debosky « #433 on: August 03, 2006, at 06:13:30 PM » coming back to topic, the jews have stated time withiout number 'every lebanese woman and child that dies is considered a terrible tradgedy'

Debosky ~ Compare what you said above to what the Yesha Rabbinical Council says:

The Yesha Rabbinical Council announced in response to an IDF attack in Kfar Qanna that "according to Jewish law, during a time of battle and war, there is no such term as 'innocents' of the enemy."

[url]http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/1,7340,L-3283720,00.html[/url]

As far as Israel is concerned, all civilians are legitimate targets. So who is pumping this crap in your head? Where are you getting your info from? CNN, Fox, or BBC? How can we grow as a nation when someone like you is arguing blindly, and very parochial? You remind me of Texazzpete. No wonder Naija is in trouble as a nation. You don't have mind of your own? Just gullible to anything packaged to you as news, without reasoning?

Read these two links below. And I expect you to critique each. Is not a matter of glancing through.

http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a2449.htm#001

Another important link here:

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/13trindx.htm

@ debosky

Hiroshima and Nagasaki -total death of roughly 200,000 (japanese) to stop other killings.

what sarcrifice?

@Nilla & Medube,

Honestly, you are wasting your time arguing with Davidylan and Mariory because they will never allow the hate they have for muslims and blind and total support for US and Israel to see things the way they really are.

I believe every country should be allowed to own weapons including weapons of mass destructions if a single country thinks it has the right to own one.

Either the whole world rid itself of nuclear weapons or let countries acquire them, at least that is why we have seen relative peace between India and Pakistan since they both joined the nuclear race in less than 2 weeks sometime in 2000.

As for the Palestinian Israeli issue, the problem will reduce when Palestine is granted statehood and then they will have the right to acquire weapons legally and if they choose to fight it will be a fair fight, not suicide bombers vs well equipped army.

You can never have peace without justice and fairplay.

kabiyesi:

As far as Israel is concerned, all civilians are legitimate targets. So who is pumping this crap in your head? Where are you getting your info from? CNN, Fox, or BBC? How can we grow as a nation when someone like you is arguing blindly, and very parochial? You remind me of Texazzpete. No wonder Naija is in trouble as a nation. You don't have mind of your own? Just gullible to anything packaged to you as news, without reasoning?

You are a lair. The Yesha Rabbinical Council does not control Israeli national or foreign policy. There are extremists in every society of the world. The difference is this extremist group does not kidnap people, or send suicide bombers into buses to blow people up.

So what's your point here?

Israel = WANTS TO EXIST IN PEACE. (Official policy)
Iran = WANTS ISRAEL TO BE ELIMINATED. (Official policy)

Who is the aggressor here?

The chicken is surely coming home to roost.

First, Davidylan stated that he does not support the killing of innocent ones. A statement that is confusing coming from someone that states he does not care if Israel blows Lebanon away.

Second, Mariory now admits that we have extremists everywhere while trying to justify a statement about Israel not giving a damn about civilian targets.

Common sense should have made it clear to the writer that in the same vein it is not everyone in Iran (even with the statement the president made) that wants Israel wiped out just as it is not everyone in Israel that agrees that civilians are legitimate targets.

If only people would have the patience to think through their positions without rushing to the keyboard.

This thread is really worth the time spent on it as it has shown us what the typical Nigerian can do in any given circumstance.

He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool but he who knows not but knows that he knows not is a wise man.

Davidylan and Mariory, it is not too late to stand by the truth, stop playing politics with other peoples lives based on their race and religion.

I hope you two get to learn a thing or two from your participation here.

What really amounts to collateral damage?

I needed to bring this issue up again as it seems the killing of innocent civilians now amounts to collateral damage.

But my question is this, would the world accept that those killed by suicide bombers are as a result of collateral damage since it could be argued that the suicide bombers do not know the targets one on one and that they were interested in destroying say the supermarket, the bus or a market?

Infact, the 911 incident comes to mind in this regard. Plane hijackers seized and flew airplanes into the WTC, Pentagon and an ill fated one headed for the White House.

