thehijj: BISMILLAH IR-RAHMAN IR-RAHHIM

In defense of the Ahmediyyah
Not only do Shiates and Sunnis fight with Christians, Hindus and Jews and now with Buddhist as well while fighting with each other,
Sunnis and Shiates also attack other MUSLIMS too! Such as the Ahmadiyyas, Submitters and any other MUSLIMS who are not part of their Hadthie Orthodoxy.
I have read the Ahmadiyyas were busy building schools and hospitals and translating the Qur’an into local languages in East Africa (something the Sunnis forbid at one time), while the African-Sunnis were busy taking Africans into slavery for the Arabs. Ahmadiyyas were the first here in the USA to teach would be Black Americans Muslims the QUR’AN, while the Sunni-Arabs here were and still is selling pork and alcohol to Black Americans.
When something is blown up and people and their children are murdered by Islamic terrorist in the name of Islam,                                                                                                                                     
The Moderate Sunni and Shia Muslims are quick to Say;                                                                                       “Oh, the people who did that are not really Muslims”
And when Ahmadiyya and Submitter Muslims, Say “We too are victims of Islamic terrorism”       
The Moderate Sunni and Shia Muslims are quick to Say;                                                                              “Oh, those people who said that are not really Muslims”
Well then, are The Moderate Orthodox Muslims, really Islamic terrorist sympathizers

mujybite00: Wait til eternity....No man will ever descend from heaven....God will be choosing man from among them, to preach to man. If Jesus should descend as most people believe....From which continent will he starts killing PIGS as prophecy say?

These has nothing to do with reading 'MITITI'....It's about the wisdom and pure understanding from Allah.

Read more @ www.alislam.org [LOVE FOR ALL, HATRED FORM NONE]

Zhul-fiqar:


please can you explain to us this verse about Jesus (as):

"And indeed, Jesus will be [a sign for] knowledge of the Hour, so be not in doubt of it, and follow Me. This is a straight path."(Holy Quran 43:61)

mujybite00:

The word 'al-sa'ah' literally translated as 'the Hour' should be understood in the light of same expression used in [Quran 54:2]. There are revolutionary changes which were destined to be brought about by the advent of the Holy Prophet[s.a.w] are referred to as 'al-sa'ah'. The connotation of this term as applie to Jesus in the verse under study should be understood on the same lines. Hence 'the Hour' refers to the advent of Jesus in the latter days and the spiritual revolutionary attendant upon it.

So, our believe should not literally stand on the fact that someone will come down from heaven [Jesus [a.s]] in human body form to reform the Ummah of Holy Prophet. Rather, in line with the prophecy of the Holy Prophet [s.a.w] from time to time, Allah will be commissioning from among them [Muslims] who would be raised to regenerate and restore lost spiritual glory.

Now, for those that believe that NO other Prophet will come after the Holy Prophet [s.a.w], the question they need to
answer is, When Jesus [a.s] reappear in later days, what attribute are we going to give him? a Prophet? a Messanger? or just a man?

[Love for All, Hatred for None]

Niyi53: Radar5, we say Isa ibn Maryam (Jesus christ) is dead because the Holy Quran categorically mentioned it.

LagosShia:

nope!

the Quran does not say he "died" a natural earthly death.if you doubt,let us examine the verses.

Niyi53: Moreso, my claim that Jesus is dead is logical and inline with the laws of nature, but for you to assert that for over 2000 yrs, Jesus is still alive is quite illogical. Therefore i will want you to provide all The Quranic verses that supports your claim.

radar5: We should all know why death of prophet Issa is important to the Ahmadis.
First,without believing that prophet Issa died,how would Ghulam Ahmad claimed he was the Mahdi the Quran told us.
Second, because of the Ghulam ambition and his knowledge in western education and his access to books written by past Islamic sects.such as the Muttazilites,Kharajites,whose major works found root in Greek philosophy,he found accomplishes in British Government,who not only financed his project but also helped him established his satellite television to distribute his fallacies.
Their Mahdi died without the dreaded Dajjal,and yet life goes on.That is enough to put them on the right path.

