xclusive43:
The Noble Verses are clearly speaking about divorce of women , and there are three categories of those women :
1- Women who are very old.
2- Women who have not had their monthly period at the time of the divorce.
3- Women who are pregnant at the time of the divorce.
For point #2, it doesn't necessarily have to mean that the woman was a young girl. To me, it is clearly talking about the wife not
having her period yet when the divorce happened.

Abeg I no fit laugh for this funny explanation.

I gave you another verse in Suratul Baqarah that speaks about the Iddah of matured women who are menstruating (Baqarah verse 234) and I showed you a narration that states how the revelation of verse 4 in suratul Talaq came about. Let me post it again;
Ubay bin Ka`b said, "O Allah's Messenger! Some women were not mentioned in the Qur'an, the young, the old and the pregnant.'' Allah the Exalted and Most Honored sent down this Ayah,
"(Those in menopause among your women, for them the `Iddah, if you have doubt, is three months; and for those who have no courses. And for those who are pregnant, their `Iddah is until they lay down their burden.) Ibn Abi Hatim recorded a simpler narration than this one from Ubay bin Ka`b who said, "O Allah's Messenger! When the Ayah in Surat Al-Baqarah was revealed prescribing the `Iddah of divorce, some people in Al-Madinah said, `There are still some women whose `Iddah has not been mentioned in the Qur'an. There are the young, the old whose menstruation is discontinued, and the pregnant.' Later on, this Ayah was revealed,
"(Those in menopause among your women, for them the `Iddah, if you have doubt, is three months; and for those who have no courses.)''
Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs

^^^^^^The first iddah verse that was revealed in the quran was in Suratul Baqarah verse 234 and that verse gave instructions for only the iddah of matured women who had started having courses. After the verse was revealed, Ubay ibn Ka'b complained to the prophet that there was no iddah for old menopausal women, immature girls and pregnant women and thereafter the prophet recited the verse containing the iddah of these three women to him.

The verse in suratul talaq is NOT talking about matured women who are currently not menstruating because the iddah of those women have already been specified in suratul baqarah verse 234.

Women on average have 10 days of menstruation each month. Point #2 is speaking about the 20 other days.
As to my opinion, the scholars' interpretations are sometimes partial. They do not cover the latter Laws that came to abrogate the current Laws that they're commenting on. This misleads the reader. As to the menstruation and the minimum age for marriage, I am not sure if the girl having her first period is the line that determines when she can get married or not. The ample Holy Verses that I quoted in this article are clear about:

Are you kidding me? Women have 10 days of menstruation each month? Are you serious?
The average number of days for menstruation in females is 5 days, not ten days
Some women menstruate for up to 7 days but those ones are few. The majority last just for 5 days so whatever explanation you gave there concerning 10 days menstruation is null and void.
@bold, at least you admitted that you don't know if menses should start before marriage. Kudos on the honesty.

As to the tafaseer (interpretations) that you provided, they remain limited to their authors. They are not part of the Noble Quran. They are only interpretations and personal opinions of the Mufassireen (interpreters), and the Hadiths therein are either:
1- Fabrications and lies that were put on the mouths of the companions and the Prophet as many false hadiths were exposed. Notice the long chain of narrators that your source presented:
Al Wahidi said: "Abu Ishaq al-Muqri’ informed us> Muhammad ibn ‘Abd Allah ibn Hamdun> Makki ibn ‘Abdan> Abu’l-Azhar>Asbat ibn Muhammad> Mutarrif> Abu ‘Uthman ‘Amr ibn Salim
That's 8 people!

So in other words your Sahih hadith are not all accurate? If I understand you clearly, you are telling me that your Sahih hadith contain errors not so?
I hope you know that Sahih hadith are the highest rated hadith in Islam, they are regarded as the most accurate and soundest hadith of all the other types of hadith. If your best hadith can contain errors and contradictions then why are they called 'sound hadith'? And if the best hadith are flawed and contain mistakes that means no hadith at all can be considered trustworthy which basically renders all of them useless.

