Capitalism and islam dont mix like oil and water.

Ever since the 2007 financial crisis, it has been common to hear muslims mock and deride the the economic system of the West- Capitalism

We hear comments like

-"if only they have followed divine economic system of islamic finance"
-"the kuffar has been blinded by their greed"
-"haha look at how their system failed and muslim nations such as Saudi/UAE are doing well...AllahuAkbar"


Even here on nairaland, I debated with Maclatunji and Tbaba who carried the same sentiment that the West would have been better off with Islamic finance.


The problem here is that of ignorance of economics and finance. As someone who studied both, I will tell you that it is a fact that every capitalist system goes through a cycle of boom and bust....the problem is that one can not predict how bad the bust (failure/downfall) will go.


============================(Skip financial lesson)
Why is that so? First and foremost, money has no real value- it only has an agreed value negotiated between govt as a legal tender and the markets. The Market side is where it becomes interesting....the value of money is tied to its supply and the dynamics of goods traded in that same currency. When such goods lose their value, money loses it's value later but not immediately. Anything that has no real value will can fluctuate up and down. --- Just like a cycle of boom and bust

While this is as simple as I can explain, I will go further to explain it in terms of the financial crisis that happened. Shares/stocks like money have no real value....they are dependent on what the companies and market say they are. Now, should a company's experience a loss- the loss is not always immediately reflected in the valuation of its shares on the market because the market might not have the up to date inside information on the company. Should a company hide this loss for a long time- the market and investors will face a shock later when the shares drop.....This is what the bank did- they hid toxic assets (mortgages people cant pay) to bolster their financial statements until it became a shock in the market. This can be prevented with solid financial laws but thanks to Bush, we got deregulation...
====================================



You can skip the financial lesson and get to the part where muslims who mock capitalism are mocking their ignorance.

1) Islamic finance has never built economies like how capitalism has
2) Capitalism has created more jobs and has witnessed growth in companies and start ups than any economic system
3) Capitalists do not claim that capitalism is perfect but then islamic finance is based on perfect principles from the Quran and yet, it is not half as successful as capitalism


And to preemptively block the "Islamic Golden Age" argument, there has never been a time where Arabs or muslims were the financial capital of the world. They might have had scientific and technological supremacy once but never financial.



So, before a muslim mocks capitalism or the financial crisis, one should look at his islamic finance and see whether it has done any better.....

Even with the financial crisis, the western economies still remain better on many criteria than ANY ISLAMIC country's economy

Lol, for you to say capitalism and Islam don't mix, it means you know little about one or both.

1. You don't need to be a Muslim, to mock capitalism, the proponents of socialism, communism I . Karl max are not all Muslims.

Where you showed your ignorance is assuming capitalism=finance.

Capitalism is the economic system as a whole, which finance is only a part of.

All economic system have their pros/cons.
And that's the reason why we don't have a pure capitalist system, what we have is mixed economic system, with some countries having a higher part capitalism.

The Islamic economic system which the Islamic finance is a part of, if you know the system you would know it's a combination of both, with laws guiding it, and that's where non-interest banking/business, profit-loss sharing business/banking system, giving people the full worth of what they paid for, taxation, not exploiting the labour force, etc. it's all part of.


So you saying Islamic finance this, Islamic finance that you are talking about its just a part of it.

Islamic finance system, is more successful than the conventional finance system, the west have started realizing this, and are buying more into it.

Economic systems change, and the capitalist system as we know it is changing already, soon the Islamic system will be practiced, it may not be called the "Islamic economic system" but the principles/laws guiding it will be the same as that of the Islamic system, I already see some western countries adopting part of it.

Sissie: Lol, for you to say capitalism and Islam don't mix, it means you know little about one or both.

1. You don't need to be a Muslim, to mock capitalism, the proponents of socialism, communism I . Karl max are not all Muslims.

Where you showed your ignorance is assuming capitalism=finance.

Capitalism is the economic system as a whole, which finance is only a part of.

All economic system have their pros/cons.
And that's the reason why we don't have a pure capitalist system, what we have is mixed economic system, with some countries having a higher part capitalism.