Zhul-fiqar:

Let me make it plain to you that we are not disagreeing on what you understand by the word "as-sa'ah" which means "the hour" or "the time" or "the period".i just want to note that every verse in the Quran i have read that uses the word "the hour" refers to the judgement day or simple put "the hereafter" or the end of this world and order as we live in it.

Zhul-fiqar:

now the verse i have presented to you tells us that Jesus (a) would be a "sign" of the hour.how would he be a "sign"?you said it refers to Jesus's (a) advent in the latter days.that is all good with me and no disagreement at all.you agree that Jesu's (a) is going to come in the latter days.

Zhul-fiqar:

the verse stated explicitly the name of the person who will come in the latter days.that person is the same person who is the son of Mariam (a) in chapter 19 of the holy Quran known as Surat Mariam.the verse does not say "someone" would come.nor does it is from time to time someone will come to refresh or renew the religion of Islam or the ummah.

Zhul-fiqar:

the verse stated explicitly the name of the person who will come in the latter days.that person is the same person who is the son of Mariam (a) in chapter 19 of the holy Quran known as Surat Mariam.the verse does not say "someone" would come.nor does it is from time to time someone will come to refresh or renew the religion of Islam or the ummah.

Zhul-fiqar:

now the question of who is a mujaddid among Muslims is based solely on opinion.if you ask me in the last 100 years who is our mujaddid,i would say Ayatollah Ruhollah Khoemini.his revolution in Iran was an awakening moment for Muslims.

Zhul-fiqar:

all i am trying to say is that a mujaddid holds no divine station like prophethood,messengership or imamate.

Zhul-fiqar:

going back to the subject of the verse and the coming of Jesus (a),Jesus (a) is not a mujaddid.Jesus (a) is a messenger and prophet of God.he is a nabi (prophet) and also a rasul (bringer of divine revelation).Jesus (a) is far above a mujaddid.Imam Mahdi (ajtfs) who will also come along during the time of Jesus (a) is more than a mujaddid.Imam Mahdi (ajtfs) according to hadith accepted by both Sunni and Shia,would be the Imam that will lead Jesus (a) in prayer.this is significant because in the life time of Prophet Muhammad (s),it is forbidden for anyone to lead him in prayer.also when Prophet Muhammad (s) passed away no one led salat janaza for him because Muhammad (s) is the imam of every Muslim till Yamul Qiyama.no one can be his imam in anyway or form.he is the divine leader.we are told Jesus (a) will refuse to lead prayers and it would be Imam Mahdi (ajtfs) from the progeny of Prophet Muhammad (s) who will and would be the divinely appointed imam.

Zhul-fiqar:

also when Prophet Muhammad (s) passed away no one led salat janaza for him because Muhammad (s) is the imam of every Muslim till Yamul Qiyama.no one can be his imam in anyway or form.he is the divine leader.we are told Jesus (a) will refuse to lead prayers and it would be Imam Mahdi (ajtfs) from the progeny of Prophet Muhammad (s) who will and would be the divinely appointed imam.

Zhul-fiqar:

now you have to tell us who or what Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was.was he a mujaddid?a prophet?a messenger?a holy divinely appointed imam? a prophet is not a messenger.an imam is not a prophet/messenger.a mujaddid is not an imam/propher/messenger.so what was he?

Zhul-fiqar:

now you want us to believe that verse 43:61 specifically mentioning Jesus (a) would come to relate to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.that is not possible to accept or reason.you cannot use a verse mentioning someone's name specifically to give to another person with another name and who does not claim to be the "son of Mary".

mujybite00: As-salam'ww.
'Al-sa'ah' [the hour] does not only mean Judgement day or end of the world. Look at the context of the ongoing verses in quote. It only means "latter days" here [43:62], [54:2]. 'Al-sa'ah' also means the hour of destruction of enemy of Islam e.t.c see [7:183 - 189][see Q 54:47]. So, when you read Quran, dont only read the verse singly but the contents and the contexts should be read along other similar verses, for every verse of H.Q. butresses others.

The Holy Quran [the word of Allah (swt) ] and the Holy Prophet (saw) said it clearly, why should we disagree
while our sources of guidance is only Allah and His Messager (saw).

