Bidam: May be you have a problem with comprehension. If the Abrahamic covenant does not apply to you. It applies to me as heir of the promises of God.And i still stand by what i wrote with scriptures to validate it.

end of discussion. I believe I have made my point!

ayoku777: @Alwaystrue

I understand your view point very very well. You believe Christ came to show us how to obey the law of God the way he intended. That we couldnt keep the law as perfectly as God wanted, so the Father sent Christ. But thats not true.

People kept the law. The young ruler said in Matthew 19v20 -ALL THESE THINGS HAVE I KEPT from my youth up. Paul also in Philippians 3v6 -touching the righteousness which is in the law, BLAMELESS.

So people kept the law and obeyed it perfectly. Paul said he was blameless. In other words if it was a demand in the law, it was kept by Paul. He had no loophole. He loved the Lord with all his heart, he loved his neighbour as himself, he didnt bear false witness, he didnt covet his neighbours whatever. No blame by the standard of the law. Yet he counted them as dung v8. We don't need Jesus coz we couldnt keep the law perfectly, we need Christ coz the law was a shadow of Christ and His love. Jesus doesn't help us keep the law perfectly. He is the reason we dont need the law again. People kept the law perfectly and were still imperfect before God.

For by the DEEDS OF THE LAW, there shall no flesh be justified in his sight (Romans 3v20 and Gal 2v16 and Gal 3v11). Whether you obey the law or not, it wont justify you. Coz it was a shadow of Christ and his love. If i hand you something, you cant receive it from my shadow.
The law cant justify us at all. We dont need Christ coz we couldnt keep the law, people kept the law. We need Christ coz his love is the reality of what the law presented in shadow pictures.

This is the part you're finding hard (i wont say impossible) to agree with. That we dont need the law again is far fetched to you.

Glory! Glory!!. God bless u Bro.

ayoku777:

Yeah, thats exactly the heresis that is not being addressed. That the covenant has changed from old to new but the terms and law of the old is still what is being used under the new. That couldn't be farther from the truth. Hebrews 7v12 -for the priesthood being changed, there is made of NECESSITY a CHANGE also of THE LAW.

Everything has changed. From old covenant to new covenant. From aaronic priesthood to melchizedek priesthood. From obeying laws to being spirit led. From keeping commandments to walking in love. And from works and self effort to grace and faith.

Everything changed. We need to stop trying to mix the two. Its like talking with my shadow when i'm right in your face. The law is the shadow of love.

Great to see your comments. The terms of the old covenant are not still the terms under the new. The terms of the Old covenant was that IF the people obeyed God, THEN they will be holy and peculiar and acceptable, and the people agreed to the terms.
Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

The terms of the new covenant are that IF we have faith in Jesus, THEN we will be holy and peculiar and acceptable. This is justification by faith.
Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

God's Word and will have not changed. Nobody can keep all of God's words, there is no one holy as He is. But by faith and by His help, we can press on toward the mark, not to be made righteous. We are righteous by faith in Jesus. But as we get light from God, we put off some things and put on some things.
Of course, we still keep God's commandments.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
All of God's laws are summed up or summarised into One, love. But you cannot truly love without keeping God's commandments. Love is the keeping of God's commandments.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
(GNB) If you love others, you will never do them wrong; to love, then, is to obey the whole Law.


Obeying God is not the new agreement or new covenant. The new agreement is that IF we believe/have FAITH, we will be saved, holy, just. It is after this justification that we obey God by trusting in Him. This is grace, that at Christ's expense, we are made righteous and peculiar. But it is through faith.

DrummaBoy: The text below is taken from my blog: http://www.yesufu..com/2013/10/the-gospel-of-jesus-christ-part-5.html, The Gospel of Jesus Christ (Part 5):

Today, the church is again weighed down by laws but not necessarily the laws of Moses but our inability to distinguish the Old Testament from the New. The church today takes much of it examples for Christian doctrine and practice from the Old Testament rather than the New. Thus, the priestly order of Aaron has been conveniently converted to a league of Men of God. Rather than submit to the admonition of Jesus that says we are all brethren (Matthew 23:, we find it easier to have ordained Pastors and Bishops, who hold such authority in the church and cannot be questioned but must be revered. Any tendency to question these men, we are referred quickly to the Old Testament again were God placed a curse on those who dared challenge Moses: “touch not my anointed and do my prophets no harm”. We forget quickly that the people of God in the New Testament have been made priests and kings unto God (Revelation 1:6).

