This is pure hypocricy on the part of the West. . . . the same West is shouting for Tibet to be given independence yet when a 'break-away' republic in one of their allies wants to leave, they cry foul. . . . people like Tayo-D buy all this propaganda hook, line and sinker without even examining the issues. . . . .there is a clear double standard when it comes to breaking up countries in Europe and breaking up countries in Africa. . . . . USSR made many mistakes putting the balkans together. . . Be it Kosovo, Montenegro, Croatia, Czech republic, Slovakia, Bosnia etc, they have been breaking themselves up into more cohesive units. . . . ARE THEY THE ONLY ONES WHO WANT TO LIVE IN PEACE?. . . . . . France and Britain made many mistakes in putting African countries together, but they will NEVER allow us to break up. Why?

WHY? WHY? WHY? WHY?

I am not a conspiracy theorist, nor am I a leftist - but I am also not blind. I see divide and conquer in serious action here.

In the history of Africa, only Ethiopia and Eritrea, North and South Rhodesia split - Europe has no interest or colonial history in Ethiopia and Rhodesia was controlled and broken up by Europeans.

Let my people go!

Georgia made a terrible mistake by trying to take control of South Ossetia when majority of the people there had Russian passports and Russia had 'peace keepers' there.

America could not have gotten involved because it would have escalated the war and added a new dimension to it. I don't think anyone wants that.

Bottom line is Russia is just a BULLY that is trying to terrorize its neighbours.

Ibime:

This is pure hypocricy on the part of the West. . . . the same West is shouting for Tibet to be given independence yet when a 'break-away' republic in one of their allies wants to leave, they cry foul. . . . people like Tayo-D buy all this propaganda hook, line and sinker without even examining the issues. . . . .there is a clear double standard

Even to the extent of trying to disrupt the Olympics. Their double standard don't have limit.
where is US now, are they not protecting their allies again? Now Georgia needs them Bush can only talk from his garden in white house.

i can see they r over fed

@Ibime,

people like Tayo-D buy all this propaganda hook, line and sinker without even examining the issues.

What issues are left out here. You did not respond to my earlier submission: "When and how should a limit be placed on secession"? So should SO allow others to break away from them assuming they also get their independence? Are we going to keep seceeding until every village becomes an independent country, and that will probably break down until each family is their own country.

While Europe is getting bigger, we are fighting to get smaller. I wonder who's thinking wrong here.

In any case, any fight for autonomy must be dealt with by each nation. The central govt has every right to tp prevent such happening even to the extent of using force. No outside party, including Russia in this case, should interfere. That is my point.

Tayo-D:

@Ibime,
What issues are left out here. You did not respond to my earlier submission: "When and how should a limit be placed on secession"? So should SO allow others to break away from them assuming they also get their independence? Are we going to keep seceeding until every village becomes an independent country, and that will probably break down until each family is their own country.

While Europe is getting bigger, we are fighting to get smaller. I wonder who's thinking wrong here.

In any case, any fight for autonomy must be dealt with by each nation. The central govt has every right to tp prevent such happening even to the extent of using force. No outside party, including Russia in this case, should interfere. That is my point.

I certainly do not agree . . . every nationality must have a right to autonomy.

Global observation

Guys! Guys!! We are witnessing the beginning of Global escalations into a Third World War.  It is written all over the UN actions or inactions over the past few years.  UN has no teeth to enforce its charters and the principles of universal protocols governing territorial and sovereign limitations.  The UN was created to be a fair and balanced broker in promoting peace and safety to humanity period!  

