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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? (9184 Views)
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Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by Image123(m): 8:46pm On Jan 03, 2014 |
davidylan: Caring one, who chose not to answer my question but called it an empty rhetoric. If you ever had to choose between sin and death, which would you choose? i use medicine and tell folks to use medicine. i have not said anything against using medicine. i asked if you know about faith, and you started all these epistle. Hope you are praying for me, as regards that prayer request that you gave me? Caring one, life itself is a risk, aborting babies is a risk, not aborting them is a risk. There is a level of faith that does not respond to what the doctor has to say, do you believe that, doc? |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by Nobody: 9:12pm On Jan 03, 2014 |
striktlymi: Now I am with my laptop and ready to do this... Allow me to respond on behalf of toluene12 before he comes on board... toluene12: 95% of ectopic pregnancies implant in the fallopian tubes, the remaining 5% implant in the ovary, peritoneum or other abdominal organ. According to page 487 of Clinical Gynecologic Endocrinology and Infertility 6th ed (Leon Speroff, Robert H. Glass, Nathan G. Kase, 1999 Lippincott Williams & Wilkins), tubal (fallopian) implantation represents 99% of all ectopic pregnancies, 1.4% occur in the abdomen, 0.2% in the ovaries and 0.2% in the cervix. toluene12: there've been only 4 recorded cases of successful abdominal pregnancy worldwide All 4 cases are presented, with citations, in the wikipedia entry for ectopic pregnancies. toluene12: The odds of such a pregnancy occurring and progressing to a point of being viable are less than 1 in a million. I was unable to locate a source for this. However, there is no reported case of a viable fetus from a tubal ectopic pregnancy (accounting for 99% of all cases of ectopic pregnancies). Only 4 have been recorded for abdominal pregnancies... which accounts for only 1.2% of all ectopic pregnancies. It should be noted that in all gynecological textbooks... the first line treatment for ectopic pregnancies (with no ruptures) is methotrexate. You should ensure you know your subject first before jumping into a debate. I thought that was the first rule of informed debate. 1 Like |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by Nobody: 9:17pm On Jan 03, 2014 |
Image123: I'm sorry, but in the case of ectopic pregnancies, i will choose to abort the fetus to save the life of my wife rather than send her to an untimely death all in the name of "level of faith"... particularly when the fetus is not going to be viable anyway. I asked earlier and you ignored it... does your concern for life include abolition of all wars and the death penalty for murderers? 1 Like |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by PAGAN9JA(m): 10:01pm On Jan 03, 2014 |
striktlymi: YES! in the case of mother about to undergo serious miscarriage and internal bleeding. Dont ask me joor! Ask the docs! Direct answer: The decision on what to do lies with the mother. Good! Atleast you agree the decision lies with the mother. Now how does that exclude abortion, when abortion is the only way for her to survive as in the case of Mrs Savitha Halappanavar? Why the heck are you diverting and bringing in a 2 yr old? We are talking about ABORTION of infants/embryos, not murder of kids.
Every life is precious? Then stop eating meat. If you do that, then I will agree with you. can you? The life of a cell and a red blood cell is also no better than a life of a mother then, according to your conclusion. |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by PAGAN9JA(m): 10:03pm On Jan 03, 2014 |
davidylan: |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by PAGAN9JA(m): 10:05pm On Jan 03, 2014 |
leggo: you can tell the same to jesus! |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by Image123(m): 10:51pm On Jan 03, 2014 |
davidylan: You did not answer my questions, David. This your question, kindly make it clearer, thanks. BTW, you did not answer my questions. |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by leggo: 10:55pm On Jan 03, 2014 |
PAGAN 9JA:tell him yourself.. |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by PAGAN9JA(m): 10:58pm On Jan 03, 2014 |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by leggo: 11:01pm On Jan 03, 2014 |
PAGAN 9JA:tell that to ya gods.. especially the faggs sango and orayan.. |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by Nobody: 11:02pm On Jan 03, 2014 |
Image123: I answered your question TWICE. You asked that in the context of abortion (in cases where it is detrimental to the woman's life) and i very clearly chose abortion over your idea of "level of faith". Besides, i think your "question" is quite deceptive. Should a christian soldier refuse his commanders orders to shoot an enemy in favor of "level of faith"? I wonder why you keep dodging the questions i asked by pretending i havent answered yours. That is the type of slimy deception i expect from atheists and not you. My questions have been VERY CLEAR - since you clearly oppose abortion regardless of circumstance, does this concern for life extend to wars and the death penalty... all of which involve murder on a much larger scale? I cant imagine that any body over the age of 5 cannot understand that question. |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by PAGAN9JA(m): 11:02pm On Jan 03, 2014 |
leggo: that was meant for you and your n.aked jewish god jizzus and his bit.ch mary and co. |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by Image123(m): 11:16pm On Jan 03, 2014 |
