golpen:

I don't really have a problem with waiting, only I can't find a fossil record of a grape too big that two grown men had to carry

Join an archaeology team, you might get lucky. While you are at it; see if you can spot any of the millions of 90 feet people that lived during Adams time

cloudstar: golpen



My intent had nothing to do with scoring points mate. It was to address your questions

Ok ok ok...it's okay.

If you are an honest debater, you will confirm that no record of their actual height was given in the Book of Numbers. For example, they weren't 60 cubit tall or 90 feet tall. You can cross reference and try and cast shadow of doubt on what was written but you can't deny that no height was specified

I already made that point by saying not absolute, but by saying they looked like grasshoppers in the giants' sight, that is confirmed enough a record.

I gave you a reason, it was an assumption and I called it "fear" and I stated it. Secondly, there is reason to believe they exaggerated because they brought an "evil report"

I think you should stop right here because you're getting yourself trapped. I accused you of making assumptions and you're confirming it's true that you're making assumptions, but you know assumptions aren't too acceptable in debates.

Secondly, you're going against your own self first by saying they exaggerated and now, look at what you said above. Haba!!!

Nope, it is not. They brought an evil report with an exception of Caleb. What was evil about what they saw? Nothing!.

The evil report isn't an evidence for reason of exaggeration. The evil report is that they actually looked like grasshoppers in their sights and they feared loosing, only for caleb who trusted God to win!!!

Please see my answer above

Your answer is mere assumption and you confirm it. That shows how good a debator you are

No it didn't Bros. The Hadith, gave an exact description of Adams height. The Bible in the book of Numbers you referred to, DIDN'T. The Bible could have easily described this giants like they way it described Og and Goliath but it DIDN'T. So, forcing a statement on the Bible doesn't change anything; it only shows your level of reasoning.

How would they have measured what they feared? but the description of what they could easily draft is they looked like GRASSHOPPERS in their sights, which is good enough a measure. They could have looked like younger brothers or ants! Why grasshoppers?

I don't see what makes the Bible ill Bros. I said the accounts of the scouts was exaggerated; I never mentioned the Bible exaggerated; you did

Whoa! But I don't remember the bible has a mouth to speak except for what's in it and I don't remember saying the bible exaggerated, I mean some accounts in it. And what makes it worthy by that?

Again, I drew this conclusion; I never said it was a fact. If you notice, I only state what was confirmed and where things were not definite, I offer plausible reason.

You drew this conclusion? Read yourself again

Oh it has - you totally ignored my explanation of Og and Goliath as well as the evidence of Giants fossils in our present day - questions that I totally addressed but you that you failed to admit to. All you are seeing is grasshoppers . Perhaps you should take my approach at explaining Adams "mutation". I have been honest with you and did my best to answer your question.

Your og and goliath weren't the anakims we are discussing. Their accounts are irrelevant and a distraction to this debate. Never bring them up again.

HOWEVER, THE BIBLE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ADAM BEEN 90 FEET TALL. AGAIN, WE HAVE A CASE WHERE A MUSLIM IS RELYING ON THE BIBLE TO EXPLAIN THE HADITH. THE GIANTS IN THE BIBLE ARE NOT RELATED TO ADAM - ARE THEY?

The bible is what you believe in and you wouldn't believe an hadith. Maybe a bible account may help you learn. That's what the muslims are like. We learn from others and we don't sit in peering at the window of our religion to criticise.

So, let us not side-step the issue. Islam can't explain 90 feet Adam and you claiming it's "mutation" is simply LUDACRIS

You just say you are coy on your account of the biblical anakims which maybe embarrassing to you and you assuming that account is exaggerating is eeerrrmm... SNOOP DOGG!!!

golpen

Ok ok ok...it's okay.

I already made that point by saying not absolute, but by saying they looked like grasshoppers in the giants' sight, that is confirmed enough a record.

An agreeable analysis, non the less an analysis

I think you should stop right here because you're getting yourself trapped. I accused you of making assumptions and you're confirming it's true that you're making assumptions, but you know assumptions aren't too acceptable in debates.

Bros, we make assumptions/possible outcomes when there is no concrete evidence. There is no concrete evidence of the height of these giants; you are the one insisting on your grasshopper theory

Secondly, you're going against your own self first by saying they exaggerated and now, look at what you said above. Haba!!!

The exaggeration was brought up as a result of the "evil report". I was displaying how several people could look at the situation but here you are stating it's my stand on the matter. My stand is simple as I have answered you earlier - THERE IS NO INFORMATION TO DETERMINE THE EXACT HEIGHT OF THE GIANTS. You can keep your grass-hopper theory if you like, I guess it's similar to your "mutation" theory

The evil report isn't an evidence for reason of exaggeration. The evil report is that they actually looked like grasshoppers in their sights and they feared loosing, only for caleb who trusted God to win!!!

