Jesus Lied :'( - Religion - Nairaland
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I changed my mind. / Jesus Lied / Jesus Lied (2) (3) (4)
| Jesus Lied :'( by Pr0ton: 6:10pm On Oct 06, 2014 |
Apostle Peter claims  " He committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips . " Apocryphal, right?  Gonna leave Enoch (His own is not very convincing, I guess) The problem ... " Now when the LORD was about to take Elijah up to heaven by a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal. " 2 nd Kings 2:1 " And as they still went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven " 2 nd Kings 2:11 But the Omniscient Jesus ...  " And no man has ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven John 3:13 Apart from the lie Jesus told here, I can't imagine the absurdity in His words. He was on earth speaking with Nicodemus yet said "the Son of man who is in heaven" Maybe a confession afterall  1 Like |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by lomprico(m): 6:28pm On Oct 06, 2014 |
Trouble sidon yanga go wake am! 1 Like |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by zenith4biz(m): 10:11pm On Oct 06, 2014 |
Pr0ton:[color=green]These verses teach specifically that Elijah was taken up into heaven. Again, this might be a different heaven. Others have written and questioned how these men could be in heaven before the shedding ofthe blood of Christ. Yet, I might add that Satan has access to heaven--at least some part of it (Job 1:6). Perhaps these men did not yet have full access to the glories of heaven or were not able to enterthe throne room. Obviously, I am not certain here. But the Bible seems to put them in heaven when they were taken up by God.This brings us back to the original problem. If no man had ascended up to heaven until Christ ascended, how could Enoch and Elijah be there? At the least, according to the plain statements of scripture, "no man hath ascended up to heaven" even though Elijah "went up by a whirlwind into heaven." Is this a contradiction? Not at all.The Bible does not say that Elijah ascended to heaven. It says that he was taken up. The word 'ascend' means to go up. It pictures someone or something thatgoes up of its own strength. The word 'ascend' comes from the Latin word for 'climb' and it literally means to climb up. We speak of someone ascending the stairs. The first biblical use of the word is inGenesis 28:12where Jacob sees "a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of itreached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it."John 3:13does not teach that no one has ever seen or entered heaven. It teaches that no man ever climbed up into heaven by his own power. The only one who has ever ascended to heaven in His own strength is the One who originated in heaven and came down to earth before Heascended. I hope this helps exp 2 Likes |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by Pr0ton: 7:33am On Oct 07, 2014 |
Don't distort English words here. You said it yourself that ascend means 'climb'. Don't you think that going strictly by that word won't be rationally applicable to Jesus but more applicable to Elijah? Elijah went up to heaven; Elijah ascended to heaven what's the difference? Using one part of dictionary meaning ascend also means to 'rise'. Well, was Elijah rising or not? Rockets move up vertically, but aeroplane does its own a kindof horizontally, yet both of them are said to rise. I think that will suffice to illustrate my point. Using a whirlwind doesn't change anything; both Elijah and the whirlwind ascended/went up to heaven. If you must argue about this then your saying something like this--boy A rode a motorcycle to Lagos, but Boy B trekked to Lagos therefore both of them didn't go to Lagos. If Jesus referring was to a different heaven He would have specified, but He didn't-- He was talking about heaven for real. Where's Enoch after God took him Gen5:24 floating in space or in heaven? Eccl 12:7  2 Likes |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by Pr0ton: 7:34am On Oct 07, 2014 |
^^^^ to Zenith4biz |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by zenith4biz(m): 10:30pm On Oct 08, 2014 |
