fr_evangel:
.

The day you receive Christ and is born again, that is the day you were baptized in the Holy Spirit. Your pastor, Chris Oyakhilome preached this and he is correct.

Leave my church of this. And face the bible

So to say Appolos preached without the Holy Spirit is wrong.

I'm going to ask you a question . Read this scripture again.

Acts 18:24
And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

Question: was apollos a christian at this time? Was he born again? Had he recieved the holy spirit to preach so mightily ?
Thanks

fr_evangel: Joel is not a man of God, Christians should not listen to him. I'm surprised y'all don't know this already.
He is a new age preacher. The face of Universalism and the anti-church!
@Candour, I'm surprised you don't already know this.
If he sends a book with some dollars included, add a few dollars and mail back to him.
It is a very serious issue.

Lastly, I think we are getting used to some wrong doctrines that have lingered for so long that we can now condone them.
Selling even for lower than the cost, messages etc, is wrong.
I will have to see where Jesus or the Apostles did or encourage such to give a rethink.
I rather stick to scripture than use business logic to analyze the things of the Spirit.

What we should think of is how to earn money and pay for it or get others who will pay for the materials and it should be given out FREE OF CHARGE!
I will not an inch condone any form of exchange.

Not to mention the fact that it is absolutely wrong and against scripture to SELL in the place of fellowship.

Sir, did u get ur bibles n study materials for free?

Did the publishers publish for free? If yes, the books should be free.

Letz remember we are in d gentile world and everythn cost money. Ideally, if we are all properly oriented, we should not wait for the man of God to ask b4 we give.

What I won't take is someone asking me to pay to listen to him or for him to explain scriptures to me.

@This topic is about selling books that in most cases are already paid for through partnership of church members. Books that are published using tithe and 'offering' and different sowing seeds moneys and then selling same materials for profit.

Will i give pastor money as show of appreciation? yes, because they have to feed too.

Will i buy some cut and paste materials lifted from the same bible that i already have and that the holy spirit is already helping me a 'priest' to understand? Materials that are printed with members money? No!

You are talking to an evangelist, hahaahahahaha. Lovely thread BTW, although the OP has itching ears. We know what and who he wants to hear from, don't we?

@OP
The two sides have their points, and there is always an extremist viewpoint. Let everyone be led by God and not copy copy.

Tgirl4real:

Sir, did u get ur bibles n study materials for free?

Did the publishers publish for free? If yes, the books should be free.

I have answered this already, check previous posts/pages.

Letz remember we are in d gentile world and everythn cost money. Ideally, if we are all properly oriented, we should not wait for the man of God to ask b4 we give.

I support giving to pastors and preachers too, but must be according to scriptures.

What I won't take is someone asking me to pay to listen to him or for him to explain scriptures to me.

In case you don't know, they have started doing this already. From using "financial target" to get into meetings, to paying for tickets, to "conference registrations" etc. They are getting bolder by the day.

My passion remains to encourage those who know they have the call, especially evangelists, to not indulge in these acts.

Image123: You are talking to an evangelist, hahaahahahaha. Lovely thread BTW, although the OP has itching ears. We know what and who he wants to hear from, don't we?

@OP
The two sides have their points, let everyone be led by God and not copy copy.

I used the sentence "You are talking to an evangelist" as a way to emphasize my passion for lost souls and young believers.
I have been that way for over a decade, I didn't put the fire there myself.


Tell me what I don't know, I'm seriously wanting to know

I have itching ears? Lol, a good joke.
If anything, I don't listen to preachers much. I do a lot of personal bible study, with prayer sessions.
If I'm guilty of anything, it would be over-filtering, not an itching ear at all.

fr_evangel:

I used the sentence "You are talking to an evangelist" as a way to emphasize my passion for lost souls and young believers.
I have been that way for over a decade, I didn't put the fire there myself.


Tell me what I don't know, I'm seriously wanting to know

I have itching ears? Lol, a good joke.
If anything, I don't listen to preachers much. I do a lot of personal bible study, with prayer sessions.
If I'm guilty of anything, it would be over-filtering, not an itching ear at all.

I agree is better to err on the side of caution.

Say the truth and shame the devil even if you offend some people.

The church takes her organization from Apostolic doctrines not from the world. In this organization, there are those in ministry of giving although, everyone is expected to give. Pastors cause confusion by mixing everyone and everything together so people don't know what is what and who is who.

What is the purpose of taking money from those in ministry of giving to support the gospel and turning around to sell to those you taking the gospel to?

