The theologians belives the World was created by God... how did that God come to be?......... So atheist believe the world started with a big bang, how did what ever exploded to cause the big bang came to be? The question is a variant of who designed the designer

Not all atheists accept the Big Bang Theory.
Most are fine with saying "I don't know"

It seem safe to say that both atheists and theologians are a confused set of people.

Apatheist: Not all atheists accept the Big Bang Theory.
Most are fine with saying "I don't know"

Seconded

pesty100: The theologians belives the World was created by God... how did that God come to be?......... So atheist believe the world started with a big bang, how did what ever exploded to cause the big bang came to be? The question is a variant of who designed the designer

The big bang isn't an atheistic proposal, it is a scientific explanation. . . . .

mazaje:

The big bang isn't an atheistic proposal, it is a scientific explanation. . . . .

That's true, considering most "educated" pagans I know totally subscribe to the big bang theory

mazaje:

The big bang isn't an atheistic proposal, it is a scientific explanation. . . . .

if I may ask, apart from there is no god, what is th atheist proposition

pesty100: if I may ask, apart from there is no god, what is th atheist proposition

Nothing more than disbelief in gods. . .

pesty100: The theologians belives the World was created by God... how did that God come to be?.........

God is the source of creation. And of course the source of creation may be invisible to the pysical eyes but cannot be lifeless.

Some refer to that source as a force, some refer to the source as energy, the bible refers to the source as God.

We can't say exactly the shape of that source yet the source, though invisible, has characteristIcs/attributes. We describe God(as chrIstians) based on his attributes that are manifest- ( creator, love, mercy. Wrath etc).

This just my own views o. We can't know everything about God for eternity.

Let's see.
Imagine, if there was nothing at all. No humans, Planets, Space-Time, nothing.
What do you think would exist? Let's call it Vacuum or Nothing-ness.

Now, the fabric of that same Vacuum is nothingness; no light, no elemental universe.

That Nothing-ness was also super condensed to Infinity because that's all the fabric available in the absence of anything.
This Nothing-ness is also condensed energy to Infinity of Vacuum and so eventually becomes ruptured due to its randomness.
That randomness is what is available in the absence of order.
This rupture is what science theorizes as Big Bang.

alexleo:

God is the source of creation. And of course the source of creation may be invisible to the pysical eyes but cannot be lifeless.

"The invisible and imaginary look very much alike"

We can't say exactly the shape of that source yet the source, though invisible, has characteristIcs/attributes. We describe God(as chrIstians) based on his attributes that are manifest- ( creator, love, mercy. Wrath etc).

So your god is a human?
If you can't see or analyze this "source" how do you know it has emotions? is it how a puppet "manifests" emotions and speech in the hands of a ventriloquist?

We can't know everything about God for eternity.

Except that it hates gays, hates the same things you do, likes the same things you do, has the same opinions and views-- and sends the people different from you, who you don't like to eternal perdition.

Whichever way anyone wants to look at it, the truth remains that creation started from a source. That source is what is being described in various forms. For us as christians that source is God/yahweh/ Jehova etc. For you that source is big bang. For a muslim that source is Allah, for some others that source is energy, force, intelligent designer.etc.

None of us can really describe the shape of that source because the source is invisible. What the bible gave us is the character of the source, not the shape.

For me I believe that such a source through which this wonderful, intelligent, beautiful, magnificient and mysterious thing called creation came from must be a source to reckon with. A lively and active source. A source with characteristics/attributes of which creativity. Is one of them.

That source remains more powerful, more glorious and far greater than we the created. For us as christians we refer to that source as God etc

The purpose of this thread isn't to ask for the source but the source of the source itself

Apatheist: "The invisible and imaginary look very much alike"

Air is invisible yet we feel it and also see the impact. Electric current is invisible yet we see its effect on our appliances. When u also touch a live wire u feel the shock of the current. God (you can call him source of creation if you like) is invisible yet we see his creative work. Those of us who have had encounter with him feels his presence within us. Nothing states that what you have not experienced or encountered does not exist.

Apatheist:
So your god is a human?
If you can't see or analyze this "source" how do you know it has emotions? is it how a puppet "manifests" emotions and speech in the hands of a ventriloquist?

