malvisguy212:
where in the bible does it say Christianity has a pagan origin? Evidence from the quran and hadith prove Islam is a pagan religion.

What do u understand by "pagan"?

Rilwayne001:


What makes you think your own is the best and the rest are false? which diety splitted them in the first place? what makes you think other are not possesed by holy spirit?



I dont need to, I have answered you on many occasions on this, i can't just waste my time replying you all over again.

I give you the opportunity to defend Allah.
Ask for proof and I will give you.

macof:


What do u understand by "pagan"?

pagan are idols worshippers that go against the law of there makers (God).

macof:


First of, most of the reverts did research before realizing the fraud of christianity
everything I know about Christianity was from my days as a Christian not after

Second, most reverts tend to stick it to the man who kept them in delusions for years...in this case the man is christianity

that is the point I want you to know, they failed to do research on Islam . With all the evidence in the quran that pointed to the worship of pagan, still people wanted to chose Islam ahead of Christianity, who preach to them? Bible say
In Romans 10:14
"How, then, can they call on the one they
have not believed in? And how can they
believe in the one of whom they have
not heard? And how can they hear
without someone preaching to them?"

macof:


You do realize, Mohammed fought the pagan worshipers of Allah
He sought to destroy paganism

What Muhammad did was imposed his fathers idol (which they named allah) on all pagans. The people knew allah that was worshiped in Muhammad's family before islam, hence nobody questioned him who allah was.

malvisguy212:
pagan are idols worshippers that go against the law of there makers (God).

Well that's not what a pagan is...that's how ur pastor teaches u rubbish about us

Pagans are native tribalist, people who adhere to the traditions, language, culture and spirituality of their ethnicity...these TLCS usually stretch back to thousands of years...to no definite point in time, because they follow the people as they go from one generation to the other, from one land to the other....sometimes certain aspects of their TLCS evolve, due to loss in cult and record keepers, new initiatives and innovation, assumed better understanding...

The whole world was once pagan, we all worshiped the Creator but of course in different traditions, languages and culture but spirituality remains the same
Every pagan regardless ethnicity beliefs in A creator

truthman2012:


What Muhammad did was imposed his fathers idol (which they named allah) on all pagans. The people knew allah that was worshiped in Muhammad's family before islam, hence nobody questioned him who allah was.

Lol..Which God did Ishmael the father of Arabs worshipped?

macof:


Well that's not what a pagan is...that's how ur pastor teaches u rubbish about us

Pagans are native tribalist, people who adhere to the traditions, language, culture and spirituality of their ethnicity...these TLCS usually stretch back to thousands of years...to no definite point in time, because they follow the people as they go from one generation to the other, from one land to the other....sometimes certain aspects of their TLCS evolve, due to loss in cult and record keepers, new initiatives and innovation, assumed better understanding...

The whole world was once pagan, we all worshiped the Creator but of course in different traditions, languages and culture but spirituality remains the same
Every pagan regardless ethnicity beliefs in A creator

who created you?

Nobleval:
I DON'T WANNA BE DRAWN INTO BASELESS ARGUEMENTS WITH YOU BRO,IT'S ISN'T WORTH THE TIME. So take a pill and chill out.

I won't be on this thread and see Muslims , atheists and even "christains" misinform people. You want me to take a pill and chill while u make ignorant comments. Show u are right if the Argument is baseless. Take the correction my friend.

Rilwayne001:


Lol..Which God did Ishmael the father of Arabs worshipped?

Ishmael was driven out from Abraham's family at a tender age, who might not know is father's religion well. His mother was an Egytian, who married him also to an Egytian girl. Egyptians were known to be idolaters, and they must have influenced him as a small boy.

truthman2012:


Ishmael was driven out from Abraham's family at a tender age, who might no know is father's religion well. His mother was an Egytian, who married him also to an Egytian girl. Egyptians were know to be idolaters, and they must have influenced him as a small boy.

Ishmael was 17 when he was driven out from Abraham family and I dont think a 17years old would not know and practise what his father worshipped.

Furthermore, how come it was both Isaac and Ishmael that buried Abraham? Also God bless his nation exeedingly, can God bless the nation of those who are not devoted to him?


Don't evade my questions.

Ifeann:


I won't be on this thread and see Muslims , atheists and even "christains" misinform people. You want me to take a pill and chill while u make ignorant comments. Show u are right if the Argument is baseless. Take the correction my friend.

what correction? I think you're the one making the so called ignorant comments!

Rilwayne001:


Ishmael was 17 when he was driven out from Abraham family and I dont think a 17years old would not know and practise what his father worshipped.

Furthermore, how come it was both Isaac and Ishmael that buried Abraham? Also God bless his nation exeedingly, can God bless the nation of those who are not devoted to him?