This fascination with the Old Testament extends to the church’s preoccupation with buildings. The temple in Jerusalem was the symbol of the Jewish religion. Today, the church building occupies an equal place of relevance. And regardless of the cost of building and maintaining it, the church building has become our symbol of religion too. It is this Old Testament mentality that informs tithes and offerings collected in church services; thanksgiving; child and property dedication; Sabbath observance; full time ministry; mass choir; anniversary celebrations, a queer belief that God dwells in church buildings and a host of other similar practices. None of these can be traced to the New Testament churches led by the apostles of the lamb.

Paul’s contention with the Judaizers of his time was not just because they practiced circumcision but because he was trying to ensure that the gospel and the church life that will emerge from its preaching will not be adulterated and thereby loose its potency. God meant for the church to be distinct from Israel and that distinction is not to be confused. Paul preached the doctrine of dispensations (Ephesians 1:9; 3:1-11).

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself (Ephesians 1)

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:... (Ephesians 3)

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (Hebrew 1)

11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. (Galatians 1)

A mystery doctrine that teaches that even though God never changes, He has instituted certain changes all through human history to bring about His eternal purpose of redeeming humanity to Himself. This doctrine is a mystery in the sense that it was not revealed to Old Testament Israel but to the apostles of the Lamb, who in turn taught it to the church through their epistles: and therefore the distinction between the Old and the New Testaments.

We have three dispensations that can be subdivided into two each. These are the Theocratic, Christocentric and Eschatological dispensations. The theocratic dispensation can be subdivided into the age of the gentiles and the age of Israel. The age of the gentiles will range from the time of Adam and Even, through Abraham and up till the time the nation of Israel came out of Egypt. The age of Israel will be from the time the laws were given through Moses until the time Jesus was born. Then we come into the Christocentric dispensation that can be divided into the Hypostatic Union and the Church age. The hypostatic union is the time when Jesus was born, through his earthly ministry and up till the time he died on the cross. It called hypostatic union because of the unique union of the God-man found in Jesus Christ. It also represent a unique time in the dealings of God with humanity when grace and law operated at the same time. The time of Jesus must be seen as a separate dispensation because that is the only time in history when God dwelt amongst men and it is the dispensation that makes other dispensation relevant.

Then we come into the church age, which is the dispensation were we live in the present time. It ranges from the time Jesus died on the cross up till the time when the church will be taken away in rapture. This dispensation is not characterized by the laws of Moses but solely by grace. The teachings of the apostles, particularly that of Paul, are what theologians like to call Church Age doctrines. These doctrines are particularly designed to be taught to the church: for the equipping and perfecting of the saints until we all come to the full measure of maturity in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 4:12-13, 2 Timothy 3:16-17). After rapture there shall be the eschatological dispensation that is subdivided into the time of tribulation and the millennial rule of Christ. When we understand dispensations, then we can understand the seeming discrepancies in the teachings of Paul and Jesus Christ. Jesus operated in a time of law and grace. He fulfilled the law and bequeathed its righteous requirement to the church. Paul taught that the church is no longer under the laws of Moses but under a new law that commands us to love God and men.

Drumma, just a few comments on your post. We need to note that though we are all brethren, we have elders and we have offices in the Body of Christ. We all have need of one another but we do not all do the same work. We are not all foundation in the building. Some are like curtain, some furniture, some roofing, some gadgets, some plumbing work etc. And elders that rule well should be counted worthy of DOUBLE honour. There are some people that we OBEY and that are our rulers in the body of Christ. Yes, they are not to lord it over us or oppress us, but they are little shepherds and bishops under the control of the Great Shepherd Jesus Christ.
Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Alwaystrue:
@Image, I will draw you back on this. Has the condition really 'gone'?
If people fail to heed the voice of Jesus today as God testified in Deuteronomy 18 or obey the Holy Spirit or keep the new convenant (I will help you will and do God's pleasure), will the conditions still be binding? Hmmmmn.

My sister, you're too much. God bless you for "drawing me back", and asking for clarifiation/questions. i was referring to the conditions of the Old Covenant. The conditions were that man should obey God to be holy, to be acceptable, to inherit life as it were. Today, the conditions are that we have faith in God to be holy, acceptable and have life. He that believeth has life. Of course, we still obey God, but we are obeying God to be holy or acceptable or saved. Our zeal and tears and works cannot make us holy or saved or cleanse our sins. It is like the man asking Jesus what more he needed to DO to be saved. There is nothing we can DO in that sense to be saved or inherit life. That is why Jesus simply took the man to his weak point. All that is needed is faith, but after faith, after salvation or justification or being made holy. We are to continue in good works.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them
Hope i'm clearer now?

