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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? (4211 Views)
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Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by Alwaystrue(f): 9:02pm On Nov 12, 2013 |
ayoku777:Love has been the commandment since the beginning for I can show you in the OT where the bible says Love your neighbour as yourself and Love God. The difference is Jesus (God in flesh) came to demonstrate His love to us for uncircumcised hearts cannot love, people in the OT tried to find loopholes in the law to do what they wanted as is done in contemporary law today. The difference is Faith and Belief. That was what Jesus was always talking about. That was what the Israelites did not have. And Jesus gave us enough examples in His testament explaining the law versus the Spirit. So no matter how we try to walk around God's Word there is a Spirit behind it and even if the physical law is not broken the spiritual is. Jesus came to also cleanse us with His word and give God's laws full perfect expression. It is not just of the letter but of the Spirit. |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by ayoku777(m): 9:07pm On Nov 12, 2013 |
Alwaystrue: Then why did Jesus call it a NEW COMMANDMENT? |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by Alwaystrue(f): 9:12pm On Nov 12, 2013 |
ayoku777:Because it is new....this was the first time we will see Jesus 'in flesh' demonstrate love. @Ayoku, I have answered it in my prior post. 'Love as I have loved you', 'Love as you have seen me love' as now they had seen the God kind of love with their 'naked eyes' in the flesh for God dwelt with them. The OT folk were not priviledged to see it this way. |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by Image123(m): 9:14pm On Nov 12, 2013 |
Candour: Gal 3:24-25In referring to the law, the writer is referring to the Old Testament or Old Covenant. Like i've tried to explain, the Old Covenant or agreement was that of justification by works. That IF you do this and that, THEN you will be holy. Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. The New Covenant or agreement makes us Holy, justified and accepted without works. We are made holy by faith and justified in Jesus. Back to Galatians, notice how he uses the term. Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. Notice how he uses both the "works of the law" and "the law" to mean the same thing. Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Notice also the phrase "before faith came". Faith here is referring to the New Covenant/agreement. That we would be justified by faith. It is not referring to the gfeneral faith. Moses had faith, Abraham had faith, Hebrews 11 show us that OT folks had faith. Faith here is in reference to the new Covenant and agreement of justification. So, the Old Covenant was our school master, When faith(the new covenant) has come, we are no longer under the Old covenant. The Old Covenant taught us that we could not keep God's commandments on our own. That we had to depend on God, have faith in Him. |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by ayoku777(m): 9:16pm On Nov 12, 2013 |
Alwaystrue: The old one was love your neighbour as yourself, the new is love one another as i have loved you. The love commandment from Christ was new, it wasn't the same one that was given at sinai as you're trying to make it look. |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by Alwaystrue(f): 9:27pm On Nov 12, 2013 |
ayoku777:Ofcourse it is new.I simply asked if it meant the two great commandments are negated because of it or it is an addition? I have expanded the question. You did not answer the last one I asked. And I tried to explain the carnal man can not even love in truth. Jesus had to show us how to love for us to even be able to love others as ourself. |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by Zikkyy(m): 9:34pm On Nov 12, 2013 |
Image123: No vex, i no dey fight Image123: obedience/convenant same thing to me. you said it yourself.... Image123: ....the covenant is still about obedience. that was the requirement. Image123: The commandment contained in the covenant will naturally go with it, but the source & intent of the commandment remains. Just as stated by Ayoku, everything changed. How we apply God's law changed....... "From obeying laws to being spirit led. From keeping commandments to walking in love. And from works and self effort to grace and faith." It requires a change of nature under the new covenant. You are no longer the person you were before, you are no longer the person that would not kill simply because a law somewhere says don't kill. Now you don't kill because you love and value the life of the other person. 1 Like |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by Candour(m): 9:37pm On Nov 12, 2013 |
Image123: my bro, that scripture(Gal 3:24-25) specifically mentioned the law as school master. Are you saying the law can be used interchangeably with covenant? My understanding is that the law was only a part of the covenant. It wasn't the whole covenant. The people keep the laws and God releases the blessings. That contract of do this and i do that is the covenant or you don't think so? |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by ayoku777(m): 9:43pm On Nov 12, 2013 |
