CityNG:

What fun is beating a Corolla with a Corvette?

The fun, at least for me, was beating Corvettes, Vipers in my lowly 4cyl Mitsubishi Evo.

I like what the OP did, if he did it, but the gains I am not sure of until he shows me dyno slips.

Ok, i now understand, for the fun of it. but what if the mechanic mess up the whole thing after all the parts buying and selling? Except the mechanic worth his onions.

lonelydora:
Ok, i now understand, for the fun of it. but what if the mechanic mess up the whole thing after all the parts buying and selling? Except the mechanic worth his onions.

I don't know about Nigeria but high performance upgrade shops are a cottage industry over here.

This is all common stuff here.

Once i noticed that i was going to get incited into some kind of temperamental flare up, i had to play matured and went back to my work since i'm well behaved and wouldnt want to be degenerated into this kind of behavioral decadence again as i sensed that some people were more interested in hurting than addressing the topic.

Albeit, as civility has set in, Nigeria is expecting, or better put it, 22 car manufacturing companies are coming to the country , and you know what this means? To say the least, by analogy, credit facilities must have to sprang up as it is elsewhere with similar development; for the younger generations, tuning centres inevitably will erupts like vulcanoe in eruptions, both fake and real, and conscious mister must be able to get first hand info to all these mods to be properly equipped for this anticipated evolution. So i brought up this experience of mine for us to share so that we do not learn the hard way with hardknocks like i did sometime ago before i brought up a thread on "Revamping Your old car to Absolute Restoration,https://www.nairaland.com/1438869/revamping-old-car-absolute-restoration". Yes, the metaphors may have been a bit over exaggerated due to the ecstasy of the state of mind as at the time of writing but was not overstated and were factual all the way, yes we may not have had dynamos to test those result neither were we interested in any extra budgeted approach because we needed to document something, neither did we ever taught of spilling the beans in any forum but yet it worked as perceived, it was just a product of pure fun. They may have been a misrepresentations of opinion/typo as someone rightfully spotted out. Emphasy may have been on after market as a way of cutting down cost, an approach i have been using over the years for my repairs and mods/tunings, good example is in my w201 Benz 190,the conquerer and in my w202.We always took advantage of our well vested after markets products of good quality/affordability than even the new ones in our markets.

I am even more interested in making aware/defining the terms that embodies these whole industry, with hope that someone would be interested and go a step further to assume and finance/invest in such an industry, not for me but for himself and our dear country and for the benefit of enthusiast too. Thank God we are in hols at the moment, more is coming soon.

Why dont we start by understanding basic Horse power increasing tips, even if we may have known them before:

• Stuff more into each cylinder - If you can cram more air (and therefore fuel) into a cylinder of a given size, you can get more power from the cylinder (in the same way that you would by increasing the size of the cylinder). Turbo chargers and super chargers pressurize the incoming air to effectively cram more air into a cylinder. Many manufacturers make aftermarket turbos and super chargers for many different cars.
• Cool the incoming air - Compressing air raises its temperature. You would like to have the coolest air possible in the cylinder because the hotter the air is the less it will expand when combustion takes place. Therefore many turbo charged and super charged cars have an intercooler. An intercooler is a special radiator through which the compressed air passes to cool it off before it enters the cylinder.
• Make everything lighter - Lightweight parts help the engine perform better. Each time a piston changes direction it uses up energy to stop the travel in one direction and start it in another. The lighter the piston, the less energy it takes. Lighter parts also allow the engine to rev faster, giving it more horsepower.
• Increase the compression ratio - Higher compression ratios produce more power, up to a point. The more you compress the air/fuel mixture, however, the more likely it is to spontaneously burst into flame (prior to the spark plug igniting it). Higher octane gasolines prevent this sort of early combustion. That is why high-performance cars generally need high octane gasoline - their engines are using higher compression ratios to get more power.
• Increase displacement - More displacement means more power because you can burn more gas during each revolution of the engine. You can increase displacement by making the cylinders bigger.
As soon as you start to try increasing displacement, you might consider the economics of buying a new high-performance engine and trying to fit it into your car -- it may be easier and cheaper!

I am not surprised at most of the comments from some posters in this thread. Conformity. Doing or saying something because every other perwon is doing or saying it, without knowing why or what you are even saying. Because, as far as Car Talk is concerned, everyone must be right. Smh!