We must ask, peace and safety against who?  Who is out there with aggression and threat of annihilation against humanity?  Is it the Aliens from outer space; maybe the Africans are on the path of wiping out humanity with their spears and arrows; it could be the American Indians; or the Europeans, Americans, Soviets with their bombs and weapons of mass destruction?  So, over 60yrs since it was established, how has UN truly and effectively safeguarded humanity from the threats of mass destruction?  UN did not end colonialism, the individual colonies fought for their freedom; UN did not protect the rights of indigenous endowments and nature that its statutes demanded; UN did nothing to stall the dangers when Europe was selling soil-deplenishers, bagged deceptively as fertilizers and replenishers to African farmers; UN did not stop the aftermath when arable lands suddenly began turning into arid lands; UN did not stop the incursion of genetically modified foods into Africa; UN was created as an after thought coming out of German euthanasia of the Jews and the resulting Second World War, yet UN failed to stop Apartheid in South Africa and it has failed to stop the aggression of Israel against Palestines; it failed to stop America from waging an un provoked war against Iraq.  Can we depend on UN to prevent Iran from waging war against Israel? Can we depend on UN to stop Russia from violating the sovereignty of Georgia?  With the increasing tension and aggression all over the Globe, how much effectiveness does UN have to block the outburst and prevent a war?  If the answer is no, then humanity need to look for alternatives to UN.  
_______________________________________________________________

@Post,


Is there anyone in here that disagrees that Salaashnikov should be deposed?  Listen to what he said "this is not about Georgia, it's about America".    In diplomatic circles certain truths are best left to the imagination and should never be vocalized.  This is a fool and incompetent, he should be removed from power regardless if Russia do it or his own people vote him out.  In effect what he is saying is - I am not the one loosing here if Putin over runs my country, it is America!  Bush must face Putin and block him from overturning Amerivan interests in his backyard.  That is one of the worst statement a sovereign head of state can ever make, that is an insult to the ears and the brain - he should be removed by whatever means and replaced with someone competent in diplomatic protocols.  If Putin did not take over the country, then Bush need to replace Salaashnikov with a more sensible person that will not unecessarily provoke Putin insuch an open challenge.

Here is what is at stake:

1. The European Missile Defense project, led by America and sanctioned by EU is planned to be installed in one of former USSR member state.  Putin is vehemently against it.  

2. NATO is pushing to admit into its membership former USSR member states. So does the European Union.

4. There is a frontal ring around Russia from the West, it starts in Azerbaijan and wraps around them ending in Finland.  The plan is to limit Russia's influence as an effective global power by containing them behind a curtain and then using internal rebellion against the government to implode the leadership.

5. Oil.  Strategic pipelines that run through Azerbaijan, Armenia and into Turkey.  This was the reason behind USSR's failed invasion of Afghanistan back in the 80s.


My projection is that Putin is going to over run Tbilisi and install a government in there that is anti-West.  This will be his payback for the West's support of Kosovo breaking out of Serbia.  In addition, it will serve as deterrent to Ukraine, a former Soviet member state with a very ambitious leader.
If Putin were to occupy Georgia, there is nothing anyone can do to remove him.  Europe will not face him militarily, they have the power collectively to do it but the ruins and human suffering that will result will explode beyond the borders of Russia and Georgia and deep into the hearts of Europe and this alone is the deterrent for them not to take a military action against Russia.  America will definitely not do it; hell no!  But they will look for surrogates in Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Armenia and will supply materials to them to face Russia. Its a risk, a very big one!  If Russia defeats those states, it will seek to re-amalgamate them back into the old Soviet constituents.  China is ally with Russia.  Japan will not jump in unless their own territorial interest is under threat, other than that forget it.  UN, we already concluded that it is ineffective, it cannot do anything to block Putin.  So who can stop Putin from taking over Georgia?  Only Putin can stop himself now!

What are your projections and thoughts?  What can we expect out of this war?
________________________________________________________________

American Politics

If this war prolongs into the election months, I think it will help to boost McCain's credibility on American Foreign Policy and may catapult him ahead of Obama into the Oval Office.  I also think that at the convention the Democratic super delegates may take the war into equation in the way they vote.  Clinton backers were staunch veterans in foreign policy, especially against the former Soviet and they are very intimate with Putin back when he was a KGB operative.  Their presence in the Clinton's cabinet may be a better promise than Obama's foreign policy heads when it comes to executing policies and strategies to limit Russia's ambitions at expanision.

How do you project the outcomes and how the war may influence political decisions in America?

Tayo-D:


While Europe is getting bigger, we are fighting to get smaller. I wonder who's thinking wrong here.