Is it not correct to say that all those that died on that day were victims of circumstances and that the hijackers were only interested in destroying the structures and not killing the people. In fact they may only be guilty of taking their own lives and those on the airplanes they hijacked.

Trying to see if theories that are applied when arab targets are the issues will readily be applied when Western or Israeli targets are the issues.

NB. Those that cannot think critically or see in 3 dimensions should please read and move on rather than attempt to muddle things up on the issues raised as regards collateral damage, thank you.

@Afam
You remember when I referred to you as a retard? I take it back. You are a new breed, some form of Super Retard. If you pull your head out of your ass and check back through the pages of this thread, you will find that I have already made that comment before.

Seriously, stop wading around in the dark and bumping your head continously.

Me? Go back to check your posts? I am not that crazy. I simply saw the one I referenced because the post was short.

The last time I read a long post by you, I nearly cried for you for displaying such a low level of understanding of the issues on ground.

I will rather count the number of white vehicles that pass the road than go search for something you claimed you had stated earlier.

I am sure you won't be able to find what you claimed you stated if asked to do so because you have stated a lot of rubbish on this forum that you will find it difficult to even recall your own statements.

You know Afam, they say ignorance is bliss. Enjoy your stupidity.

Afam:

@Nilla & Medube,

Honestly, you are wasting your time arguing with Davidylan and Mariory because they will never allow the hate they have for muslims and blind and total support for US and Israel to see things the way they really are.

I believe every country should be allowed to own weapons including weapons of mass destructions if a single country thinks it has the right to own one.

Either the whole world rid itself of nuclear weapons or let countries acquire them, at least that is why we have seen relative peace between India and Pakistan since they both joined the nuclear race in less than 2 weeks sometime in 2000.

As for the Palestinian Israeli issue, the problem will reduce when Palestine is granted statehood and then they will have the right to acquire weapons legally and if they choose to fight it will be a fair fight, not suicide bombers vs well equipped army.

You can never have peace without justice and fairplay.

God bless you!
every single word in this quote is objective and right on. exactly the points i've been trying to make on 3 threads about this issue. thanx for stating it so plainly for even MEGA RETARDS to understand.

@ Afam,

Now I have the time. When I don't i wont argue so much

I just hope that this present generation of Naija is not a wasted one. If one could be more Israeli than an Israeli, it means one could be more Christian than a Pope. When a problem occurs, common sense dictates that a root cause analysis needs to be done. Who were the terrorists? Here is the UN report of 1948, and scroll thru the list:

http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a1973.htm#002

This information is compiled from reports of the US Department of State, the British Foreign Office and various American and British press services.

Mariory Today at 05:16:26 AM
You are a lair. The Yesha Rabbinical Council does not control Israeli national or foreign policy. There are extremists in every society of the world. The difference is this extremist group does not kidnap people, or send suicide bombers into buses to blow people up.

I was astonished when a fellow Naija embellishes his stupendous idiocy on the world wide web. What a congenital folly. It shows this fool of a man does not know the politics of Israel or the institution of the Rabbinical Council. Ben Gurion, Golda Meir, Menachem Begin, Yitzhak Rabin 'll be rolling inside their respective grave. What a public disgrace. Is like saying a fatwa from an Ayatollah is irrelevant to Shiites.

The way the Isreali supporters hear are passionately supporting is as if they are being paid or they are also citizens of Israel.

i once said that.


its nice to see someone else saying this

kabiyesi:

I just hope that this present generation of Naija is not a wasted one. If one could be more Israeli than an Israeli, it means one could be more Christian than a Pope.

nilla ~ One should never trust the media. They are part of the problem, too one sided. There are two sides to a story. For someone to act certain way, there needs to be a reason. The media feed on the ignorance of many, as indicated here:

"Our job is to give people not what they want, but what we decide they ought to have."
~ Richard Salent, Former President of CBS News

Afam:

What really amounts to collateral damage?

I needed to bring this issue up again as it seems the killing of innocent civilians now amounts to collateral damage.

But my question is this, would the world accept that those killed by suicide bombers are as a result of collateral damage since it could be argued that the suicide bombers do not know the targets one on one and that they were interested in destroying say the supermarket, the bus or a market?