Pr0ton:The Idea in Brief According to the Hebrew Bible, there are at least two people who have ascended into heaven: Enoch and Elijah. In the Christian New Testament, Jesus made the emphatic statement that no one (οὐδεὶς) had ever ascended into heaven with the exception of the one who had descended from heaven: that is, Jesus himself, who was to be "lifted up" like the bronze serpent of old. That is, this reference to the bronze serpent indicated life from the dead, since those stung with the serpent's venom (with reference to sin that causes death) had died with the exception of those who saw the "lifted up" bronze serpent, and were saved. Jesus therefore was making reference to someone who was "lifted up" from the dead, and who therefore ascended into heaven (unlike Elijah and Enoch, who never died), and upon whom those dead-spiritually would be saved. The Christian New Testament amplifies this meaning to include not only the physical ascension of the body of Jesus into heaven, but also to refer to Jesus as someone whose eternal life (which had first descended from heaven to become flesh) had died, when the body of Jesus was broken (from this eternal life and therefore separated), only to be reunited in the same PERSON in order to return (or ascend back) to heaven . The bottom line therefore is that only one PERSON had ever descended from heaven, who became flesh and then died, only to ascend back into heaven. The idea therefore is not about who were the first human beings to ascend into heaven (or even about people who were raised from the dead, which were many), but about which human being was the first to enter heaven as the "first born" from the dead. The imagery of coming-down-first-from-heaven forces eternal life into the picture, so the "first born" is not only the resurrection of the body from the dead, but the reuniting of that body with its eternal life (divine nature), in order to ascend back to heaven. Unlike Elijah and Enoch (or even Moses if we compare Jude 1:9andMark 9:4-5), Jesus therefore was the first to ascend into heaven from the dead, whose death was not only physical but spiritual as well -- thus He is the "first born"PERSON from the dead to ascend into heaven 3 Likes |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by Nobody: 6:51am On Oct 09, 2014 |
*whistling Ice Prince's Somebody Lied" 1 Like |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by Ajibam: 7:10am On Oct 09, 2014 |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by alexis(m): 7:50am On Oct 09, 2014 |
Pr0ton: Islamic and other secular critics usually post this question. I believe someone else has already provided this link. Read it for your response: http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/q_ascension.htm Most importantly, you need to do more Biblical research and study to understand the term "Son of Man" 1 Like |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by gr8david(m): 8:14am On Oct 09, 2014 |
[quote author=Pr0ton post=26930291]Don't distort English words here. You said it yourself that ascend means 'climb'. Don't you think that going strictly by that word won't be rationally applicable to Jesus but more applicable to Elijah? Elijah went up to heaven; Elijah ascended to heaven what's the difference? Using one part of dictionary meaning ascend also means to 'rise'. Well, was Elijah rising or not? Rockets move up vertically, but aeroplane does its own a kindof horizontally, yet both of them are said to rise. I think that will suffice to illustrate my point. Using a whirlwind doesn't change anything; both Elijah and the whirlwind ascended/went up to heaven. If you must argue about this then your saying something like this--boy A rode a motorcycle to Lagos, but Boy B trekked to Lagos therefore both of them didn't go to Lagos. If Jesus referring was to a different heaven He would have specified, but He didn't-- He was talking about heaven for real. Where's Enoch after God took him Gen5:24 floating in space or in heaven? Eccl 12:7 The problem you are having here is "interpretation" remember that Bible was not originally written in English, if u wanna get clear understanding of some statement in Bible; U need Holy spirit, Understand Greek n Latin |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by Pr0ton: 11:28am On Oct 10, 2014 |
So Zenith4biz, you no longer capitalize on the use of ascend. You've changed the dimension of your argument using 'descend'. Well, if refuting your assertions would only give rise to new arguments instead of admission I'm afraid I might not be interested. There are two problems with your answer. The first is if I go out and present this case to ten Christians I'm very sure I'll get ten different explanations that don't correlate with yours: contradictions among Christians, and we know that contradiction can not be true. The second problem is that your answer shows a clear circumvention based on allegations. Jesus had no such intention of what you claim when He was stating the 'fact' in John 3:13. The statement is clear No man has ascended up to heaven Jesus stated this as a fact. No man has ever ascended up to heaven. but he that came down from heaven Obviously after resurrection Jesus was still a man. Remember He showed Thomas those wounds which a ghost couldn't have. |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by Pr0ton: 11:33am On Oct 10, 2014 |
alexis: I know the term "Son of man" isn't labelled to Jesus only. Ezekiel is also called Son of man in Ezekiel 4:16-17(?) But in the context of John13 the Son of man is apparently Jesus. |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by Pr0ton: 11:38am On Oct 10, 2014 |