This your argument is tired. . . . nobody is against forming economic union with the North. . . . but only AFTER the split. . . . Europe is still getting smaller even in this 21st century, you are here spouting fallacies. . . . when Europe is finished, you will still see Bosnia and Yugoslavia in the same European Union. . . . . even as Britain is part of Europe, a rising minority of Scots are clamouring for Independence. They already have devolution, different laws, different parliament. . . . . . so please stop all this nonsense argument about Africa getting smaller. . . . . it is not by force to live with the sons of Dan Fodio.

Ibime:

This your argument is tired. . . . nobody is against forming economic union with the North. . . . but only AFTER the split. . . . Europe is still getting smaller even in this 21st century, you are here spouting fallacies. . . . when Europe is finished, you will still see Bosnia and Yugoslavia in the same European Union. . . . . even as Britain is part of Europe, a rising minority of Scottish are clamouring for Independence. They already have devolution. . . . . . so please stop all this nonsense argument about Africa getting smaller. . . . . it is not by force to live with the sons of Dan Fodio.

Ibime for president!

Very enlightening contributions. I know better now cos I was initially against the Russians for attacking nearly-defenceless Georgia and killing innocent civilians. I just wish it didnt get this far. Glad there's a cease-fire so pple can rebuild their lives.

@Ibime,

it is not by force to live with the sons of Dan Fodio.

So after the Sons of Oduduwa are separated from the sons of Dan Fodio, who will keep the sons of Oduduwa from splitting along clan lines? Case in point - Ife and Modakeke!

You've still side-stepped my question - Where does it end?

@Davidylan,

I certainly do not agree . . . every nationality must have a right to autonomy.

Just as the President has every right to protect the territorial integrity of the nation which he swore to maintain.

Glad there's a cease-fire so people can rebuild their lives.

A ceasefire is not for people to "rebuild their lives".  It's for people to count the dead before a new killing spree begins.

'

Looking for someone or something to blame , hmm, hmm, yes! got it! AMERICA must be blamed for this mess.

Tayo-D:

@Davidylan,
Just as the President has every right to protect the territorial integrity of the nation which he swore to maintain.

South Ossetians do not want to be a part of Georgia . . . if the West was so adamant about defending Kosovo's right to secede from Serbia then why shld the SO case be different?

The president has no right to force separatists to be a part of his country. What else are referendums for?

If the US did not bastardize respect for international laws, a diplomatic effort could have prevented this. But the US has lost all moral authority and so Russia is making mincemeat of a US ally - no shaking, nothing dey happen!

davidylan:

South Ossetians do not want to be a part of Georgia . . . if the West was so adamant about defending Kosovo's right to secede from Serbia then why shld the SO case be different?

The president has no right to force separatists to be a part of his country. What else are referendums for?

Chineke God of Nazareth!

davidylan is yarning non-dust today! Thank God for His miracles! The rabbi has seen the light

@Davidylan,

South Ossetians do not want to be a part of Georgia . . . if the West was so adamant about defending Kosovo's right to secede from Serbia then why shld the SO case be different?

I am not trying to be particular here but to come up with modalities and principles that should guide any ethnic group to seek self-actualisation through self-governance. At what point does this fragmentation end?

The president has no right to force separatists to be a part of his country. What else are referendums for?

The Georgian Govt has set up modalities for negotiation with the Ossetians but those who are after an armed resistance are the root of the present conflict. Why should Russia support the armed resistance and not seek a diplomatic negotiation as Georgia has done? That should be the question.

War, God save mankind.
Russia, those that disintegrated you may be coming again in the voice of Georgia.

Seun:

A ceasefire is not for people to "rebuild their lives". It's for people to count the dead before a new killing spree begins.

Oh!!

Tayo-D:

Why should Russia support the armed resistance and not seek a diplomatic negotiation as Georgia has done?

As Georgia has done?. . . . lol. . . . . na when them see say power pass power, na im them want negotiate. . . . last week, they were busy making plans to crush South Ossetia. . . . look, this thing is simple. Russia want to make sure they crush all Georgia's military installations before they acquiesce to peacetalks. . . . . so that it will be long long time before Georgia phocks wit them again. . . . that is how these super powers operate. . . . when Georgia called for ceasefire, I told my friend it will take at least 3 days before Russia respond. . . . them gast show them small shege first . . . remember that they have to send a message to Azerbaijan and Ukraine as well as Western Europe, not to mess with their strategic interests. It's all a chess game.