Don't evade my questions.

where do you get this from? ishmael was 17? Quote the quranic verse let see.

“And Abraham rose up early in the
morning, and took bread, and a bottle
of water, and gave it unto Hagar,
putting it on her shoulder, and the
child, and sent her away: and she
departed, and wandered in the
wilderness of Beersheba” (Gen 21:14).

He put a 17years old boy on an old woman back?

Don't worry, i'll school you after truthman reply me.

malvisguy212:
where do you get this from? ishmael was 17? Quote the quranic verse let see.

“And Abraham rose up early in the
morning, and took bread, and a bottle
of water, and gave it unto Hagar,
putting it on her shoulder, and the
child, and sent her away: and she
departed, and wandered in the
wilderness of Beersheba” (Gen 21:14).

He put a 17years old boy on an old woman back?

Truthman2012 do you agree with this ignoramus?

Are you also asking me the above question?

Rilwayne001:


Ishmael was 17 when he was driven out from Abraham family and I dont think a 17years old would not know and practise what his father worshipped.

Furthermore, how come it was both Isaac and Ishmael that buried Abraham? Also God bless his nation exeedingly, can God bless the nation of those who are not devoted to him?

Don't evade my questions.

I will answer your questions but before then, I want to ask you, where did you read that God blessed the nation of Ishmael as you don't believe the bible? Again, where did you read that Ishmael joined Isaac to bury Abraham?

Rilwayne001:
Don't worry, i'll school you after truthman reply me.





Truthman2012 do you agree with this ignoramus?

Are you also asking me the above question?

ok, don't forget to give the quranic reference that say he was 17 years.

macof:


have u ever done research on ur religion?
U like to dig into Islam but have u done same for ur religion?

why not read about Kenite and Yahweh in mediaeval canaanland

Why do I have to do research on what I know very well? Kenite and others like him might be anti-God, sent by satan. I have seen and experienced the true God in Christianity.

Rilwayne001:
Don't worry, i'll school you after truthman reply me.



Truthman2012 do you agree with this ignoramus?

Are you also asking me the above question?

Malvisguy is never an ignoramus! Address the issue please.

People are important. Gods are not.
sharing
thoughts on the fact that 12 people
are dead because of a cartoon.
I’m an atheist. Not the sort who
never got around to believing in a
god, but the sort who was raised
and taught to be religious and who
finally rejected religion. So I’m
pretty clear on what I believe and
why and what I don’t believe and
why.
I’m also not the sort of atheist who
demonises the religious. It’s true
that I dislike gods so much that I’ve
even been called a “misotheist”, but
that’s the thing. It’s the gods I don’t
like, not the people.
I don’t just believe blasphemy is OK,
I believe it’s important. As a
humanist, I believe strongly that
humans matter the most, infinitely
more than gods ever will.
Blasphemy dis-empowers gods, and
that’s vitally important, because
gods should not be powerful. They
should not hold more respect than
humans. They should not be
unapproachable, unquestionable, or
sacred. The authority of gods needs
to be challenged. I strongly believe
this.
And for that reason I am absolutely
distraught at the news that twelve
people are dead because of a
cartoon, probably because that
cartoon was blasphemous.
Nothing can justify the shooting. It’s
perfectly OK to believe in gods, but
gods are not more important than
people. Gods. Are. Not. More.
Important. Than. People.
But really I’m preaching to the choir
today. I severely doubt a single
person reading this believes that it’s
OK to shoot someone for drawing
something you don’t like. Criticise
them? Yes. Complain? Fine. Fight
back with your own art? Absolutely.
Shoot them? No. Of course not.
On the other hand, I bet a lot of
people reading this believe it’s
perfectly OK to react to these
attacks with hatred towards an
entire group of people, simply
because they likely share the
religion of the attackers.
Muslim people themselves are
loudly speaking out against the
attacks , but that hasn’t stopped the
hatred towards Muslims that can be
seen everywhere at the moment.
People are dead because of hatred,
and now people are responding to
that by trying to use it to justify
more hatred.

truthman2012:

I will answer your questions but before then, I want to ask you,

Is this how you want me and you to be discussing? you don't answer my question but you always want me to answer yours?.
Please don't talk nonsense if i begin to ignore your questions too.

where did you read that God bless the nation of Ishmael as you don't believe the bible?

Maybe the bible lied when it says: Genesis (17:20): ”As for Ishmael, I am heeding you: [size=15pt] I hereby bless him [/size] I will make him fertile and will multiply him exceedingly . He shall become the father of twelve chieftains, AND I will make of him a GREAT NATION .”

