.

italo:

Who is the first and the last?

You did not leave any Scriptural Source/verse, So I did a little digging-guess where I found it, ISAIAH 44:6-Now who was mentioned there was YHWH as the jews and I believe is not referring to Jesus.

As for Jesus being the first, well, Colossians 1:15- "he is the image of the invincible God, the firstborn over(of) all creation".
Jesus said in Revelation 3:14 that he is "....the beginning of the creation of God",

Who is more better to tell me who he is that the man Jesus himself, I can't argue with him, after all Paul wrote, "....the head of woman is man and the head of christ is God.- 1 Corinthians 11:3, If every woman accepts man to be their head base on this scripture why would I expect Jesus Christ from doing the same?

adsonstone:



was it not a question you asked?
Have you not answered your question?

Or do u still want an answer?

am convinced that most penticostals xpecially on nairaland are not asking questions to learn but to ridicle d church.

lacum: am convinced that most penticostals xpecially on nairaland are not asking questions to learn but to ridicle d church.

smh for dem

woky: the same bible that was writn by fallible people, (as u claim) hw do you knw that the bible is right??,

dont you think that they might make mistake when writting the bible since they ar fallible?

Come, its like you dont look face befor coming up with this your useless line with me, come on! Run along now!

Infact go play in the sand.

If you dont have anything to say, dont repeat such to me. Nonsense! Smh.

Is that how you obey Jesus command to go and make disciples of people ? By telling them that the bible should not be trusted ?

Better dont post nonsens here again.

Where is the (first) original copy of the bible sef? Or better, where are the scrolls from which the bible was compiled? Anybody have the answer? It will be nice to see that copy so that we can be 100% sure that what we have now does not contain lies inserted by whoever had the original copy

truthislight:

Come, its like you dont look face befor coming up with this your useless line with me, come on! Run along now!

Infact go play in the sand.

If you dont have anything to say, dont repeat such to me. Nonsense! Smh.

Is that how you obey Jesus command to go and make disciples of people ? By telling them that the bible should not be trusted ?

Better dont post nonsens here again.

go tell sule dat one


mango!


I jst dnt knw why u ar hurt



u neva see anytin

RikoduoSennin: You did not leave any Scriptural Source/verse, So I did a little digging-guess where I found it, ISAIAH 44:6-Now who was mentioned there was YHWH as the jews and I believe is not referring to Jesus.

As for Jesus being the first, well, Colossians 1:15- "he is the image of the invincible God, the firstborn over(of) all creation".
Jesus said in Revelation 3:14 that he is "....the beginning of the creation of God",

Who is more better to tell me who he is that the man Jesus himself, I can't argue with him, after all Paul wrote, "....the head of woman is man and the head of christ is God.- 1 Corinthians 11:3, If every woman accepts man to be their head base on this scripture why would I expect Jesus Christ from doing the same?

Dear friend. Good brother.

Read the bold again three times.

After you have read it three times...I ask you to read:

Rev 1:17: And when I had seen him (Jesus), I fell at his feet as dead. And he (Jesus) laid his right hand upon me, saying: Fear not. I am the First and the Last,

*harden not your heart*

adsonstone:

To teach what exactly?

Things Christ did not teach?

Yes. And to continue to clarify and uphold the things Christ taught.

Christ made it clear he didn't teach everything.

adsonstone:
His law forbids them, so, they are prohibited.

This is actually funny. You really believe God forbids all images.

Let us read Exodus 20:4 again to see how outrageous this is.

"Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing,
nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth."

Going by the same reasoning approach you applied to the beginning of the verse, surely you also believe that making/keeping anything with the likeness of anything in heaven, or on earth or in water (That includes pictures, sculptures, drawings, graphic designs of all kinds).

Do you see that you are wrong...or do you also believe that all these are sins too?

.

adsonstone:
lets clarify something then we move on.

Are you suggesting that when humans do what God forbids in His law and God is silent about it, then the action becomes right, justified and not prohibited?

God is never silent about an abomination.

adsonstone: adsonstone has no such commandment of His own....but for God?
Here..

1. You shall not have other gods besides me.
2. You shall not make any graven image for yourself.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honour your father and your mother
6. You shall not kill
7. You shall not commit adultery
8. You shall not steal
9. You shall not bear false witness
10.You shall not covet anything that belong to your neighbour.

When and where did God appoint you alone as his spokesman?

Sal C: Why tell him that? Isn't he thesame person who said God used people infallibly? Perhaps adsonstone is one of those still being used infallibly today, Except he's going to tell us when God stopped using people infallibly.

sorry for exposing your oga's method.

truthislight:

If his pope can claim whatever he wants and he did not care to ask for verification from the scriptures, who gave him the right to question another person ?

He will do well to come out and give evidence for the doctrine of infallibility.

he cant defend it, if not he could have replied me by now.

woky: Genesis 3:15 that king James and his hired translators changed to their own test

Read Rev 12, the vases in chapter 12 confirm Gen 3:15

ok. how should gen. 3:15 read and do you have a prove from hebrew?

How did Rev. 12 support that the woman will crush the serpent?