As for the tafsir I showed you, the very best and trustworthy interpreters of the quran are the ones I quoted, I didn't quote tafsir authors that are known to tell lies or fabricate meanings of verses. Go through the list of tafsir authors I quoted and verify what I said.

What you are doing now is nothing but escape tactics.
You have nothing else to stand on, no proof to back up your claims, no evidence that the tafsir or hadith I posted were false, you just claim that they were fabricated and innacurate because you don't like the fact that they expose the ugly side of your religion.
Show me evidence that Ibn kathir was lying in his tafsir and show me evidence that the Sahih hadith was fabricated, don't just speculate. 8 narrators in the chain of a Sahih hadith does not make the Sahih hadith invalid.

De Beauvoir:

Abeg I no fit laugh for this funny explanation.

I gave you another verse in Suratul Baqarah that speaks about the Iddah of matured women who are menstruating (Baqarah verse 234) and I showed you a narration that states how the revelation of verse 4 in suratul Talaq came about. Let me post it again;
Ubay bin Ka`b said, "O Allah's Messenger! Some women were not mentioned in the Qur'an, the young, the old and the pregnant.'' Allah the Exalted and Most Honored sent down this Ayah,
"(Those in menopause among your women, for them the `Iddah, if you have doubt, is three months; and for those who have no courses. And for those who are pregnant, their `Iddah is until they lay down their burden.) Ibn Abi Hatim recorded a simpler narration than this one from Ubay bin Ka`b who said, "O Allah's Messenger! When the Ayah in Surat Al-Baqarah was revealed prescribing the `Iddah of divorce, some people in Al-Madinah said, `There are still some women whose `Iddah has not been mentioned in the Qur'an. There are the young, the old whose menstruation is discontinued, and the pregnant.' Later on, this Ayah was revealed,
"(Those in menopause among your women, for them the `Iddah, if you have doubt, is three months; and for those who have no courses.)''
Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs

^^^^^^The first iddah verse that was revealed in the quran was in Suratul Baqarah verse 234 and that verse gave instructions for only the iddah of matured women who had started having courses. After the verse was revealed, Ubay ibn Ka'b complained to the prophet that there was no iddah for old menopausal women, immature girls and pregnant women and thereafter the prophet recited the verse containing the iddah of these three women to him.

The verse in suratul talaq is NOT talking about matured women who are currently not menstruating because the iddah of those women have already been specified in suratul baqarah verse 234.


Are you kidding me? Women have 10 days of menstruation each month? Are you serious?
The average number of days for menstruation in females is 5 days, not ten days
Some women menstruate for up to 7 days but those ones are few. The majority last just for 5 days so whatever explanation you gave there concerning 10 days menstruation is null and void.
@bold, at least you admitted that you don't know if menses should start before marriage. Kudos on the honesty.



So in other words your Sahih hadith are not all accurate? If I understand you clearly, you are telling me that your Sahih hadith contain errors not so?
I hope you know that Sahih hadith are the highest rated hadith in Islam, they are regarded as the most accurate and soundest hadith of all the other types of hadith. If your best hadith can contain errors and contradictions then why are they called 'sound hadith'? And if the best hadith are flawed and contain mistakes that means no hadith at all can be considered trustworthy which basically renders all of them useless.

As for the tafsir I showed you, the very best and trustworthy interpreters of the quran are the ones I quoted, I didn't quote tafsir authors that are known to tell lies or fabricate meanings of verses. Go through the list of tafsir authors I quoted and verify what I said.

What you are doing now is nothing but escape tactics.
You have nothing else to stand on, no proof to back up your claims, no evidence that the tafsir or hadith I posted were false, you just claim that they were fabricated and innacurate because you don't like the fact that they expose the ugly side of your religion.
Show me evidence that Ibn kathir was lying in his tafsir and show me evidence that the Sahih hadith was fabricated, don't just speculate. 8 narrators in the chain of a Sahih hadith does not make the Sahih hadith invalid.

The pdf I uploaded above in page nine explains everything... As I said am done here.

xclusive43:
The pdf I uploaded above in page nine explains everything... As I said am done here.

