I have never ever seen any post here on nairaland recommending that buyers of used cars should include changing the brake fluid as required servicing. I have seen change the transmission oil, engine oil BUT NOT brake fluid although everything points to the fact that brake fluid can degrade over time?

I read a lot about why brake fluid replacement is required servicing several weeks ago but put if off until I actually experienced brake failure (or should I rather say brake fade)?

Needless to say it was scary, it happened 200 miles into a 400 mile journey. When I returned home, I did what I read, i serviced the brakes and replaced the fluid with new.

I used DOT 3 as a temporary measure because I know DOT 5.1 is better ( by the way nairaland speed demons don't keep using DOT 3 when DOT 5.1 has the advantage of very high boiling points, relatively stable viscosity over a wide range of temperatures PLUS all the nifty water-absorbing characteristics of DOT 3.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fluid#Glycol-based_.28DOT_3.2C_4.2C_5.1.29
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=421463

Please do not use DOT 5 in place of DOT 3, only DOT 5.1 in place of DOT 3.

While replacing engine oil keeps your motor hale and hearty, replacing brake fluid as and when due may very well mean the difference between life and death!

A more comprehensive resource: http://www.epicbleedsolutions.com/blog/dot-brake-fluid-vs-mineral-oil/

How do you know its break fluid that caused your break failure?

TCD: How do you know its break fluid that caused your break failure?

I noticed that the brake pedal when depressed would go right down with little or no resistance, it felt spongy. So I knew something was wrong.

So I stopped.

Came out of the vehicle and checked around all 4 wheels and under the car, no signs of leaking brake fluid. So I opened the bonnet and checked the brake fluid level, it had gone low but not too low.

So I topped it up, pumped the brakes everything appeared fine.

So I went right back unto the road and would intermittently test the brakes, after depressing it a couple of times, I would give me the resistance I am used to (instead of giving it to me the first time and all the time as before) so I increased the gaps between me and the vehicles ahead of me to accommodate the longer braking distances.

So i strongly suspect that I had overheated brake pads ... which occurred after a power stop due to an encounter with armed robbers in transit and while I attempted to race away from the spot, oncoming traffic decided to u-turn just in front of me causing me to force the car to a stop from an extremely high speed.

Now if the brake pads overheated, then i strongly suspect the brake fluid also overheated.

I read that once brake fluid overheats it losses its effectiveness so that's why I had to do a flush as well as bleed the brakes

It is possible that air got into the brakes but I think after 30,000 miles a fluid refresh was in order.

Brake failure at 154 miles per hour (247 kilometers per hour)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eeoxt_6_Y3g

Speed without control is nothing yet again! Perfect control in a possibly fatal scenario, read more here: http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1094652_brake-failure-at-154-mph-is-terrifying-onboard-video?speed

I believe the major cause for this is that mechanics generally don't believe brake fluids should be changed at certain intervals. I remember before becoming a DIY guy, I discussed this with my mechanic and he said "the brake dey disturb you?" I said no. "Make you leave am o" was his final response; more like a warning .

Fast-forward: I have already bought the bottles of DOT3 that I need and would be doing the service ASAP. Will try to do a DIY thread on it for the 03-07 accord.
I already have experience working on brakes so it shouldn't pose a problem at all.

Good thread OP!

generally you dont need to flush the system as somewhere along the vehicles life

the brake pipes needed changing or the calipher seize you top up the fluid thereby diluting the old one when you bleed the system

therefore a flush is rarely needed except in special circumstances

Not only brake fluid flush, what about a general brake service ? Taking off all brake components, having a look around, cleaning and greasing (not forgetting hand brake components).
A car that moves fast, must stop fast !!!!!
NB : Maybe not necessary for new cars, but older cars in my summation, a must do !!!!!
You will surely physically feel a tightening of the braking systems. Only to be performed by a competent hand !!!!

Lexusgs430: Not only brake fluid flush, what about a general brake service ? Taking off all brake components, having a look around, cleaning and greasing (not forgetting hand brake components).
A car that moves fast, must stop fast !!!!!
NB : Maybe not necessary for new cars, but older cars in my summation, a must do !!!!!
You will surely physically feel a tightening of the braking systems. Only to be performed by a competent hand !!!!

Good tips there! This brings up a related issue, change of brake pads is common. when to change rotors? Should worn out rotors be replaced with new or used? Given that we have china brand new rotors and mechanics tend to believe fairly used is better??