The Islamic economic system which the Islamic finance is a part of, if you know the system you would know it's a combination of both, with laws guiding it, and that's where non-interest banking/business, profit-loss sharing business/banking system, giving people the full worth of what they paid for, taxation, not exploiting the labour force, etc. it's all part of.


So you saying Islamic finance this, Islamic finance that you are talking about its just a part of it.

You are arguing dubiously and ignorantly

1) I neverr equated capitalism to finance. Why did you have to lie and forward that strawman?
If you noticed, the topic is on the financial crisis of capitalist economies in the west. It was actually your muslim pals that were using the finance part to attack capitalism. I had to explain the finance


2) I did not say that only muslims have problems with capittalism. I amb complaining about muslims who bash the west with capitalism out of ignorance. Karl marx argued against capitalism with logic. He saw the problems of inequality and commodity fetishism in the capitalist model. HOwever, despite his criticism he failed to come up with a better economic system. How many marxist economists do u know today?

3) Islam and capitalism do not mix. Islamic finance is an example of why. No interest, no shares (investing in shares is gambling you take a risk on the value of the share- it either goes up or down...capital gains or loss). What is capitalism today without shares and interest? Do publicly traded shares between companies and individuals make sense in a socialist economy?

4) I clearly stated that capitalism is not perfect. You arguing that every economic model has pros and cons, just shows that you have comprehension problems or u just like to argue against strawmen


5) Telling me about mixed economies is just showing off what u learnt in secondary school economics. We all know that.


In summary, u have argued two strawmen and then made the false claim rthat islam and capitalism mix. A claim dat even ur fellow muslim clerics denounce.

Sissie: Islamic finance system, is more successful than the conventional finance system, the west have started realizing this, and are buying more into it.

Economic systems change, and the capitalist system as we know it is changing already, soon the Islamic system will be practiced, it may not be called the "Islamic economic system" but the principles/laws guiding it will be the same as that of the Islamic system, I already see some western countries adopting part of it.

Nonsense of the highest order. The only reason that western countries adopt islamic finance is to attract middle eastern investors who are aroused by anything islamic. Funny enough, manY of your rich Arabs have millions in swiss and haram accounts in the west. They know that islamic finance cant give them returns they need

1) Islamic finance has never built economies like how capitalism has
2) Capitalism has created more jobs and has witnessed growth in companies and start ups than any economic system
3) Capitalists do not claim that capitalism is perfect but then islamic finance is based on perfect principles from the Quran and yet, it is not half as successful as capitalism

the above is what you wrote!!!

And now you wrote

"1) I neverr equated capitalism to finance. Why did you have to lie and forward that strawman?
If you noticed, the topic is on the financial crisis of capitalist economies in the west. It was actually your muslim pals that were using the finance part to attack capitalism. I had to explain the finance"


Lol, dude I didn't study economics at secondary level, I am an economist, I have studied economic systems.

If you want to talk about finance system, restrict it to that, and we would discuss the both finance system.
But capitalism as a whole is more than just the finance system.

Sissie: 1) Islamic finance has never built economies like how capitalism has
2) Capitalism has created more jobs and has witnessed growth in companies and start ups than any economic system
3) Capitalists do not claim that capitalism is perfect but then islamic finance is based on perfect principles from the Quran and yet, it is not half as successful as capitalism

the above is what you wrote!!!

And now you wrote

"1) I neverr equated capitalism to finance. Why did you have to lie and forward that strawman?
If you noticed, the topic is on the financial crisis of capitalist economies in the west. It was actually your muslim pals that were using the finance part to attack capitalism. I had to explain the finance"


Lol, dude I didn't study economics at secondary level, I am an economist, I have studied economic systems.

If you want to talk about finance system, restrict it to that, and we would discuss the both finance system.
But capitalism as a whole is more than just the finance system.

What is this one talking?


The islamic economic model has no name that i am aware of and even your fellow muslims refer to it as islamic finance.

Of course finance is only a part of any economic model......
But how can i describe something withoutr using the term that other muslims use?


Bravo....u have succeeded in arguing an irrelevant point. Even if i was wrong and i equated finance to an economic model, does that somehow change the following facts that:

-capitalism has been the best economic model we have had so far and that it as performed better than any islamic model?