I couldn't download the pdf, I got a message that the file could harm my computer so I left it alone.
vvvvvvvv


Besides even if I could download it, do you think I have the time to go through pages of apologist bullcrap?
I've got better things to do with my time, I can't sit down to start reading through pathetic made up lies that were concocted by your modern scholars with the intention of making Islam look like it does not condone marriage to immature children.

Tell me the summary of what is in the pdf file so I can refute it the way I've refuted all your other claims on this thread

De Beauvoir:

I couldn't download the pdf, I got a message that the file could harm my computer so I left it alone.
vvvvvvvv


Besides even if I could download it, do you think I have the time to go through pages of apologist bullcrap?
I've got better things to do with my time, I can't sit down to start reading through pathetic made up lies that were concocted by your modern scholars with the intention of making Islam look like it does not condone marriage to immature children.

Tell me the summary of what is in the pdf file so I can refute it the way I've refuted all your other claims on this thread

you wrote: The collector of the so-called sound narrations, Imam al-Bukahri narrated: Narrated Sahl bin Sad: While we were sitting in the company of the Prophet a woman came to him and presented herself for marriage to him. The Prophet looked at her, lowering his eyes and raising them, but did not give a reply. One of his companions said, " Marry her to me O Allah’s Apostle " The Prophet asked him, "Have you got anything ? " He said, " I have got nothing." The Prophet said, " Not even an iron ring ? " He said, " Not even an iron ring, but I will tear my garment into two halves and give her one half and keep the other half. " The Prophet; said, " No. Do you know some of the Quran (by heart) ? " He said, " Yes." The Prophet said, " Go, I have agreed to marry her to you with what you know of the Qur'an (as her Mahr)."

'And for those who have no courses (i.e. they are still immature). (65.4) And the 'Iddat for the girl BEFORE PUBERTYis three months (in the above Verse). (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 63; emphasis ours)

Response: The christian missionary relies your
opinion on an english translation of the heading of a chapter. The Sahl bin Sa'd ahadith ends at: "Go, I have agreed to marry her to you with what you know of the Qur'an". What is mentioned next , the fat quoted text by sham shamoun, is not a hadeeth but part of the title of the next chapter in sahih al-bukhari

De Beauvoir:

I couldn't download the pdf, I got a message that the file could harm my computer so I left it alone.
vvvvvvvv


Besides even if I could download it, do you think I have the time to go through pages of apologist bullcrap?
I've got better things to do with my time, I can't sit down to start reading through pathetic made up lies that were concocted by your modern scholars with the intention of making Islam look like it does not condone marriage to immature children.

Tell me the summary of what is in the pdf file so I can refute it the way I've refuted all your other claims on this thread

you wrote: The collector of the so-called sound narrations, Imam al-Bukahri narrated: Narrated Sahl bin Sad: While we were sitting in the company of the Prophet a woman came to him and presented herself for marriage to him. The Prophet looked at her, lowering his eyes and raising them, but did not give a reply. One of his companions said, " Marry her to me O Allah’s Apostle " The Prophet asked him, "Have you got anything ? " He said, " I have got nothing." The Prophet said, " Not even an iron ring ? " He said, " Not even an iron ring, but I will tear my garment into two halves and give her one half and keep the other half. " The Prophet; said, " No. Do you know some of the Quran (by heart) ? " He said, " Yes." The Prophet said, " Go, I have agreed to marry her to you with what you know of the Qur'an (as her Mahr)."

'And for those who have no courses (i.e. they are still immature). (65.4) And the 'Iddat for the girl BEFORE PUBERTYis three months (in the above Verse). (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 63; emphasis ours)

Response: The christian missionary relies your
opinion on an english translation of the heading of a chapter. The Sahl bin Sa'd ahadith ends at: "Go, I have agreed to marry her to you with what you know of the Qur'an". What is mentioned next , the fat quoted text by sham shamoun, is not a hadeeth but part of the title of the next chapter in sahih al-bukhari

