Rilwayne001: There are two Islams in the world today. (1) There is
the Islam of the Qur'an, which is one of the great
religions of the world. It is a religion of peace (not of
pacifism nor of aggression) and of divine justice (not
of divine tyranny nor of divine intimacy). (2) There is
also the Islam of the terrorists, who are murderers and
assassins, especially murderers of their fellow
Muslims. Shiites and Sunnis hate each other for their
"heresies" more intensely than either hates the West. (The London bombings deliberately targeted Muslim
neighborhoods.)
Which of these two Islams (of the Qur'an or of the
terrorists) will prevail? God only knows. But to
whateverextent the first Islam is from God, it will prevail
because God will prevail.

tbaba1234: I think it is important that people get proper knowledge in Islam before talking. What are 'Quran only' muslims? That is against the Quran itself.

Usermane, You can not seperate the Quran from its context or the example of the messenger (peace be upon him).

@Rilwayne.. I think you should get deeper understanding on these issues first before making posts.

usermane:

Brother, what is "ahlul sunna" or "sunni?", it goes against the scriptural teachings.

Please address the OP, let us not derail the thread. "Killing of apostates by muslims", that is the bone of contention.
Peace.

tbaba1234:

Ahlul sunnah means those that follow the way of the messenger. The quran tells us that we should follow the best of examples.

You can choose not to use labels, but the quran asks you to follow the example.

As regards the topic, the op has not presented the full picture.

usermane:

Ok tbaba12345, the name you call yourself is irrelevant. The question is what do you believe and preach. What more do we need from the OP? Is there anything like "Death for apostates/murtads" in the System of God? Also isnt it true that majority of muslims and their clergymen who claim to follow the messenger, put apostates to death? Is there a single verse in the Qur'an that orders for killing apostates? All through the narrations in the final testament,killing in the name of religion is a common practice of disbelievers. 'Abraham', the pagans wanted to kill for rejecting their religion,Moses, Jesus, and even Muhammad face death threats from the disbelievers.

tbaba1234:


Question: What was the punishment in the Quran for those who worshipped the calf amongst the children of Israel?

Answer that first... After that we can delve into a proper understanding of what this means.

tbaba1234:


Question: What was the punishment in the Quran for those who worshipped the calf amongst the children of Israel?

Answer that first... After that we can delve into a proper understanding of what this means.

tbaba1234:


Question: What was the punishment in the Quran for those who worshipped the calf amongst the children of Israel?

Answer that first... After that we can delve into a proper understanding of what this means.

koonbey:
It sounds like you believe Apostates should be murdered,If that is so;let's hear it,Opinions you can't state confidently and straight-forward are not worth having;trying to talk from both sides of the Mouth only makes you look like a Fool.

usermane:


There are lots of multiple meaning words in the Qur'an. The Isrealites who worshipped the calf were not ordered to be killed as the verse 54 of chapter 2 is traditionally mistranslated. Moses asked them to turn in repentance to God and deal with their idolatory ego or tendencies. Don't forget that God already forgave them in verse 52. How then after God forgave them could they still be killed? Then again Moses asked them to repent, and what next? Kill them? That is impossible.

So the Qur'an nvr penalised apostates with death. U can answer my questions and address the issue on ground. Am upset that you agree that muslims who turned away from Islam should be killed. But you don't agree that those who leave Christianity for Islam should be killed by christians.

tbaba1234:



There are no multiple meanings here.. The leaders of those who worshipped the calf were killed. Apostacy law is still in the Jewish scriptures and was practiced in Christianity for centuries.

In Islam, it is not black and white.

The first thing to say is that in islam, there is no compulsion in religion, The Quran(translated) states:

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (Quran 2:256)

However in an Islamic state, there are certain conditions where conversion is accompanied with acts that could be considered treasonable by the state. The punishment for treason is death.

The act of just conversion is not punishable in most cases, however if that conversion is accompanied by an attempt to discredit Islam or propagate another religion within the islamic state, It is considered treasonable.

The apostacy law came about during the time of the prophet;

In order to discredit Islam, some Jews in medina would accept islam in the day and leave by sunset; They continued to do so until the law was put in place.

Guess how many people did so the next day? None,

Look at the apostacy law this way;

Acts against the nation are considered treason aren't they? what is punishment for treason in 9ja?

The constitution of an Islamic state is based on Islam; If i live in the state, i abide by its laws;

If someone leaves Islam in an Islamic state for whatever reason, as long as he doesn't go around opening flaunting his belief/unbelief or trying to convert muslims. He is fine. Otherwise, It is treasonable.

He can live his life, he doesn't have to pray or fast if he doesn't want to..

Besides, the person is not just executed, he speaks to the scholars about his doubts and is provided evidences about the divinity of the Quran so as to convince him, (for three days) if that fails, he is threatened basically to shut him up from proselytizing disbelief in an Islamic state. If he relents, he is let go and can continue in his disbelief and live his normal life.

usermane: Even if a person leave Islam and start preaching against Islam, there is no injunction according to God 's revealations to kill such a person for as long as he kills nobody.
How can you kill me for turning away from your religion? Religion is not based on blind faith and constantly defending clearly evil doctrines. Religion is based on empirical evidences and morality. If you truely accept the scripture,obey and love the messenger, you cannot advocate for killing an apostate.

usisky:




Of course he does. In spite of the countless quranic evidences given in the op, you still would hear Tbaba and his ilk retort by citing
their much chrished HADITH(mismash of hearsay literature) as their response. They do not follow the message(Quran) delivered by
prophet Muhammad(this is prophetically put in Quran 25:30-31). Instead, they follow some conjectural works of men that surfaced
some two centuries after the death of Muhammad- they call it Hadith/Sunna.