Unfortunately, the text doesn't provide that explanation. All I offered was assumptions and possible explanations but like always; you have taken it and ran with it in another direction. Either way - the height of the GIANTS was never mentioned.

How would they have measure what they feared? grin but the description of what they could easily draft is they looked like GRASSHOPPERS in their sights, which is good enough a measure. They could have looked like younger brothers or ants! Why grasshoppers?

Now that is an assumption . Well done, you are following along

Whoa! But I don't remember the bible has a mouth to speak except for what's in it and I don't remember saying the bible exaggerated, I mean some accounts in it. And what makes it worthy by that?

.

It's amazing how this has turn to a Bible debate

Your og and goliath weren't the anakims we are discussing. Their accounts are irrelevant and a distraction to this debate. Never bring them up again. smiley

Really, please check their lineage before you shoot yourself in the foot

The bible is what you believe in and you wouldn't believe an hadith. Maybe a bible account may help you learn. That's what the muslims are like. We learn from others and we don't sit in peering at the window of our religion to criticise.

So where did Muslim learn that Adam was 90 feet tall?

You just say you are coy on your account of the biblical anakims which maybe embarrassing to you and you assuming that account is exaggerating is eeerrrmm... SNOOP DOGG

Coy!, you don't say. All my answers have been confined to the texts you mentioned in the Bible. Your "mutation" theory is my snooze button to laugh during this discussion. However, I admire you that you admitted you there is no scientific basis for Islam account of Adam being 90 feet.

Your questions at the Bible are efforts to justify such 7th century fairy tales. However, I appreciate you

cloudstar: golpen







An agreeable analysis, non the less an analysis

Bros, we make assumptions/possible outcomes when there is no concrete evidence. There is no concrete evidence of the height of these giants; you are the one insisting on your grasshopper theory

My grasshopper theory is biblical, so you know who to blame and that is the measure when their's no concrete evidence because it's what we've got, not ASSUMPTIONS

The exaggeration was brought up as a result of the "evil report". I was displaying how several people could look at the situation but here you are stating it's my stand on the matter. My stand is simple as I have answered you earlier - THERE IS NO INFORMATION TO DETERMINE THE EXACT HEIGHT OF THE GIANTS. You can keep your grass-hopper theory if you like, I guess it's similar to your "mutation" theory

We need facts, not people's look at situations. Be factual please. My biblical grasshopper theory is factual, you can read it too.

Unfortunately, the text doesn't provide that explanation. All I offered was assumptions and possible explanations but like always; you have taken it and ran with it in another direction. Either way - the height of the GIANTS was never mentioned.

Your assumption theory is getting out of hands. Can't you produce facts?

Now that is an assumption . Well done, you are following along

Nope mr, it is not an assumption. The height of some giants were given in detail in some biblical accounts, why not these? Okay let me make another assumption please; the tape rule was too short to measure their heights

It's amazing how this has turn to a Bible debate

You had your reservations about the hadith and I thrashed it. Here, you are accusing biblical accounts as exaggerated and I was trying to protect that fine book

Really, please check their lineage before you shoot yourself in the foot

I don't care about their lineage, they aren't the anakims in question.

So where did Muslim learn that Adam was 90 feet tall?

From the bible?

Coy!, you don't say. All my answers have been confined to the texts you mentioned in the Bible. Your "mutation" theory is my snooze button to laugh during this discussion. However, I admire you that you admitted you there is no scientific basis for Islam account of Adam being 90 feet.

Your exaggeration theory has not been confined or confirmed in that biblical story which makes it all worse or maybe my tickling finger to giggle . And then you know I won't admire you bragging on producing nothing but assumptions and possible explanations (you admitted to that pls read above in case you forget) not facts.

Your questions at the Bible are efforts to justify such 7th century fairy tales. However, I appreciate you

Your question at the hadith is an effort to antagonise the muslim inventions and scientific pre-information in islam. However, you've tried too and thanks for the appreciation, but mind you, Adam lived thousands of years before 7th century.

golpen

My grasshopper theory is biblical, so you know who to blame and that is the measure when their's no concrete evidence because it's what we've got, not ASSUMPTIONS

A true measure is confirmation of their exact height - something that the text doesn't state. You can go around in circles but it doesn't change the text

We need facts, not people's look at situations. Be factual please. My biblical grasshopper theory is factual, you can read it too.

Again, if you can prove their stated heights, then you have provided facts; until you can, you speaking without words

Your assumption theory is getting out of hands. Can't you produce facts?

FACT FROM THE TEXT = THERE IS NO WHERE IN THE TEXT, THE HEIGHTS OF THESE GIANTS WERE MENTIONED.

