A man who's proposing marriage to a sister in hijab, how much of her is he allowed to see? The face alone, the face and hands? And under what conditions? Both of them alone? In the presence of her mahram?
I brought up this topic because of the way this issue is being taken these days, where we have a brother asking the sister he intends to marry to remove the hijab completely, is this right?

@zahyal

i think the laws of Islam on lowering our gaze on someone we are not yet married to still applies. Whether intending or not.

@Cayon

Why didnt u start a new thread for this, even though the first joke made me laff

A man who's proposing marriage to a sister in hijab, how much of her is he allowed to see?

As long the woman agree.

The face alone, the face and hands?

The face is the most important part on this issue to recognize her personal appearance and be familiarize to have a nice dialogue on both sides.

And under what conditions?

If both parties agree

Both of them alone? In the presence of her mahram?

Not so, there must be a party on both sides

I brought up this topic because of the way this issue is being taken these days, where we have a brother asking the sister he intends to marry to remove the hijab completely, is this right?

This might be right that both parties agree to see their daughter in person. It is not noteworthy to marry a woman without seeing her face or talk her.

Thanks for your response, Samba.

More responses will be appreciated, especially with back ups from the Quran and sunnah.

zayhal:

A man who's proposing marriage to a sister in hijab, how much of her is he allowed to see? The face alone, the face and hands? And under what conditions? Both of them alone? In the presence of her mahram?
I brought up this topic because of the way this issue is being taken these days, where we have a brother asking the sister he intends to marry to remove the hijab completely, is this right?

Allah says in Surat-un Nur ", and not to reveal their adornments except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husband's sons, their brothers or their brother's sons, or their sister's sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islaam), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allaah to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful." Quran chapter 24:Verses 30-31.

The Muslim woman is allowed only to expose her face,hands and feet.
All other parts of her body should be covered.

I think the man is only allowed to see some parts of the lady's arms and not her entire Awrah.
This should be done with close supervision.
However,if he has a sister she could help in this instance to avoid temptations that can be avoided.

The Holy Prophet SAW also said this about indecent dressing:
"Two types of people from the inhabitants of hellfire i have not yet seen: Women covered yet uncovered when they walk they swing their sides/hips, upon their heads resemble the humps of camels they will not enter al jannah nor will they find its scent,……

mybad:

Allah says in Surat-un Nur ", and not to reveal their adornments except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husband's sons, their brothers or their brother's sons, or their sister's sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islaam), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allaah to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful." Quran chapter 24:Verses 30-31.

The Muslim woman is allowed only to expose her face,hands and feet.
All other parts of her body should be covered.

I think the man is only allowed to see some parts of the lady's arms and not her entire Awrah.
This should be done with close supervision.
However,if he has a sister she could help in this instance to avoid temptations that can be avoided.

The Holy Prophet SAW also said this about indecent dressing:
"Two types of people from the inhabitants of hellfire i have not yet seen: Women covered yet uncovered when they walk they swing their sides/hips, upon their heads resemble the humps of camels they will not enter al jannah nor will they find its scent,……

Jazakumullah khayran
But are you sure the feet are included in those parts that could be seen by nonmahram, any evidence to justify this?

The man should only see her face,hands and feet.

@shegirl
what is/are your evidence for this?

I think am enjoying this thread!

zayhal:

Jazakumullah khayran
But are you sure the feet are included in those parts that could be seen by nonmahram, any evidence to justify this?

Ok,Agreed!

With Mahram men,its the face,hands and feet while with non Mahram men it's just the face and hands.

NOTE: A mahram is a man related to the woman through blood, marriage or breastfeeding and whom she can't ever marry. The scholars agree that a woman is able to uncover her hair, face arms, hands and legs from below the knee and feet in front of her mahrams.

ok, what about a munaqabah, a sister in veil, does she have to unveil for a prospective husband? What if the sister doesn't feel comfortable unveiling?

zayhal:

ok, what about a munaqabah, a sister in veil, does she have to unveil for a prospective husband? What if the sister doesn't feel comfortable unveiling?

It is not proper for the Munaqabah to unveil herself for a suitor.
One would wonder how many suitors she'll have to unveil for before she eventually settles for a husband.

The truth is that with both sexes assurance needs be sought in all aspects concerning the other party.
Even the munaqabah would want to have a good look at her intending suitor except for morals.

However, bearing in mind the stipulations of Islam concerning the Awrah of a muslimah.
It wouldn't make sense for us to drop our clothing at every provocation.

mybad:

It is not proper for the Munaqabah to unveil herself for a suitor.
One would wonder how many suitors she'll have to unveil for before she eventually settles for a husband.