Anyways, i have challenged him to a debate on few occasions, but he wouldn't man-up and accept it simply because he has no proof for
what he follows. They call us who acknowledge the message of quran alone heretics. My challenge still stands........

tbaba1234:



There are no multiple meanings here.. The leaders of those who worshipped the calf were killed. Apostacy law is still in the Jewish scriptures and was practiced in Christianity for centuries.

In Islam, it is not black and white.

The first thing to say is that in islam, there is no compulsion in religion, The Quran(translated) states:

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (Quran 2:256)

However in an Islamic state, there are certain conditions where conversion is accompanied with acts that could be considered treasonable by the state. The punishment for treason is death.

The act of just conversion is not punishable in most cases, however if that conversion is accompanied by an attempt to discredit Islam or propagate another religion within the islamic state, It is considered treasonable.

The apostacy law came about during the time of the prophet;

In order to discredit Islam, some Jews in medina would accept islam in the day and leave by sunset; They continued to do so until the law was put in place.

Guess how many people did so the next day? None,

Look at the apostacy law this way;

Acts against the nation are considered treason aren't they? what is punishment for treason in 9ja?

The constitution of an Islamic state is based on Islam; If i live in the state, i abide by its laws;

If someone leaves Islam in an Islamic state for whatever reason, as long as he doesn't go around opening flaunting his belief/unbelief or trying to convert muslims. He is fine. Otherwise, It is treasonable.

He can live his life, he doesn't have to pray or fast if he doesn't want to..

Besides, the person is not just executed, he speaks to the scholars about his doubts and is provided evidences about the divinity of the Quran so as to convince him, (for three days) if that fails, he is threatened basically to shut him up from proselytizing disbelief in an Islamic state. If he relents, he is let go and can continue in his disbelief and live his normal life.

cloudstar: So, how do we explain verses in the Hadith that state otherwise. For example:

Bukhari, volume 9, #17

"Narrated Abdullah: Allah's Messenger said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed except in three cases: in Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (Apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

Bukhari, volume 9, #57

Narrated Ikrima, "Some atheists were brought to Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's messenger forbade it, saying, "Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire)." I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."

Bukhari, volume 9, #58

Narrated Abu Burda, "Abu Musa said.....Behold there was a fettered man beside Abu Musa. Muadh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Musa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Musa requested Muadh to sit down but Muadh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and his messenger," and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers .....

These verses confirm that when a muslim changes his religion, he should be killed. This is contrary to the OPs post. Can anyone shed some light on this

tbaba1234: Was the Quran distorted too? How do you decide what is distorted and what is accurate.. Is it not that the Quran confirms the truth.

Read the piece carefully..

I. The punishment is not just for changing your religion.

Ii. It is for making a public show of it.

No one will drag you out of your house if you refuse to pray. Just live with your disbelief without disturbing people.

The wisdom in this is simple.

Imagine there are five apostates who left islam discretely without making a show of it this year. Next year, there might just be five more etc .. There is no exponential rise.

If those five make a public show of this.. Next year, there will be 10 or 15 and it grows exponentially.

A perfect example is the growth of homosexuality in the west.

An Islamic state is there to protect the faith and interests of muslims and provide the best environment to practise faith.

The only arguments against this can only be emotional not rational.

tbaba1234: Was the Quran distorted too? How do you decide what is distorted and what is accurate.. Is it not that the Quran confirms the truth.

Read the piece carefully..

I. The punishment is not just for changing your religion.

Ii. It is for making a public show of it.

No one will drag you out of your house if you refuse to pray. Just live with your disbelief without disturbing people.

The wisdom in this is simple.

Imagine there are five apostates who left islam discretely without making a show of it this year. Next year, there might just be five more etc .. There is no exponential rise.

If those five make a public show of this.. Next year, there will be 10 or 15 and it grows exponentially.

A perfect example is the growth of homosexuality in the west.

An Islamic state is there to protect the faith and interests of muslims and provide the best environment to practise faith.

The only arguments against this can only be emotional not rational.

cloudstar:

Islamic teachings are not based on the Quran alone. Simple example:

1. Praying 5 times a day is not in the Quran but the hadith, yet every muslim including you obey this teaching
2. Going on the Hajj is another example and there are many other examples

So, it's not correct to say true muslims use the Quran alone to know it's teachings.

Rilwayne001:

Read the post very well, only the quran is the right source for islamic matters, we cant depend on the hadith bcourse it has been distorted...peace.

usermane:

Dear, what you will do for the sake of keeping this thread focused on it topic is to go and get your answers from here:
https://www.nairaland.com/1493271/ten-misconception-among-muslims

cloudstar:

Which of the Hadiths has been distorted?

Rilwayne001:

Any hadith that doesnt get it source from the Quran

Especially those hadith dat support what is absent in the Quran

tbaba1234:



However in an Islamic state, there are certain conditions where conversion is accompanied with acts that could be considered treasonable by the state. The punishment for treason is death.

The act of just conversion is not punishable in most cases, however if that conversion is accompanied by an attempt to discredit Islam or propagate another religion within the islamic state, It is considered treasonable.

The apostacy law came about during the time of the prophet;

In order to discredit Islam, some Jews in medina would accept islam in the day and leave by sunset; They continued to do so until the law was put in place.

Guess how many people did so the next day? None,

Look at the apostacy law this way;

Acts against the nation are considered treason aren't they? what is punishment for treason in 9ja?

The constitution of an Islamic state is based on Islam; If i live in the state, i abide by its laws;