Sometime in 2012. I received a mail from a guy in USA. said I was referred to him by some group of people over there. He needed me to help him purchase some car parts to boost his Peugeot 505 V6 power American spec. He needed me to help him buy the injection ECU and ignition ECU of Some Euro spec 505 V6 tuned aggressively, unlike the American spec 505 V6 with less power. He lived in Europe before where he used 505 V6 with the aggressive power before he relocated to US. He got to US, bought another 505 V6, this time, an American spec, unfortunately with less power.

Most Euro spec 505 V6 have 170 hp, while all 505 V6 sold in USA & Canada had 145 hp. The same engine, ZN3J. The only difference is this. The injection ECU & ignition ECU in the 170 hp and 145 hp 505 V6 differ. The injection ECU of 170 hp part number is Bosch 0 280 001 507 (Jetronic), while the 145 hp is Bosch Bosch 0 280 001 506 (Jetronic). Then, the 170 hp ignition ECU part is Bosch 0 227 400 121, while the 145 hp is Bosch 0 227 400 120. Of course, mine have the 170 hp ECUs. Note the difference on the last 3 figures: 506 vs 507 and 120 vs 121. Aside the last 3 figures in each part numbers, the rest of the figures are the same.

Now, the guy sent me a link of where the discussion took place. He posted in a forum, that he didn't like how his 505 V6 he bought in US was underpowered, compared to one he owned when he lived in Europe. The forum members explain to him the reason, that the Euro spec had more power than the American spec. They also told him I once mentioned in that forum the difference in the injection and ignition ECU part numbers of the 170 & 145 hp ZN3J powered 505s. Some where of the opinion that ECUs would not be the reason for the higher hp in one than the other. Some believed there could be some differences in the cylinder heads, like the camshafts and the rest, so swapping ECUs would not increase any power, rather he should modify the engine mechanically to gain those extra hp. Well, he went ahead and contacted me off the forum, privately to help him source for the ECUs in mine in Nigeria. He sent me some money, I got him those 507 & 121 ECUs and sent to him.

He got the ECUs, swapped them and gave us feed back on the forum, because at that time, I have joined the discussion in that thread in the forum. According to him, the car, or rather, the engine became more responsive at every touch of the accelerator pedal. It became quicker and sharper in acceleration. He excitedly told us in the forum the development how happy he was for deciding to go ahead to try the 170 hp ECUs without modifying any other thing on the car. Though, he said with those 170 hp ECUs, the car would rough idle, but will rev smoothly and responsively when accelerated. But as soon as its on idle, it would start to rough idle. At that point, I told him, from the workshop manual, the ECUs with 170 hp, or rather, the 505 V6 with 170 hp don't run with Catalytic converters and/or oxygen sensors as factory designed. Unfortunately, his have the catalytic converter and oxygen sensor. Though, we advised him to check the fuel pressure and other stuffs, incase they are not good enough to supply what those aggressively designed ECUs needed.

To cut the story short, he told us he wouldn't mind those rough idling because the extra power gain was all he wanted and he got it. Probably what he gained was not not up to the 170 hp, but it was good enough for him. Last year, he sent me mail that he had to relocate to Europe again and had to sell the 505. Though I didn't ask if he sold the car with the 170 hp ECUs or with the factory 145 hp incase he would need the 170 hp ECUs again, because he said in the mail that he would search for another 505 V6 as soon as he gets back to Europe.

The summary, that something is impossible to you to attain does not make it standard that its impossible. If the guy had conformed to opinions of some forum members, he wouldn't have succeeded.

To the topic, I dont know about the 2 BMWs engines and their injection systems. So I can't tell if swapping the engine ECUs of both will make deference. Whether it gained up to the expected hp or not is secondary, because there was change in power. In this case, more power. Of course, if dyno tested, one would know how much it gained.

As for the wheel and Tyre sizes, well I really don't know. But I do know that Peugeot 505 V6 Euro spec with 170 hp have factory wheel size of 195/60 R15, while 505 V6 American spec with 145 hp have 205/55 R15 as standard, especially the 1989 model. If it has anything to do with the power, I wouldn't know.


Ikenna

Out here amongst people that take cars seriously (not just latching on to a marque with wild abandon), when you make an outlandish claim then you need to submit dyno slips.

Bit don't get your undies in a twist when you are called out.

That's the thing with the web, pun, any yahoo can weave a story.