gr8david: Really? |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by yolobabe(f): 3:02pm On Oct 10, 2014 |
I only have one thing to say What if Jesus is real?? Wat if hell and heaven is real?? Wat if God is real?? And its when u die u find out How would u feel??............'cause u certainly won't go to heaven John 3:3. *i tell u d truth,unless u are born again u cannot see d kingdom of God* Sha...............no need to defend Jesus cause He doesn't need us to......believe wateva u want |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by alexis(m): 4:35pm On Oct 10, 2014 |
Pr0ton: Read Daniel 7:13-14 and tell me if it was Ezekial or Jesus that is prophesied in that verse |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by Nobody: 4:38pm On Oct 10, 2014 |
yolobabe: 1 Like
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| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by Pr0ton: 5:32pm On Oct 10, 2014 |
alexis: It doesn't specify if it's Jesus or Ezekiel. Since the term 'Son of man' isn't limited to a person so it's literally implausible to know who it's referring to because Dan 7 uses symbols for illustration. If the Son of man there is referring to Jesus it'll be a surprise that no New Testament writer referred to it as Jesus. And assuming any did, what's your point? |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by Pr0ton: 5:34pm On Oct 10, 2014 |
yolobabe: They are just impossible to exist. |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by yolobabe(f): 5:44pm On Oct 10, 2014 |
That was not the question......... Pr0ton: yolobabe: |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by Pr0ton: 5:51pm On Oct 10, 2014 |
yolobabe: Well.. That's my answer |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by yolobabe(f): 5:52pm On Oct 10, 2014 |
*sigh......anyhow |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by Pr0ton: 6:26pm On Oct 10, 2014 |
yolobabe: if in the end He existed then it wouldn't be fair to punish us, why? He didn't prove His existence, and He (being a reasonable Being) shouldn't expect a reasonable being to believe His existence without reasonable evidences. If He exists then it's we atheists He loves most. We are the ones who are more concerned about His existence. We spend more time in studying His nature, creatures and creation. If He exists then He's unhappy with you, why? I can figure that your serving God not because you love Him, but because of your own soul. 2 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by alexis(m): 6:54pm On Oct 10, 2014 |
Pr0ton: Did Ezekial call himself Son of Man? |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by Pr0ton: 7:01pm On Oct 10, 2014 |
alexis: No, God did. |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by alexis(m): 7:24pm On Oct 10, 2014 |
Pr0ton: Good, when God calls Ezekiel "son of man," it is a way of saying he is completely a man, a mere human creature in contrast to the Creator. So the term "son of man" in Ezekiel stresses Ezekiel's humility in contrast to God's glory. Daniel 7:13 uses the term "one like a son of man" when describing a person coming in glory as God on the clouds, to stress that the Messiah is both divine and human. When Jesus used the term "the Son of Man" to describe himself, Jesus was referring to Daniel 7:13, not Ezekiel's use of the term. The description “Son of Man” was a Messianic title. Jesus is the One who was given dominion and glory and a kingdom. When Jesus used this phrase, He was assigning the Son of Man prophecy to Himself. The Jews of that era would have been intimately familiar with the phrase and to whom it referred. Jesus was proclaiming Himself as the Messiah. A second meaning of the phrase “Son of Man” is that Jesus was truly a human being. God called the prophet Ezekiel “son of man” 93 times. God was simply calling Ezekiel a human being. A son of a man is a man. Jesus was fully God (John 1:1), but He was also a human being (John 1:14). First John 4:2 tells us, “This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.” Yes, Jesus was the Son of God—He was in His essence God. Yes, Jesus was also the Son of Man—He was in His essence a human being. In summary, the phrase “Son of Man” indicates that Jesus is the Messiah and that He is truly a human being. |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by Pr0ton: 10:39am On Oct 11, 2014 |