Someone says all the scripture writers were fallible, yet he keeps asking us to defend Catholic doctrine with the fallible scriptures.

The way anti-Catholics reason!

Someone says that he is fallible...then he categorically states that "no man is infallible." How can he be sure of this since he is fallible?

The way anti-Catholics reason!

italo:
Yes.

This is a big lie.

That is directly contrary to what Christ commanded in that passage.
What a twist!

Matthew 28:20

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you "...

Thats Jesus Himself.
I don't know why you delibrately Changed His message to suit the RCC's objective-- teaching what Christ did not teach e.g submission to the pope to be saved contrary to 'Become born again' to see the kingdom of God.

italo:
Christ made it clear he didn't teach everything.

Yes, Christ also made it clear that the Holy Spirit will guide 'all Christians' into all truth.....teaching them thing He hasn't taught them.

.....and the apostles are not exempted from the Holy Spirit's guidance.

italo: This is actually funny. You really believe God forbids all images.

Let us read Exodus 20:4 again to see how outrageous this is.

"Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing,
nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth."

Going by the same reasoning approach you applied to the beginning of the verse, surely you also believe that making/keeping anything with the likeness of anything in heaven, or on earth or in water (That includes pictures, sculptures, drawings, graphic designs of all kinds).

Do you see that you are wrong...or do you also believe that all these are sins too?

That's totally absurd.....infact, in your mind, replace all your photographs/all drawings/artwork you've ever seen with graven images.....thats how absurd it is.

By the way, Syncan typed a reply which is on page 13 (infact, the last comment on that page) which I wanna believe thats your position too and you totally agree with that. (I would have copied it in a quote here but for phone ish)


now, back to topic.
To understand what God meant in that passage (if that is too ambigous) we'll consider other passage that speaks of such and see what God is against.

Leviticus 26:1 which I stated earlier

Deuteronomy 4:16-18

'16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and you make you a graven image of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
17. The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
18. The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:

It is evident from those passages that God is against making all forms of Graven Images in the likeness of anything at all.

italo:
God is never silent about an abomination.

Really?
Well,
show that you have agreed with syncan then we can talk about the rest.

italo:
When and where did God appoint you alone as his spokesman?

did you not read that in His law?

Or when did I become the author of the book that states all those?

adsonstone:

That's totally absurd.....infact, in your mind, replace all your photographs/all drawings/artwork you've ever seen with graven images.....thats how absurd it is.

By the way, Syncan typed a reply which is on page 13 (infact, the last comment on that page) which I wanna believe thats your position too and you totally agree with that. (I would have copied it in a quote here but for phone ish)


now, back to topic.
To understand what God meant in that passage (if that is too ambigous) we'll consider other passage that speaks of such and see what God is against.

Leviticus 26:1 which I stated earlier

Deuteronomy 4:16-18

'16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and you make you a graven image of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
17. The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
18. The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:

It is evident from those passages that God is against making all forms of Graven Images in the likeness of anything at all.

When dealing with the first part of Ex 20:4, you disregarded all the passages that shows that what God is against is not "making of images" but "worshipping of images." You even disregarded v2, v3 and v5 which proves my point.

You just wanted to deal with that part in isolation.

Now that I apply that flawed approach to the second part of the verse, you suddenly remember other passages.

Which approach do you want us to use?

Should we deal with the verse in isolation or not?

italo:

Dear friend. Good brother.

Read the bold again three times.

After you have read it three times...I ask you to read:

Rev 1:17: And when I had seen him (Jesus), I fell at his feet as dead. And he (Jesus) laid his right hand upon me, saying: Fear not. I am the First and the Last,

*harden not your heart*

Harden my heart? You are misunderstanding me, I am a practical man, and I believe that the bible is God's word-absolute truth.

@topic, thanks for that source Rev 1:17. With that in mind, Is the bible contradicting itself or Was Jesus then lying in the following Scriptures; John 14:28, John 20:17, 1 cor 11:3, col 1:15, Rev 3:12,14,etc or should I ignore the fact that no one prayed directly to Jesus in the bible, Jesus repeatedly said he was sent by the Father (indicating the superiority of the Father), Jesus was tempted by satan (James 1:13 says otherwise about God), Satan called Jesus son of God-was not even afraid of him, offered him the kindom of the World (I doesn't make Sense to tempt YHWH with that), Jesus did not rebuke Satan-Look closely at his reply-he was referring to someone higher who was able to rebuke satan(Matt 4:4-, Jesus never claimed what he spoke was his own, etc.

All bible references too shows Jesus is a seperate being from the Father (through vision he was seen standing or sitting at the right hand of YHWH). How are they one-are they fused together physically? Are they Clone with one mind and thought through a mental link? How is a father and Son equal? (Why are they called such to begin with?) If the Holy spirit is one person- how can he possess thousands of people at a time? Why did the Holy spirit possess Jesus Christ?

Questions like this and they bible based answers makes the trinity doctrine FALSE, The early Christians in the bible did not categorically use or believe in it (they did not mention it).

In the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy spirit does not mean trinity just like in the Name of paul, and Peter, and Jude does not mean they are one person. How really is a husband and wife one?- since they are two different beings.

adsonstone:

Really?
Well,
show that you have agreed with syncan then we can talk about the rest.