Ikenna351:
I am not surprised at most of the comments from some posters in this thread. Conformity. Doing or saying something because every other perwon is doing or saying it, without knowing why or what you are even saying. Because, as far as Car Talk is concerned, everyone must be right. Smh!

Sometime in 2012. I received a mail from a guy in USA. said I was referred to him by some group of people over there. He needed me to help him purchase some car parts to boost his Peugeot 505 V6 power American spec. He needed me to help him buy the injection ECU and ignition ECU of Some Euro spec 505 V6 tuned aggressively, unlike the American spec 505 V6 with less power. He lived in Europe before where he used 505 V6 with the aggressive power before he relocated to US. He got to US, bought another 505 V6, this time, an American spec, unfortunately with less power.

Most Euro spec 505 V6 have 170 hp, while all 505 V6 sold in USA & Canada had 145 hp. The same engine, ZN3J. The only difference is this. The injection ECU & ignition ECU in the 170 hp and 145 hp 505 V6 differ. The injection ECU of 170 hp part number is Bosch 0 280 001 507 (Jetronic), while the 145 hp is Bosch Bosch 0 280 001 506 (Jetronic). Then, the 170 hp ignition ECU part is Bosch 0 227 400 121, while the 145 hp is Bosch 0 227 400 120. Of course, mine have the 170 hp ECUs. Note the difference on the last 3 figures: 506 vs 507 and 120 vs 121. Aside the last 3 figures in each part numbers, the rest of the figures are the same.

Now, the guy sent me a link of where the discussion took place. He posted in a forum, that he didn't like how his 505 V6 he bought in US was underpowered, compared to one he owned when he lived in Europe. The forum members explain to him the reason, that the Euro spec had more power than the American spec. They also told him I once mentioned in that forum the difference in the injection and ignition ECU part numbers of the 170 & 145 hp ZN3J powered 505s. Some where of the opinion that ECUs would not be the reason for the higher hp in one than the other. Some believed there could be some differences in the cylinder heads, like the camshafts and the rest, so swapping ECUs would not increase any power, rather he should modify the engine mechanically to gain those extra hp. Well, he went ahead and contacted me off the forum, privately to help him source for the ECUs in mine in Nigeria. He sent me some money, I got him those 507 & 121 ECUs and sent to him.

He got the ECUs, swapped them and gave us feed back on the forum, because at that time, I have joined the discussion in that thread in the forum. According to him, the car, or rather, the engine became more responsive at every touch of the accelerator pedal. It became quicker and sharper in acceleration. He excitedly told us in the forum the development how happy he was for deciding to go ahead to try the 170 hp ECUs without modifying any other thing on the car. Though, he said with those 170 hp ECUs, the car would rough idle, but will rev smoothly and responsively when accelerated. But as soon as its on idle, it would start to rough idle. At that point, I told him, from the workshop manual, the ECUs with 170 hp, or rather, the 505 V6 with 170 hp don't run with Catalytic converters and/or oxygen sensors as factory designed. Unfortunately, his have the catalytic converter and oxygen sensor. Though, we advised him to check the fuel pressure and other stuffs, incase they are not good enough to supply what those aggressively designed ECUs needed.

To cut the story short, he told us he wouldn't mind those rough idling because the extra power gain was all he wanted and he got it. Probably what he gained was not not up to the 170 hp, but it was good enough for him. Last year, he sent me mail that he had to relocate to Europe again and had to sell the 505. Though I didn't ask if he sold the car with the 170 hp ECUs or with the factory 145 hp incase he would need the 170 hp ECUs again, because he said in the mail that he would search for another 505 V6 as soon as he gets back to Europe.

The summary, that something is impossible to you to attain does not make it standard that its impossible. If the guy had conformed to opinions of some forum members, he wouldn't have succeeded.

To the topic, I dont know about the 2 BMWs engines and their injection systems. So I can't tell if swapping the engine ECUs of both will make deference. Whether it gained up to the expected hp or not is secondary, because there was change in power. In this case, more power. Of course, if dyno tested, one would know how much it gained.

As for the wheel and Tyre sizes, well I really don't know. But I do know that Peugeot 505 V6 Euro spec with 170 hp have factory wheel size of 195/60 R15, while 505 V6 American spec with 145 hp have 205/55 R15 as standard, especially the 1989 model. If it has anything to do with the power, I wouldn't know.