Again, where did you read that Ishmael joined Isaac to bury Abraham?

You don't read your bible do you? do i av to school you on your bible everyday? Genesis 25:9 And his [size=15pt] sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah [/size] , in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre;.


NOW PLEASE KINDLY REFERR BACK TO MY QUESTION.

Rilwayne001:


Is this how you want me and you to be discussing? you don't answer my question but you always want me to answer yours?.
Please don't talk nonsense if i begin to ignore your questions too.



Maybe the bible lied when it says: Genesis (17:20): ”As for Ishmael, I am heeding you: [size=15pt] I hereby bless him [/size] I will make him fertile and will multiply him exceedingly . He shall become the father of twelve chieftains, AND I will make of him a GREAT NATION .”



You don't read your bible do you? do i av to school you on your bible everyday? Genesis 25:9 And his [size=15pt] sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah [/size] , in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre;.

NOW PLEASE KINDLY REFERR BACK TO MY QUESTION.

I will answer your questions only if you confess you believe those verses of the bible because you once said you believe only bible verses repeated in the quran.

malvisguy212:
ok, don't forget to give the quranic reference that say he was 17 years.

truthman2012:

Malvisguy is never an ignoramus! Address the issue please.

I will take the above as a YES i.e. According to the bible Ishmael was a child. now lemme quickly treat you guys of your ignorance.

truthman2012: Ishmael was driven out from Abraham's family at a tender age,

Really?

mavisguy212: where do you get this from? ishmael was 17?

From the bible

Quote the quranic verse let see.

It was the bible that said so, i never claim the Quran said so.

“And Abraham rose up early in the
morning, and took bread, and a bottle
of water, and gave it unto Hagar,
putting it on her shoulder, and the
child, and sent her away: and she
departed, and wandered in the
wilderness of Beersheba” (Gen 21:14).
He put a 17years old boy on an old woman back?

Yes i kept wondering too how can an old woman put a 17year old boy to the back but lets read the bible together.

HOW OLD WAS ABRAHAM WHE ISHMAEL WAS BORN?
Genesis 16:16
Abraham was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael.

HOW OLD WAS ABRAHAM WHEN ISAAC WAS BORN?

Genesis 21:5:
Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him.

Now Truthman and Malvisguy do the math from the above.

I got 14 years old i.e Ishmeal was 14 when isaac was born,

NOW HOW OLD WAS ISAAC WHEN HAGAR AND HER SON WERE SENT AWAY .

Genesis 21:8 The child grew and was weaned, and on the day Isaac was weaned Abraham held a great feast

Typically, Isaac would be around 2-3 years old when he is weaned and we see in the proceeding verse they the following day after the weaning that which makes Ishmael about 16-17 years of age when he is expelled from Abraham's home...

1) Now, the bible left us with a problem as malvisguy noted up there, can you guys please solve the problem for me? in malviguys voice "how can an old woman back a boy of 17years old?

2) It is possible that Ishmael is devoted to the God of his father for he is not a small boy at the age of 17, furthermore if he took the way of a pagan, God woudnt have reiterate his promise to Abraham as seen in verse 13 and also to hagar in the desert of Paran.

@ Rilwayne

Since you seem to now believe the bible, let me answer your question as briefly as possible because I'm on phone.

Even if Ishmael was 14 or 17 years old when he was cast out, his Egyptian mother and wife, who came from the background of idol worship, were capable of influencing him.

Besides, Ishmael never lived in Mecca, he died somewhere around Paran since you now believe the bible (Gen. 25:17-18). May be his grandchildren did. He could not have established islam in Mecca.

truthman2012:
@ Rilwayne
Since you seem to now believe the bible,

I don't have to believe the bible as a whole but the word of God is always different from the word of Man, and with the Quran i can indicate the word of God in the bible.

let me answer your question as briefly as possible because I'm on phone.

You've only boycott most of my questions, i expect you to quote me as i have been doing to yours. or you don know how to do it?

Even if Ishmael was 14 or 17 years old when he was cast out,

Now please make clear the problem that the verse pose for me and malvisguy212 up there, again in malviguy's voice " how can an old woman back a boy of 17years old?

his Egyptian mother and wife, who came from the background of idol worship, were capable of influencing him.

Same can be said of hagar and Ishmael too, they have been influenced to worship the God abraham worshipped **Gen 16:13**she never denied God. Furthermore, God would not promise a pagan the promise he made to Abraham and Hagar on Ishmael.

Besides, Ishmael never lived in Mecca, he died somewhere around Paran since you now believe the bible (Gen. 25:17-18).

Where is Paran today mr. Truthman?

May be his grandchildren did. He could not have established islam in Mecca.