Your mouth dey sharp as you dey tell me to show that I agree with Syncan. When I asked you if you agreed with JMAN in the other thread, you suddenly went from very vocal to silent.

Yes, I agree with Syncan.

JMAN, Truthislight and all the other Protestants I have ever met say you are fallible. Do you agree with them?

JMAN and Truthislight say that Jesus is not God, but Archangel Michael. Do you agree with them?

adsonstone: did you not read that in His law?

Or when did I become the author of the book that states all those?

Can you show me where God states the 10 commandments exactly as you stated them?

Since you imply the other one is Catholic version while the one you stated is God's version.

RikoduoSennin:

Harden my heart? You are misunderstanding me, I am a practical man, and I believe that the bible is God's word-absolute truth.

@topic, thanks for that source Rev 1:17. With that in mind, Is the bible contradicting itself or Was Jesus then lying in the following Scriptures; John 14:28, John 20:17, 1 cor 11:3, col 1:15, Rev 3:12,14,etc or should I ignore the fact that no one prayed directly to Jesus in the bible, Jesus repeatedly said he was sent by the Father (indicating the superiority of the Father), Jesus was tempted by satan (James 1:13 says otherwise about God), Satan called Jesus son of God-was not even afraid of him, offered him the kindom of the World (I doesn't make Sense to tempt YHWH with that), Jesus did not rebuke Satan-Look closely at his reply-he was referring to someone higher who was able to rebuke satan(Matt 4:4-, Jesus never claimed what he spoke was his own, etc.

All bible references too shows Jesus is a seperate being from the Father (through vision he was seen standing or sitting at the right hand of YHWH). How are they one-are they fused together physically? Are they Clone with one mind and thought through a mental link? How is a father and Son equal? (Why are they called such to begin with?) If the Holy spirit is one person- how can he possess thousands of people at a time? Why did the Holy spirit possess Jesus Christ?

Questions like this and they bible based answers makes the trinity doctrine FALSE, The early Christians in the bible did not categorically use or believe in it (they did not mention it).

In the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy spirit does not mean trinity just like in the Name of paul, and Peter, and Jude does not mean they are one person. How really is a husband and wife one?- since they are two different beings.

I dont like it when people operate this way.

One question is answered. You have neither accepted nor refuted the answer given...but you've gone on to raise 1000 more issues.

Experience has taught me that only dishonest people act this way.

First things first: do you agree that Jesus is the first and the last?

italo: Someone says all the scripture writers were fallible, yet he keeps asking us to defend Catholic doctrine with the fallible scriptures.

The way anti-Catholics reason!

this post ^^ fit vex somepepole here oo


I dnt knw why some of them ar hurt.. Truth is bitter anyway..

italo:

I dont like it when people operate this way.

One question is answered. You have neither accepted nor refuted the answer given...but you've gone on to raise 1000 more issues.

Experience has taught me that only dishonest people act this way.

First things first: do you agree that Jesus is the first and the last?

pls don't waste your time on sombody that does not belief the Trinity becos he will NEVER agree with you..



#his jst indirectly talking about the Trinity#

I really do not understand why most people go into vain babblings with the Roman Catholic folks. They believe they ( their leaders) can add and take out of the Holy Bible, other Christians believe the bible is the spirit of truth hence it is inerrant. Why don't you guys leave them to add and take away what best appeal to them without compelling them to stay within the confines of the scriptures.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT IS A LIBERAL WORLD, isn't it? But we were told these things even in the pages of the Bible-

1 Tim 4
3 For the time is coming when [people] will not tolerate (endure) sound and wholesome instruction, but, having ears itching [for something pleasing and gratifying], they will gather to themselves one teacher after another to a considerable number, chosen to satisfy their own liking and to foster the errors they hold,
4 And will turn aside from hearing the truth and wander off into myths and man-made fictions.

shdemidemi: I really do not understand why most people go into vain babblings with the Roman Catholic folks. They believe they ( their leaders) can add and take out of the Holy Bible, other Christians believe the bible is the spirit of truth hence it is inerrant. Why don't you guys leave them to add and take away what best appeal to them without compelling them to stay within the confines of the scriptures.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT IS A LIBERAL WORLD, isn't it?

1. You lie. We Catholics dont believe we can add or subtract from the Bible, else we would not have declared the Canon of the Bible closed.

2. Truthislight believes the Bible was written by fallible men, meaning it could contain error.

Are you saying he lied?

JMAN05:

ok. how should gen. 3:15 read and do you have a prove from hebrew?

How did Rev. 12 support that the woman will crush the serpent?

And not even Eve --- but Mary!

Una still dey on this matter. na wa o

shdemidemi:
They believe they ( their leaders) can add and take out of the Holy Bible, other Christians believe the bible is the spirit of truth hence it is inerrant.

This may not be 100% correct. i think the issue is more of interpretation of scriptures.

"Infallible" "pope"

"... after Christ, we find in Mary the end of the law and the fulfillment of the figures and oracles."

versus

Romans 10:4

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes."




And again I say: infallible ko, mumuness ni!