باب إنكاح الرجل ولد الصغار لقول تعالى { واللائي لم يحضن } فجعل عدتا ثلاثة أشر قبل البلوغ
something like: “Chapter on ( the permissibility of ) a man marrying off his underage daughter (which would be) in accordance with the saying of Allah "And for –“those who do not menstruate" so the `iddah was set to three months prior to buloogh."
[b]In the context of this verse prior to ‘buloogh’ refers only to ‘prior to menstruation’, since the verse speaks about those who have no courses yet. When a girl has her first menstrual period, she is general considered as having reached ‘buloogh’ / puberty. Therefor the writer here in his chapter uses the words ‘underage’ and ‘prior to buloogh’ as a reference to ‘prior to menstruation’. This can be clearly seen without doubt at the rest of the text and it’s context in connection to the quranic ayah. A lot of writers used the term ‘buloogh’ only as a reference to menstruation, since menstruation is the well known sign which shows that a girl has reached ‘buloogh’. Therefor most writers use the the term ‘prior to buloogh’ and ‘underage’ as a synonym for ‘prior to menstruation’. This can be confusing sometimes, since one could think that girls could consummate marriage before puberty, which is actually not allowed in islam. Like i mentioned before there are also other things which are a sign of having reached ‘majority’ in islam. These things are: wet dreams, breasts, public hair and the age of 15 years. Therefor a girl can only consummate marriage prior to menstruation (which is general considered as buloogh for girls) when she has already public hair, breasts or reached the age of 15 years or had a wet dream, which are also signs that a girl has reached puberty in islam. So keep in mind that the heading of this chapter only refers to girls who had not yet menstruated which can be clearly seen at the rest of the text and it’s connection to the quranic ayah[/b]

باب إنكاح الرجل ولد الصغار لقول تعالى { واللائي لم يحضن } فجعل عدتا ثلاثة أشر قبل البلوغ
something like: “Chapter on ( the permissibility of ) a man marrying off his underage daughter (which would be) in accordance with the saying of Allah "And for –“those who do not menstruate" so the `iddah was set to three months prior to buloogh."
[b]In the context of this verse prior to ‘buloogh’ refers only to ‘prior to menstruation’, since the verse speaks about those who have no courses yet. When a girl has her first menstrual period, she is general considered as having reached ‘buloogh’ / puberty. Therefor the writer here in his chapter uses the words ‘underage’ and ‘prior to buloogh’ as a reference to ‘prior to menstruation’. This can be clearly seen without doubt at the rest of the text and it’s context in connection to the quranic ayah. A lot of writers used the term ‘buloogh’ only as a reference to menstruation, since menstruation is the well known sign which shows that a girl has reached ‘buloogh’. Therefor most writers use the the term ‘prior to buloogh’ and ‘underage’ as a synonym for ‘prior to menstruation’. This can be confusing sometimes, since one could think that girls could consummate marriage before puberty, which is actually not allowed in islam. Like i mentioned before there are also other things which are a sign of having reached ‘majority’ in islam. These things are: wet dreams, breasts, public hair and the age of 15 years. Therefor a girl can only consummate marriage prior to menstruation (which is general considered as buloogh for girls) when she has already public hair, breasts or reached the age of 15 years or had a wet dream, which are also signs that a girl has reached puberty in islam. So keep in mind that the heading of this chapter only refers to girls who had not yet menstruated which can be clearly seen at the rest of the text and it’s connection to the quranic ayah[/b]

Proof that girls can only consummate marriage on the onset of puberty can be found in the sunnah of our prophet. The Prophet, peace be upon him, didn’t consummate his marriage with Aicha when she was six. He consummated his marriage with her three years later. The reason for this was that they were waiting for her to come of age, or in other words reached puberty

