to light. Healing the sick, working of miracles are accompanying signs and "bonuses", for lack of words.

Read the following:
Matthew 28:18-20;
Acts 1:8;

Peter and the others after the outpouring of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:1-47; (especially 21, 38,39)
Acts 4;

Paul narrating his encounter with Jesus and his call:
Acts 26:16-18;
16  But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17  Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18  To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Mark 16:15-20;

 20  And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Healing and working of miracles are signs to follow but the Holy Spirit came to draw men to God.
Anybody can talk but it takes the power of the Holy Spirit to get a man out of darkness into the marvelous light of God.

The topic is different though, you can open a thread on it and I'll gladly join the discussion.
Simon's case is totally different and I intend to start a thread on that soon. You'll be shocked how people practice today what Simon did and tag it "sowing into the anointing".

fr_evangel:

You are talking to an evangelist and you tell me you don't need the power of the Holy Spirit to preach? Are you serious?

Sorry evangelist [ with due respect]

I didn't say you don't need the power to preach. Acts 1:8 was clear . And I said the power is for the church.

We are talking about the disciples before crucifixion . They didn't have the Holy Spirit in them . Jesus only gave them delegated power to heal .and you should narrow the discussion to the period quoted . The power given to the disciples and the power given to the church is different . The message they preach and the message the church preached were different .

Have you ever read Acts 1:8? All the scriptures I quoted show you clearly why the Apostles needed the power of the Holy Spirit, for effectual witnessing.

That's the church era , it's different . Apollo preached powerfully without the holyghost , that's my point. The despises in the earthly ministry of Jesus didn't have power to get men born again. They had power to heal .

fr_evangel:
. . .Simon's case is totally different and I intend to start a thread on that soon. You'll be shocked how people practice today what Simon did and tag it "sowing into the anointing".

Well I'm not in the business of criticism of the body of christ in open forum. If you want to do it go ahead but be sure you're edifying the body. Don't criticise without information. You should first find out why people do what they do before judging thy brother .of course I agree someone may do godly thing with wrong motive.

@Joagbaje

The materials have been of immense blessing and I already knew to do what I'm saying here before I saw some of these ministries online who do it.

Commercializing the gospel to anyone is wrong.
Let me tell you what is right.
Members of the church, for example, CE where you worship pay the cost of publishing ROR through partnership or sponsorship, those paid for are then given to sinners and Christians alike.
If a message is preached and recorded, it should not be sold by default. E-formats can be made available for download. If someone decides to request for a hard copy for a cost, if it has not already been paid for through partnership, he may bear the cost of producing that hard copy.
I know this sounds hard but it's because we have become used to what is done today.
I have a friend who has adopted this pattern.
You can also decide to get people to pay for several copies and then send it out as an evangelistic tool for no charge.

Joagbaje:

Sorry evangelist [ with due respect]

I didn't say you don't need the power to preach. Acts 1:8 was clear . And I said the power is for the church.

We are talking about the disciples before crucifixion . They didn't have the Holy Spirit in them . Jesus only gave them delegated power to heal .and you should narrow the discussion to the period quoted . The power given to the disciples and the power given to the church is different . The message they preach and the message the church preached were different .



That's the church era , it's different . Apollo preached powerfully without the holyghost , that's my point. The despises in the earthly ministry of Jesus didn't have power to get men born again. They had power to heal .

You are right when you said He gave them power to heal and sent them to heal as well.
Luke puts it clearer.
They were actually sent to "preach the Kingdom and to heal"
Read Luke 9:1-6; It is right to say he asked them not to receive payment for doing what he sent them to do: preaching and healing the sick.

The day you receive Christ and is born again, that is the day you were baptized in the Holy Spirit. Your pastor, Chris Oyakhilome preached this and he is correct. So to say Appolos preached without the Holy Spirit is wrong.
You cannot be saved without the Holy Spirit resting on you. He is the one that brings about the new birth.

 1 Cor 12:
13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whetherwe be Jews or Gentiles, whetherwe be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 

John 3:
5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

fr_evangel:
The materials have been of immense blessing and I already knew to do what I'm saying here before I saw some of these ministries online who do it.

If you got blessed with printed materials of others why criticise it for others who look forward to such opportunity.

@Joagbaje
Members of the church, for example, CE where you worship pay the cost of publishing ROR through partnership or sponsorship, those paid for are then given to sinners and Christians alike.

Don't talk about what you may not have proper information . And don't make it personal with me or my church. Deal with the bible .

. If someone decides to request for a hard copy for a cost, if it has not already been paid for through partnership, he may bear the cost of producing that hard copy.

What's the difference . Payment to buy , and payment to request for. Payment is payment.

I know this sounds hard but it's because we have become used to what is done today.
I have a friend who has adopted this pattern.

It's your choice , Paul refuse to marry but PETER married will you condemn peter because he didn't follow Paul's sacrifice? It's your personal choice , and God bless you and your friend for it. But don't judge others . They have the Holy Spirit leafing them.

You can also decide to get people to pay for several copies and then send it out as an evangelistic tool for no charge.

Ministers do that even more. Everyone follow the leading of the holyghost .

Joagbaje:

Well I'm not in the business of criticism of the body of christ in open forum. If you want to do it go ahead but be sure you're edifying the body. Don't criticise without information. You should first find out why people do what they do before judging thy brother .of course I agree someone may do godly thing with wrong motive.

I don't think pointing out something done wrong in by some believers with the intention to strengthen and encourage one another is wrong.
I will be glad to have another believer point my wrongs and errors to me. But it must be SOLELY based on the scriptures.
I am not the Holy Spirit so I may not understand the scriptures perfectly everytime. That's why I passionately depend on the teaching and correction of the Holy Spirit.
We are in the process of learning. And we will till Ephesians 4:13-15 is fulfilled.
So, addressing a few wrongly taught doctrines is not criticism.

Don't talk about what you may not have proper information . And don't make it personal with me or my church. Deal with the bible . 

I used CE because that's the example I have PERFECT knowledge of.

I rest my case, you can read the scriptures for yourself.
It has been a good discussion for me as I have learned and relearn, increasing in knowledge and zeal.