But Rasullulah (SAw) advised the man who's seeking a wife to "look at her very well", what is there to look at if the veil is uncovered?
Pls don't get bored with my questions. It's for a purpose and a good one too.

zayhal:

But Rasullulah (SAw) advised the man who's seeking a wife to "look at her very well", what is there to look at if the veil is uncovered?
please don't get bored with my questions. It's for a purpose and a good one too.

@zayhal

Why not help provide an answer to that question.
We cannot discard the dictates of the glorious Quran or the teachings of the noble Prophet when it comes to issues like this.

"Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them. Lo! Allah is Aware of what they do. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest." (An-Nur: 30-31)

What do you suggest we do when faced with situations like this one?

« #12 on: Yesterday at 03:39:25 PM »
Quote from: mybad on Yesterday at 01:46:02 PM
It is not proper for the Munaqabah to unveil herself for a suitor.
One would wonder how many suitors she'll have to unveil for before she eventually settles for a husband.

A woman should not unveil to a suitor, the moment he announces his intention. There should not be a "no unveiling" even if the date for Nikah is set. I think there are would come a time in the premarriage period that the request for a "unveil" should not be considered to be out of question. I think a man who wants to see his future wife's hairs, without touching it, in the presence of the "Wali," should not be surprising demand, especially if the date for the marriage have been set.

But of course all thats are of physical attributes that each wants must be discussed and settled between them, in the earlier states, well before the date for marriage was set and a necessary request by the male to see if his future wife's hairs is as long as she has d told him. It is a matter of honesty, first and less of cosmetic. At least he wants his heart to be settled with it.

But Rasullulah (SAw) advised the man who's seeking a wife to "look at her very well", what is there to look at if the veil is uncovered?
please don't get bored with my questions. It's for a purpose and a good one too.

If the prophet (as) advised to look it means that it is essential to be happy and satisfied with the choice. It goes to the the meat of the issue. Allah Messenger (AS) is the only one, among mankind who knows the full meaning of any and all verses of the Qur'an. Allah says believers should take what Muhammad gives and rejects what he forbids.

If he did not disallow suitors taking a "look well" about the other, then there is nothing wrong with it, as long it is done in proper and adequate settings: Muharam is always present between the two, and there is no chance for a possible Zina condition.



@mybad « #13 on: Today at 01:22:32 PM »

please don't get bored with my questions. It's for a purpose and a good one too.


@zayhal

Why not help provide an answer to that question.
We cannot discard the dictates of the glorious Quran or the teachings of the noble Prophet when it comes to issues like this.

"Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them. Lo! Allah is Aware of what they do. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest." (An-Nur: 30-31)

In every situation of Islam there are sets of rules and conditions that must be present. For example: A woman in menstruation can not enter masjid in normal conditions. We already know that she can not pray. But on the occasion of salatul Ids, she can.

When a man who is almost the husband of a woman wants to see enough, like the long and thick and luscious hair of his almost wife, after the date of marriage was set, I do hope it is not haram at that time, if the Muharam was there to be sure that nothing else came off except to expose the hair, in order that the heart of the husband is at least, sinc this is what the wife told him. It is purer for the future husband not to demand to see anything, taking her words for it, which they must have settles and agreed upon all the essential "qualities and qantitification" of each person, aforehand.

It is natural that they may begin to behave in a 'normal" way, more cordial around each other than when they just saw each other, as the day of marriage is getting close.

For a man who loves good teech and non smelly mouth, it will not be difficult to ask about this things: cavities, etc.

mybad:

@zayhal

Why not help provide an answer to that question.
We cannot discard the dictates of the glorious Quran or the teachings of the noble Prophet when it comes to issues like this.

"Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them. Lo! Allah is Aware of what they do. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest." (An-Nur: 30-31)

What do you suggest we do when faced with situations like this one?

I  am not a scholar, I can not 'suggest' what to do.


It is because I  need illumination on the issue that I have brought it here. My position ( from my understanding of the hadith and scholars' sayings) had been that the munaqabah could unveil only the face to the suitor, and the one without niqab shouldn't reveal anymore than the face and hands she naturally leaves uncovered.
But the problem here is that I realise this position of mine is inferred. I need a more specific justification for this position, probably, a tafseer of the hadith "look at her very well". How much is he entitled to look at?


@olabowale

Jazakallah khayran.
But the hair? Won't that entail total removal of the hijab? what if the nikkah doesn't eventually take place? Can a sister justify this action (of showing her hair to d prospective husband) in the sunnah? Do we have any example from the sahabah/sahaabiyyah?

zayhal:

It is because I  need illumination on the issue that I have brought it here. My position ( from my understanding of the hadith and scholars' sayings) had been that the munaqabah could unveil only the face to the suitor, and the one without niqab shouldn't reveal anymore than the face and hands she naturally leaves uncovered.
But the problem here is that I realise this position of mine is inferred. I need a more specific justification for this position, probably, a tafseer of the hadith "look at her very well". How much is he entitled to look at?