Alwaystrue: I answered the two questions in one, the love of Christ is light years ahead of the one demanded under the law. The love of Christ isnt an addition, its an outright replacement. If you were using a landline before, and i gave you a new smartphone. It can do all that the former can do and other things the former cant do. When i love others like Jesus loves me, i no longer need to love them like i love myself. And yes we couldnt even love others as ourselves much less as Christ. Thats why the love of Christ can only be shed abroad in our hearts by the holy ghost. We can't work up enough emotion to have it or express it. The new love doesnt negate the old but it moves beyond it into what it couldnt do. The old love has as much substance and reality when compared to the new, as your shadow does to your body. It is not an addition. We dont love others as Christ loved us in addition to loving them as we love ourselves |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by Alwaystrue(f): 9:53pm On Nov 12, 2013 |
ayoku777:Thanks for your post. You did not answer the entire question here. There are two greatest commandments: Love God with all your heart, soul and love your neighbour as yourself which the law and prophets are hinged making 2 commandments, I asked if the new commandment of Jesus was said to replace the two or not? You claim its a replacement....of which of them? The two or one? That's all I need to know and if it replaced just one, what about the other? I hope you understand my question now. I am not even comparing any of them. |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by ayoku777(m): 10:02pm On Nov 12, 2013 |
Alwaystrue: If Jesus called it a new commandment, then new it is, meaning it never was before then. And its a replacement not just for both but the ten and the entire law. We are to love both God and man with the love of Christ, as Christ did and as Christ would. So if you would, we should love God with the heart and mind of Christ. And this is only possible with the Holy Spirit. I think this is clear enough. |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by Nobody: 10:52pm On Nov 12, 2013 |
DrummaBoy: I needed to state my position so that my response to what other have written can be better appreciated.I guess you wanna now turn this peaceful thread into a tithe fighting argument. The Abrahamic covenant wasn't ratified by circumcision as you erroneously posted but by animal sacrifices in Gen 15. Circumcision was just a SIGN of the covenant. Even if you no need physical circumcision, me i need am. Both John the Baptist and Jesus were circumcised (Luke 1:59; 2:29). |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by Zikkyy(m): 12:14am On Nov 13, 2013 |
ayoku777: what I read you saying here is that the Christian becomes like Christ (Christ-like). The law lovers believe the spirit enables you to adhere or obey the thou shalts contained in the old covenant forgetting that you don't need the spirit to adhere to the law. A good example is the man in Mark 10:17-22. He was able to adhere to the requirement of the old covenant (the thou shalts) without assistance of the spirit, but adherence to the requirement of the law did not change him (same case for most Christians today) he valued his possessions more than anything. Christ told him to sell his possessions and follow him (Christ). that is where you need the assistance of the spirit; to follow Christ. Even an armed robbers can chose not rob to avoid going to prison, but it does not change his natural inclination to do evil. For him to hate crime, a change (from the heart) will be required. He becomes a new person with no desire to evil. For him the laws are no longer relevant. 1 Like |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by ayoku777(m): 4:04am On Nov 13, 2013 |
Zikkyy: Thanks, it is so clear. But once you try to see everything through the veil of the law, it gets argumentative. It was impossible and not even demanded to love with the love of Christ under the law. This kind of love can ONLY be shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost. And when we have it, by being led of the Spirit we can love God and man with the love of Christ. |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by ayoku777(m): 5:01am On Nov 13, 2013 |
@Alwaystrue I understand your view point very very well. You believe Christ came to show us how to obey the law of God the way he intended. That we couldnt keep the law as perfectly as God wanted, so the Father sent Christ. But thats not true. People kept the law. The young ruler said in Matthew 19v20 -ALL THESE THINGS HAVE I KEPT from my youth up. Paul also in Philippians 3v6 -touching the righteousness which is in the law, BLAMELESS. So people kept the law and obeyed it perfectly. Paul said he was blameless. In other words if it was a demand in the law, it was kept by Paul. He had no loophole. He loved the Lord with all his heart, he loved his neighbour as himself, he didnt bear false witness, he didnt covet his neighbours whatever. No blame by the standard of the law. Yet he counted them as dung v8. We don't need Jesus coz we couldnt keep the law perfectly, we need Christ coz the law was a shadow of Christ and His love. Jesus doesn't help us keep the law perfectly. He is the reason we dont need the law again. People kept the law perfectly and were still imperfect before God. For by the DEEDS OF THE LAW, there shall no flesh be justified in his sight (Romans 3v20 and Gal 2v16 and Gal 3v11). Whether you obey the law or not, it wont justify you. Coz it was a shadow of Christ and his love. If i hand you something, you cant receive it from my shadow. The law cant justify us at all. We dont need Christ coz we couldnt keep the law, people kept the law. We need Christ coz his love is the reality of what the law presented in shadow pictures. This is the part you're finding hard (i wont say impossible) to agree with. That we dont need the law again is far fetched to you. |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by shdemidemi(m): 5:10am On Nov 13, 2013 |