Nope mr, it is not an assumption. The height of some giants were given in detail in some biblical accounts, why not these? Okay let me make another assumption please; the tape rule was too short to measure their heights

Good question? Why didn't the Hadith tell us Eve's height or the number of years it takes for man to shrink from one size to the other? . If an event is not capture, it simply means it wasn't capture. Only fools will sign up for such courses

You had your reservations about the hadith and I thrashed it. Here, you are accusing biblical accounts as exaggerated and I was trying to protect that fine book

Trashed it . You have already conceded that the 90 feet Adam is not scientific so there is no need to say anything else.

I don't care about their lineage, they aren't the anakims in question

.

Another ignorant statement from someone that can't research

From the bible?

And where in the the Bible does it show God created Adam as 90 feet tall? This is getting interesting. Please refer to the Book, the chapter and the verse(s)

Your exaggeration theory has not been confined or confirmed in that biblical story which makes it all worse or maybe my tickling finger to giggle . And then you know I won't admire you bragging on producing nothing but assumptions and possible explanations (you admitted to that pls read above in case you forget) not facts.

Yes I did. However, I never said the Bible did. The point is simple, the height of these giants were never stated. You are the one stating otherwise. I still find it interesting why the Bible came into the picture when it is the Hadith that claimed Adam was 90 feet tall

Your question at the hadith is an effort to antagonise the muslim inventions and scientific pre-information in islam. However, you've tried too and thanks for the appreciation, but mind you, Adam lived thousands of years before 7th century

If one waits patiently, a muslim will ALMOST ALWAYS shoot themself in the foot. First, you said the creation of Adam was millions of years old as compared the dinosuars which there thousands of years old. You are now here stating that that he lived thousands of years before the 7th century. Interesting . How old is the Quran/Hadith explanation of the creation of man?

Take this from someone which Arabian lineage. The creative impulse underlying Islamic art, Islamic philosophy, Islamic science and Islamic literature came from outside Islam, from contact with older civilizations with a richer heritage. Artistic, philosophical, and scientific traditions were totally lacking in Arabia. Only poetry emerged from the Arab past, and its continued creativity owed little to spedifically Islamic inspiration. Without Byzantine art and Sassanian art there would have been no Islamic art, Islam was hostile to it's development. Similarly, without the influence of Greek philosophy and Greek science there would not have been Islamic philosophy or Islamic science for Islam was certainly ill-disposed to these "foreign sciences". For the orthodox, Islamic philosophy was a contradiction in terms and Islamic science futile.

cloudstar: golpen



A true measure is confirmation of their exact height - something that the text doesn't state. You can go around in circles but it doesn't change the text

Who's going in circles here? A certainty we can hold on to is the is my grasshopper theory and its there!!! You're the one trying to change the text that is verbatim and crystal clear.

Again, if you can prove their stated heights, then you have provided facts; until you can, you speaking without words

You do the experiment and maths yourself. Multiply the number of grashopper heights that makes yours with your actual height

FACT FROM THE TEXT = THERE IS NO WHERE IN THE TEXT, THE HEIGHTS OF THESE GIANTS WERE MENTIONED.

The fact from the text is that the scouts looked like grasshoppers in the sights of the giants. Shikena!!! Bros you stubborn o

Good question? Why didn't the Hadith tell us Eve's height or the number of years it takes for man to shrink from one size to the other? . If an event is not capture, it simply means it wasn't capture. Only fools will sign up for such courses

I agree with you, only if you tell me what you'd call a man who signs up to an account of a man looking like a grasshopper in the sights of another man worse still one who claims his holy scripture has accounts of exaggeration

Trashed it . You have already conceded that the 90 feet Adam is not scientific so there is no need to say anything else.

You would also claim you addressed my questions even when you failed to produce a single fact. My grasshopper theory is biblical, my mutation theory is scientific. pleas what's is your exaggeration and assumption theory
.

Another ignorant statement from someone that can't research

You've started with your assumptions again. How is it an ignorant statement?

And where in the the Bible does it show God created Adam as 90 feet tall? This is getting interesting. Please refer to the Book, the chapter and the verse(s)

Read clear bro... You missed the question mark

Yes I did. However, I never said the Bible did. The point is simple, the height of these giants were never stated. You are the one stating otherwise. I still find it interesting why the Bible came into the picture when it is the Hadith that claimed Adam was 90 feet tall

Please tell me how the scouts described their heights as against the giants

If one waits patiently, a muslim will ALMOST ALWAYS shoot themself in the foot. First, you said the creation of Adam was millions of years old as compared the dinosuars which there thousands of years old. You are now here stating that that he lived thousands of years before the 7th century. Interesting . How old is the Quran/Hadith explanation of the creation of man?

I'm just human and I agree I must have mixed it since I don't know the figures. See I admit, and that's how a big heart does, not sticking to assumptions and false excuses while debating accusing someone else of going in circles when you're the victim.