moreover yiu fail to realize that it was a normal custom for young people to marry at the onset of their puberty or some years later, since the prophet, peace be upon him, recommended those who had the means for it to marry. you obvious only fantasizes that older men married with younger girls, he obvious never realizes that young boys just married young girls back then, and only consummated marriage with them when they had reached puberty. In those times and biblical times it was the custom of the society, which nowadays many people fail to realize. Also puberty and adulthood in those societies back then were reached at an earlier age then today. Also it’s important to know that in islam girls have free will to choose a husband they want / like. They have the right to refuse a proposel from someone they don’t want to marry or just don’t like. So a marriage can only happen in islam if both parties agree with each other, and are happy with it. This can be found in the next hadith: Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 67 The Prophet said: “A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except after her permission “ Also the option that a girl can (not must) consummate marriage at the onset of her puberty, does not mean that girls have to marry at this age. It’s only an option. Secondly even if she has reached the onset of puberty or general age of puberty in islam, then she can only marry if she is able to. If she is not able / capable / or ready to marry or consummate marriage, then she cannot and should not marry. This rule can be found in the next hadith: Sahih Bukhari , Volume 7, Book 62, Number 3 The prophet said: “ O young people ! Whoever among you is able to marry, should marry, and whoever is not able to marry, is recommended to fast, as fasting diminishes his sexual power. “
Thirdly she can only consummate her marriage at the onset of puberty, if she and her parents are sure that there would be no harm in it for her to marry and consummate her marriage, since the prophet said:
Related by Al-Daraqutni, Ibn Majah and Ahmad. The Prophet said: “There shall be no infliction of harm on oneself or others"

xclusive43:
you wrote: The collector of the so-called sound narrations, Imam al-Bukahri narrated: Narrated Sahl bin Sad: While we were sitting in the company of the Prophet a woman came to him and presented herself for marriage to him. The Prophet looked at her, lowering his eyes and raising them, but did not give a reply. One of his companions said, " Marry her to me O Allah’s Apostle " The Prophet asked him, "Have you got anything ? " He said, " I have got nothing." The Prophet said, " Not even an iron ring ? " He said, " Not even an iron ring, but I will tear my garment into two halves and give her one half and keep the other half. " The Prophet; said, " No. Do you know some of the Quran (by heart) ? " He said, " Yes." The Prophet said, " Go, I have agreed to marry her to you with what you know of the Qur'an (as her Mahr)."
'And for those who have no courses (i.e. they are still immature). (65.4) And the 'Iddat for the girl BEFORE PUBERTYis three months (in the above Verse). (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 63; emphasis ours)
Response: The christian missionary relies your
opinion on an english translation of the heading of a chapter. The Sahl bin Sa'd ahadith ends at: "Go, I have agreed to marry her to you with what you know of the Qur'an". What is mentioned next , the fat quoted text by sham shamoun, is not a hadeeth but part of the title of the next chapter in sahih al-bukhari

This is a very blatant lie but I will let it slide because the topic of our discussion is not whether the hadith is sound or not, it is whether Islam allows marriage to prepubertal girls and you have finally agreed that it does in the other points you made.

xclusive43: باب إنكاح الرجل ولد الصغار لقول تعالى { واللائي لم يحضن } فجعل عدتا ثلاثة أشر قبل البلوغ
something like: “Chapter on ( the permissibility of ) a man marrying off his underage daughter (which would be) in accordance with the saying of Allah "And for –“those who do not menstruate" so the `iddah was set to three months prior to buloogh." In the context of this verse prior to ‘buloogh’ refers only to ‘prior to menstruation’, since the verse speaks about those who have no courses yet. When a girl has her first menstrual period, she is general considered as having reached ‘buloogh’ / puberty. Therefor the writer here in his chapter uses the words ‘underage’ and ‘prior to buloogh’ as a reference to ‘prior to menstruation’. This can be clearly seen without doubt at the rest of the text and it’s context in connection to the quranic ayah. A lot of writers used the term ‘buloogh’ only as a reference to menstruation, since menstruation is the well known sign which shows that a girl has reached ‘buloogh’. Therefor most writers use the the term ‘prior to buloogh’ and ‘underage’ as a synonym for ‘prior to menstruation’. This can be confusing sometimes, since one could think that girls could consummate marriage before puberty, which is actually not allowed in islam. Like i mentioned before there are also other things which are a sign of having reached ‘majority’ in islam. These things are: wet dreams, breasts, public hair and the age of 15 years. Therefor a girl can only consummate marriage prior to menstruation (which is general considered as buloogh for girls) when she has already public hair, breasts or reached the age of 15 years or had a wet dream, which are also signs that a girl has reached puberty in islam. So keep in mind that the heading of this chapter only refers to girls who had not yet menstruated which can be clearly seen at the rest of the text and it’s connection to the quranic ayah

Why is sex with girls who are not menstruating allowed when those girls cannot get pregnant?
Menstruation is a sign that a woman is finally able to get pregnant so why would a man sleep with a woman whose reproductive system is too immature to have children?