RichyBlacK:

If the US did not bastardize respect for international laws, a diplomatic effort could have prevented this. But the US has lost all moral authority and so Russia is making mincemeat of a US ally - no shaking, nothing dey happen!

Look at this one's rank hypocrisy. If this was Israel or the US,he would be howling with rage about territorial sovereignty.

Only people who think that history started when they began watching CNN would think that US foreign policy is somewhat behind Russia's belligerence towards its neighbours. Long before the mythical demon,Bush,came into power,Russia has been attacking and slaughtering its neighbors whether in Ukraine, Belarus,Georgia,Hungary,Czechoslavakia,Tajikistan,Afghanistan;to name but a few.

For people who are talking about 'self-determination',the mother of all red-herrings;this conflict has nothing to do with Russia's regard for that concept. What did Russia do when Chechens wanted a free state?

the question is: how much of the agitations of Ossetians to break from Georgia is really from within and how much of it is being engineered by Russia to even scores?

newdeal:

the question is: how much of the agitations of Ossetians to break from Georgia is really from within and how much of it is being engineered by Russia to even scores?

We know that historically,Ossetians have never wanted to be part of Georgia but Ossetia is merely a distraction. Even Russia,officially regards South Ossetia as legitimately part of Georgia.

The conflict is not about self-determination. There are innumerable provinces in the South of Russia,especially in the Muslim regions of Russia,that have similarly been seeking to escape from Russia but Russia has responded with nothing but brute force.

newdeal:

the question is: how much of the agitations of Ossetians to break from Georgia is really from within and how much of it is being engineered by Russia to even scores?

Well, The Times did an article on it a few months back and the picture was clear that the South Osettians themselves wanted independence from Georgia.

Nobody is saying that Russia is clean. They still marginalise the Chechnyans and such. But I'm just happy for the Ossetians that they are getting their wish.

Ibime:

Well, The Times did an article on it a few months back and the picture was clear that the South Osettians themselves wanted independence from Georgia.

Nobody is saying that Russia is clean. They still marginalise the Chechnyans and such. But I'm just happy for the Ossetians that they are getting their wish.

Stop being a naif. This has nothing to do with self-determination and the South Ossetians are not going to come out of this whole debacle any better off in the long term.

The day your clueless Ijaw militants will want to try anything in Nigeria, your ''beloved'' Russia will be at the frontline in supplying weapons and even military personnel no matter the level of atrocities committed against civilians.

@Tayo d, exactly! at what point does the fragmentation ends?probably when every family becomes an independent state.I thought they fought together to gain their Independence?

"The people of Georgia US will stand by you" This was bush's words in 2005 in one of Georgians square.
Where is Bush and US today?

ONLY FOOLS DIE

presido1:

"The people of Georgia US will stand by you" This was bush's words in 2005 in one of Georgians square.
Where is Bush and US today?

ONLY FOOLS DIE

Even the Americans have just two legs. They cant stand in 20 places at once.

Russia was once aptly described as ''Burkina Faso with nuclear weapons''. Not too long ago,it was going cap in hand to beg the West for money. Now,with oil prices at over a $100 p/b,it has sought to reassert itself by bombing ''Mickey Mouse' nationalities like Georgians and Chechens.

In the long term,unless it does something about its demographic(its non-Muslim population is shrinking at the same time that its Muslim population is increasing),it's still a nation in terminal decline.

davidylan:

Even the Americans have just two legs. They can't stand in 20 places at once.

Remember that statement was made in 2005.

4 Play:

The day your clueless Ijaw militants will want to try anything in Nigeria, your ''beloved'' Russia will be at the frontline in supplying weapons and even military personnel no matter the level of atrocities committed against civilians.

bros, wetin Ijaw man do you na?

Stalin deliberately gave Ossetia and Abzhakia to Georgia so they could provide some instability to the Georgians, although Stalin was Georgian himself. Typical divide and rule strategy. Everyone knows Russia don't really give a phok about Ossetia's 'self determination' - they just want to send a message to NATO to stay clear of the Caucuses because Georgia was going to join NATO - something NATO cannot afford now as it is legally obliged to defend all it's member states.