KAG:

The big bang

A theory cannot be the basis of another theory. We dont know the big bang occured.

KAG:

Although the question is worded somewhat paradoxically, I understand what you mean. Space.

the correct answer is we dont know. You can only define space in the context of something else . . . in this case earth. Since earth didnt exist millions of yrs ago, what was in existence then?

KAG:

I like that you typed that on a computer and sent it via the intertubes. Makes irony more than just a word that contains iron.

Straw man alert. Does science have an answer for how we came to arrive on planet earth?

the correct answer is we don't know.

Yea we don't the bible did not mention that

@KAG

are you a physicist? and where can I get your earlier posts in the forum on the theories of The big bang.

Chrisbenogor wrote: In biology, evolution is change in the inherited traits of a population of organisms from one generation to the next. These changes are caused by a combination of three main processes: variation, reproduction, and selection. Genes that are passed on to an organism's offspring producethe inherited traits that are the basis of evolution. These traits vary within populations, with organisms showing heritable differences in their traits. When organisms reproduce, their offspring may have new or altered traits. These new traits arise in two main ways: either from mutations in genes, or from the transfer of genes between populations and between species. In species that reproduce sexually, new combinations of genes are also produced by genetic recombination, which can increase variation between organisms. Evolution occurs when these heritable differences become more common or rare in a population.
*source wikipedia
Do all parties agree to this definition?

Chris, this exapnded definition is fairly accurate. The part: "Eevolution is change in the inherited traits of a population of organisms from one generation to the next" should be about accurate enough for the purpose of this discussion. Were we to get quite precise, we could go with the definition of a basic biology textbook for evolution as "any change in the frequency of alleles within a gene pool from one generation to the next."

I doubt that people using "evolution", especially the religiously inclined, think of evolution this way. The next step will be to ascertain that this definition is understood. The definition is one thing, it's understanding is another; it is simple, yet not trivial.
.

I actually admire kag and her posts.She is extremely enlightened about science and i love her rebuttals against people like davidylan. I read her posts alot to get more information about evolution, its various theories and contradictions especially inlation to dispelling the creation myth!

Good work KAG keep it up. You have a loyal fan here!

Nimshi you are right the less complicated the better for everyone, I told you earlier that biology bores me I was gearing up to read the debates shame david ran away.
Kag is also doing a wonderful job for the rebuttals.
I cannot prove a negative so I cannot prove there is no God, burden of proof is on them. I am waiting patiently.

Chrisbenogor:

Yea we don't the bible did not mention that

Wow. We can see why you don't believe in the Bible because it is obvious you can't read nor spell.

1st mistake:
Yea is spelled, yeah.

2nd mistake:
Whoever was your English teacher should be immediately discontinued from their practice.
When did people start using Double Negatives within a sentence?

3rd mistake:
The entire sentence is a fragment. I can't even begin to distinguish the lack of intellect posted above.

Instead of worrying about The Holy Bible, the book, why not invest in some Grammar books. I will happily invest in one for you. All you need to do is ask.

davidylan:

A theory cannot be the basis of another theory. We don't know the big bang occured.

Actually, you are wrong there. Theories are often used as the basis for other theories. For example, Einstein's theory of relativity forms the basis for many other theories in physics and cosmology, as do the theories of the Earth's movement and its orbit around the sun.

Further, the big bang theory is currently the best explanation for cosmological observations. So, it's as close to knowing as we currently have.

Although the question is worded somewhat paradoxically, I understand what you mean. Space.

the correct answer is we don't know. You can only define space in the context of something else . . . in this case earth. Since earth didnt exist millions of years ago, what was in existence then?

No. Not at all, no. Space is a dimension of its own and, like many things in the universe, is perhaps counter-intuitive. In any case, space is define in relation to the inflation that may have occured before the big bang. Also, no, we should not and do not define space simply as a function of the earth - the earth is one tiny dot in the expansiveness of space. Finally, I don't know where you get the idea that the earth didn't exist millions of years ago. The earth is at least 4+ billion years old.

[quote]More estimating, more hypothesis . . . in short science has no answer.

I like that you typed that on a computer and sent it via the intertubes. Makes irony more than just a word that contains iron.

Straw man alert. Does science have an answer for how we came to arrive on planet earth?
[/quote]

Um, no, it isn't a strawman, as it directly addresses the part of your post that asserts that science has no answers.