It is unreasonable for two people to be thrown together and be expected to relate and be intimate when they know nothing of each other.
The couple are permitted to look at each other with a critical eye and not a lustful one.
This ruling does not contradict the ayah which says that believing men and women should lower their gaze.

I suppose you want to know if "look at her very well" also means having "a very good taste of her".
Am sure you know that the teachings of the noble Prophet can never encourage pre-marital sex.

I think at times like this.
When the stiputaions of the Hadith cannot be accurately interpreted, common sense comes into play.

However, these days the Muslimah unveils for her suitor when:-

(1)She feels at ease with herself and her conscience allows her to unveil.

(2)If having done all that is necessary and the lady feels confident enough with the proceedings.

(3)If after careful examination of the suitor, the intermediary and the family/guardian of the lady find the suitor suitable enough for a union with their daughter.

This is not in line with the stipulations of the Sunnah but is a fair deal compared to allowing free interaction with a suitor with the hope of entering into matrimony which may never happen.

@zayhal

A word for the intending groom:
Except for the level of Iman, no Mumin would enter into a marriage contract with a munaqabah without taking a close look at her.
If the face and hands are the only visible parts.

Who will vouch for the other parts of the body?
Not with skin infections,breast cancer and fungal attacks in our modern society.
I must confess to you that alot is happening in our society that you are in the dark about.
I am not introducing innovations but i well encourage critical approaches to critical situations.

i am esther iwant u to be my friend

mybad:

I suppose you want to know if "look at her very well" also means having "a very good taste of her".
Am sure you know that the teachings of the noble Prophet can never encourage pre-marital sex.

Your supposition is incorrect sir.

And what are those things you think I'm 'in the dark about?

Please, dont stop, keep it coming!!!

He should see the necessary things. He could ask her to show him her legs (if she wont return him a slap) . But seriously, a man is entitled to know what he gets because paying the dowry and getting the opposite is usually a nonrefundable duty. I hope I wasn't erotic, but that's what I will ask for. Her hair, legs, but nothing extremely private.

I hope you wld stop at just see'g the legs

@Frizy

Do you think asking to see her hair and legs are right Islamically?
Pls back up your answer(s) with evidences from the quran and/or sunnah.
Thank you.

zayhal:

@Frizy

Do you think asking to see her hair and legs are right Islamically?
please back up your answer(s) with evidences from the quran and/or sunnah.
Thank you.

You have to be patient with me. But the prophet asked us to know what we will be contracting before agreeing to marry each other didn't he? I wont like to marry a sister and end up finding out that what I supposed wasn't the case. Please I have not said that this should happen anytime you like a lady, but a lady you want to marry needs to be thoroughly examined. The hands and face alone wont do, was that what made you initially to be attracted to her? And i said we don't have to check anything that will make our eyes twist, her legs are not inclusive. If she is still uncomfortable with that, then she better tells me what my ears will like to hear about them in a concise, inerotic manner.
I would try and get a proof to back this up, from a sahih hadith.

@Frizy

Good. Pls do get the evidence. I'll be waiting.
Meanwhile, Jazakallah khayran.

@Zayhal and others: Salaamualaykum wa rahmatullahi Ta ala wa barakatuh. Below is an excerpt from the writing of Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi on behavior of believing women and their future husband.

I think every line of this writing deserves to be read.


Seeing the Woman to Whom One Proposes Marriage.

It is permissible for a Muslim man to see the woman to whom he intends to propose marriage before taking further steps, so that he can enter into the marriage knowing what is ahead for him. Otherwise, if he has not seen her before marriage, he may not find her looks to his liking and may have regrets after he is married to her.The eye is the messenger of the heart; when the eyes meet, the hearts and the souls of man and woman may meet as well.


Muslim reported Abu Hurairah as saying that a man came to the Prophet (peace be on him), and, told him that he had contracted to marry a woman of the Ansar. "Did you look at her?" the Prophet (peace be on him) asked. "No," he said, 'Then go and look at her,' said the Prophet (peace be on him), 'for there is something in the eyes of the Ansar,' meaning that some of them have a defect of their eyesAl-Mughira ibn Shu'bah said, I asked for a woman in marriage and Allah's Messenger (peace be on him) asked me whether I had looked at her.