Image123: I am not quite sure of what you mean by the emphasised statement bro. Are you in any way saying 'faith in God' (through Christ) came to help us keep the law of Moses? |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by Alwaystrue(f): 9:39am On Nov 13, 2013 |
ayoku777:There is no argument that it is new. Jesus said we should love each other as He has loved and there was nowhere it said it replaced the first two great commandments. God is not 'one another' that was being emphasized here, Jesus gave all three comands and never said one replaced the other as you keep saying. Even I have seen two cases in the epistles where loving our neighbour as ourself is quoted. God is to be loved with all our might, souls, spirit and being and that has been properly qualified. The scripture was clear on what Jesus was saying and I have shown that in my posts so your claim that Jesus replaced Love God with all your might and love your neighbour as yourself with Love one another as I have loved you is strictly your own making. On the other issue you raised, Paul said he was blameless ACCORDING to the law..hope you know it was seen as of the letter not of the Spirit. Meaning a man may physically not commit adultery and be blameless according the law but has committed adultery in the heart thus still be blamed in the Spirit or in enmity to God due to carnality. That is what I have been trying to say if only you will understand it. So even if the physical law is met but the heart is wrong, full of hatred, envy, anger, lust, it cannot be right with God, it is just carnal working. Jesus was speaking beyond physical acts for carnal mind is enmity with God...that was the real challenge! |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by ayoku777(m): 10:09am On Nov 13, 2013 |
You believe Jesus came to add grace to the law, not replace it. You sugarcoat with semantics, but its clear from scripture. The law said love the Lord with all your heart and soul. Paul needed to have done this to be blameless. Yet he counted it as dung. And show me where love your neighbour as yourself came up after Jesus instituted love one another as i have loved you. |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by Nobody: 10:42am On Nov 13, 2013 |
ayoku777: You believe Jesus came to add grace to the law, not replace it. You sugarcoat with semantics, but its clear from scripture. The law said love the Lord with all your heart and soul. Paul needed to have done this to be blameless. Yet he counted it as dung. Lol, there is no need arguing over these issues, i understand clearly what Alwaystrue is saying.She is not promoting the mosaic laws here but making you see that the WORD(LAW) and the Spirit go together. You can't operate only in the spirit alone and say you don't need the word of God. The corinthian Churches fell into all kinds of problems when they operated only by the Spirit. The Spirit always have to agree with the Word.Paul had to write to them some set of instructions on marriage,Morals, givings worship,celibacy, etc. Quoting the same mosaic laws you are kicking against here. But in this case Paul was able to inteprete accurately by the help of the Holy Spirit the mind of God on the Law, unlike the pharisees who only see the letters and not the Spirit behind it. 1 Like |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by Alwaystrue(f): 10:44am On Nov 13, 2013 |
double post |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by Alwaystrue(f): 10:45am On Nov 13, 2013 |
ayoku777: You believe Jesus came to add grace to the law, not replace it. You sugarcoat with semantics, but its clear from scripture. The law said love the Lord with all your heart and soul. Paul needed to have done this to be blameless. Yet he counted it as dung.Lool. I knew you did not understand me, no wonder people still did not understand Jesus so it is not surprising. All Jesus spoke about 'doing' was of the Spirit. Paul was speaking for himself about being blameless and yes what he counted dung was according to the law. He was on a mission to kill and persecute when He was caught by God yet he felt he was doing according to the law of GOD. Hope you understand that it was about works without the heart and when he was arrested by God, all that changed and He started with the heart and showed us a lot of 'heart doings' of the law of Moses, guess you will say he mixed grace with law or when he said the Israelites did not mix with faith the Word they heard. Someday you will personally understand this yourself and will know I have been saying about the law of the Spirit. For the scriptures, do your own check and realise that before you start saying things are replaced you should first search scriptures. No, I won't do that for you. |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by Alwaystrue(f): 10:51am On Nov 13, 2013 |