I am talking about the source of creation. For such a source that creation came from, it has characteristics of which creativity is one of them. If the source can be creative why should you rule out the fact that there are other attributes attached to the source? Does it take nothing to be creative?

For a source through which creatures with emotions etc came out from, you can't just rule out things just like that.

You are looking at the source as a man. And as a being In your exact appearance. That's not what I'm looking at.

pesty100: The purpose of this thread isn't to ask for the source but the source of the source itself

The source here is a total package. Everything that surrounds it is what makes It the source. That is the way am viewinng the issue. And of course we cannot know everything that surrounds it. But the basic thing is that creation came out from a source.

alexleo:

Air is invisible yet we feel it and also see the impact. Electric current is invisible yet we see its effect on our appliances. When u also touch a live wire u feel the shock of the current. God (you can call him source of creation if you like) is invisible yet we see his creative work. Those of us who have had encounter with him feels his presence within us.

And you had "an encounter" with this "source" of yours because you had "faith" correct?
Do you need faith to see the effect of electric current? FYI, we can manipulate electric current without needing"faith"
Do you need "faith" to breathe air?
Why then do you need faith to have this encounter?

" I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us
knowledge which we can attain by them." -- Galileo Galilei

Nothing states that what you have not experienced or encountered does not exist.

Exactly! We agree on something.
How then do you say the source-- or god-- of others aren't true, that only yours is true?
You aren't allowed to reference scripture, because their scripture negates yours, just as yours negates them
So how do you prove OBJECTIVELY that yours is true?

I am talking about the source of creation. For such a source that creation came from, it has characteristics of which creativity is one of them. If the source can be creative why should you rule out the fact that there are other attributes attached to the source? Does it take nothing to be creative?

This is not the case, my friend.
Do you know how islands are formed?
They're formed by/from volcanic eruptions.
Would you say that a volcano is creative?

For a source through which creatures with emotions etc came out from, you can't just rule out things just like that.

Cause and effect does not work like that.

You are looking at the source as a man. And as a being In your exact appearance. That's not what I'm looking at.

How else am I supposed to look at it?
Your source seems human, with human emotions.
Also, your your bible says so, not me.

Hmmm. Am happy to know more Nigerians are thinking.
About the question; its mind-boggling!

Apatheist: And you had "an encounter" with this "source" of yours because you had "faith" correct?
Do you need faith to see the effect of electric current? FYI, we can manipulate electric current without needing"faith"
Do you need "faith" to breathe air?
Why then do you need faith to have this encounter?

.

And yes you don't need faith to see the impact of electricity the impact of electricity or air. You also don't need faith to see the impact of the creator. His creations are everywhere(including You and I).

We don't see the air but we feel it. We don't see the electric current but we can feel the shock. We don't see the creator but we can feel him in us too. Everything mentioned here still works within us. The faith you are talking about works within us. Its still about us. Like I said, nothing says that what you ve not experienced is non existent.

Apatheist:

" I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us
knowledge which we can attain by them." -- Galileo Galilei

And of course christIanity did not say you shouldn't use your senses and reasons. It tells you how you can relate wIth your maker. Its now left for you as a person to follow those steps. And if you see that the step is working out, the most reasonable and sensible thing to do is to continue on that path. That's part of making use of your senses and reasons and this is what has kept billions of christians across the globe on this path for centuries.

Apatheist:
Exactly! We agree on something.
How then do you say the source-- or god-- of others aren't true, that only yours is true?
You aren't allowed to reference scripture, because their scripture negates yours, just as yours negates them
.

One common factor amongst us is that we believe in the creator(source of creation). He is invisible, we can't describe his shape. The differences lies on how we relate with him. Of course every relgion will tell you that their own way of relating with him is the best. Its now left for you as an indvidual to find out for yourself which one is the true way. Surely all the various ways being presented by the various groups cannot all be true but there must be a true way. Its still you that must find it for yourself.

Apatheist:


This is not the case, my friend.
Do you know how islands are formed?
They're formed by/from volcanic eruptions.
Would you say that a volcano is creative?

.