davidylan: David, David, have some patience oh, caring one. i said ou should clarify your questions for i do not understand them well. What has wars got to do with abortion? i don't want war BTW. Also, jdgement is not murder. My questions. Are you saying that you oppose abortion except in the case of ectopic pregnancies? If you ever had to choose between sin and death, which would you choose? . i asked if you know about faith, if you believe there are certain levels of faith that are more than doctors' report? i asked if you are praying for me, as regards that prayer request that you gave me? |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by Nobody: 11:26pm On Jan 03, 2014 |
Image123: Nah c'mon lets be honest here. What have wars to do with abortion? Is that a serious question? lol abortion is murder (as you say)... last i checked, war is committing willful mass murder. Perhaps now you have a better idea how they are connected now? Yes you do not want war, but are you as vociferously against war as you are against abortion? Do you consider soldiers to be sinners as you consider women who commit abortion even when it is to save their lives? Judgement may not be murder but capital punishment IS murder... i get tired of folks who want to worm their way out of uncomfortable positions by playing semantics with words. Do you or do you not consider capital punishment to be willfully taking a life similar to what happens with abortion? Image123: I have been very clear that abortion should only be permitted in cases where the pregnancy is detrimental to the life of the mother... ectopic pregnancies and rape of a minor are two clear examples. Image123: In the context of the topic (your question is worded deceptively), i choose abortion over certain death to the woman - that is the THIRD time i am having to answer that question. Image123: Please enough of this gullible nonsense. When you have cancer you go to the hospital for help not sit on your hands quibbling about "levels of faith". Despite our higher "level of faith", nigerians have a much shorter lifespan than the japanese. I believe in prayer of faith, i also believe God gave us medicine to be able to take informed decision such as the need to terminate ectopic pregnancies when it is CLEAR that the fetus will not be viable and will most likely lead to the death of the mother. |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by OLAADEGBU(m): 2:54am On Jan 04, 2014 |
100 years of silence?
|
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by OLAADEGBU(m): 3:37am On Jan 04, 2014 |
OLAADEGBU: Can you imagine how many babies this 180movie has saved? |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by Nobody: 9:31am On Jan 04, 2014 |
A bit of strength to start repeating some of the basic things I have said before and probably go into some details... davidylan: You said the above, not me! The case you have up there is quite unique and does not involve the deliberate killing of either of the twins. The death of one or more of them only occur indirectly because of the need to safeguard life and not destroy it. If for example the organs are distinct to each twin and the parents still decide to go ahead with an operation that directly kills either of them without trying to save at least both of them, then we have a case of direct killing which is wrong. Relating the above to what I have said before... In the case of ectopic pregnancies, any procedure that leads to the direct killing of a Child ('viable' that is) is wrong. davidylan: Yes, I do have something I want to tell you and your experts...First thoughts was to tell you guys that you are ignorant of the facts but on second thoughts, I would say: Tell your experts above that they are wrong. Some ectopic pregnancies have continued to term without losing either the life of the mother or child. Also tell them to see this case: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2008476/The-mother-risked-ectopic-baby.html davidylan: You have no experience so stop putting the whole experience thingy in our faces. Bring it up when you do get an ectopic pregnancy. |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by Nobody: 9:50am On Jan 04, 2014 |
davidylan: davidylan: davidylan: The case of tubal ectopic pregnancy have been discussed already. The problem with tubal ectopic pregnancy is the fallopian tube. The only remedy which does not entail abortion is removing the faulty tube. For non-tubal ectopic pregnancies, the baby may be attached to a pathological organ which is life threatening to the lady. In this case, it is appropriate for the lady to have such organs removed just as it would be removed if there is no child attached to it. This too does not include the direct killing of the child. However, for the other cases where the organ in question where the Child is attached to cannot be removed without necessarily killing the mother, the Child should be allowed to grow and let nature take its course. This is so far as the fetus is viable. |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by Nobody: 9:51am On Jan 04, 2014 |
davidylan: I am sure toluene12 can speak for him/herself. |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by Nobody: 10:18am On Jan 04, 2014 |