-muslims....some of them ignorantly mock capitalism with the financial meltrdown

there was such a time in the Muslim world when those delegated to distribute the zakah found no one to accept it.

Congratulations to the current western economies living a 'first class ticket' in the journey of life lifestyle while most of the rest of the world stay impoverished and wonder why God has been partial to a certain group of people. Those who were feudal lords over a largely poor populace living in darkness and ignorance in the middle ages now have no equals in wealth.
First things first; gain military might, and then establish puppet institutions of control over the whole world, do not forget to include those financial institutions that will control the global economy using complex financial tools, manipulating the gold standard and making your own currency the medium of international trade, baiting poor countries with loans to keep them indebted till eternity. And don't forget to place harsh economic sanctions on those that challenge the status quo.
We seek refuge in you our Lord. You alone we worship, You alone we ask for help.

@logicbwoy it's obvious you know little about the Islamic economic system, there's been so much talk about Islamic finance system due to the recent Islamic banking system in Nigeria and the Islamic finance system being adopted by the west I.e the bond, investment, interest free banking. But that doesn't mean Muslims do not know the economic model, I do agree many Muslims don't know much about the Islamic economic system but then many Muslims don't know much about Islamic judicial system either.

Capitalism has been good to an extent but it has its cons, that it's beginning to fail and theirs the need for the west to adopt a better managed economic system

how then do you compare the capitalist system to the Islamic system and say it has performed better, on what comparison was this based?

snubish: there was such a time in the Muslim world when those delegated to distribute the zakah found no one to accept it.

Congratulations to the current western economies living a 'first class ticket' in the journey of life lifestyle while most of the rest of the world stay impoverished and wonder why God has been partial to a certain group of people. Those who were feudal lords over a largely poor populace living in darkness and ignorance in the middle ages now have no equals in wealth.
First things first; gain military might, and then establish puppet institutions of control over the whole world, do not forget to include those financial institutions that will control the global economy using complex financial tools, manipulating the gold standard and making your own currency the medium of international trade, baiting poor countries with loans to keep them indebted till eternity. And don't forget to place harsh economic sanctions on those that challenge the status quo.
We seek refuge in you our Lord. You alone we worship, You alone we ask for help.

Your right, they manipulate the price of oil, gold, control the international monetary organizations, make the 3rd world indebted to them.

snubish: there was such a time in the Muslim world when those delegated to distribute the zakah found no one to accept it.

Congratulations to the current western economies living a 'first class ticket' in the journey of life lifestyle while most of the rest of the world stay impoverished and wonder why God has been partial to a certain group of people. Those who were feudal lords over a largely poor populace living in darkness and ignorance in the middle ages now have no equals in wealth.
First things first; gain military might, and then establish puppet institutions of control over the whole world, do not forget to include those financial institutions that will control the global economy using complex financial tools, manipulating the gold standard and making your own currency the medium of international trade, baiting poor countries with loans to keep them indebted till eternity. And don't forget to place harsh economic sanctions on those that challenge the status quo.
We seek refuge in you our Lord. You alone we worship, You alone we ask for help.

1) The bold is as false as Micheal Jackson's white skin.....there is no verifiable historical proof for that comment in bold.That is a "feel good" Islamic myth. Allow me to take it with a grain of salt.


2) The rest of your comments lump the all west/capitalist countries into stereotypes of the UK and USA.....tell me, is Sweden or Norway dropping bombs in Afghanistan or oppressing people to make money?


3) Lets even go to the East- Japan which is capitalist and Singapore which is "state capitalist"....do they fit in the nonsense stereotype that fills your comment?

Sissie: @logicbwoy it's obvious you know little about the Islamic economic system, there's been so much talk about Islamic finance system due to the recent Islamic banking system in Nigeria and the Islamic finance system being adopted by the west I.e the bond, investment, interest free banking. But that doesn't mean Muslims do not know the economic model, I do agree many Muslims don't know much about the Islamic economic system but then many Muslims don't know much about Islamic judicial system either.

Capitalism has been good to an extent but it has its cons, that it's beginning to fail and theirs the need for the west to adopt a better managed economic system

how then do you compare the capitalist system to the Islamic system and say it has performed better, on what comparison was this based?