But the coming of Jesus (as) refered to by Allah does not mean physical descent of the son of Mary (as) but his spiritual descent, just as the Bible talked about the descent of Elijah [Anabiy Idris (as)] which Jesus Christ (as) clarified that had indeed descended but people did not beleive him - It was John the Baptist [Anabiyy Yahya (as)] who descended in Elijah's spirit - because "nobody goes to heaven except he who come from heaven" said Jesus(a.s).

I have to remind you here that you also believe in the ascenssion of Prophet Idris [as] as you beleive in ascenssion of Jesus Christ [as] like Jews and Christains but you only quote:

"...And we raised him to a lofty station." [Q 19:57] to prove that he was also raised to heaven ealier. But you have not told us when he will descend or will he enter paradise like that [i.e. with this physical body]? or will he not be raised on the day of judgement?

Earlier scriptures also refer to the coming of Holy Prophet as the coming of the Lord; He would be called Emmanuel (that is God is with us). But nobody called or named the Holy Prophet [saw] Emmanuel until Allah revealed [Quran 9:40]. Remember, the Holy Quran has clarifeid that Jesus son of Mary [on whom be peace] has died like every mortal "Jesus son of Mary has died like every mortal". If you dont believe it, meet me again to prove his death with about 121 verses from Holy Quran.

Now the question is that, if Jesus [as] has died, which sign is he going to be in the latter days? And whose [Nuzul] did Holy Prophet [saw] refered to?

1. - Know that the verse under quote [43:62] never mention that he would descend nor does any verse of Holy Quran mentions his Nuzul.

2. - The Holy Prophet [saw] used the word [Nazala or Nuzuul] the way Allah used it in several places in the Holy Quran [e.g. Q26:193-195, 17:94; 15:90]. Infact, the word [Nuzuul] is used in the Holy Quran in the follwing connotations
a. Cloth
b. Holy Prophet [saw]
c. Quran
d. Iron
e. Books e.t.c.

Read Suratul-Maryam, why Allah [swt] first relates the story of Yahya [as] before that of Jesus [as] is because they were both signs out of wonders of Allah and that in the latter days people would turn to the worship of the latter, whereas he enjoins no status in respect of birth and death other than that of Yahya [as]. Both of them have verses of same origin and root value that they were mortal, born and dead like every other human being:

"And peace was on him the day he was born, and the day he died, and peace there will be on him the day he will be raised up to life again"...Quran 19:16.

"And peace was on me the day I was born and peace there will be on me the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised up to life again [resurrected]" Q 19:34.

Note that the continous tense [Fi'lu mudhorii'] is used for both in case of death. That is [yamuutu] and [amuutu]. If you don't undertsand the language of the Holy Quran, you will miscontrue this also for Yahya being alive and that, one day he will also die in future, which means til Quran seizes to exist. And no mention of the 3rd coming of Elijah or 2nd coming [rather descent] of Yahya [as] anywhere.

It means that if Jesus has died, he is not the one to come in the aforementioned verse in comment. And this is why the Holy Quran has not spoken of his physical descent anywhere, rather Allah(the All-Wise) uses the word "sign".

Mujaddid is not a national, regional or political office. And it is for Ummah of Holy Propeht [saw] in general not particular nation. For if there are diferent Mujaddid as you said, Ummah would never be reformed nor the perfected religion - which has been relinquished to vermiform be reformed. Instead, more problem would be created. Alhadullilah, you quoted Ayatollah Khoemini and Muhammad Baqir AlSadr and Sayeed Hassan Nasrallah. Do they have the same ideology and do they fight for common cause - i.e reformation of Ummah? The answer is NO!

Ayatollah Khoemini is busy with political struglling rather than reforming Ummah around the world, ditto for others quoted and so on.

And moreover, Ayatollah never claimed to be a Mujaddid nor the Shuyukh [Saint] of this era approved him as Ghulam Ahmad [as] is approved even by eminent opponents.

Mujaddid is not a matter of opinion, it should be understood in the context of the Hadith and the way the Holy Prophet [saw] had put it. From the time of Umar bn Abd-Azeez [ru] till the time of Shah Waliullah Al-Delawi [ru], no one differed about the Mujaddid but when the last Mujadid - whose advent is also Mahdi and Masih Mau'd as mentioned in authentic Ahadith - Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed, people like you raised clamous. [Read Q 3:20 and 98:5].