Ikenna

189hp is what a 325i offers not 178 as earlier stated by auhanson, unless he meant a 323i with the m52 engine,which is in the 170hp realm.
@auhonson,
please do not be offended at how subscribers ran all over your comment, like you have said we are all here to learn. But we also ask questions too.
@ikenna,
what you have stated is a little different from the topic because your narration was on the same car, one American and the other Euro...
please do not mind my reference to BMWs.
it's the same way the American e36 m3 is different from the euro m3. The former makes 240hp while the latter churns out 286hp. Yes,the American spec m3 can be modified to reach hp levels of the euro version under a series of modifications-
software flash,evosport cam, differentials,larger injectors, rear exhaust, m50 intake manifold etc.
but this subject of contention is about having improved a 150hp 320i performance standards to that of a 325i's (having 189hp) and the results obtained matched or excelled that of the 325i's performance. Looking at the modifications employed, it would certainly raise questions like a few subscribers had asked.
when I got my 320i, I made extensive research on how to improve it's power, I even have a write-up on it somewhere in a diary, but I was advised to discontinue the idea by members of other forum who have tried it out claiming only little gained. Like a pyrrhic victory of some sort. Spend so much for little. An m50b25 engine would cost about N50k or less.
it may look visibly same as the m50 in the 320i but the internals are completely different.
when I had emission issues with my 320i https://www.nairaland.com/1142327/bmw-320i-little-issues some years ago,in the course of troubleshooting for possible causes, i tried out a lot of stuffs, replaced the 320i ECU with the 325i's. It didn't fit. The engine couldn't even run, the whole car was shuddering and I quickly reverted to to the original ECU.
The 320i is not that surplus to mods (i may not know all anyways),
as for tires, they don't increase hp, performance tires enhance the handling, give good grips while launching or taking bends and many more...what's the use of having a 280bhp car without the appropriate grip for good handling?
The 325i is not the same as the 320i, this doesn't compare to your analysis Ikenna.

Ikenna351:
I am not surprised at most of the comments from some posters in this thread. Conformity. Doing or saying something because every other perwon is doing or saying it, without knowing why or what you are even saying. Because, as far as Car Talk is concerned, everyone must be right. Smh!

Sometime in 2012. I received a mail from a guy in USA. said I was referred to him by some group of people over there. He needed me to help him purchase some car parts to boost his Peugeot 505 V6 power American spec. He needed me to help him buy the injection ECU and ignition ECU of Some Euro spec 505 V6 tuned aggressively, unlike the American spec 505 V6 with less power. He lived in Europe before where he used 505 V6 with the aggressive power before he relocated to US. He got to US, bought another 505 V6, this time, an American spec, unfortunately with less power.

Most Euro spec 505 V6 have 170 hp, while all 505 V6 sold in USA & Canada had 145 hp. The same engine, ZN3J. The only difference is this. The injection ECU & ignition ECU in the 170 hp and 145 hp 505 V6 differ. The injection ECU of 170 hp part number is Bosch 0 280 001 507 (Jetronic), while the 145 hp is Bosch Bosch 0 280 001 506 (Jetronic). Then, the 170 hp ignition ECU part is Bosch 0 227 400 121, while the 145 hp is Bosch 0 227 400 120. Of course, mine have the 170 hp ECUs. Note the difference on the last 3 figures: 506 vs 507 and 120 vs 121. Aside the last 3 figures in each part numbers, the rest of the figures are the same.

Now, the guy sent me a link of where the discussion took place. He posted in a forum, that he didn't like how his 505 V6 he bought in US was underpowered, compared to one he owned when he lived in Europe. The forum members explain to him the reason, that the Euro spec had more power than the American spec. They also told him I once mentioned in that forum the difference in the injection and ignition ECU part numbers of the 170 & 145 hp ZN3J powered 505s. Some where of the opinion that ECUs would not be the reason for the higher hp in one than the other. Some believed there could be some differences in the cylinder heads, like the camshafts and the rest, so swapping ECUs would not increase any power, rather he should modify the engine mechanically to gain those extra hp. Well, he went ahead and contacted me off the forum, privately to help him source for the ECUs in mine in Nigeria. He sent me some money, I got him those 507 & 121 ECUs and sent to him.