Infact, the 911 incident comes to mind in this regard. Plane hijackers seized and flew airplanes into the WTC, Pentagon and an ill fated one headed for the White House.

Is it not correct to say that all those that died on that day were victims of circumstances and that the hijackers were only interested in destroying the structures and not killing the people. In fact they may only be guilty of taking their own lives and those on the airplanes they hijacked.

Trying to see if theories that are applied when arab targets are the issues will readily be applied when Western or Israeli targets are the issues.

NB. Those that cannot think critically or see in 3 dimensions should please read and move on rather than attempt to muddle things up on the issues raised as regards collateral damage, thank you.

And what do you regard as Isreal's killing of 54 in Qana while trying to blow up a building they thought was inhabited by Hizbollah terrorists?
Honestly your argument here makes me want to really puke. Try saying this to the average American and see the kind of rebuttal you'd be sure to recieve. How can you sit there in Lagos and say it was collateral damage? So the suicide bombers only meant to destroy the twin towers and not kill the people inside? At about 9am on the morning of a business day in NYC? Are you thinking at all?

Your recent comments just show how low people can get trying to defend the indefensible. It's sad that so many people are trying so hard to portray themselves as "equally knowledgeable" but end up making a fool of themselves.
3000 innocent lives taken in one morning amounts to collateral damage? Why didnt you come here and say that when Moussaoiu was standing trial for the same offfence?
Illiterate! The ability to surf the internet is not the same as intelligence! I do not mince words that i dislike Arabs, but why do i? Is it because of the religion? No! I've had numerous muslim friends whom i visited regularly on salah day to have fun with. I dislike those who do not recognise the sanctity of human life, those who use their civilians as human shields and rejoice at the death of an Isreali or American!

Some are advocating that countries like Palestine, Syria and Iran should be allowed to possess nuclear weapons in a warped idea of justice and fairplay, so that the next war would be a "fair fight". I look forward to such a day and will be pleasantly waiting to see the reactions of such buffoons advocating such tomfoolery.
Sit there in Lagos making so much noise Afam, its not your fault. You dont have to have train systems shut down, longer searches and tighter regulations at airports all because of the fear of suicide bombers like we face here everyday. You dont have to think twice about opening your mail to check for anthrax. Dont worry, as long as you remain in Nigeria, you wont have to say daily prayers anytime you board an aircraft in the states, you wont be looking suspiciously at the bearded man next to you or spend the whole flight with one eye open!

Stay there saying nonsense, since it is "fair" for hizbollah to have WMD, methinks its time MEND got herself some missiles too. Maybe when she starts shelling Lagos, idiots like you will sit up and take notice! Until then keep running your mouth!

@Davidylan,

Common sense they say is not common. What's your point? Did I touch something that hurt you?

So it is all about selfishness? So, because you wait hours at train stations other innocent people can be blown away to pieces?

You are a total waste of resources, any money spent in training you should have been used to feed a monkey in any zoo.

Yes, I am in support of MEND acquiring any weapons as long as they are fighting a just fight. It is people like you that do not see anything wrong in anything unless you are directly affected by such things.

I am on my knees begging you, stop exposing your low level of reasoning. So, you believe Qana is collateral damage and WTC is not? Let me have your reasons (if any).

That I should say that to the American? What for? I care less if you sweep their roads or wash their plates over there, I am discussing issues that cut across regions, countries, religions etc.

Why are you people making Israeli/lebanese Problems personal. If only you made so much noise when soldiers burnt down odi or when Hausas slaughter igbo's. There are bigger problems at our doorsteps. State what you have to state and move on there is no need calling another person a retard

Afam:

@Davidylan,

Common sense they say is not common. What's your point? Did I touch something that hurt you?

So it is all about selfishness? So, because you wait hours at train stations other innocent people can be blown away to pieces?

You are a total waste of resources, any money spent in training you should have been used to feed a monkey in any zoo.

Yes, I am in support of MEND acquiring any weapons as long as they are fighting a just fight. It is people like you that do not see anything wrong in anything unless you are directly affected by such things.