My friend everything still zeros down to the the source. The volcano and island you are talking about is operating on something(the earth) that originated from a source. It is that central source(God, for us as christians) that we are talking about.

I don't argue about the existence of the creator(God) with people.. For me its a closed case. So if that's what you are up for, I'm not there for you. Thanks.

alexleo:

The source here is a total package. Everything that surrounds it is what makes It the source. That is the way am viewinng the issue. And of course we cannot know everything that surrounds it. But the basic thing is that creation came out from a source.

what surrounds it? And why shouldn't we know everything

alexleo:

And yes you don't need faith to see the impact of electricity the impact of electricity or air.

My point exactly!

You also don't need faith to see the impact of the creator. His creations are everywhere(including You and I).

But his creations, made in his image are visible, while he's invisible. Also, what do you need faith for?

We don't see the air but we feel it. We don't see the electric current but we can feel the shock. We don't see the creator but we can feel him in us too.

I don't feel any creator.

Everything mentioned here still works within us. The faith you are talking about works within us. Its still about us.

I ask again: What is the need for faith?

Like I said, nothing says that what you ve not experienced is non existent.

eg Santa Claus, Unicorns, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, A pregnant man, Vishnu, Allah, etc.

And of course christIanity did not say you shouldn't use your senses and reasons. It tells you how you can relate wIth your maker. Its now left for you as a person to follow those steps. And if you see that the step is working out, the most reasonable and sensible thing to do is to continue on that path. That's part of making use of your senses and reasons and this is what has kept billions of christians across the globe on this path for centuries.

The quote remains relevant, why faith?
There are other religions older than Christianity.

One common factor amongst us is that we believe in the creator(source of creation).

Define "us"
I, and about 2 billion people don't believe. Other religions with billions of adherents don't believe in your god.

He is invisible,

If we are in his image why aren't we invisible?

we can't describe his shape.

How come? Aren't we in its image? aren't we supposed to look alike?

The differences lies on how we relate with him. Of course every relgion will tell you that their own way of relating with him is the best. Its now left for you as an indvidual to find out for yourself which one is the true way. Surely all the various ways being presented by the various groups cannot all be true but there must be a true way. Its still you that must find it for yourself.

Exactly! Why are there different gods? How do you prove objectively that yours is the true one?

My friend everything still zeros down to the the source. The volcano and island you are talking about is operating on something(the earth) that originated from a source. It is that central source(God, for us as christians) that we are talking about.

volcanoes are also bad for people, does god enjoy suffering?

I don't argue about the existence of the creator(God) with people.. For me its a closed case. So if that's what you are up for, I'm not there for you. Thanks.

I want to find out how/why/if your god is the true god.

pesty100: The purpose of this thread isn't to ask for the source but the source of the source itself

Let us suppose that you are right that some entity created the universe, and another entity created the creator of the universe, and another entity created the creator of the creator of the universe,.... and so on and so forth without end.
Using Maths, let E1, E2,E3...En be entity 1, 2,3 to n. Where n is any real positive number.
The sum of this chain of creators will be E1+E2+E3+...+Einfinity. Now if you substract E1+E2+E3+...+En from the sum of the chain, you will have E(n+1)+E(n+2)...+Einfinity.
This would mean that there does not exist a time t =0 that marks the beginning of the chain of creators, because the chain is infinite and by implication God is infinite having no beginning.

dorox:
Let us suppose that you are right that some entity created the universe, and another entity created the creator of the universe, and another entity created the creator of the creator of the universe,.... and so on and so forth without end.
Let E1, E2,E3 and En be entity 1, 2,3 and n. Where n is any real positive number.
The sum of this chain is E1+E2+E3+...+Einfinity. Now if you substract E1+E2+E3+...+En from the sum of the chain, you will have
E(n+1)+...Einfinity.
This would imply that there does not exist a time t =0 that marks the beginning of the chain of creators, because the chain is infinite.
So God does not have a beginning.

but he exists and what ever exists has a cause ( thou I don't understand your mathematical jumbo)

pesty100: but he exists and what ever exists has a cause ( thou I don't understand your mathematical jumbo)

If we accept the premise on which you made your argument as true, that is; if God exists, there is a source behind his existence, then it will also be true that there is a source behind the source of God's existence, and a source behind the source that is behind the source of God's existence, and on and on indefinitely. My mathematics was just a way of showing that this will lead us back to the idea that God has no beginning.

dorox:
If we accept the premise on which you made your argument as true, that is; if God exists, there is source behind his existence, then it will also be true that there is a source behind the source of God's existence, and a source behind the source that is behind the source of God's existence, and on and on indefinitely. My mathematics was just a way of showing that this will lead us back to the idea that God has no beginning.