I hope you believe that Islam had started for long with Propeht Adam [as]. All the Prophets that followed him were Mujaddideen until the advent of Holy Prophet [saw] - Khatam-un-Nabiyy - when Allah perfected and completed the everlong evolutionary Islam. The Prophets of Isreal after Moses [as] were only Mujaddideen for Moses law. [Q 5 vs 45]. If you don't understand the concept and meaninig of Mujaddid - I can explain it to you thereafter or we can both shed more light on its meaning.

Back to the topic en focal, the Hadith say:

"Verily Allah, the Powerful, Mighty will be raising for this community [Ummah]....."

If you think someone raised by Allah [swt] Himself hold no divine station, then you need not believe in any Prophet because the same word [Ba'atha] used by Holy Prophet [saw] is used by Allah as regarding the Prophets [e.g. Q62 :3 e.t.c]. And nobody can aspire for the office of Mujaddid and attain it as the office of Prophet is not also aspired for and attained.

"That is Allah's grace; He bestows it on whom He pleases; and Allah is the Master of immense grace."[Q 62:5].

The Ahadith about who lead prayer Mahdi or Jesus, which found its way into authentic hadith has been proved by Scholar of hadith to be faulty. See Ibn Taimiyal book of Authenticity of Hadith e.t.c. Read the hadith and follow chain of narrators together with the tone and language, you will once discard the hadith. The hadith is Maudu'uh.

You are completely unaware of Islamic History. Read Ibn Hisham Tahrik-l-Islam; Haykal; Ibn Mssu'd Hikayat Bidayatul Islam mina-l-Makkatu ila-l-Madina. Even the Siha sitta [six authentic hadith] have it that Hadrat Abu Bakr(ra) led the funeral prayer, though he was at first declined to do so but having became the Khalifah, he led the prayer. Also, while HP [saw] was alive, he had ordered Abu Bakr to lead people in prayer while he himself joined later...

Hadrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad [as] was the last Mujaddid of later days [the 14th century mujaddid], a prophet and Messenger of God [Allah] under the mantle of Holy Prophet [saw] and He is the Imam Mahdi [as]. Remember the hadith from Bukhari:

"How will your condition be, when Jesus son of Mary will be raised from among you and he will be your Imam"
"There will be no Mahdi other than Jesus son of Mary"...Ibn Majah

These refers to one person, holding different offices. Note: The Holy Prophet was first called Nabi, then Rasul, then Shaahid, then Khatama-n-Nabiy etc. These are different titles of one person.

Verse 61 of Chapter 43 refers to Ghulam Ahmad [as]. And denying it is denying the Holy Prophet [saw]. If you are in doubt do Istekhara over it with open mind or recite Suratul Yasin with 2 rakats for seven days before going to bed, Insha Allah, you will find Allah's guidance over this.

Like I said earlier, coming of any Prophet is always attributed to the past Prophet because of the similarity in thier dispensation, character and status. The Holy Prophet [saw] has been called Ahmad by Jesus in the HOLY QURAN[OR BIBLE], but today's Bible had changed it to Paraclet e.t.c. The Prophet Sulaiman [Solomon] called him Muhammad, today's Book of Jews [old testament] change it to Beautiful one. All these do not change the Holy Prophet [saw]. For seeker after truth from the People of Book and such a one on studying the Message of Holy Prophet [saw] will quickly accept him. Study the message of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad [as] with open mind today.

We beleive in Khatamun-Nabiyeen as the sealof Prophets [Read our Quran and Literatures even on internet]. The difference is that, you confined yourself to one meaning as against several meaning given by Holy Quran and Holy Prophet [saw]:

1. The Holy Prophet mosque in Madinah was called by him, "the last mosque" [are you sure there has not been thousands of mosques built after it?]

2.Hassan bn Thabit was called Khatam-us-Shua'rah e.t.c.