Bidam:@Bidam, Lol. I tell you. I have maintained what I have been saying since, so surprising people still do not understand it. I am glad you understand me clearly...That is why I thought understanding the three that bear witness on earth being the Spirit, Water (Word) and the Blood had been understood. These 3 AGREE! We discern every spirit by the word of God. This same Paul quoted Moses copiously but He had to explain it with the eyes of the Spirit not just of the letter. Jesus did this first by giving us Spirit of the Word. |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by ayoku777(m): 11:00am On Nov 13, 2013 |
Alwaystrue: this is the pride that puts me off. Just say you can't find a passage to defend your point. I've searched everywhere love came up in the new testament. There is no love your neighbour as yourself after Christ instituted the new one. Just say Ayo i disagree with you. No need to sound esoteric like there's one ghen ghen holy spirit that shows only you how the new covenant still operates the law of the old |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by Alwaystrue(f): 11:03am On Nov 13, 2013 |
ayoku777:The only pride as see is not willing to search the scriptures yourself. I have personally seen 2 exactly saying so and as I said before, do your search yourself for I will not for you. I am not sure I have said anything wrong in that. If you call my asking you 'to search the scriptures yourself' to find it as pride, then there is nothing more to say. When you see it then we will know who is proud, I do not go about making claims for the fun of it. |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by DrummaBoy(m): 11:05am On Nov 13, 2013 |
Bidam: I guess you wanna now turn this peaceful thread into a tithe fighting argument. The Abrahamic covenant wasn't ratified by circumcision as you erroneously posted but by animal sacrifices in Gen 15. Circumcision was just a SIGN of the covenant. So if d Abrahamic covenant was ratified by animal sacrifices, is the New Covenant also ratified with animal sacrifice ? My debate with you is that d Abrahamic covenant is not d same as d New Covenant. And your post has proved that. As for tithing, we can never avoid it: all discusses on matters of covenants still boils down to that practice. It is an old covenant practice not binding on NT Christians under d New Covenant. |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by ayoku777(m): 11:09am On Nov 13, 2013 |
Alwaystrue: nawa o, what part of i have searched the entire new testament is ambiguous. If you've seen it your own bible, then help a brother out. I've used concordance and word search. Please show me. |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by DrummaBoy(m): 11:53am On Nov 13, 2013 |
ayoku777: @Alwaystrue I heartily endorse this gospel of the kingdom! 2 Likes |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by DrummaBoy(m): 12:07pm On Nov 13, 2013 |
ayoku777: You believe Jesus came to add grace to the law, not replace it. You sugarcoat with semantics, but its clear from scripture. The law said love the Lord with all your heart and soul. Paul needed to have done this to be blameless. Yet he counted it as dung. It may not have bin put in those words but I think John's admonisions in his epistles was all about loving our neighbour. But it doesn't detract from your point that Jesus did not come to add grace to d law; rather he came to replace it. 1 Like |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by Nobody: 12:15pm On Nov 13, 2013 |
DrummaBoy: You initially said it was ratified by circumcision.Meanwhile Christ is our passover Lamb. DrummaBoy: My debate with you is that d Abrahamic covenant is not d same as d NewI have never said what you wrote above. I said the Abrahamic covenant is foundational to understanding both the NT and OT and every other covenants is as a result of the outworking of this covenant which is not obsolete but in effect till date. |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by DrummaBoy(m): 12:33pm On Nov 13, 2013 |
Bidam: Thank God you accept Christ is our passover; no more debate on that Bidam: This is what you said in response to Christembassey christemmbassey: you responded Bidam: Of cos i understand why your crew will click like to this error..Instead of correcting you, they will be happy to see you wallow in ignorance of scripture.SMH! Set of gnostics folks!!! Christembassey said we are not under Abraham's covenant but you said no we are. Why deny your own words now? Compare Abrahamic covenant is foundational to understanding both the NT and OT and every other covenants is as a result of the outworking of this covenant which is not obsolete but in effect till dateU just said now, with [size=16pt]Under the New Covenant, the promises of the Abrahamic Covenant are valid, and Abraham is our spiritual father[/size], as it were.[/b]you said before now Do they means same thing? From d first quote, if Abraham's covenant is still operating, are you not saying d new covenant is same as Abraham's? |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by Nobody: 12:33pm On Nov 13, 2013 |
@Ayo..Have you considered Roman 13:9-10 which was referenced from Lev 19:18 by Paul? Also Law and Love have no quarrel.The conflict arise between Law and grace as a way of salvation. |
Re: What Is The New Covenant, And What Is The Old Covenant? by Nobody: 12:44pm On Nov 13, 2013 |
DrummaBoy:May be you have a problem with comprehension. If the Abrahamic covenant does not apply to you. It applies to me as heir of the promises of God.And i still stand by what i wrote with scriptures to validate it. |
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