DrummaBoy: I needed to state my position so that my response to what other have written can be better appreciated.



This is not particularly correct. I had shown you in another thread that the Abrahamic Covenant can only be likened to the New Covenant in Christ in the sense that both of them were accessed by faith (alone). The Abrahamic covenant was ratified by physical Circumcision (Genesis 17); The New Testament is ratified by Jesus blood. If the covenant is the same as the Abrahamic covenant, we would need physical circumcision. Paul wrote in the Galatians that you refered to that we do not come into the New Covenant by physical circumcision. So with all due respect, sir, you are wrong in this: The Abrahamic covenant is not the New Covenant. You need not take such a position all in the bid to justify tithing like Abraham. (just in case that is the reason you are propagating this error).

As Bidam has said, the Abraham's covenant was not by circumcision. The covenant in question is the initial covenant and it is what produced Christ the seed.
Act 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

You cannot exactly separate it as Bidam said. You come into it. See the below.
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Gentiles were strangers from the covenant. They had to come in, be grafted in. It is not the same as the new covenant but it is very valid. Paul discusses at length in Galatians that Jesus is the seed being really talked about here.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Candour:

my bro, that scripture(Gal 3:24-25) specifically mentioned the law as school master. Are you saying the law can be used interchangeably with covenant? My understanding is that the law was only a part of the covenant. It wasn't the whole covenant. The people keep the laws and God releases the blessings. That contract of do this and i do that is the covenant or you don't think so?

Yes, the law was our schoolmaster. The phrase "the law" varies in meaning depending on context. When we say "the law", we do well to also note what law. There is a certain "the law of the Spirit of life" too. The phrase "the law" was broadly used in the Bible to refer to different scopes like the commandments of God, the Pentateuch, the whole Old Testament Bible, the books of the Bible not termed Prophets, the ordinances/levitical laws. Galatains uses the phrase freely to mean the "works of the law".
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Notice that chapter 2 how he starts of with "the works of the law" phrase and ends his point in verse 21 by referring to it as "the law". Righteousness or justification does not come by the law, that is, by doing the works of the law. Its the similar thing in chapter 3. He starts off with the "works of the law"phrase and later uses just the phrase "the law" to mean the same thing. 2v16 and 2v11 are saying the same thing, but he used the phrases interchangeably.

Like you rightly said, the law was only a part of the covenant. It wasn't the whole covenant. The people keep the laws and God releases the blessings. That contract of do this and i do that is the covenant This is what i tried to explain earlier. The law was not the covenant/agreement. The covenant was IF you people keep my law THEN I will do this and that. The NEW covenant/agreement is based on faith, IF you believe, THEN this and that. God promised to write His laws in hearts instead of stone. God's words do not pass away.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
This is what happens to God's laws in the new covenant. Here it is again, repeated to the Hebrews. The Hebrews thought that the christians were teaching otherwise. Today, many of us are mistaken like the Hebrews.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Old convenant started with Abraham via circumcision.. new convenant with Yeshua: shedding His blood as atonement for sin

End of discussion

ayoku777: @Alwaystrue

I understand your view point very very well. You believe Christ came to show us how to obey the law of God the way he intended. That we couldnt keep the law as perfectly as God wanted, so the Father sent Christ. But thats not true.

People kept the law. The young ruler said in Matthew 19v20 -ALL THESE THINGS HAVE I KEPT from my youth up. Paul also in Philippians 3v6 -touching the righteousness which is in the law, BLAMELESS.

So people kept the law and obeyed it perfectly. Paul said he was blameless. In other words if it was a demand in the law, it was kept by Paul. He had no loophole. He loved the Lord with all his heart, he loved his neighbour as himself, he didnt bear false witness, he didnt covet his neighbours whatever. No blame by the standard of the law. Yet he counted them as dung v8. We don't need Jesus coz we couldnt keep the law perfectly, we need Christ coz the law was a shadow of Christ and His love. Jesus doesn't help us keep the law perfectly. He is the reason we dont need the law again. People kept the law perfectly and were still imperfect before God.

For by the DEEDS OF THE LAW, there shall no flesh be justified in his sight (Romans 3v20 and Gal 2v16 and Gal 3v11). Whether you obey the law or not, it wont justify you. Coz it was a shadow of Christ and his love. If i hand you something, you cant receive it from my shadow.
The law cant justify us at all. We dont need Christ coz we couldnt keep the law, people kept the law. We need Christ coz his love is the reality of what the law presented in shadow pictures.

This is the part you're finding hard (i wont say impossible) to agree with. That we dont need the law again is far fetched to you.