Your belief bellies the true sense of Khatamun Nabiyyen, if you beleive Jesus - Rasul to Israel - would come AFTER Holy Prophet [saw]....[So who are we to claim to be the last accoding to your believe?]. It means, God forid, Jesus possesses higher spiritual power than does the Holy prophet.

However, Hadrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad(as) claimed he was the son of Mary expected by both the Christians and Muslims alike.

It's nice to have you on-board.

Jazakmullahu Khairan.

NOTE: Watch live streaming of MTA International [24/7] on web and mobile devices through www.alislam.org/mta

[Love For All, Hatred For None]

badr Bashir: salaamu alaykum. I have read your discussion carefully and found that the two discussants are well aware of what each of you is saying but refused to find the missing link. Both of you are to some extent knowledgeable but stuck to protecting ideas. Islam is a Universal religion, it does not require the vigour or intelligence of any individual to build a new image. The Prophet was raised without what you will call formal training, that God may proof to the world that He grants knowledge and understanding. The Promised Messiah was promised to the world by Allah through Mohammed, for purpose the Muslim world today have lost touch with and have continued to chase shadows. Let me ask here, has Allah let the Muslims to be oppressed and humiliated as you find in Israel and Afghanistan? or has Allah forsaken us so much that what is left for Muslims is killing one another to seek His pleasure? I think it is high time we thought deeply about all these if it really bothers us. The Mahdi and the Messiah has come, it is your choice to choose the path of guidance or that of damnation, after-all Abu Jahl, Abu Lahb had their rewards!

mujybite00: As-salam'ww.

Hadrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad [as] was the last Mujaddid of later days [the 14th century mujaddid], a prophet and Messenger of God [Allah] under the mantle of Holy Prophet [saw] and He is the Imam Mahdi [as]. Remember the hadith from Bukhari:

"How will your condition be, when Jesus son of Mary will be raised from among you and he will be your Imam"
"There will be no Mahdi other than Jesus son of Mary"...Ibn Majah

radar5: We should all know why death of prophet Issa is important to the Ahmadis.
First,without believing that prophet Issa died,how would Ghulam Ahmad claimed he was the Mahdi the Quran told us.
Second, because of the Ghulam ambition and his knowledge in western education and his access to books written by past Islamic sects.such as the Muttazilites,Kharajites,whose major works found root in Greek philosophy,he found accomplishes in British Government,who not only financed his project but also helped him established his satellite television to distribute his fallacies.
Their Mahdi died without the dreaded Dajjal,and yet life goes on.That is enough to put them on the right path.

in the Quran,we are told "Jesus would be a sign of the hour".i asked how would Jesus (as) be a "sign of the hour"? you said his "spiritual return" and not his physical decent as Muslims believe with the exception of Ahmadiyyah.now who told you "sign of the hour" refers to Jesus's (as) "spiritual return" and not his physical decent? is there any prophet who told you that?

ofcourse as an ahmadiyyah you want to believe that a pakistani man was the "spiritual return" of Jesus (as) and therefore he represents the "sign of the hour" that refers to Jesus (as).

can you tell us which prophet described Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as the "spiritual return" of Jesus (as)? who said that and why should we believe that?

you ahmadiyyah are only looking for loopholes to insert your misguidance and misinterpretations.where did you bring the idea that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (and not me or even you) is the "spiritual return" of Jesus (as)? anyone can convinient claim that.as for the understanding that "Jesus would be a sign of the hour",Muslims believe Jesus's (as) return would be signaling the nearness to the end of this our world.

Another question for you is if we are to take Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as the "spiritual return" of Jesus (as) then how was Mirza Ghulam Ahmad "a sign of the hour"? how was he a "sign" and of which "hour"?

does the Quran say Prophet Idris (as) and not Jesus (as) would be "a sign of the hour"? no! the Quran does not say that.so if Prophet Idris (as) alongside Prophet Elias and Prophet Khidr (as) are all to return according to Shia or Sunni belief is irrelevant here.it is irrelevant because none of those are described as "sign of the hour" but Jesus (as) is.so lets discuss Jesus (as).

besides, the Quran states every soul shall taste death.so whether or not they are taken up,they must die.

according to Christians "emmanuel" refers to Jesus (as) and no Muslims except you have claimed it refers to Prophet Muhammad (sa).well again how do you know it does refer to me?