IdaraCHODB:

Good tips there! This brings up a related issue, change of brake pads is common. when to change rotors? Should worn out rotors be replaced with new or used? Given that we have china brand new rotors and mechanics tend to believe fairly used is better??

I personally would only replace brake disc if they are worn or warped.
Getting new disc is advisable,if oem or near enough could be sought (mechanics prefer used, cos new chinko adultrated goods normally wear out before used).

Old wives tale, IMHO and generally a scare tactics.

I've never ever flushed my brake system unless I am swapping major brake parts like master cylinder, etc and I have never suffered a brake loss.

Total vehicle care is more important.

YMMV.

I agree with CityNG.there is nowhere total flush is recomended unless there is contamination these are mechanics opening office on ur account.You top up.your break will fail for many reason..For service purpose i think a DIY on tje calippers.the piston would do much good.I also note that some unscrupulos mechanics put bare grease on the sliding bold.never do this as it cakes under xtreem heat forming a blockade against free movements of the pads
My friends in 9ja you are unfurtunate to get proper ceramic pads likes us abroad so try s much to get break dust off the surface of ur disk as this could reduce friction n cos break falure.

Well until my brake failure episode I didn't care about a flush, all I cared about was bleeding the brakes. But I did read a lot about flushing, just in case, I just didn't think I needed it then.

For the benefit of continuing the argument (for and against) here are some resources I found:

1.Is brake flushing really necessary?http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-parts/brakes/brake-tests/is-brake-flushing-necessary.htm
2. Does brake fluid need to be changed? http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2013/12/does-brake-fluid-need-to-be-changed.html
3. Should I flush my brakes or did I get flushed? http://community.cartalk.com/discussion/2273202/brake-fluid-flushing-or-did-i-get-flushed
4. Why change brake fluid? http://www.aa1car.com/library/bfluid.htm
5. Brake system flush https://www.yourmechanic.com/services/brake-system-flush

I did that because I just wanted to be absolutely sure of what I got in the system. Next steps Akebono Ceremic brakes and Bosch Quietcast Rotors

The fourth link is the most important. here is an extract:

OEM BRAKE FLUID RECOMMENDATIONS

What do the auto makers say about fluid changes? General Motors and Chrysler do not mention brake fluid in their scheduled maintenance recommendations. A General Motors spokesman said Delco Supreme 11 DOT 3 brake fluid contains additives than many other brake fluids do not, so it is essentially a lifetime fluid. Starting in 1993, GM began using a new type of rubber brake hose with an EPM lining and outer jacketing that reduces moisture penetration by 50%. So GM does not consider fluid contamination to be a significant problem.

Ford, for a time, recommended fresh fluid every 36,000 miles or three years, and to replace the fluid each time the brake pads are changed. Currently, however, Ford specifies no specific time or mileage recommendation for changing the brake fluid.

As for Chrysler, the only recommendation they publish is to change the fluid every 24 months on their Sprinter van.

A number of import car makers do recommend brake fluid changes for preventive maintenance at specific time/mileage intervals:
Acura: 36 months
Audi: 24 months
BMW: 24 months, or when indicated by Service Inspection Indicator
Honda: 36 months
Jaguar: 24 months all models except 2009 XF (36 months)
Land Rover: 36 months
Lexus: 36 months or 30,000 miles, which ever comes first
Mercedes-Benz: 24 months
MINI 24 months
Saab: 48 months (all models except 9-7X)
Smart: 24 months or 20,000 miles, which ever comes first
Subaru: 30 months or 30,000 miles (normal service) or 15 months/15,000 miles (severe service)
Suzuki: 24 months or 30,000 miles, which ever comes first (Forenza & Reno), 60 months or 60,000 miles (Grand Vitara and SX4)
Volkswagen: 24 months (New Beetle, City Gold, City Jetta), 36 months (all other models except Routan)
Volvo: 24 months or 37,000 miles (Normal), or 12 months (severe service)
Source for fluid change recommendations: Vehicle Manufacturer service information & owners manuals

If motorists would only follow this simple advice to change their brake fluid periodically, they could greatly reduce the risks associated with moisture-contaminated brake fluid. You can extend the life of your brake system and likely save yourself a lot of money in the long run on grake repairs, especially if your vehicle is equipped with ABS (because ABS modulators are very expensive to replace!).