And what is the truth? That christians should not sell? Sing me a lullaby instead.

The funny thing is that i have learnt more scriptural truth from nairaland this year than from books I read for years... you all should even be asking what is being taught in these books and materials. So much heresy is being taught today. Indeed the Christian bookstore is one of the most dangerous places for a.Believer to visit.

Tgirl4real:

That wan na marketing gimmick jare.

You wont know wen u will give double of what the book is worth when he asks for it. He is pre-conditioning ur mind.

Haba, my sister! Yours is a case of 'Damned if you do, damned if you don't!' People complain that books are sold for a profit and when they are given out for free, they still complain and impute ulterior motive to them. Reminds me of those people in Northern Nigeria or East Africa that tell people that donors and government agencies bringing vaccines and food items have a hidden agenda, thereby discouraging the people from accessing needed benefits. I think you've given the Op that answer to his question: Yes, pastors and ministries should sell their books because if they don't, people will accuse them of marketing gimmicks and at the end of the day many people will refuse to accept or read the books.

fr_evangel: Joel is not a man of God, Christians should not listen to him. I'm surprised y'all don't know this already.
He is a new age preacher. The face of Universalism and the anti-church!
@Candour, I'm surprised you don't already know this.
If he sends a book with some dollars included, add a few dollars and mail back to him.
It is a very serious issue.

Lastly, I think we are getting used to some wrong doctrines that have lingered for so long that we can now condone them.
Selling even for lower than the cost, messages etc, is wrong.
I will have to see where Jesus or the Apostles did or encourage such to give a rethink.
I rather stick to scripture than use business logic to analyze the things of the Spirit.

What we should think of is how to earn money and pay for it or get others who will pay for the materials and it should be given out FREE OF CHARGE!
I will not an inch condone any form of exchange.

Not to mention the fact that it is absolutely wrong and against scripture to SELL in the place of fellowship.

Your post is full of rubbish. So, the materials should not be sold because we don't find that in Scripture? And let me tell you, Joel is a much better and productive christian than you. He has led multitudes to Christ, more than you can ever hope for. He probably has a deeper christian heritage than you, spanning decades of serving God with integrity by his parents and siblings. When the devil tried to attack me and make me uninterested in spiritual matters, it was Joel that God used to raise me up. You can continue with your trash and it won't change anything.

ashieduplus: The funny thing is that i have learnt more scriptural truth from nairaland this year than from books I read for years... you all should even be asking what is being taught in these books and materials. So much heresy is being taught today. Indeed the Christian bookstore is one of the most dangerous places for a.Believer to visit.

The issue of heresy is a different ball game. Heresies has always been and will always be till Jesus comes. The issue is about christian materials being sold is it right or wrong. Doctrine apart.

.

nlMediator:

Your post is full of rubbish. So, the materials should not be sold because we don't find that in Scripture? And let me tell you, Joel is a much better and productive christian than you. He has led multitudes to Christ, more than you can ever hope for. He probably has a deeper christian heritage than you, spanning decades of serving God with integrity by his parents and siblings. When the devil tried to attack me and make me uninterested in spiritual matters, it was Joel that God used to raise me up. You can continue with your trash and it won't change anything.

I may not be his fan but hs father joy osteen Made deep impression in my life. It's really a miracle how joel is able to put such great ministry together . I and several people had thought the ministry was over expecting members to go else where but rather . It became one of America biggest churches . He doesn't have any special gift like miracles ,healing and prophetic gift yet people kept thronging there.

fr_evangel:

I used CE because that's the example I have PERFECT knowledge of.

I rest my case, you can read the scriptures for yourself.
It has been a good discussion for me as I have learned and relearn, increasing in knowledge and zeal.

No, you do not have perfect knowledge of CE. Otherwise, you'd not have written what you wrote about how the ROR is distributed. Simply put, it is also sold, which is contrary to your claim.

Joagbaje:

I may not be his fan but hs father joy osteen Made deep impression in my life. It's really a miracle how joel is able to put such great ministry together . I and several people had thought the ministry was over expecting members to go else where but rather . It became one of America biggest churches . He doesn't have any special gift like miracles ,healing and prophetic gift yet people kept thronging there.

We should be careful about making gifts the yardstick for ministry,Thank God for gifts,but teaching the WORD is better.This is where Hagin outlasted the others.

fr_evangel:

I have answered this already, check previous posts/pages.