brother LagosShia had explained earlier on that Jesus (as) did not die a physical death.the word use to describe Jesus (as) during when he was to be raised up into the heavens is "mutawaffika". And that word is also used in the holy Quran to refer to humans in a state of sleep.it does not mean physical death.in fact the Quran says about Jesus (as) that he was neither killed nor crucified.

another point you as an ahmadiyyah need to answer is this:if God caused Jesus (as) to "die" (remember the word used is "mutawaffika" ),and then God as stated in the Quran said He would raise Jesus (as) to Himself,then how come ahmadiyyah have a grave for Jesus (as) in Kashmir? isn't that ridiculous?

just tell us the following:

1.) who told you Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is the "spiritual Jesus"?

2.) how was Mirza Ghulam Ahmad a "sign of the hour"?

3.) and of which "hour" was he a "sign"?

my friend you're confusing yourself.Yahya Ibn Zakariah (as) died a natural death.but Jesus (as) did not.you have no case here to make by using the story of Prophet Yahya (as).i could also say that just as Yahyah (as) died Jesus (as) still must return to taste death.

i can also tell you that it is through the blessing of Ayatollah Khomeini's revolution that many of us in africa came to know about the Ahlul-Bayt (as) and became Shia Muslims leaving Sunni islam. [/quote

17. Sorry my brother. But you still need to keep stepping forward in your search for truth. Continue to be a truth seeker, venture into Ahmadiyya with open mind and see the difference!!!

____________

[quote] and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad just like the founder of wahhabism,Ibn Abdul Wahab were british colonial agents sowing discord and teaching innovative ideas contradicting Islamic teachings.

Ayatollah Khomeini wrote many books and practicalized Islam.in Iran women dont use to wear hijab,but after his revolution even if the queen of england visits,she must cover her head.Islam became the soul of iranian society.and you call that political struggle?

well,just in case you as an ahmadiyyah is ignorant of islam,i should teach you that ISLAM is a complete way of life that includes both the spiritual and physical.Islam also has its spiritual aspect

you can deceive yourself with that.a mujaddid is someone whose presence is felt and not a position to be claimed as such.

if he is Masih and Mahdi,he doesn't need to claim to be a mujaddid.mujaddid's presence is felt and not a title given.it is the function that is felt.mujaddid (reformer) is a function and not a title like prophet and messiah and messenger.

show me one prophet in the Quran who claimed to be mujaddid or Allah (jj) called mujaddid.not one!that is because it is a function and not a title or divinely appointed station like prophethood.

being a mujaddid is not "ba'tha" or "divine appointment".it is by the actions of a person.if my actions benefit islam and the muslim the most,i can be seen as a mujaddid.

i do not intend to go into much details.you are diverting.this entire discussion and the focus is on who the liar called Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is.whether a hadith is faulty or authentic has little implication [quote]

25. I love you brother and care for you. Do not ruin yourself be calling Allah's Messenger a liar!

______________

[quote] for you information the hadith that Jesus (as) would pray behind the Mahdi (aj) is authentic beyond doubt.

you are silly.I am Shia and not Sunni.i do not hold in high esteem your "sihah sitta".

abu bakr led no prayer and the Prophet (s) did not order him to.this is evident through comparing the contradictory hadiths in Sunni books.also,abu bakr was recruited by the Prophet (s) to join the army of Usama Ibn Zaid (ra).so how could he have being in medina to lead prayers?

the mahdi that will come from the descendants of Sayyida Fatima (as) whose name shall be Muhammad also.

do not quote inconsequential hadiths fabricated by the banu umayya to conceal the status of the Ahlul-Bayt (as) and the mahdi who shall come from them.

silly!

you can do your Ghulam a favor by answering those 3 questions i earlier asked you.

if you read in the Quran,Muhammad (sa) is the seal of prophets,then how do you attribute prophethood to your Ghulam?

LagosShia:

this is how the hadith appears in Bukhari with its correct translation:

Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English, v4, Tradition #658

"how would your condition be when the son of Mary (as) descend upon you and your Imam (i.e. Imam Mahdi) is from you (i.e. the ummah of Muhammad)?"

mujybite00:

Salam'w.