You are just repeating like a broken record....move on...you stramanned out...

Sissie:

Your right, they manipulate the price of oil, gold, control the international monetary organizations, make the 3rd world indebted to them.

Does this apply to all capitalist countries in the West? Who are "they"

don't allow me to call you a moose. Japan, singapore, sweden, Norway, pardon me is this a joke. Those countries are trained in the art of kissing the establishment's behind, especially japan since the bomb. You take yourself too seriously, just plainly overrated.

Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name of Allah, The All Compassionate, The All Merciful. As salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh; The peace be upon you, and The Mercy of Allah and HIS Blessings.


I pray that I'm not barging in where I don't belong. I would hope that the Islamic Economic System, will be studied as well, because it does deserve a chance. I pray that the following, will be informative.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmlX3fLQrEc The One Percent


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H56FUHgqRNE The Money Masters - Full-Length (3hrs 19m)


This one I haven't viewed as yet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcGh1Dex4Yo 97% Owned - Economic Truth documentary


http://www.teachislam.com/content/view/118/258/ re: Economic System of Islam




Wassalaam. DevotedOne

Thanks for the videos. Hopefully I will watch them. And as a footnote in this discussion I leave the following quote:

"I am much more socialistic in my economic theory than capitalistic. And yet I am not so opposed to capitalism that I have failed to see its relative merits. It started out with a noble and high
motive, viz., to block the trade monopolies of nobles, but like most human systems it fell victim to the very thing it was revolting against. So today capitalism has out-lived its usefulness. It has brought about a system that takes necessities from the masses to give luxuries to the classes."
- Martin Luther King Jnr.

PS: And if I'm to take the success model on which the 'Islamocracies' are based on as true, I'd say humanity is in trouble and Islamic banking is no better than its capitalist counterpart, the same for socialism. The success of the UAE is supposedly based on considerable amounts of poorly treated migrant workers from okaces like India and Pakistan, Africa isn't to be left out. This to me shows a 'matrix-like' flaw in humanity and by inclusion economic systems: it's one of character, it's the enemy of slack, it's similar to concept of sin IMO.

What makes the UAE an 'islamocracy'. There is no Islamic state in the world today. No one meets the basic principle of an islamic state.

We should talk more about the principles of an Islamic economy and it's historical examples of success. Maybe its possible application in a modern world.

tbaba1234: What makes the UAE an 'islamocracy'. There is no Islamic state in the world today. No one meets the basic principle of an islamic state.

We should talk more about the principles of an Islamic economy and it's historical examples of success. Maybe its possible application in a modern world.

The fact that there is no islamic state in the world is a failure of Islam in itself. Muslim leaders in various Muslim countries can not apply laws written down for them at their convenience from Allah through the prophet.

There exists no historical example if an Islamic economic model being mire successful than known economic models of the time. Please tell me when in history has Islamic trade or economics dominated the world

Uyi Iredia: Thanks for the videos. Hopefully I will watch them. And as a footnote in this discussion I leave the following quote:

"I am much more socialistic in my economic theory than capitalistic. And yet I am not so opposed to capitalism that I have failed to see its relative merits. It started out with a noble and high
motive, viz., to block the trade monopolies of nobles, but like most human systems it fell victim to the very thing it was revolting against. So today capitalism has out-lived its usefulness. It has brought about a system that takes necessities from the masses to give luxuries to the classes."
- Martin Luther King Jnr.

PS: And if I'm to take the success model on which the 'Islamocracies' are based on as true, I'd say humanity is in trouble and Islamic banking is no better than its capitalist counterpart, the same for socialism. The success of the UAE is supposedly based on considerable amounts of poorly treated migrant workers from okaces like India and Pakistan, Africa isn't to be left out. This to me shows a 'matrix-like' flaw in humanity and by inclusion economic systems: it's one of character, it's the enemy of slack, it's similar to concept of sin IMO.

Explain how I am to take this your comment seriously?

first you quote MLK as if he is an economist. Most successful economies are capitalist more than socialist. Capitalism mixed with a rise of socialism through govt regulation is the war forward; a mixed economy. MLK was wrong.