Thanks. And that's why I said that it is the totality of everything that surrounds his exIstence that makes him what he is.

Apatheist: My point exactly! But his creations, made in his image are visible, while he's invisible.
.

Yes he created us in his image. He is a spirit and therefore invisiblle. He created us physical with his spirit (life) in us. Like I said, nowhere was his shape described to us in the bible. We only know him by his characterisics( love mercy, creativity, emotions, talks, hears, ability to choose and make decisions, excercise authority and leadership etc) and all these are found in man (though with limits).

Creating us in his image has much to do with these attributes of him than shape and appearance since he is invisible and we can't really tell how he looks. .

A little example of this is- man can create a robot in his image but it doesn't mean that the robot will be 100 percent like man. There will still be differences and linitations. That's what differentiates you and what you ve created.

Our creator is definitely far more glorious, powerful and greater than us.

Apatheist:
I don't feel any creator.

That's for you. I feel the creator and billions of others feel him. Again I say, nothing makes what you ve not experienced non-existent.

Apatheist:
. I ask again: What is the need for faith?

.

Faith is needful to us as much as unbelief is to you.

Apatheist:

Define "us"
I, and about 2 billion people don't believe. Other religions with billions of adherents don't believe in your god.
.

Us means all those who believe that there is a creator. Whatever name or religion they attach to him is a different issue from my point.
We are all talking about the same thing- the source of creation. But the difference lies in our understanding of him and ways we relate to him.

Even people of the same church or the same muslim etc have some differences too in their understanding of him. That's human. We can't understand him totally with our limited mind. He is infinite. .

Apatheist:


I want to find out how/why/if your god is the true god.

Commune with him with an unbiased mind. He is invisible. He is everywhere. You don't even need to attach him to any religion. Just talk to him as the creator and tell him you want to feel his presence in your life. If you are sincere, you will witness him.

Many atheists that converted to christianity started out with him as the creator. They had several encounter with him under no religion. It was after some time that they got their convictions and joined christianity. Banom is one example here in nairaland. You can start out same way under no religion or denomination and enjoy your fellowship with him. Wherever he leads you pls go. Thanks.

alexleo:

Yes he created us in his image.

Which means we should be just like him.

He is a spirit and therefore invisible

You still haven't told me why we're not invisible.

He created us physical with his spirit (life) in us. Like I said, nowhere was his shape described to us in the bible.

Says who? If we're in his image, he's a man (,how come women?) and he has a penis, beards. legs etc.

We only know him by his characterisics( love mercy, creativity, emotions, talks, hears, ability to choose and make decisions, excercise authority and leadership etc) and all these are found in man (though with limits).

Other characteristics: Anger, murder, deceit, slave master, lying, etc.
Yes, man has these characteristics because we're in God's image.
The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, no?

Creating us in his image has much to do with these attributes of him than shape and appearance since he is invisible and we can't really tell how he looks. .

Creating us in his image means he's like us.

little example of this is- man can create a robot in his image but it doesn't mean that the robot will be 100 percent like man. There will still be differences and limitations. That's what differentiates you and what you ve created.

Says who? unless the differences and limitations were intentional. Let me blow your mind: Do you know all the (commercial) bananas in the world are actually clones of one banana? www.io9.com/5818694/bananas-have-been-hopelessly-inbred-clones-for-the-last-7000-years
Ever heard of GMOs? Science has enabled us to grow fruits and food from cells! And there are no differences between natural fruits and GMOs. So if imperfect man can achieve this, a perfect god should be able to make us just like him.