Bro. ShiaLagos Thanks for your cute observation about the Hadith of descent of son of Mary. May Allah forgive, for I had quoted the hadith verbatim and never put a quote on it to indicate that, that is how it is presented in any hadith nor quote any source of it. I had done this because there are several Ahadith about the subject and to present all of them in quotation would defile this little treatise. That was why I had summed the hadith verbatim without any quote.

Albeit, as you have helped quote the hadith, you need absolute correction for you do not know how to quote hadith. You wrote Bukhari no...., which volume of which version in which publication? You never mentioned this, learn how to correct if at all need be.

However, I am re-quoting the particular hadith you were trying to correct wrongly:

"Kaefa antum idhaa nazala fiikumu bnu maryama wa imaamukum minkum"
meaning
"How would it be with you when the son of Mary will descend among you and you will have a leader raised from among you"

[Bukhari; Kitabul-Anbiya, Babu Nuzul Isa bin Maryam]

You wrote
Descend upon you

Correction: Descend among you from nazala fiikum not nazala 'alaekum

You can go back to my previous trends about the usage of nuzuul in Quran and Hadith. Waimaamukum minkum, [and your Imam from among you refers to son of Mary [Jesus] being the Imam of Ummah of Holy Prophet[saw]

I will still encourage you to visit our website, www.alislam.org and watch Ahmadiyya 24/7 TV station on internet via www.mta.tv or www.alislam.org/mta

Ramadan Mubarak!!!

Ma Salam.

[LOVE FOR ALL, HATRED FOR NONE]

LagosShia:
there is no need for the long post.it is a very simple matter.can't you observe that your ahmadiyyah sect is finding ways to see loopholes and insert interpretation or rather misinterpretation?

"nazala fiikumu"=descend upon you.if you say "descend among you".there is no problem.the keyword is "descend".how does one descend? from his mother's womb? i dont think so.

the first part says "descend among you" and the other part speaks of an Imam among ourselves.this hadith is talking about two different men.and this is made even clearer when other hadiths about the descent of Jesus (as) and Imam Mahdi (ajtfs) are taking into persepctive.

mujybite00: Bro. LagosShia, As-salam alaekum.




For your correction, we are not sect rather the community i.e. the Jamaah of Holy Prophet[saw]
And we do not misinterpret [naudhubillah] – we seek Allah’s protection – and we can never mis-interpret anything sacred intead, we follow the interpretation of Allah Almighty[swt] and that of Holy Prophet[saw] and his companions[ra].



One can descend in different ways. It depends on the connotation of the usage. For example, the Arabs did say that “Nazala-l-Jundu ‘ala kadha makaan” i.e The army [host] has descended in such a place or in so so place.

However, Allah [swt] uses nazala in different connotations in the Holy Quran, as was the Holy Prophet[saw] in the Ahadith. Among few examples are:

[a] About Food: “We caused Manna and Salwa to descend upon you….” [Q2 vs 58]
[b]About Wealth or Table Food: “O Allah, our Lord, cause to descend on us a table from heaven spread with food that it may be to us a festival…..” [Q5 vs 115]
[c] About Cloth [Garment]: “O Children of Adam, We have indeed cause to descend on you raiment [garment] to cover your unclothedness and to be a means of adornment…” [Q7 vs 27]
[d] About Iron: “…We caused to descend, iron, wherein is material for violent warfare and diverse uses for mankind…” [Q57 vs 26]
[e] About Holy Prophet[saw]: “…Allah has indeed, cause to descend to you a Reminder – A Messenger, who recites unto you the clear signs of Allah… [Q65 vs 11 – 12]
[f] About Holy Quran: “Surely, We cause it to descend during the Night of Decree” [Q97 vs 2]

Are all these loopholes?


Though you may want to give into different translations used by different translators in these verses but the fact and the root [Origin] remains Nazala- meaning descend as you think.

These are few out of several verses where the word is used by Allah[swt] and the Holy Prophet[saw] has used it in different places – none of it meaning falling or descending from the heaven [sic. Cloud].