I am on my knees begging you, stop exposing your low level of reasoning. So, you believe Qana is collateral damage and WTC is not? Let me have your reasons (if any).

That I should say that to the American? What for? I care less if you sweep their roads or wash their plates over there, I am discussing issues that cut across regions, countries, religions etc.

Indeed thou art very right. common sense is not common afterall! lol

who said Qana was collateral damage? I was only reacting to your foolish assertion that WTC should be regarded as collateral damage and that the suicide bombers are not guilty of any death but theirs and those on board the flights they crashed! Shallow reasoning i must say! I do not believe Qana is collateral damage, i only used that as an example of how foolish your assertion is that WTC was and should be regarded as "whateveryoucallit" damage. IT is your shallow reasoning that was exposed there not mine. Sorry sir, stop wasting space exposing crass ignorance and a gross inability to comprehend obvious material!
The money used to train me? I wont even comment on that because it seems someone earlier on realised how stupid it would be to train you.

No sir! this is not about selfishness dear! Read and assimilate first before hyperventilating! We are not interested in anyone killing another, what a world it would be if we could all live in peace but alas thanks to our Arab brothers, that reality has eluded us for ages. If Isreal's bombardment will save us the pain of having to go through another WTC sept 11, so be it!

@ Zebudaya

One would think some people have learnt from history, alas they don't. As long as the likes of Afam think they can use foul language to force their horrendous oppinions down the throats of others in the name of their "superior" intellectual capability, they will continue to recieve the wrong end of my stick. Thanks.

Afam:

@Davidylan,
That I should say that to the American? What for? I care less if you sweep their roads or wash their plates over there, I am discussing issues that cut across regions, countries, religions etc.

Dear sir! No i do not wash plates neither do i sweepp roads, i go to grad school free of charge and i get paid for doing so!

When you start discussing "issues" then i would reply to you as a mature individual, but till then you continue to strike me as a deluded illiterate who just wants to prove "i too know something".

@ nilla 2million japanese soldiers were killed in WW2 lets not even count civillians, 7million chinese and 4million indonesians were killed by the japanese in a period of 2-3 years

if 200,000 deaths (all death is regrettable to me) will prevent the death of 2million people it is a sacrifice well worth it in my opinion.

Israel is willing to let palestine be a state, they pulled out of gaza unilaterally - i.e even when an agreement had not been reached, what was the result? hamas goes in and kidnaps an israeli soldier. you guys can blame everything on israel as much as you want. the fact of the matter is these people do not want peace unless it means the destruction of israel.

as an aside

Afam and kabiyesi please stick to the issues and don't attack personalities, we are all trying to learn and share ideas here, not insult each other.

concerning the 'collateral damage' issue israel has admitted that they did NOT intend to kill the civillians, they have stated that if their intel reports had shown that there were that many civillians in there the attack probably wd not have taken place. they admit it was a mistake

to compare that to the WTC is totally apalling, the intention of the osama and co WAS to kill civillians, was to destroy and was to strike fear, do you think Osama will ever say they made a mistake in taking down the twin towers or killing the civillians there?

the israelis do not intend to kill civillians and apologise for doing so, that alone destroys your comparison of Qana to WTC

I just read a report a few minutes ago that Iran will soon be supplying Hizbollah, more modern Iranian and Russian SAMs, they will also be sending ant-tank and anti-aircraft missiles to boost the Islamic revolution against Isreal.
Are these the people that are interested in peace? Are these the souls we should ascribe their deliberate dastardly acts to mere collateral damage?

The main aim for Isreal imposing a naval, sea and air blockade is to prevent the re-arming of Hizbollah via Iran and Syria. These are the stuff people should read before going off tangent over "innocent civilians". Shiites in Baghdad today were seen chanting "death to Isreal" and marching in solidarity with the lebanese dead, here are people who have a daily death toll of over 100 and are slowly on the precipice of civil war! Yet no one seems to be bothered, rather the world and the likes of Nina and Afam are stuck showing "concern" to 54 human shields accidentally killed while targeting hizbollah rocket launchers.

I like to read good discussions and I hate it when it turns into name calling.