Does science have an answer for how we came to arrive? Scientists have, using available evidence, concluded that we must have eveolved from other species, theorised that, going far back enough, abiogenesis occured, and further on: planetary formation, solar system, etc.

duduspace:

@KAG

are you a physicist? and where can I get your earlier posts in the forum on the theories of The big bang.

A lot of them are in my previous posts.

Adam Brody:

I actually admire kag and her posts.She is extremely enlightened about science and i love her rebuttals against people like davidylan. I read her posts alot to get more information about evolution, its various theories and contradictions especially inlation to dispelling the creation myth!

Good work KAG keep it up. You have a loyal fan here!

Thank you ever so much. It's my pleasure.

Chrisbenogor:

Nimshi you are right the less complicated the better for everyone, I told you earlier that biology bores me I was gearing up to read the debates shame david ran away.
Kag is also doing a wonderful job for the rebuttals.
I cannot prove a negative so I cannot prove there is no God, burden of proof is on them. I am waiting patiently.

Thanks for the compliment.

Kag,
I am highly impressed with your knowledge of science and cosmology in particular, are you a Nigerian? because i though all Nigerian girls have science phobia and are closed minded religious fanatics (strangely all religions are directed at oppressing women and making them feel less then men)

Can i get to know you better?

@onyinye2
Shaaaaarap dia
Hehehehehehe eh ya, so it is grammar you are attacking now lol.
Going by your original post every single person that has taught you should be hanged, but I am sure the problem lies with you because if brains were gold you wouldn't have enough to fill a tooth - on a mouse.
Ozugbo go and hide your self, you are asking questions about nature in spite of what it did to you.
Arrant bull crap.

For examples of atheist who, in all likelihood, do not know about evolution, never mind accept it, check out the Piraha of Brazil. A great description of their language and culture is given by Daniel L Everett in his book.. Everret went to live with the Piraha as a Christian missionary and researcher, but he ended up deconverting from the falsehood of theism after the Piraha pointed out to him just how stupid the beliefs he was trying to sell to them was.

davidylan:

A theory cannot be the basis of another theory. We don't know the big bang occured.

the correct answer is we don't know. You can only define space in the context of something else . . . in this case earth. Since earth didnt exist millions of years ago, what was in existence then?

Straw man alert. Does science have an answer for how we came to arrive on planet earth?

I believe you describe yourself as a scientist or as someone working working in the scientific field. A comment such as the above displays your ignorance of science and does a travesty to the real hard work real scientist do out there.

davidylan:

A theory cannot be the basis of another theory. We don't know the big bang occured.

The wohle biblical assertion and creation story is just a theory that was written by men that lived in and wrote on stones centuries ago. By the way we don't know when the biblical god created the world using words of mouth(probably hebrew). if you have any idea of the time or date you can let us know.

the correct answer is we don't know. You can only define space in the context of something else . . . in this case earth. Since earth didnt exist millions of years ago, what was in existence then?

I guess the biblical god and his angels. . . . 

Straw man alert. Does science have an answer for how we came to arrive on planet earth? 

can you tell us how the biblical god created light and water through the use of words? you were quick to point out that science has no answer, what then has the answers? prayers? . when it comes to science you want 100percent proof but you are quick to use imaginary conceptions and bizzare analogies to buttress you god rthetorics.

onyinye2:

Wow. We can see why you don't believe in the Bible because it is obvious you can't read nor spell.

1st mistake:
Yea is spelled, yeah.

2nd mistake:
Whoever was your English teacher should be immediately discontinued from their practice.
When did people start using Double Negatives within a sentence?

3rd mistake:
The entire sentence is a fragment. I can't even begin to distinguish the lack of intellect posted above.

Instead of worrying about The Holy Bible, the book, why not invest in some Grammar books. I will happily invest in one for you. All you need to do is ask.

ROTFLMS_exyG_orgeousB_ehindo_ff 

now really,like seriously u ple should leave my chris alone ooo,haba,must y'all attack him wherever and whenever?

i prefer chris to other athiests,but i just wish he'll change and believe in God

busybein:

ROTFLMS_exyG_orgeousB_ehindo_ff

now really,like seriously u ple should leave my chris alone ooo,haba,must y'all attack him wherever and whenever?

i prefer chris to other athiests,but i just wish he'll change and believe in God

Busybien! chieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, marriage is OVER, we shall meet in the divorce court. chieee, ehen, ok ohh , i know what i will do.

mazaje:

Busybien! chieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, marriage is OVER, we shall meet in the divorce court. chieee, ehen, ok ohh , i know what i will do.

haaa no its not wat u think honey u see ehmm,chris is my beloveth brother, dat "my chris" is not the intimate thingy,truth, chris is like a brother to me ,u know ive never cheated on u b4,and i wont start now plsssss,no divorce ejoooo

Sorry Jenny but when I saw all those grammatical errors I was like,

"Oh my word. Does this lack of intelligence still exist??"