I support giving to pastors and preachers too, but must be according to scriptures.



In case you don't know, they have started doing this already. From using "financial target" to get into meetings, to paying for tickets, to "conference registrations" etc. They are getting bolder by the day.

My passion remains to encourage those who know they have the call, especially evangelists, to not indulge in these acts.

Obviously, you plan to limit your evangelism to the bush. Because if you plan to reach multitudes in the city, that may require renting a big stadium or auditorium. And millions of naira to pay for it. Perhaps, you'll wait for the money to rain from heaven. Or you'd ask people to subsidize it through free will offerings and conference fees. BTW, nothing wrong with preaching in the bush. And with the kind of damage you're likely to cause with a big platform, as evident from your attacks here, such limit is not bad.

nlMediator:
No, you do not have perfect knowledge of CE. Otherwise, you'd not have written what you wrote about how the ROR is distributed. Simply put, it is also sold, which is contrary to your claim.

I tried to point same to him. ROR is sold . Partners only pay for the copies they want to distribute free. Which means the partners bought them to be given out. The free ones are stamped so there's no way someone will go back to sell the ones marked for free distribution . The guy was just trying to get at me for no reason.

fr_evangel:

I used the sentence "You are talking to an evangelist" as a way to emphasize my passion for lost souls and young believers.
I have been that way for over a decade, I didn't put the fire there myself.


Tell me what I don't know, I'm seriously wanting to know

I have itching ears? Lol, a good joke.
If anything, I don't listen to preachers much. I do a lot of personal bible study, with prayer sessions.
If I'm guilty of anything, it would be over-filtering, not an itching ear at all.

You don't listen much to other preachers, but you're heare preaching to us? Why don't you advise us to do what you do: just read the scriptures and pray? Instead, you spend time teaching us. And if another person does it, it becomes a bad thing - so bad you avoid listening to them. You confirm the point about itching ears - because you avoid those not saying what you want to hear.

nlMediator:

Obviously, you plan to limit your evangelism to the bush. Because if you plan to reach multitudes in the city, that may require renting a big stadium or auditorium. And millions of naira to pay for it. Perhaps, you'll wait for the money to rain from heaven. Or you'd ask people to subsidize it through free will offerings and conference fees. BTW, nothing wrong with preaching in the bush. And with the kind of damage you're likely to cause with a big platform, as evident from your attacks here, such limit is not bad.

ashieduplus: The funny thing is that i have learnt more scriptural truth from nairaland this year than from books I read for years... you all should even be asking what is being taught in these books and materials. So much heresy is being taught today. Indeed the Christian bookstore is one of the most dangerous places for a.Believer to visit.

Yeah, but have you asked where those you learnt from learnt their stuff? Perhaps by reading other people's books and using their materials (DVDs, etc). And some of those materials were not obtained free of charge. That's the point.

nlMediator:

Obviously, you plan to limit your evangelism to the bush. Because if you plan to reach multitudes in the city, that may require renting a big stadium or auditorium. And millions of naira to pay for it. Perhaps, you'll wait for the money to rain from heaven. Or you'd ask people to subsidize it through free will offerings and conference fees. BTW, nothing wrong with preaching in the bush. And with the kind of damage you're likely to cause with a big platform, as evident from your attacks here, such limit is not bad.

hehehehehehehe, you're gonna hurt somebody oh.

Joagbaje:

The guy was just trying to get at me for no reason.

There was a reason.TITHES

Joagbaje:

I tried to point same to him. ROR is sold . Partners only pay for the copies they want to distribute free. Which means the partners bought them to be given out. The free ones are stamped so there's no way someone will go back to sell the ones marked for free distribution . The guy was just trying to get at me for no reason.

I noticed you tried to point it out and I thought he'd catch it. That's the problem with these "I know-better-than-everybody-else" critics. They have no idea how much they do not know.

fr_evangel:

I do not totally agree that they are all out to buy private jets. I know a few who are not merchandising the brethren yet missed it here.
The error precedes the error of "wealth/prosperity" gospel.

Where is Goshen, Christemmbassey, Candour, Pastor Kun, Frosbel and the rest.
I love to hear from you.

Also when a different view was aired(by Jo), the OP was just giving some yada yada about derailing the thread. As in, allow some civil discussion for God's sake, as it were.

Bidam: We should be careful about making gifts the yardstick for ministry,Thank God for gifts,but teaching the WORD is better.This is where Hagin outlasted the others.