PAGAN 9JA: Can you elaborate on the point above? PAGAN 9JA: I am sure I need not ask the docs for your opinion. The question again: Can murder be the ONLY cause of action in any case? If yes, one example would do... PAGAN 9JA: Everyone is always free to make decisions for themselves. A murderer can decide to commit murder if he choose to. This does not mean that there won't be laws prohibiting murder. Similarly, despite what one decides to do, there should be laws prohibiting any form of abortion. PAGAN 9JA: That case was a rather sad one. The lady should have been alive today if the docs did what they are expected to do. Before you jump the gun, what was expected aint abortion. The pregnancy was not viable due to an infection the lady had. It is expected that the doctors treat the infection which ultimately will result in the death of the Child. This is permissible and different from killing the Child directly as you suggested. If an abortion was performed, it is probable that the cause of the lady's problem would still go untreated, hence another complication may arise. The solution is NOT abortion. PAGAN 9JA: You brought up the ish with developing humans. My response is meant to bring out the flaw in your argument. A two year old is a developing human being. What is applicable to a developing human being inside the womb should necessarily be the case for one outside the womb. PAGAN 9JA: I am sure you don't need me to tell you that I am talking about human life. |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by POPEII: 10:42am On Jan 04, 2014 |
OLAADEGBU:any argument should have stopped after this video. How can any sane person abort or defend abortion? |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by Nobody: 4:46pm On Jan 04, 2014 |
POPE II: any argument should have stopped after this video. How can any sane person abort or defend abortion? Perhaps if it is the difference between life and death? Perhaps if it has to do with rape to a minor/child? Has that ever occurred to you? |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by Nobody: 4:47pm On Jan 04, 2014 |
striktlymi: Those were BASIC FACTS a 10-yr old could easily pull up from the web. That you didnt know is further indictment that too many people are contributing on topics where they have not the first clue about what they are defending or talking about. Toluene12 wasnt stating some sacred facts. |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by Nobody: 4:55pm On Jan 04, 2014 |
striktlymi: I will refrain from stating my mind with regard to this post... however it is obvious you have no clue and are just arguing for the sake of it. Paragraph 1 - This is absurd. A tubal pregnancy means the fetus is developing IN the fallopian tube. How do you remove the "faulty" tube without an abortion? What if this is the woman's first pregnancy? Are you aware that the removal of even one of the tubes reduces her chance of ever having another child? Paragraph 2 - First this is an unserious point. I posted the statistics already, less than 2% of ectopic pregnancies are non-tubal so this point is mostly moot. If we remove the organ the fetus is attached to, that AUTOMATICALLY kills the fetus dummy since it requires a constant blood supply from the mother to survive. Hence it is impossible to just remove the organ without "directly killing the child". The most common sites of attachment are the ovaries, liver and abdominal wall. Asking that we remove the liver of the woman is senseless, we cannot just remove her abdominal wall either and for a woman with a first pregnancy... asking her to take out her ovaries is sheer wickedness. Paragraph 3 - Letting nature take its course because we cannot remove an organ involved in a non-tubal pregnancy is foolish. There have been only 4 cases of non-tubal pregnancies developing to term. That is a very very very tiny fraction of these pregnancies. In most cases, the mother is at risk of bleeding to death. But i guess that is ok with you since you never have to go through it anyway. Besides, the arguments in paragraph 2 and 3 make zero sense... we are speaking about less than 2% of all ectopic pregnancies here. |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by Nobody: 5:49pm On Jan 04, 2014 |
davidylan: Oh really?? That means you are better off debating with peeps less than ten years old considering that you admittedly can't do what a ten year old can: davidylan: Anyways, like I said, Toluene12 can speak for him/herself. PS: My debate with you is over. |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by Nobody: 6:02pm On Jan 04, 2014 |
striktlymi: Absurd. when you have no points left you devolve into nonsensical idiocy really. Toluene12 made a point that the chances of a viable fetus with ectopic pregnancies is about 1 to 1 million or less. I could not find a particular source for that figure (neither do i think toluene12 would have one at his fingertips) but it does not take rocket science to figure that out. In north america, 20 of every 1000 pregnancies is ectopic in nature. tubal pregnancies (which make up 99% of all ectopic pregnancy cases) are always non viable. If every other form of ectopic pregnancy is viable, that leaves only 1% of all ectopic pregnancy cases. You do the math... silly discussing with the uninformed really. Its easy to pontificate from your religious high throne, perhaps you should spare a thought for those who go through these medical issues. |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by Image123(m): 6:14pm On Jan 04, 2014 |
OLAADEGBU: Great one from Ray. Always an inspiration, thanks for sharing Ola. |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by Nobody: 6:17pm On Jan 04, 2014 |
Image123: Yea! The video was great! Nice one Ola! 1 Like |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by Image123(m): 6:46pm On Jan 04, 2014 |