Source:http://www.aa1car.com/library/bfluid.htm

erico2k2: I agree with CityNG.there is nowhere total flush is recomended unless there is contamination these are mechanics opening office on ur account.You top up.your break will fail for many reason..For service purpose i think a DIY on tje calippers.the piston would do much good.I also note that some unscrupulos mechanics put bare grease on the sliding bold.never do this as it cakes under xtreem heat forming a blockade against free movements of the pads
My friends in 9ja you are unfurtunate to get proper ceramic pads likes us abroad so try s much to get break dust off the surface of ur disk as this could reduce friction n cos break falure.

Now that you mentioned it, I read somewhere that brakes for europe or is it Germany are special (as in even higher quality than brake pads made for America) because they need to be capable of stopping from speeds of 150 mph repeatedly, now that's the kind of brake pads I would love to have! Can you confirm or disprove?

IdaraCHODB: Well until my brake failure episode I didn't care about a flush, all I cared about was bleeding the brakes. But I did read a lot about flushing, just in case, I just didn't think I needed it then.

For the benefit of continuing the argument (for and against) here are some resources I found:

1.Is brake flushing really necessary?http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-parts/brakes/brake-tests/is-brake-flushing-necessary.htm
2. Does brake fluid need to be changed? http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2013/12/does-brake-fluid-need-to-be-changed.html
3. Should I flush my brakes or did I get flushed? http://community.cartalk.com/discussion/2273202/brake-fluid-flushing-or-did-i-get-flushed
4. Why change brake fluid? http://www.aa1car.com/library/bfluid.htm
5. Brake system flush https://www.yourmechanic.com/services/brake-system-flush

I did that because I just wanted to be absolutely sure of what I got in the system. Next steps Akebono Ceremic brakes and Bosch Quietcast Rotors

I don't believe what all those workshop guide says, they are even worse sometimes than our Nigerian mechanics who in spite of non existing tools do the best they could.These guys are in the same Biz as milking you making sure you carry unnecessary work on your car so you can part with your hard earned cash.Check all of the Links did you see any link from any Auto manufacturer?Reason they know the truth, few of them do recommend flush, but guys like Toyota don't include it i n their maintenance schedule.As far as you use manufacturers recommended fluid, you are good to go unless you get contamination ie moisture, leave those thieves.

IdaraCHODB:

Now that you mentioned it, I read somewhere that brakes for europe or is it Germany are special (as in even higher quality than brake pads made for America) because they need to be capable of stopping from speeds of 150 mph repeatedly, now that's the kind of brake pads I would love to have! Can you confirm or disprove?

Nah I don't think so, however, I think you should buy Break Pads depending on the materials they are made of,Down here the Ceramic pads are the winners, and upgraded Disc(Drilled)

Chisos! I did this out of ignorance when I bought my car. I decided to remove anything liquid in the car (engine oil, tranny oil, brake fluid, wiper wash water,radiator water). So I was right, thank God.

lonelydora: Chisos! I did this out of ignorance when I bought my car. I decided to remove anything liquid in the car (engine oil, tranny oil, brake fluid, wiper wash water,radiator water). So I was right, thank God.

lol guy you funny die, but on a serious note,did you replace the radiator fluid with proper one or just water?

The linked material convinced me more that's its hogwash and emotional attempt to stimulate economy.

The same kind of outfits would love you to change your oil monthly or 1,000 miles.

Different folk, different strokes.

All the same. A few questions.

Does fluid deteriorate? Be that fluid engine oil, or ATF or brake fluid?

If engine oil needs to replaced from time and even ATF, why not brake fluid? Even so-called lifetime fluids have been proven to have a lifespan.

What are the properties of brake fluid? Is it true that it is hygroscopic? If yes, what is the effect on the fluid and the braking system as a whole? Negative or positive?

Which is better? preventative maintenance aka changing the fluid OR replacing costly brake components as a result of corrosion from spent brake fluid?

Every car owner will have to answer and live with the choices he makes

Whatever you do, consult you car manual, some manuals give a time-table for inspecting the fluid, others give a time-table for replacing the fluid, some don't. And even when manuals do not specify a replacement interval for the fluid some owners still go ahead and replace same as preventive maintenance. Whatever one decides, just do your homework well.

Whatever the case, whatever you decide just remember the properties of brake fluid and the effect of environmental factors on the same as summarized here:

"Did you know that you should regularly flush your brake fluid? Most people don’t and here is why you should do it, regularly.