On saying that, I have to point something out. Afam, please kindly don't say that 9/11 was meant to destroy WTC. Please, that is a big insult to the average American. If they were so interesting in destroying the buildings, I am sure, they'll have come on a Saturday or better yet on a public holiday. It saddens my heart to limit 3000 human beings to just "collateral damage".

Also, not everyone in America, sweeps or washes plate. Maybe those that came here, out of greediness. Just my two cents.

Thanks to all u contributors. Definitely learning a thing or two.

Hello friends

I went to bed, got up and went to work and now I' back here Now during this period, Israel had hit 2 bridges in the Northern Part of Lebanon which is predominantly Christians and now I ask my brothers @davidylan, @debosky, @zebudaya, etc, knowing you have your facts, have you heard that hezbollah hides amongst the Christians as well?

Now these are a few points I will like to put through please feel free to argue unbiasely:

1. If te so called Land of the Free America are have been fighting to eradicate terrorism and so called rebels or freedom fighters, how come they have gone to rid Sri Lanka of the Tamil Tigers, Spain of the Basque Movement, Congo of their rebels, Terrorist groups in Algeria, etc? Why such the interest always for the Middle East?

2. Someone mentioned earlier in this thread stupidly that America was the reason the Blacks were free, I guess thats why places that were affected by the hurricanes got the rapid and effective responses Iraq got?

3. How come America was so eager to spend Billions of $$$ to help "the poor Iraqis who have been suffering" under Saddam yet spend chicken change if at all on helping children dying in Africa from either Aids or hunger?

4. How come when they want to carry out an action that favors them, the UN becomes the most powerful and final word in the World, but when not in favor, the UN can do no more effect than a small child shouting at his parent?

5. They are good in preaching Democracy and the words of freedom, yet because they need a country to operate from to invade Afghanistan, Gen. Musharraf is a close ally and is allowed to own Weapons of Mass Destruction alongside with India even if they threaten to use it on each other day by day. As long as the we have no oil there, go f**k yourselves for all we care,

6. Talk about using chemical wepaons, does any of you actually know what America was using the first Gulf War?

7. Iraq invades Kuwait, lets help them? Who are you? When 2 brothers who are neghbours on a street are fighting, who is a stranger to use force to remove one from the other?

Someone said here that Israel could actually nuke out Hezbollah. Whether you like it or not, the power of Israel comes from the US even up to this moment as we speak, they are supplying them weapons for the war. The only reason America cannot do shit with Iran is beacuse Russia is behind them. Did any of you read few months back when Israel tested a long range missile with US scientist, Russian scientists quickly went to Iran and iran tested theirs. So whether you are here arguing that its right or now, we are all puppets of the big nations and they move us as they wish, which I do not accept.
I will tell you as far as I am concerned the United State's foreign policy sucks. The EU could have been an organisation to contend with if not that George Bush has one of his puppies living in 10 Downing Street. Fortunately, the people of the UK have started rising up against being more or less an asslicker to the US. This world is like a Command Conquer played between friends over a network. Each person has a right to move and see who commands and conquers the most.

Let it be. Just as the great egyptians, romans, british, germans, all came and fell, so shall it be one day

Bhola:

I like to read good discussions and I hate it when it turns into name calling.

On saying that, I have to point something out. Afam, please kindly don't say that 9/11 was meant to destroy WTC. Please, that is a big insult to the average American. If they were so interesting in destroying the buildings, I am sure, they'll have come on a Saturday or better yet on a public holiday. It saddens my heart to limit 3000 human beings to just "collateral damage".

Also, not everyone in America, sweeps or washes plate. Maybe those that came here, out of greediness. Just my two cents.

Thanks to all u contributors. Definitely learning a thing or two.

Lets not say that they had a hand in blowing it up but lets ask ourselves how 3 planes left US airports, changed course and hit targets, without their so fantastic superior power doing anything, kind of odd isnt it? Can i come to your house and steal without having an inside informant? Afterall, when a robbery happens in your house and the police get involved, your staff are always the first suspects am i wrong?