Alexis I would have held my peace if you did not say that the term 'son of man' in Dan 7:13-14 is a Messianic title. Worst of all, saying it is also referring to Jesus when the Old Testament writers never wrote anything about the Jesus of Christianity, as the New Testament writers only TWISTED scriptures in the Old Testament to fit their fabricated Jesus and religion. One is that the chapter never talks about a Messiah. You took verses 13 and 14 out of context. You should have read the explanation in the other verses. When you continue to read from verse 14 downwards you'll see that the term 'son of man' who's receiving "dominion and glory and kingdom" (14) to whom "all peoples, nations, and languages should serve" (14) is equivalent to "saints of the Most High" (18) who "received the kingdom" (18) whose "kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey them." (27) In sum, the prophecy is all about the Israelites not a Jesus who lived hundreds centuries after. |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by alexis(m): 4:33am On Oct 12, 2014 |
Pr0ton I would have held my peace if you did not say that the term 'son of man' in Dan 7:13-14 is a Messianic title. Worst of all, saying it is also referring to Jesus when the Old Testament writers never wrote anything about the Jesus of Christianity, as the New Testament writers only TWISTED scriptures in the Old Testament to fit their fabricated Jesus and religion. It's evident that you don't read Biblical history. Isaiah 7:14 and 53: 3-7 is an OT prophet that wrote about Jesus. Zechariah 9:9 is another OT prophet. The “seventy sevens” prophecy in Daniel chapter 9 predicted the precise date that Jesus, the Messiah, would be “cut off.” Isaiah 50:6 accurately describes the beating that Jesus endured. Zechariah 12:10 predicts the “piercing” of the Messiah, which occurred after Jesus died on the cross. Many more examples could be provided, but these will suffice. The Old Testament most definitely prophesies the coming of Jesus as the Messiah. One is that the chapter never talks about a Messiah. You took verses 13 and 14 out of context. You should have read the explanation in the other verses. When you continue to read from verse 14 downwards you'll see that the term 'son of man' who's receiving "dominion and glory and kingdom" (14) to whom "all peoples, nations, and languages should serve" (14) is equivalent to "saints of the Most High" (18) who "received the kingdom" (18) whose "kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey them." (27) So, who are these verses talking about? In sum, the prophecy is all about the Israelites not a Jesus who lived hundreds centuries after. Israelite s are the ones refered to in Daniel 7? |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by Weah96: 5:21am On Oct 12, 2014 |
zenith4biz: Satan has access to heaven too? Hahaha. Chai, dis man too strong. |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by timilehing(m): 6:33am On Oct 12, 2014 |
Its easier to know a young Muslim that's trying to protect his believe. They just sticks to dogmatic believes handed to them without questioning |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by Pr0ton: 6:45am On Oct 12, 2014 |
Alexis.. You accuse me of not reading Bibical history?? LOL I think you've just made the biggest mistake by quoting OT prophecies to prove the authencity of Jesus as the Messiah I'm interestingly good at prophecies you know. Isa 7 has nothing to say about Jesus. As I said earlier those guys twisted OT scriptures to fit their fabricated Jesus. Isa 7:1 talks about king Rezin and king Pekah conspiring against King Ahaz, king of Judah Isa 7:2 King Ahaz troubled Isa 7:3-6 God sends Isaiah to gee them up and assure them that the plans of the two kings "shall not stand, and shall not come to pass" (7) Isa 7:9-11 God tells "Ahaz, ask a sign of the LORD your God" to be assured of the promise. Isa 7:12 Ahaz being a gentle doesn't ask. Well then, "the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a YOUNG WOMAN shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'uel." 14 "Before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, THE LAND WHOSE TWO KINGS YOU ARE IN DREAD SHALL BE DESERED"16 |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by Pr0ton: 7:10am On Oct 12, 2014 |
Alexis Isa 53 has nothing for Jesus The chapter looks somehow alike to that of the sufferings and Jesus.. That's the neat trick in frauds anyway. Isa 53 follows what Isa 52 is saying... Isa 52:1 "awake, awake, put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean" Isa 52:9 "Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem" Isa 52:13 "Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. As many were astonished at thee; HIS VISAGE WAS SO MARRED MORE THAN ANY MAN, AND HIS FORM MORE THAN THE SONS OF MAN" Isa 52 is actually an explanation for Isa 53. The suffering servant in Isa 53 is the Israelites not Jesus! God is used to calling Israel his servant Isa 44:1, 21 49:3. He (Israel) was once forsaken 54:7. Isaiah has now brought the good news Isa 52:1-9..But Isa 53:1a |
| Re: Jesus Lied :'( by Pr0ton: 7:16am On Oct 12, 2014 |
Alexis when you study the prophecies very well you'll see that they aint for Jesus. Show me how you calculated the weeks in Dan 9 and arrived at the proof for Jesus's authencity. Later.. Off to church |
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