When I replied that I had not, he said 'Then look at her, for it may produce love between you.' I went to her parents and informed them of the Prophet's advice. They seemed to disapprove of the idea. Their daughter heard the conversation from her room and said, 'If the Prophet (peace be on him) has told you to look at me, then look.' I looked at her, and subsequently I married her. (Reported by Ahmad, Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah, Ibn Hibban, and Darimi.). The Prophet (peace be on him) did not specify either to Mughirah or to the other man how much of the woman they were permitted to see.


Some scholars are of the opinion that looking is limited to seeing the face and hands. However, it is permissible for anyone to see the face and hands as long as no desire is involved; therefore, if asking for woman in marriage is an exemption, obviously the man making the proposal should be able to see much more of the woman than that. The Prophet (peace be on him) said, "When one of you asks for woman in marriage, if he is able to look at what will induce him to marry her, he should do so." (Reported by Abu Daoud.).


Some scholars have gone to one extreme or another in relation to this permission, but the best course seems to be the middle one. One researcher considers it quite appropriate in our time that the man who is proposing be allowed to see the woman as she normally appears before her father, brother, and other muharramah. He says: In the context of the above hadith, he may even accompany her, together with her father or some other mahrem as chaperone, on her usual visits to relatives or to public places, while clad in full hijab. (Hijab denotes the proper Islamic dress. (Trans.)).


In this way he will have the opportunity to get an insight into her reasoning, behavior, and personality. This is a part of the meaning of the hadith, ", to look at what will induce him to marry her." (Al-Bahee al-Khooly, Al-Mar'ah Bain al-bayn al-bait wal-Mujtamah'.). If the man's intention of marriage is sincere, he is permitted to see the woman with or without her and her family's knowledge. Jarir ibn 'Abdullah said concerning his wife, "(Before marriage) I used to hide under a tree to see her. "From the hadith concerning al-Mughira we understand that the father of a girl cannot, out of deference to custom and tradition, prevent a suitor who is in earnest from seeing her, for customs and traditions must be governed by the Shari'ah.


How is it possible that the Divine Law should subjected to the whims of human beings? On the other hand, however, neither the father, the suitor, or the fiancee can stretch this permission to such an extent that the young man and woman, under the pretext of betrothal or engagement, go to movie theaters, clubs, and shopping places together without being accompanied by a mahrem of hers, a practice which has become common today among Muslims who are fond of imitating Western civilization and its customs.

@olabowale
jazakallah khayran.
This is more like it.

This is really enlightening.
But to be candid,the suitor need not see the bride- to-be's hairs,hands ,legs etc. This can be done by his sister or mother.

All he needs is the face and getting to know her character which is poosible without unveiling. Although that will be very difficult for me. . . . . . . but we're all different !

congoshine:

This is really enlightening.
But to be candid,the suitor need not see the bride- to-be's hairs,hands ,legs etc. This can be done by his sister or mother.

All he needs is the face and getting to know her character which is poosible without unveiling. Although that will be very difficult for me. . . . . . . but we're all different !

I quite agree with you.
What's the point in insisting on seeing more than the face and hands? Ok, what if after seeing the hair, legs or whatever, there's a particular thing u dislike, perhaps the hair isn't as long as u wish, or the legs are spotty, will u then back out, and then another brother, comes, does same thing and backs out. Won't this cause fitnah?
And I must say, brothers who are not well grounded in the understanding of islam cause mischief in the name of trying to look at the intended wife.

congoshine:

,

Well done!
.

Nimshi:

Well done!
.

thank you

congoshine:

All he needs is the face and getting to know her character which is poosible without unveiling. Although that will be very difficult for me. . . . . . . but we're all different !

@congoshine
Why not go ahead and tell us what you'll prefer or how much you'll want to see in your woman?

Nimshi:

Well done!
.

congoshine:

thank you

@Nimshi & congoshine
Don't tell me you two are congratulating each other over sharing thesame opinion on this topic.

olabowale:

@Zayhal and others: Salaamualaykum wa rahmatullahi Ta ala wa barakatuh. Below is an excerpt from the writing of Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi on behavior of believing women and their future husband.

I think every line of this writing deserves to be read.


Seeing the Woman to Whom One Proposes Marriage.

It is permissible for a Muslim man to see the woman to whom he intends to propose , b]

@olabowale
I agree that all the quoted Hadith are of the Noble prophet.
I however disagree that all of them can be entirely adhered to.
These are the teachings of the most perfect of Allah's creatures and i wonder who can ever match his ways.

Perfection can be aimed at but i don't think it can be attained by "us".
Besides,i wonder how many of us followed the afore mentioned rules while choosing his bride.
I don't know how you did it in your time but i still stand a good chance of going by the sunnah in my time cos i've not taken my bride.