If on my way to work i see halle berry on the street with a sprained ankle, I would massage her feet and take her to the hospital, I would risk going to work late, if i see an average/ugly chick with sprained ankle i would run over and try to help then call the ambulance and go to work. Hope you get my point everybody has an agenda that fufills their own self-interests. Nobody said America is the Kingdom of Heaven or the Red Cross but for now I support America and Israel in their wars against Muslim fundamentalists and extremists wherever they may be.

About your suspecting America about 9-11 are you saying terrorists are incapable of planning and executing their plans without outside help? you underate this people they are not even scared to die, what else are they scared off?

LOL
zedudaya if u see me injured i know u wont even stop at all

Abeg sofry sofry o
Fight no good o !

toshmann:

LOL
zedudaya if u see me injured i know u wont even stop at all

Oh boy toshmann if i see you , I give you a swift kick, and tell you to walk it off .

this is funny. please u guys shouldnt fight. im supporting davidlyn and debosky in this one cuzz they have strong facts.

medube you of all people should know that your interests guides your actions, that is human nature

1. the interest of the US in the middle east is 2-fold

A the large and highly influential jewish comunity in the US

B the strategic oil resources in the mid east

I wil not try to justify these actions, i am stating mere facts

2. I will not even go there, domestic/administrative ineptitude concerning katrina and supposedly 'effective' Iraq responses (a children's hospital in basra that was sposed to take 1 year is still not completed 2 years later, very effective eh?) are two different issues altogether.


3. again see reasons in number 1 the US is as interested in their own benefits as the next guy, expect no altruistic actions

4.because the UN is a faulty organization giving undue powers to 5 veto wielding nations, open to manipulation and with a weak structure and no means of enforcing its mandate. reform the UN and maybe we'll have less of that

5. the reason pakistan is 'allowed' as you put it is because the pakistanis developed their weapons largely without US knowledge that is why they were shocked in 1998 when the tests were carried out leading to both india and iran being sanctioned, besides pakistan never signed the NPT, unlike iran which is trying to reneg on its own word. in furtherance of not allowing such weapons to fall into wrong hands (people who want to use it against US interests) the US befriends pakistan. simple logic

6. iran and iraq used them too, even russia has used it before. what is the point of this?

7.there is an international system in place, the world body (UN) - of which iraq and kuwait are members condemned the invasion and authorised the coalition forces led by the US to drive saddam out.

the world system is being manipulated by a few to their own liking, but that should not stop us from seeing evil and condemning it.

debosky:

4.because the UN is a faulty organization giving undue powers to 5 veto wielding nations, open to manipulation and with a weak structure and no means of enforcing its mandate. reform the UN and maybe we'll have less of that

since one or more out of the 5 would never let it function well, thats why people in other countries (excluding the 5 permanent members) should learn to think for themselves. If they all decide they will leave the UN unless the # of permanent members are increased (inlcuding an african one preferable Nigeria {South africa has whites} and an Arab one), trust me the 5 members will have to do sth about it. unless they want a UN with just 5 members.

debosky:

@ nilla 2million japanese soldiers were killed in WW2 lets not even count civillians, 7million chinese and 4million indonesians were killed by the japanese in a period of 2-3 years

if 200,000 deaths (all death is regrettable to me) will prevent the death of 2million people it is a sacrifice well worth it in my opinion.

For me thats not a well worth sacrifice. Do you Know people are still dying from the after effects. And generations and generations of those people have to be watched to see the effect on the genetics of these people.
But my point is you use what you have right. thats why people shouldn't have it (WMD). If some have it all should have it. then everybody will think well before doing or talking trash.

how do you stop someone who hates you from getting something to destroy you? if ther is no way of enforcing a decision you will never have agreement.

besides i believe enough people have it to prevent just anybody from talking trash,

to let it slip into hands of people like iran will only worsen the current poblems, bcoz they will give it to someone like hisbollah/alqaida to use it against israel/us or any other country, then who would you attack in return? since hisbollah is not a country, innocents will suffer even more than they are doing today. so everybody having it will not solve the problem.


maybe 200,000 lives is more valuable than 7-8million lives to you i don't know but the war would have raged on for years and countless millions would still have been killed. i don't like any death, but if the death of some will prevent the death of countless others it is a bitter but better alternative to take