So I just could not resist. I had to make a point.

I mean I understand when you got some spelling mistakes but that mess right there was eye burning.

busybein:

haaa no its not what u think honey u see ehmm,chris is my beloveth brother, that "my chris" is not the intimate thingy,truth, chris is like a brother to me ,u know ive never cheated on u before,and i wont start now plsssss,no divorce ejoooo

the dots have now fully connected, they have been there all along for me to see, now that the connection is starring at me right in my face divorce is the only option left, if you wont be in court send your lawyer as for me an out.

because i though all Nigerian girls have science phobia and are closed minded religious fanatics

What is this?

onyinye2:

Sorry Jenny but when I saw all those grammatical errors I was like,

"Oh my word. Does this lack of intelligence still exist??"

So I just could not resist. I had to make a point.

I mean I understand when you got some spelling mistakes but that mess right there was eye burning.

hahahahah leave my boi chris alone,onye ojo ka gi,iwere onu ojo onyinye

mazaje:

the dots have now fully connected, they have been there all along for me to see, now that the connection is starring at me right in my face divorce is the only option left, if you wont be in court send your lawyer as for me an out.

no naaaaa,chris is only a bros to me oooo,ask him naa,he will tell u,lai lai ask anybody i have never cheated on my one and only mazaje truth,no divorce,i will just commit suicide

busybein:


no naaaaa,chris is only a bros to me oooo,ask him naa,he will tell u,lai lai ask anybody i have never cheated on my one and only mazaje truth,no divorce,i will just commit suicide

ok last chance any more tricks or pranks and we are done.

KarmaMod:

What is this?

what you just read. abi na lie? i know it's bad to generalize but i have'nt come across any.

mazaje:

ok last chance any more tricks or pranks and we are done.

even if u leave me,u know u cant find another woman as pretty as i am

busybein:

even if u leave me,u know u can't find another woman as pretty as i am

Thats true, i must admitt, its part of the reasons i had to reconsider my actions, but i have to reassert any more tricky move and its over.

mazaje:

ok last chance any more tricks or pranks and we are done.

what you just read. abi na lie? i know it's bad to generalize but i have'nt come across any.

havent come across any what?

and the reason the ones you guys MIGHT KNOW are seen as "closedminded religious zombies" is cos you're the ones screaming for "God Fearing Women". They c\act like the god Fearing Women and you are now complaining that they're stupid. Naija chicks can never do right apparently

KarmaMod:

havent come across any what?

and the reason the ones you guys MIGHT KNOW are seen as "closedminded religious zombies" is because you're the ones screaming for "God Fearing Women". They c\act like the god Fearing Women and you are now complaining that they're stupid. Naija chicks can never do right apparently

u r right there

KarmaMod:

havent come across any what?

and the reason the ones you guys MIGHT KNOW are seen as "closedminded religious zombies" is because you're the ones screaming for "God Fearing Women". They c\act like the god Fearing Women and you are now complaining that they're stupid. Naija chicks can never do right apparently

Am not that kind of person. . . .

mazaje:

Thats true, i must admitt, its part of the reasons i had to reconsider my actions, but i have to reassert any more tricky move and its over.

ehen ,soup wey sweet na money kill am leave me and loose all dis things u bought for me and invested in me,dont forget the joint account sweets

mazaje:

Am not that kind of person. . . .

Doesnt matter. Majority wins

the problem is KAG comes here spewing a lot of jargon and so the dumb here keep crying about how good she is with what are largely the theories of those with nothing to do with their time but dream up conjecture.

Actually, you are wrong there. Theories are often used as the basis for other theories. For example, Einstein's theory of relativity forms the basis for many other theories in physics and cosmology, as do the theories of the Earth's movement and its orbit around the sun.

And? How have these theories proven anything about the central question?
How did earth appear here?

Further, the big bang theory is currently the best explanation for cosmological observations. So, it's as close to knowing as we currently have.

It is a desperately flawed theory that is only held by those who wish to negate the creation story. How did this big bang occur? when and through what?
What produced the big bang? Can science re-create life with a big bang?