Brake fluid is hygroscopic. That means it loves to absorb water like a sponge and likes it so much it will suck water right out of the air. As it absorbs water two bad things happen. First is that it causes the boiling point of the fluid to go down reducing braking performance, and second, the moister causes the brake fluid to become corrosive and can damage brake system parts, very expensive brake system parts.

The brakes generate lots of heat and the fluid in the brakes can get very hot. If it gets hot enough it can boil, and when it does it goes from a liquid to a gas. Remember back in school you leaned that fluids don’t compress well? That is the whole concept behind hydraulic brake systems. The brake fluid does not compress so it passes energy from the master cylinder that is connected to the brake pedal to the wheel cylinders, or calipers where the pads press against the rotors or drums to stop your car. This all works well as long as the brake fluid remains a liquid. If it gets to hot it will boil and transform its self from a liquid to a gas. Remember air is a gas and you can really compress it, a lot. You can take a lot of gas and compress it and put it in to a small place like a scuba tank. The bad thing is that it will not transfer energy to the brake pads like liquid brake fluid can.

Once your brake fluid boils, your brake pedal can go right to the floor and have little to NO affect on getting the brakes to stop the car. This has happened to me several times in my work cars, but NEVER in any of my personal cars. "
Source: http://www.gadgetonline.com/BrakeFlush.htm

Mine is to share what works for me and why. Mine isn't to decide for anyone. Should you decide to flush, good for you. Should you decide not to flush, good for you.

Life is all about learning and sharing and to that extent, I give back because I keep learning from others.

Am certain that someone somewhere whatever he decides, will be better enlightened as a result of the series of posts I made here.

Peugeot recommended or instructed hydraulic renewal on the brake systems of all their owners manuals I have seen, once every 2 years.

Ikenna

Personal experience.

After some years, the hydraulic will turn into something else, I mean, it will become thicker and change colour. Not good for caliper seals, even clutch master and slave cylinders, for manual transmissions.

Anyone that doesn't want to experience his brake pedal suddenly hitting the floor without leakage someday, needs to flush his brake fluids every once in a while, even if he/she doesn't want to keep the 2 years recommendation. Last time I checked, brake failure could lead to death and even death of innocent ones on the road. You could play with that, if you wished to.

Ikenna.

It's still hogwash based on my personal data and from those I trust some of whom have been owning cars since the 40s.

Show me a brake failure that is directly related to not changing brake fluid and then lets chew it over. And I mean your personal occurrence not some tidbit from some website.

Comparing engine oil to brake fluid is nonsensical, at least to me.

Motor oil brakes down specifically as designed because it does s lot of designed work such as lubrication, cooling, etc

Brake oil only provides an hydraulic component.

Using a quality product and keeping it sealed and stored properly I move is far more responsible thing to do.

Will changing your brake fluid hurt? Not if you do it properly. But please stop with the scare tactics and googled links.

I just have a question for all of una on the change your fluid bandwagon, are you this fastidious in regards to all the other myriad of preventative maintenance items in you owners manual?

Do you check and adjust your headlights, do you do a safety inspection, a smog inspection, do you adjust your suspension at the specified intervals or you just wait till your tires start wearing, do you have a crack on your windshield that you haven't replaced? What about shocks and tie rod ends?

Isn't it the same Nairaland where folks boast proudly of how they ignore the CEL and just keep driving.

Changing or not changing yoru brake fluid is the least of the auto care that should be on peoples mind.

erico2k2:
lol guy you funny die, but on a serious note,did you replace the radiator fluid with proper one or just water?

Trust me now, I replaced all with the recommended fluids

A common practice of mechanics in some mechanic workshops is to dip their finger or some other absorbent in brake fluid in order to use the same to loosen tight nuts... this is not proper, it will contaminate the brake fluid which will affect its function, if this has been done, two issues arise, opening the cap allows it to absorb moisture and also can introduce pollutants.

If this has happened to you, consider replacing the fluid and keeping a can of brake fluid and enforcing a don't-go-there policy!

Like someone said, a car that moves, also needs to be able to stop.

Contaminating the brake fluid can compromise the braking system

IdaraCHODB: A common practice of mechanics in some mechanic workshops is to dip their finger or some other absorbent in brake fluid in order to use the same to loosen tight nuts... this is not proper, it will contaminate the brake fluid which will affect its function, if this has been done, two issues arise, opening the cap allows it to absorb moisture and also can introduce pollutants.

If this has happened to you, consider replacing the fluid and keeping a can of brake fluid and enforcing a don't-go-there policy!