He got the ECUs, swapped them and gave us feed back on the forum, because at that time, I have joined the discussion in that thread in the forum. According to him, the car, or rather, the engine became more responsive at every touch of the accelerator pedal. It became quicker and sharper in acceleration. He excitedly told us in the forum the development how happy he was for deciding to go ahead to try the 170 hp ECUs without modifying any other thing on the car. Though, he said with those 170 hp ECUs, the car would rough idle, but will rev smoothly and responsively when accelerated. But as soon as its on idle, it would start to rough idle. At that point, I told him, from the workshop manual, the ECUs with 170 hp, or rather, the 505 V6 with 170 hp don't run with Catalytic converters and/or oxygen sensors as factory designed. Unfortunately, his have the catalytic converter and oxygen sensor. Though, we advised him to check the fuel pressure and other stuffs, incase they are not good enough to supply what those aggressively designed ECUs needed.

To cut the story short, he told us he wouldn't mind those rough idling because the extra power gain was all he wanted and he got it. Probably what he gained was not not up to the 170 hp, but it was good enough for him. Last year, he sent me mail that he had to relocate to Europe again and had to sell the 505. Though I didn't ask if he sold the car with the 170 hp ECUs or with the factory 145 hp incase he would need the 170 hp ECUs again, because he said in the mail that he would search for another 505 V6 as soon as he gets back to Europe.

The summary, that something is impossible to you to attain does not make it standard that its impossible. If the guy had conformed to opinions of some forum members, he wouldn't have succeeded.

To the topic, I dont know about the 2 BMWs engines and their injection systems. So I can't tell if swapping the engine ECUs of both will make deference. Whether it gained up to the expected hp or not is secondary, because there was change in power. In this case, more power. Of course, if dyno tested, one would know how much it gained.

As for the wheel and Tyre sizes, well I really don't know. But I do know that Peugeot 505 V6 Euro spec with 170 hp have factory wheel size of 195/60 R15, while 505 V6 American spec with 145 hp have 205/55 R15 as standard, especially the 1989 model. If it has anything to do with the power, I wouldn't know.


Ikenna

Below is the link to the thread about the story I mentioned above


http://www.505turbo.com/forum/index.php?/topic/2265-more-oomph-for-my-v6/



Ikenna

Ikenna351:



Below is the link to the thread about the story I mentioned above


http://www.505turbo.com/forum/index.php?/topic/2265-more-oomph-for-my-v6/


Ikenna

no doubt ikenna, your wisdom in these things cannot be controverted.

I edited my comment, two comments above, where I had the emission issues and did a few trials, including testing different ECUs.

@Yungbos, the shudder you got was as a result of differential in the exhaust and oxygen sensors , as well as the manifold system , else you wouldn't have wanted to remove the 325i ecu from that car again.Your oxygen sensors were not actually relating properly with the ecu, little things like this should be taken into consideration when doing modifications else u'll be disappointed. You see, just like someone said , this things can be very discouraging if you dont do them right, here i mean compatibility. If you swapped 320 ecu wt that of 325, you need to do the corresponding things to the inlet and outlet emission systems too if you should have it right, internal components of the engine not withstanding. You need to obey the automobile laws , the essence of the basics tips up there.When i modified my w201 mercedes about some 7 years ago, i made sure that i did not only have the corresponding exhaust systems but lighter nexus stainless one too, with the systems of couplers that were installed under my headers to boost smooth performances too with a new ECU. I went a step further to reinforce my suspension system by buying set of performance springs(tough rigid struts), though that was not very necessary with Mercedes Benz.

Simple things like ecu flashing can add little horses to your car , you could even buy performance ecu(though you have to look out for fake ones too) to boost your car a little further as well. Coming to your action , if you had installed the exhaust system for e325i or performance exhaust systems and the corresponding oxygen sensors to take care of the fuel air regulation for the inlet and the outlet emssions system compatibility, you wouldnt have had the shuddering and so on, except something went wrong with the car

The bottomline is that sometimes you've got to experiment on things as your mind direct you , but keep to the laws governing specific sciences, forget about the forum and the internet. I knew about compatibilty stuffs in the days i use to swap RAMs and CPUs in the computer systems for maximum power gains, because i use to swap a lot.

Ikenna351:
I am not surprised at most of the comments from some posters in this thread. Conformity. Doing or saying something because every other perwon is doing or saying it, without knowing why or what you are even saying. Because, as far as Car Talk is concerned, everyone must be right. Smh!