Capitalism is not perfect. No system is perfect. Capitalism is just the best system so far

tbaba1234: What makes the UAE an 'islamocracy'. There is no Islamic state in the world today. No one meets the basic principle of an islamic state.

We should talk more about the principles of an Islamic economy and it's historical examples of success. Maybe its possible application in a modern world.

There are Islamic states in the Middle East and in Asia eg Saudi Arabia, Malaysia and Pakistan. Islamic states use Islam and by inclusion Sharia law as the guiding principle in the management of the state's affairs. Attimes this is formally declared as in the case of Pakistan, at times it is de facto but not in the law. Even some states in Nigeria are Islamist. As a Muslim you should know this. Please read Wikipedia or Google it.

Uyi Iredia:

There are Islamic states in the Middle East and in Asia eg Saudi Arabia, Malaysia and Pakistan. Islamic states use Islam and by inclusion Sharia law as the guiding principle in the management of the state's affairs. Attimes this is formally declared as in the case of Pakistan, at times it is de facto but not in the law. Even some states in Nigeria are Islamist. As a Muslim you should know this. Please read Wikipedia or Google it.

Dude, I saw all those examples before making my statement.

What you have are pseudo- Islamic states, who implement and mix Islam with other unislamic things.

The first criteria for an Islamic state is that all muslim living within its confines are citizens with full citizen rights. In Islam, Nationality or tribalism does not matter except as a means of identification or heritage.

Jubair ibn Mut’im reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “He is not one of us who calls to tribalism. He is not one of us who fights for the sake of tribalism. He is not one of us who dies following the way of tribalism.”

Source: Sunan Abu Dawud 5102

The prophet Muhammad last sermon:

'All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. ( Musnad Ahmad)

Surah Al-Hujurat 49:13 -O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female,and made you into nations and tribes,that you may know one another.Verily,the most honourable of you with Allah is that (believer) who has At-Taqwa [i.e. one of the Muttaquin)

Throughout the history of Islam, race, tribe and nation were not issues. As long as you are muslim from anywhere, you have citizen rights in the Islamic state.

We had not had an Islamic State for at about a century. We have muslim majority countries.

Read this thread, it will help you gain a better understanding:

https://www.nairaland.com/1068269/islamic-civilisation-islamic-law-reforming

We do not have an Islamic state, what we have are States who practice a part of the Islamic system, before a state can be called an Islamic state it needs to fulfill some criteria, Islam has its own political, social, economic, judicial system.

Sissie: We do not have an Islamic state, what we have are States who practice a part of the Islamic system, before a state can be called an Islamic state it needs to fulfill some criteria, Islam has its own political, social, economic, judicial system.

Don't derail the thread. Tbaba has addressed the issue and also, I have conceeded the point even before you posted..

The issue here is capitalism and islam

tbaba1234:

Dude, I saw all those examples before making my statement.

What you have are pseudo- Islamic states, who implement and mix Islam with other unislamic things.

The first criteria for an Islamic state is that all muslim living within its confines are citizens with full citizen rights. In Islam, Nationality or tribalism does not matter except as a means of identification or heritage.

Jubair ibn Mut’im reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “He is not one of us who calls to tribalism. He is not one of us who fights for the sake of tribalism. He is not one of us who dies following the way of tribalism.”

Source: Sunan Abu Dawud 5102

The prophet Muhammad last sermon:

'All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. ( Musnad Ahmad)

Surah Al-Hujurat 49:13 -O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female,and made you into nations and tribes,that you may know one another.Verily,the most honourable of you with Allah is that (believer) who has At-Taqwa [i.e. one of the Muttaquin)

Throughout the history of Islam, race, tribe and nation were not issues. As long as you are muslim from anywhere, you have citizen rights in the Islamic state.

We had not had an Islamic State for at about a century. We have muslim majority countries.

Read this thread, it will help you gain a better understanding:

https://www.nairaland.com/1068269/islamic-civilisation-islamic-law-reforming

Let's focus on the issue- capitalism; is there any islamic replacement for it?



But I have one correction....you lied that tribes and nationality didn't matter in the real islamic governments/economies of the past.

That is a lie. Why? One word. Ethopia. Were ethopia and arabia ever one?