Jesus is our example. Jesus Christ obeyed the law of God the way he intended, and we ought to walk even as He walked. People did not keep the law, they couldn't. In fact, that was the whole of God's purpose in giving the law, to show man that he could not keep it. Man still thinks that he can somehow manage to. God shows that we need to depend on Him.
Joh 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Jesus said NONE of them kept the law. The testimony and verdict of God is that there is NONE righteous, not one. The young ruler THOUGHT he kept the law and was asking Christ if he was lacking. Christ in His omniscience simply pointed him to his weakness, showing that he was lacking. He couldn't keep all the commandments. Christ's disciples had left ALL as it were, but if they had asked Jesus what they lacked, He would equally have shown each of them areas where they were lacking. There is always one thing needful, one thing lacking in each person. But we press on toward the mark of the high prize, in His strength not ours.
Paul was a false witness and a murderer for instance.
Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
Act 6:13 And set up false witnesses , which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:
Act 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Act 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.

He was blameless touching the righteousness of the law, that is carnal ordinances of washing, being clean or unclean, sacrifices etc. What some call ceremonial laws. In the eyes of man, he was blameless but not before God or in his heart.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
God knew it from start that those folks could not fulfill all the law. Jesus was the one who came to fulfill the law.

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

We are redeemed from the transgressions that were under the first testament because we cannot fulfil it. We transgress it. All have sinned.

shdemidemi:

I am not quite sure of what you mean by the emphasised statement bro. Are you in any way saying 'faith in God' (through Christ) came to help us keep the law of Moses?

Yep sir. However, i meant the law of God, not the law of Moses. Grace enables us, helps us in time of need. It helps us to do the will of God. It was impossible to do the will of God as all their righteousness was as filthy rags before God in the OT.
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Luk 1:72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
Luk 1:73 The oath which he swore to our father Abraham,
Luk 1:74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
Luk 1:75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Today, we can live in victory, a victorious life is that that overcomes the world, the devil, temptations and does the will of God.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

ayoku777:

this is the pride that puts me off. Just say you can't find a passage to defend your point. I've searched everywhere love came up in the new testament. There is no love your neighbour as yourself after Christ instituted the new one.

Just say Ayo i disagree with you. No need to sound esoteric like there's one ghen ghen holy spirit that shows only you how the new covenant still operates the law of the old

She meant,
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Jam 2:8 If ye fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself , ye do well:

Image123:

Yep sir. However, i meant the law of God, not the law of Moses. Grace enables us, helps us in time of need. It helps us to do the will of God. It was impossible to do the will of God as all their righteousness was as filthy rags before God in the OT.
[color=#990000]Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.]

Isn't there a difference between the law of God to the church in the new covenant and the law given by God to Moses for the nation of Israel in the old?

If there is a difference, did the new law of God (law of the Spirit) come to help us carry out the dos and don'ts in the law of Moses?

OR

Did the death of Christ that initiated the new covenant annihilate the resultant effect of breaking the law of Moses?

beautiful, this.

People make it sound complicated but its not. The old covenant was made between God and Israel so if your not a Jew then you have never been under the old covenant. The New Covenant is that if you believe Jesus is the Son of God and that He died on the cross and rose on the third day for the forgiveness of sins and keep His word then God will not condemn us at the judgement. God has promised that He will judge all men at the end of the age. Every human has sinned against God and we are all in need of forgiveness and that is why Jesus died on the cross, so that whosoever believes will be saved. It is that simple a child can understand. The question is , Do we believe and try to obey.

GBAM!!!^^^^

A covenant goes with certain features i.e covenant promise, covenant atonement, terms and conditions, covenant relationship and covenant privileges.

Under the Old Covenant
1). The covenant promise is that Israel will be God's treasured people (Exo 19:5)
2). The covenant terms and conditions is that they obey God's commandment.
3). The covenant atonement are the regular animals sacrifice which only only cleans the body and not the soul from guilty consciousness (Heb 9:13-14).
4). The covenant relationship is that They are God's people and God is their God and king. This is why God didn't what them to have a king.
5). Covenant privileges: they enjoy blessings and the power of God working for them.

Under the New Covenant
1). Covenant promise: we would inherit the kingdom of God (Eph 1:11-14).
2). Terms and conditions of covenant: faith
3). Covenant atonement: one sacrifice Jesus made on the cross.
4). Covenant relationship: Children of God
5). Covenant privileges: The fullness of God.

Since God aways keep his covenant and fulfill the covenant promise. It is impossible for anybody under the new covenant to go to hell.