The start of menstruation is known as menarche. Menarche doesn't happen until all the parts of a girl's reproductive system have matured and are working together, anything prior to the start of menses implies that the girl is still immature and unfit for reproduction.

Thanks for validating my claim that Islam allows marriage to underage underdeveloped children.

modified

xclusive43: moreover yiu fail to realize that it was a normal custom for young people to marry at the onset of their puberty or some years later, since the prophet, peace be upon him, recommended those who had the means for it to marry. you obvious only fantasizes that older men married with younger girls, he obvious never realizes that young boys just married young girls back then, and only consummated marriage with them when they had reached puberty. In those times and biblical times it was the custom of the society, which nowadays many people fail to realize. Also puberty and adulthood in those societies back then were reached at an earlier age then today.

@bold, big lie, due to the poor standards of living in the past, people attained puberty at a later age than they do presently. Puberty back then started at around age 15 and not around age 11 like it is today.

Proof:
http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/children-girls-are-reaching-puberty-earlier-than-ever.html

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/04/16/early-precocious-puberty.aspx

u satisfied now ...right?? wen ever u re arguin with another muslim u wouldn't even try to bring this up again as a point.....i hav many questions to ask you but am not ready to debate with u...

xclusive43: u satisfied now ...right?? wen ever u re arguin with another muslim u wouldn't even try to bring this up again as a point.....i hav many questions to ask you but am not ready to debate with u...

You clearly haven't read the posts I submitted. Go back and read them before trying to brag.

De Beauvoir:
@bold, big lie, due to the poor standards of living in the past, people attained puberty at a later age than they do presently. Puberty back then started at around age 15 and not around age 11 like it is today.

Proof:
http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/children-girls-are-reaching-puberty-earlier-than-ever.html

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/04/16/early-precocious-puberty.aspx

Afterall that doesn't change anything.... You think I hav time your time..... Al I knw is that Aisha R. A attained the age of puberty before marriage...

xclusive43:

Afterall that doesn't change anything.... You think I hav time your time..... Al I knw is that Aisha R. A attained the age of puberty before marriage...

Alright please answer this question;

De Beauvoir:
The start of menstruation is known as menarche. Menarche doesn't happen until all the parts of a girl's reproductive system have matured and are working together, anything prior to the start of menses implies that the girl is still immature and unfit for reproduction

Why is sex with girls who are not menstruating allowed when those girls cannot get pregnant?
Menstruation is a sign that a woman is finally able to get pregnant so why would a man sleep with a woman whose reproductive system is too immature to have children?
.

texasbreed: I love the Islamic girls...so free n cheap....

You might be wrong...

sofitinted: who told u islam is abou terrorism?

people should lean to ask question when they dont know, maind you ISLAM is peace not terrorism.

Ya-Allah, I LOVE everything about ISLAM. But since you said just 3: The Holy Qur'an. The Five Pillars of Islam. The Hijab.(the praid of a muslim woman).

Talius: Islam is a very loving and peaceful religion though bOKO hARAM wants to spoil their good name..................... I luv muslims though im not one

May almighty Allah reward you.

Redcliff, may Allah open your EYES.

DJDOLA: as if I care

St.latyv:
jazakalahukhairan. U'v said it al. Islam is nothn bt peace nd unity wit muslims nd non muslim. Poor nd rich pray solat 2geda,fast 2geda,go 2 hajj 2geda nd same burial format. Jst gyv me one thing dat distinguish a rich 4rm d poor in islam? Non. Am a born,live nd die muslim insha.Allah

I love that quote. May Allah bless us all with jenat fridaus, Ameen.