Like someone said, a car that moves, also needs to be able to stop.

Contaminating the brake fluid can compromise the braking system

So the requirement to change the brake fluid is due to contamination by inept mechanics.

There are specific tests, methods and equipment that you can use to determine if your brake fluid needs to be flushed. You just don't flush them willy nilly. The simplest is to boil a sample of the fluid you collect when you bleed your brake. The boiling point decides if its time for a fluid change. But like you said if "Egbon Ramoni" has dipped his filthy shop rag in your master cylinder then you ought to change the fluid.

Picture taken from Peugeot 406 owners manual.




Like I said earlier, its a choice to play with ones lives and innocents ones as well, because Nairalanders seem to know better than manufacturers of the cars they drive.


Ikenna

4 days ago, i gave my car to a friend to check and immediately he drove it, he told me the brake is not as active as it should be even though i did not feel it so, he brought out a tester (I dont know the name) and tested the fluid, it showed red. He went to his own car and tested it, his own showed an orange colour, he then went and brought out a new can and it tested green, he told me the fliud in my car is contaminated and that over time, it can absorb moisture and needed to be completely removed and replaced with a new one. Thus began the process of bleeding out the entire liquid. Before now, i have never done that. Now i am wiser.

jaibang: 4 days ago, i gave my car to a friend to check and immediately he drove it, he told me the brake is not as active as it should be even though i did not feel it so, he brought out a tester (I dont know the name) and tested the fluid, it showed red. He went to his own car and tested it, his own showed an orange colour, he then went and brought out a new can and it tested green, he told me the fliud in my car is contaminated and that over time, it can absorb moisture and needed to be completely removed and replaced with a new one. Thus began the process of bleeding out the entire liquid. Before now, i have never done that. Now i am wiser.

He may have used: 1. An optical refractometer OR 2. a Chemical test strip OR 3. an Electronic brake fluid tester.

You can read more here: TESTING BRAKE FLUID

Since you can't tell how badly contaminated brake fluid is by its appearance alone (unless the fluid is full of rust or is muddy brown), the fluid should be tested unless you are changing it for preventive maintenance or as part of a brake job.

There are three ways to check the condition of the brake fluid:

optical refractometer for checking brake fluid
An optical refractometer will clearly show the amount of moisture in the brake fluid. A small drop of fluid is placed in the tester, then the tester is held up to a light to read the amount of contamination. This tester is extremely accurate and shows both the percent of moisture and the fluid's boiling point. A source for this type of tool is Misco or Reichert.



Chemical test strips. A chemical test strip made by Phoenix Systems called "Strip Dip" can reveal the condition of the corrosion inhibitors in the brake fluid. The FASCAR chemicals react to the presence of copper in the fluid. The test strip changes color to reveal the condition of the fluid. When copper levels reach 100, it indicates the corrosion inhibitors in the fluid are getting low and that the remainins service life of the brake fluid is limited. If the copper level is 200 or higher, the corrosion inhibitors are worn out and the fluid needs to be changed now.

. . . . .

Electronic brake fluid testers measure the fluid's boiling temperature. The test takes only about a minute and is quite accurate. If the fluid's boiling temperature is getting dangerously low, replacement is recommended to minimize the risks of pedal fade caused by fluid boil. Sources for electronic brake fluid testers include Alba Diagnostics, MISCO and OTC.

SOURCE: http://www.aa1car.com/library/bfluid.htm

Thank you to helping me confirm i wasn't crying wolf when there is none. My brake failed (or faded) 200 miles into a 400 mile journey. No leakages, no worn pads, no sign that anything was wrong until after an extremely heavy braking session while racing away from the scene of a robbery. But I had read aplenty about brake failure and brake fading just the week before so I knew what had happened. I shared the story because there is nothing new under the sun, if it happened to me, it has happened to others, and will continue to happen.

Now we're talking.

There are specific tests that one needs to do to check if brake fluid needs to be changed, not the hand wringing old wives scare tactics.

Sure, manufacturers have specific recommendations for owners to do so that stuff don't break and you have a warranty claim. It's that simple.

If someone makes one panic stop and suffers total break failure then it is not due to brake fluid life but an overall lack of maintenance of the brake system as a whole.

It's good to share information and for us to discuss stuff but just because someone posts something doesn't mean that it will be taken as a bible. Some of us have been around cars longer than some have been alive.

YMMV.