That's for you. I feel the creator and billions of others feel him. Again I say, nothing makes what you ve not experienced non-existent.

Billions of others do not feel any creator.
Billions more feel other creators, will you say that they ate wrong and your creator is the true one?

Faith is needful to us as much as unbelief is to you.

Unbelief is not "needful" to me.
Faith is active; unbelief is passive.
I am very skeptical.

Us means all those who believe that there is a creator. Whatever name or religion they attach to him is a different
issue from my point.
We are all talking about the same thing- the source of
creation.

We are different people, I am atheist, you are not. You and your mother are not the same person; she is female and you are male, Vegetarians are not omnivores. A dog is not a cat, a cow eats grass, a lion doesn't.
It would be asinine to say these things are the same.
Yahweh is not Allah, Bacchus is not Vishnu, Zeus is not Astarte. The gods are different, some are male, some female others hermaphrodite. Some are humans, others are animals. Is Sango the same as Amadioha? Allah forbids pork, Zeus doesn't, are they the same person? Yahweh forbids wine, Bacchus doesn't, are they the same person?

But the difference lies in our understanding of him
and ways we relate to him.
Even people of the same church or the same muslim etc
have some differences too in their understanding of him.

Exactly! It seems this god or gods are confused. Giving different people different instructions.

That's human. We can't understand him totally with our limited mind. He is infinite. .

If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough-- Albert Einstein.
It seems your god doesn't understand itself sufficiently to explain to humans.

pesty100: The purpose of this thread isn't to ask for the source but the source of the source itself

?
??

Apatheist: Which means we should be just like him. You still haven't told me why we're not invisible

He didn't create Gods. What he created is man so you can't be exactly like him. You are not God, you are man. He didn't say " let us create Gods". He said let us create man.

Genesis 3:22

2 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Now this shows you that when God talked about creating man in his image he was talking about character/attributes(of which knowing good and evil is one of his attributes). He wasn't talking about shape.

This shows also that he didn't create man hundred percent like him. You can see he didn't want man to eat from the tree of life and live forever(another attribute of him which he didn't put in us human).
Again e didn't originally put the knowledge of good and evil(like him) In man.
That's why I told you earlier that there are differences and limitations.

Apatheist: .
Other characteristics: Anger, murder, deceit, slave master, lying, etc.
Yes, man has these characteristics because we're in God's image.
The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, no?
.

You are just picking and choosing and twisting the bible to suit you. Since you asked me questions based on biblical account then you should be truthful about it.

When God created man( Adam), sin(which are some of the things you mentioned up there) wasn't part of him. You know the bible account of how man in excercising his freewill chose sin. Man wasn't originally created with sin.
Some other things happening to man came as a result of the curse God placed on man and the earth.

alexleo:
Commune with him with an unbiased mind.
He is invisible. He is everywhere. You don't
even need to attach him to any religion. Just
talk to him as the creator and tell him you
want to feel his presence in your life. If you
are sincere, you will witness him.
Many atheists that converted to christianity
started out with him as the creator. They had
several encounter with him under no
religion. It was after some time that they got
their convictions and joined christianity.

selling his religion in the guise of "you don't have to follow religion"

You keep talking of having a relationship with God outside religion when your entire God ideas are based on religion
Such hypocrisy

@apatheist yes Sango is the same as Amadioha if you understand both concepts

alexleo:

Air is invisible yet we feel it and also see
the impact. Electric current is invisible yet
we see its effect on our appliances. When
u also touch a live wire u feel the shock
of the current. God (you can call him
source of creation if you like) is invisible
yet we see his creative work. Those of us
who have had encounter with him feels
his presence within us. Nothing states
that what you have not experienced or
encountered does not exist.
I am talking about the source of creation.
For such a source that creation came
from, it has characteristics of which
creativity is one of them. If the source can
be creative why should you rule out the
fact that there are other attributes
attached to the source? Does it take
nothing to be creative?
For a source through which creatures
with emotions etc came out from, you
can't just rule out things just like that.
You are looking at the source as a man.
And as a being In your exact appearance.
That's not what I'm looking at.

Quick question...is God more wind than
human??
Since by your explanation, he seems to share
more with air than men