davidylan: i asked for patience na. You are clearer now. i don't like to assume for people or put them in a particular worldview that they may not actually belong to. That's why i was cautious and asking for clarifications. abortion is murder (as you say), indeed as i say. i guess you are not able to say? If there is a thread supporting war here on NL, i do not mind being vociferous(whatever that means) against it. You seem to be over-assuming things. Not all soldiers are at war or go to war, why do you generalise them? If soldiers commit sin, they are sinners. Judgement may not be murder but capital punishment IS murder... i get tired of folks who want to worm their way out of uncomfortable positions by playing semantics with words. Do you or do you not consider capital punishment to be willfully taking a life similar to what happens with abortion?Capital punishment is not murder. Murder is a crime and illegal, capital punishment is for someone convicted of committing a crime punishable by capital punishment. i guess to you, once it comes out from the hen, its the same thing, shit or egg. I have been very clear that abortion should only be permitted in cases where the pregnancy is detrimental to the life of the mother... ectopic pregnancies and rape of a minor are two clear examples. i'm sorry you were not clear to me, wise one. When i'm not clear about something, i try to ask questions. Forgive me. So, you oppose abortion except in the case of ectopic pregnancies and in cases where the pregnancy is detrimental to the life of the mother? In the context of the topic (your question is worded deceptively), i choose abortion over certain death to the woman - that is the THIRD time i am having to answer that question. you are not answering my question. You are answering what you think is/should be my question. Here is my question again, If you ever had to choose between sin and death, which would you choose? Except you equate abortion to be sin. By the way, ectopic pregnancy is not certain death, you showed us that some people survived it? Please enough of this gullible nonsense. When you have cancer you go to the hospital for help not sit on your hands quibbling about "levels of faith". Despite our higher "level of faith", nigerians have a much shorter lifespan than the japanese. Nna gullible nonsense? i don suffer oh. Oga David, caring one. Please, let not your wrath be turned against me, for i do not recall being the cause of your wrath. i'm not against going to the hospital or using medicine. i thought i even said that already? i did not mention anybody or nation's higher levels of faith. i do not have such stats in my possession. There are certain levels of faith that are more than doctors' reports. There is what is still called miracle. There are humans still, who against hope believe in hope. They are called believers, evidently i think. Prayers do work, sorry, i have seen prayer work, and i trust you have too. i know you know so much doc, but i know that prayers work, and that faith is the evidence of things not seen. i do not think that is gullible nonsense. You cannot say that it is clear that a fetus will not be viable, when you gave us link that there are some people that gave birth with this same ectopic thing. What if they had aborted? Now, we have a very low percentage of pregnancies with the ectopic condition, so do not complain of the live birth cases being about less than 2% of all ectopic pregnancies. i asked if you are praying for me, as regards that prayer request that you gave me? Do you not care enough to pray for me? i covet your prayers, that was why i asked that you pray for me. You've taken time out of your very busied schedule of not contributing in this section, to teach us about ectopic pregnancies. Kindly take sometime to pray for me as regards that request, thanks. |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by Image123(m): 6:49pm On Jan 04, 2014 |
Oga strikly, i dey hail oh. Happy New Yearrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr and well done sir. |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by Nobody: 6:57pm On Jan 04, 2014 |
Image123: Oga strikly, i dey hail oh. Happy New Yearrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr and well done sir. Na me hail pass! Happy new year to you too boss! Well done! |
Re: Is Abortion Wrong In Cases Of Rape, Incest Or When The Mother's Life Is At Risk? by Nobody: 12:44am On Jan 05, 2014 |
Image123: You are all over the map here sorry to say. It was a really simple question - do you think murder as a result of war is sin? Image123: The definition of capital punishment states very clearly - the legally authorized killing of someone as punishment for a crime. I am not sure that we have the luxury of redefining stuff whenever it suits us... or do you excuse murder simply because the victim has committed a crime? Last i checked, the 6th commandment did not include a caveat, it simply says thou shalt not kill, period. So if you support capital punishment for a murderer, do you also consider yourself a sinner? Or is the 6th commandment applicable only in cases of abortion? Image123: Correct. Image123: The choice is death. However, as i said, your "question" automatically qualifies abortion (any form of it) as sin. That is false. Getting rid of a fetus that will not be viable either way and WILL lead to the death of the mother is NOT a sin. Getting rid of a fetus implanted in a minor as a result of violent rape is NOT sin. Just the same way you and your ilk do not label soldiers as sinner or judges who condemn murderers to death as sinners. Image123: Apparently you have not been paying attention. The only recorded cases (there have been less than 6 as far as i know) of viable ectopic pregnancies have been in cases of non-tubal ectopic pregnancies. These account for <2% of all cases of ectopic pregnancies. Tubal pregnancies (which make up 99% of all cases) are NON viable... it doesnt matter how much prayer you make. Image123: No problem. I will keep you in my prayers tonight and tomorrow for sure. Thanks. |
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