I agree we should be careful and I don't think the brother was making gifts a yardstick. I should add though that Hagin had a lot of miracles. He had a 'healing school.' Same thing with Copeland - people don't now there are tons of healings and miracles in his ministry. There are also lots of miracles in Joel's ministry, starting from his father and continuing with him. His mother was healed of terminal cancer and is still alive today, 30 years later. She conducts monthly healing meetings in church. There are tons of prayer ministers at Lakewood praying for people's various needs. Joel and others pray for people during every service one on one. One day I needed some money for a major project and wondered if I should travel to get the money. When I went to Lakewood, I felt God speaking to people to join the prayer line during service. I did. We agreed. I traveled. The money came through the travel, with some change on top of it. And we're talking of tens of thousands of dollars. People get miracles thorugh Joel himself, although he approaches it differently. E.g., a woman was trying hard to conceive after many years of marriage. She came to Joel. Joel talked to her about changing her thinking. Not long, she conceived. Some other preacher [including Joel's dad] would have cast out demons of barreness, done family deliverance, etc to get at the results and that's fine by me. The point is that he got the same results with his style of teaching and prayer.

Joagbaje:

I may not be his fan but hs father joy osteen Made deep impression in my life. It's really a miracle how joel is able to put such great ministry together . I and several people had thought the ministry was over expecting members to go else where but rather . It became one of America biggest churches . He doesn't have any special gift like miracles ,healing and prophetic gift yet people kept thronging there.

His father's book on the Holy Ghost in-filling was a big blessing to me when I was a student in Nigeria. His father was a towering figure in Houston and when he died the news people started saying the church was going to collapse soon. Instead, within a few years, Joel took the church from 5,000 to about 16,000. Amazingly, unlike most churches in America that are dominated by one racial group, his father had a church that was roughly 1/3 white, 1/3 black and 1/3 hispanic. When the church got to 16,000, it still maintained the father's balance! Now, the church is about 45,000 members and by far the largest church in America. I don't think there's even another church that has up to 30,000 members let alone 45,000.

Bidam: We should be careful about making gifts the yardstick for ministry,Thank God for gifts,but teaching the WORD is better.This is where Hagin outlasted the others.

I guess you misunderstood me. I wasn't recommending gift as yardstick . His father was a miracle worker . But I didn't really see him flow in such grace yet he had more people. It's a sign it's God working grace through him.

Joagbaje:

The scriptures you're quoting is for the church. Deal with disciples before the cross. He gave them assignment to go an announce him. Then he gave them power to heal and to cast out devils. And he told them , this power you have recieved came to you freely use it freely. He wasn't talking about message . Because they didn't need power to preach message . Appolos didn't have the holyghost yet mightily in scriptures . Anyone can preach.

Acts 18:24
And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures,



Don't get personal with me let's deal with scriptures. It's the power and miracles that can be commercialized not salvation message.

Please read this scripture.

Acts 8:18
And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles 'hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

Question : what was simon offering them money for? The eloquent speech or the power?

Pls correct your self in this error.

i had decided to only follow this thread for a while, but this ur post has forced me out. Joa it is very very sad that u should av such a mind. Imagine u advocating for trading on d word of God, so u mean, d power to heal etc was given by God, but inspiration to preach was bought therefor, should b sld for profit? It is a pitty dat uve been sold totally to worldliness and greed, i we'v bn vindicated for calling tithe collectors fraudsters. U asked for support b4 u write a book, when d writting is done, u asked 4 assistance to publish, after u've published, u asked for partnership to distribute and then sell at 10x d production cost. How much did u pay God n d holy phost? This is very unfortunate. U think God took u to CEC to complicate things? Pls brother, ask urself, why am i here? God bless.

christemmbassey: i had decided to only follow this thread for a while, but this ur post has forced me out. Joa it is very very sad that u should av such a mind. Imagine u advocating for trading on d word of God, so u mean, d power to heal etc was given by God, but inspiration to preach was bought therefor, should b sld for profit? It is a pitty dat uve been sold totally to worldliness and greed, i we'v bn vindicated for calling tithe collectors fraudsters. U asked for support b4 u write a book, when d writting is done, u asked 4 assistance to publish, after u've published, u asked for partnership to distribute and then sell at 10x d production cost. How much did u pay God n d holy phost? This is very unfortunate. U think God took u to CEC to complicate things? Pls brother, ask urself, why am i here? God bless.

You deserve no answer

2 Timothy 2:23
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

"word of faith movement" thing.