Sometime in 2012. I received a mail from a guy in USA. said I was referred to him by some group of people over there. He needed me to help him purchase some car parts to boost his Peugeot 505 V6 power American spec. He needed me to help him buy the injection ECU and ignition ECU of Some Euro spec 505 V6 tuned aggressively, unlike the American spec 505 V6 with less power. He lived in Europe before where he used 505 V6 with the aggressive power before he relocated to US. He got to US, bought another 505 V6, this time, an American spec, unfortunately with less power.

Most Euro spec 505 V6 have 170 hp, while all 505 V6 sold in USA & Canada had 145 hp. The same engine, ZN3J. The only difference is this. The injection ECU & ignition ECU in the 170 hp and 145 hp 505 V6 differ. The injection ECU of 170 hp part number is Bosch 0 280 001 507 (Jetronic), while the 145 hp is Bosch Bosch 0 280 001 506 (Jetronic). Then, the 170 hp ignition ECU part is Bosch 0 227 400 121, while the 145 hp is Bosch 0 227 400 120. Of course, mine have the 170 hp ECUs. Note the difference on the last 3 figures: 506 vs 507 and 120 vs 121. Aside the last 3 figures in each part numbers, the rest of the figures are the same.

He got the ECUs, swapped.. the engine became more responsive at every touch of the accelerator pedal. It became quicker and sharper in acceleration. He excitedly told us in the forum the development how happy he was for deciding to go ahead to try the 170 hp ECUs without modifying any other thing on the car. Though, he said with those 170 hp ECUs, the car would rough idle, but will rev smoothly and responsively when accelerated. But as soon as its on idle, it would start to rough idle. At that point, I told him, from the workshop manual, the ECUs with 170 hp, or rather, the 505 V6 with 170 hp don't run with Catalytic converters and/or oxygen sensors as factory designed. Unfortunately, his have the catalytic converter and oxygen sensor. Though, we advised him to check the fuel pressure and other stuffs, incase they are not good enough to supply what those aggressively designed ECUs needed.

The summary, that something is impossible to you to attain does not make it standard that its impossible. If the guy had conformed to opinions of some forum members, he wouldn't have succeeded.

As for the wheel and Tyre sizes, well I really don't know. But I do know that Peugeot 505 V6 Euro spec with 170 hp have factory wheel size of 195/60 R15, while 505 V6 American spec with 145 hp have 205/55 R15 as standard, especially the 1989 model. If it has anything to do with the power, I wouldn't know...

@ Ikenna, You are right, if he had disconnected those oxygen sensors perhabs he wouldn't have had the the rough idling. Oxygen sensors because they relate with ecus to regulate the amount of fuel/air supplies to the system, they play a vital role in the ecu upgrade.

As for the tires, bigger wheels gives some level of gains on the highway, though it may alter your speedometer, as well as performances tires



I know the expectation of some was that i should have simply swapped the 320i engine with that of the 325i, the ideal thing to have done, then with those modifications for compatibility sake. But here we were talking of budget, the 325i engine priced then was 47,000.00 and he wasn't ready for such upgrade. You see in life there're always some gray areas, everything isn't always straight.

Ok then, some pretty long years ago, in my secondary school days , my Dad bought this peogeot 504 GR, then 504 was invoke, but when he test drove his friend 504 evo, he didnt like his 504 again so he called his mechanic and demanded for the installation of a double carburetor to his GR 504 and swapping of sleeve and piston system to that of the evo 504.The understanding here is that the 504's al have the same engine block, same thing i meant with the BMW 320,323 and 325 but not the differentials in the engine components. He was also made to understand that the evo 504 carried 2.0 litre engine just like the GL, and that the GL sleeve and piston will do the same work. he gave a go ahead and that was done. Mehn!!, to cut the log story short, the Gr 504 with the double cab was extra ordinary in terms of performance, my dad used that car untill this normal thing, rust common among 504 finised the car for him just some few yrs ago after some couple of accidents.. So these things work if you do them right , else you will never believe it.

Well, i dont think it was bad for me to bring up this awareness because i couldnt have dyno data to prove my point, but how i wish someone will dare it and dyno test them with data to prove the actual gains derived in the horsepower. When the guy said his car was more responsive and better than his friends after these mods, i believe him, because this is the same guy who was complaining before then. like i siad earlier, the horeses may not have been as high as i stated but i believe that it's been very very much appreciative , left for someone to try it and give us the data