If Nuzul in connotations of Holy Quran and Holy Prophet[saw]does not mean they descend physically from heaven, how would your son of Mary – who has never ascend to heaven – descend therefrom?

Surprisingly enough, Arabs also use Nazala [descend] for someone standing in someone else’s place. To be precise, every Messengers or anything from Allah is usually described as nuzuul in the word nazala to denotes that Allah is the Most High, while men is most lowliest*, so all that come from Him to men can be described as nazala – descend.

As regards the descent of son of Mary, the Holy Prophet[saw] has clarified it in the hadith complied by Imam Muhammad Ismail Al-Bukhara, by describing Jesus[as] son of Mary, whom he saw during his ascension [Mi’raj] differently from the son of Mary[as] to come in the latter days. Read the Hadith and compare their physique as well. Two different persons are described. Or are they the same?

This tells you that the Holy Prophet[saw] was telling us about someone else but resembling Jesus Son of Mary in spirit and dispensation of Prophethood. And someone that would serve as the end of dispensation of Holy Prophet[saw] – the end the world – just as the Jesus son of Mary[as] served as the end of dispensation of Moses. Do not forget that the Holy Quran as well as former scriptures described Holy Prophet[saw] as Messenger resembling Moses[as].

However, you may not want to accept this truth while still nursing the notion that Isa, son of Mary ascended to heaven. Know that ascension of Jesus is purely Christian faith and doctrine, which found its way into the Ahadith during Muawiyyah dispensation. If you know science of Hadith [‘Uluum-ul-Ahadith] very well, you would quickly decodes their error. For example, if you read Tafseer Ibn Kathir, on the verses 158 – 159 or Suratul Nisa; he had quoted Ibn Abbas and other narrators different view about the event of the cross.

The quotation that sends melancholy to your heart instead of satisfaction. You’d be left in dilemma as to which one of the Ahadith is to be believed and all of them have been regarded as Sahih on the basis of Kunyah, whereas they narrate contradictory story that is totally irrational and unholy.

The Holy Prophet has explicitly declared that Jesus[as] has died like every other Prophet[as] and the Holy Prophet[saw] believed this and said in several places that Jesus has died like all others. The Companions believed this as well and nobody nursed the notion of unreal Jesus living in the right hand of God until the time of Muawiyyah, when Christians in Syria fabricated thousands of Ahadith to establish their faith in Muslims.



This is why I had told you that the Hadith:

“kaefa antum idhaa nazala fiikum bnu maryama, wa imaamukum minkum” [/i]means “how would your condition be when son of Mary is raised among you and [he be] your Imam from among yourself”

You will understand the Hadith better when you read it together with the Hadith in Ibn Majah or Mustadrak-al-Hakim, which is collected by Muhammad bn Khalid Jundi, who collected it from Aban bn Salih, on the authority of Hassan bn Basri, on the authority of Anas bn Malik, who heard the Holy Prophet[saw] saying “[i]Laa Mahdi illa ‘Isa” i.e. There is no Mahdi other than Jesus.

That is the Imam Mahdi awaited is the same son of Mary to come only clothed in two garments [mantle] of Prophethood. Is it not great that the leader [Imam] of the Muslims is raised from among them, who is also to do the work of Messiah on both the Christians and the Jews. In fact to bring the whole world under the banner of Holy Prophet[saw] PEACEFULLY without violence – BLOODSHED- kamaa dakhaltumuhu awwal marrah… “Just as you had entered it in the first instance…”

Bringing about the victory of Islam over all other religions just as the Holy Prophet[saw] had demonstrated on the Day of Victory over Mecca. Insha Allah, the day is very nigh. Join the forces of Prophet Muhammad [saw], so that we can togetherly be decorated by Allah Almighty. And stop waiting for Mahdi that would never come.

Rise and accept him, who is sent by Allah today and remain blessed.

Jazakallahu khairan………Ramadan Mubarak…………and Eid Mubarak [in advance].

I will still encourage you to view live streaming of MTA TV on your PC, Mobile Phones via www.alislam.org/mta
[Watchout for programmes like Faith Matters, Rah-e-Huda, Beacon of Truth, True Talk among others in various international language of your choice]

Ma Salam.

[Love for All, Hatred for None]