Take this from someone which Arabian lineage. The creative impulse underlying Islamic art, Islamic philosophy, Islamic science and Islamic literature came from outside Islam, from contact with older civilizations with a richer heritage. Artistic, philosophical, and scientific traditions were totally lacking in Arabia. Only poetry emerged from the Arab past, and its continued creativity owed little to spedifically Islamic inspiration. Without Byzantine art and Sassanian art there would have been no Islamic art, Islam was hostile to it's development. Similarly, without the influence of Greek philosophy and Greek science there would not have been Islamic philosophy or Islamic science for Islam was certainly ill-disposed to these "foreign sciences". For the orthodox, Islamic philosophy was a contradiction in terms and Islamic science futile.

I don't blame the guy because he is an ignorant originally, I only blame you for ingnorantly following the blind and with this, you have just shattered your prestige I hold you on, because I thought you could make your own research and you accuse me of not being able to make research. I'll help you with just one out of many. Do you know ibn sina? Please search.

And please, I give up . I'm not in for endless arguments any longer. It was really a nice chat with you.

golpen

Who's going in circles here? A certainty we can hold on to is the is my grasshopper theory and its there!!! You're the one trying to change the text that is verbatim and crystal clear.

No one is denying grasshopper was mentioned. The bone of contention is the EXACT height of the giants; something that wasn't stated in the text. A clear example would be, the giants were 60 cubits tall. That is why there was no debate about Adams height in the Hadith, nor that of Goliath or Og. No one is trying to change anything; the issue here is you can only see grass-hopper. and not answering my question.

You do the experiment and maths yourself. Multiply the number of grasshopper heights that makes yours with your actual height

My height is irrelevant to the discussion. We don't know how tall the Scouts were nor do we know how tall the Giants were. Anything else would be considered unfounded

The fact from the text is that the scouts looked like grasshoppers in the sights of the giants. Shikena!!! Bros you stubborn o

My point is simple - we have no means of judging of the actual size of these men, unless the height assigned to Goliath or deduced from Og's bed. The statement may have been figurative, hyperbole or literal. Either way, you or I can't tell from the text. If that is hard to understand, then there is nothing more to say to you.

I agree with you, only if you tell me what you'd call a man who signs up to an account of a man looking like a grasshopper in the sights of another man worse still one who claims his holy scripture has accounts of exaggeration

Cheap tactic of dodging my question and focusing on the Bible instead.

You would also claim you addressed my questions even when you failed to produce a single fact. My grasshopper theory is biblical, my mutation theory is scientific. pleas what's is your exaggeration and assumption theory

All my statements have been from the Bible. I answered your fossil question we have in present day Wisconsin, so far you have been silent on that. I demonstrated Biblical records of actual measurements of Giants in the Bible, you said it was irrelevant. I stated and still state that there is no information to determine the Giants height in Numbers 13:33 but you are blind to that.

You've started with your assumptions again. How is it an ignorant statement?

Did you research the lineage of these Giants before you stated you don't care about their lineage?

Read clear bro... You missed the question mark

Na simple question na - tell us where in the Bible that it stated the first man God created was 90 feet tall. You don't have to dodge this bullet, it's a direct one

Please tell me how the scouts described their heights as against the giants

The shouts never stated their heights or did the author of this book in the Bible. It gave a figurative description of them.

I'm just human and I agree I must have mixed it since I don't know the figures. See I admit, and that's how a big heart does, not sticking to assumptions and false excuses while debating accusing someone else of going in circles when you're the victim.

You admit because you lied earlier. I have told you no lies Bros; we might have differences in our religion and may have different beliefs but I have been very honest with you. However, that doesn't answer my question - How old is the Quran/Hadith explanation of the creation of man?

I don't blame the guy because he is an ignorant originally, I only blame you for ignorantly following the blind and with this, you have just shattered your prestige I hold you on, because I thought you could make your own research and you accuse me of not being able to make research. I'll help you with just one out of many. Do you know ibn sina? Please search

I wasn't quoting anyone, I was referring to myself. One can be a Muslim without been an Arab, however no Muslim can deny that Arabian culture and way of life heavily influences Islam as a religion. List one major scientific break-through in the last 150 years of any Islamic country. The car you drive, your computer, your phone, electricity, medicine, agriculture, the internet you use and the servers that power these forums aren't Islamic discoveries or inventions. I am not trying to play down Islam, however - we should be honest irrespective of our religious leanings.

golpen: And please, I give up . I'm not in for endless arguments any longer. It was really a nice chat with you.

You too Bro. Always a breath of fresh air to debate with an intelligent person and discuss religion. God bless you

I did not see Facebook there or apple computer, dell or tv, I have never seen people that believe in conspiracy theories like Muslims.