The point am trying to make here is that since the father of arabs worship ALLAH, then some of his children will also do, and on and on like that, though the mode of worshipping him might have been lost, thats why you claim that Allah was worshipped as idol in mecca, those who worshipped him as an idol aare ignorant who have somehow lost how their grandfather used to worship him.

Then The Prophet (SAW) came to remind them the GOD of their grandfather.

Rilwayne001:


I will take the above as a YES i.e. According to the bible Ishmael was a child. now lemme quickly treat you guys of your ignorance.



Really?



From the bible



It was the bible that said so, i never claim the Quran said so.



Yes i keep wondering too how can an old woman put a 17year old boy to the back but lets read the bible together.

HOW OLD WAS ABRAHAM WHE ISHMAEL WAS BORN?
Genesis 16:16
Abraham was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael.

HOW OLD WAS ABRAHAM WHEN ISAAC WAS BORN?

Genesis 21:5:
Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him.

Now Truthman and Malvisguy do the math from the above.

I got 14 years old i.e Ishmeal was 14 when isaac was born,

NOW HOW OLD WAS ISAAC WHEN HAGAR AND HER SON WERE SENT AWAY .

Genesis 21:8 The child grew and was weaned, and on the day Isaac was weaned Abraham held a great feast

Typically, Isaac would be around 2-3 years old when he is weaned and we see in the proceeding verse they the following day after the weaning that which makes Ishmael about 16-17 years of age when he is expelled from Abraham's home...

1) Now, the bible left us with a problem as malvisguy noted up there, can you guys please solve the problem for me? in malviguys voice "how can an old woman back a boy of 17years old?

2) It is possible that Ishmael is devoted to the God of his father for he is not a small boy at the age of 17, furthermore if he took the way of a pagan, God woudnt have reiterate his promise to Abraham as seen in verse 13 and also to hagar in the desert of Paran.

you say ishmael was 17 years old, you get this information from a book that you claimed is corrupt and you believe,but the verse that say Jesus is Lord, you don't believe it.

You can't comperd there state of perfection and nowadays humans.

malvisguy212:
you say ishmael was 17 years old, you get this information from a book that you claimed is corrupt and you believe,but the verse that say Jesus is Lord, you don't believe it.

You can't comperd there state of perfection and nowadays humans.

hehehehehehehe abeggg moses, go and sleep.

How can an old woman back a 17years old boy?

Rilwayne001:


hehehehehehehe abeggg moses, go and sleep.

How can an old woman back a 17years old boy?

let me ask you a question.

The quran mention the name of ishmael mother? I really want you to quote the quranic account.

malvisguy212:
let me ask you a question.

The quran mention the name of ishmael mother? I really want you to quote the quranic account.

Using question to answer question, is that what they taught in you in school? oh! sorry, i have forgotten that you have'nt written your O'level .

See enh, if you are writing your WAEC, you are expected to answer questions and not to question the questions given to you. If you don't have answer to questions, you either skip it or write 'i don't avan idea' hehehe

@Rilwayne

I cannot understand how you reason and therefore may not be able to continue with you. I said am on phone, yet you said I don't know how to quote as if you have not seen me quoted many times, probably b4 you joined nairaland.

God's promise to Ishmael was not because of Hagar, but Abraham.

Paran was in Israel where Moses addressed the Israelites (Deut 1:1).

Since Paran is not Mecca, it might be that Hagar and Ishmael worshiped the God of Abraham in Paran, when islam was not yet existing. The truth is Abraham and Ishmael were never in Mecca to establish islam. Mecca was an extension of Yemen at that time.

Rilwayne001:


Using question to answer question, is that what they thought in you in school? oh! sorry, i have forgotten that you have'nt written your O'levels .

See enh, if you are writing your WAEC, you are expected to answer questions and not to question the questions given to you. If you don't have answer to questions, you either skip it or write 'i don't avan idea' hehehe

so the quran never give the complete information about ishmael and his mother? It is the corrupt bible that educate you. Ok thanks for your insult.

malvisguy212:
so the quran never give the complete information about ishmael and his mother? It is the corrupt bible that educate you. Ok thanks for your insult.

Don't mind him bro., he is a hypocrite. He once said he did not believe any bible verses that are not in the quran. Now he believe what the bible says about Ishmael, which is not in scanty quran. Quran is not detailed enough to know where the forefather of Muhammad came from. Smh!

Islam has a way of twisting the truth..Muslims desperate to validate their Prophets prophethood go to the bible.
Just to digress.. What do Muslims say about John 3:16 ? They quote John verse about comforter 14:16 which they decide refers to Muhammad but will never say 3:16 is real.
Who corrupted The Injeel ,separating verses that don't recognize the fake prophet?