No. Not at all, no. Space is a dimension of its own and, like many things in the universe, is perhaps counter-intuitive. In any case, space is define in relation to the inflation that may have occured before the big bang. Also, no, we should not and do not define space simply as a function of the earth - the earth is one tiny dot in the expansiveness of space.

bla bla bla . . . all this is big grammar that does little to educate us on the central question . . . how did we get on this planet?

Finally, I don't know where you get the idea that the earth didn't exist millions of years ago. The earth is at least 4+ billion years old.

Based on more of your flawed scientific theories? Where you there when the earth was created? Who created it? The big bang?
why is the earth the ONLY planet that supports life?

Does science have an answer for how we came to arrive? Scientists have, using available evidence, concluded that we must have eveolved from other species, theorised that, going far back enough, abiogenesis occured, and further on: planetary formation, solar system, etc.

In other words . . . these scientists dont have a clue how we arrived here so they grasp at any straws to explain it away. when you probe deeper they hide under the banner of "we are still searching".
Now you mention "available evidence" . . . what evidence?

If we evolved from other species why have we suddenly stopped evolving? Which species did we evolve from and HOW?
Abiogenesis? Funny enough abiogenenesis DOES NOT occur in real life because amino acids cannot stably form peptides in the natural environment. We already know Miller's experiment was one huge manipulative failure.

Planetry formation? How? why have they stopped forming? Why havent we seen any new huge planets since?

Solar system? Why only one sun for the last million yrs? Why hasnt this sun died out yet?

Dont worry, your praise singers will be here to cheer you on again.

davidylan:

the problem is KAG comes here spewing a lot of jargon and so the dumb here keep crying about how good she is with what are largely the theories of those with nothing to do with their time but dream up conjecture.

That's nice. That the so called jargon I'm spewing hasn't been falsified nor threatened speaks volumes, though. That those theories are often the cornerstones of modern science helps a great deal too.

[quote]A theory cannot be the basis of another theory. We don't know the big bang occured.

Actually, you are wrong there. Theories are often used as the basis for other theories. For example, Einstein's theory of relativity forms the basis for many other theories in physics and cosmology, as do the theories of the Earth's movement and its orbit around the sun.

And? How have these theories proven anything about the central question?
How did earth appear here?[/quote]

You do realise that the question of the Earth's origin wasn't the central question, right? Further, this aspect of my post addressed the basic error contained in the assertion that "A theory cannot be the basis of another theory". I gave examples refuting your claim.

How did the Earth, in its initial stage, emerge? That isn't too certain, but it is suspected that accretion played a part. Wikipedia has a great page detailing the possible route: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet#Formation

Further, the big bang theory is currently the best explanation for cosmological observations. So, it's as close to knowing as we currently have.

It is a desperately flawed theory that is only held by those who wish to negate the creation story. How did this big bang occur? when and through what?
What produced the big bang? Can science re-create life with a big bang?

Actually, it's anything but desperately flawed. Kinky? Yes. Also, for many theists, the Big Bang theory is, for them, their god's (be it Christian, Jewish, Hindu, etc) method for creation of the universe; so, no, it isn't some conspired idea to simply get rid of your pet, quaint notions.

How did the big bang occur? Expansion from a singularity. The expansion could have been sparked by anything from too much constriction to a certain planck denseness or a fluctuation. At this point we can't know.

No, science can't "recreate" life with a big bang (not unless that's some kind of double entendre), as the big bang didn't create life.

[quote]You can only define space in the context of something else . . . in this case earth. Since earth didnt exist millions of years ago, what was in existence then?

No. Not at all, no. Space is a dimension of its own and, like many things in the universe, is perhaps counter-intuitive. In any case, space is define in relation to the inflation that may have occured before the big bang. Also, no, we should not and do not define space simply as a function of the earth - the earth is one tiny dot in the expansiveness of space.

bla bla bla . . . all this is big grammar that does little to educate us on the central question . . . how did we get on this planet?[/quote]

I have taken the pleasure of reposting the part of your post to which I was responding in that section. Hopefully, from that you should be able to see that it was educating you on the question you were asking at that time, and not some grand central question that I can only imagine is your attempt to shift the goalposts.

Finally, I don't know where you get the idea that the earth didn't exist millions of years ago. The earth is at least 4+ billion years old.

Based on more of your flawed scientific theories? Where you there when the earth was created? Who created it? The big bang?
why is the earth the ONLY planet that supports life?

Based on sound scientific principles. I wasn't there. Forensic science doesn't require an eyewitnesss. The big bang didn't create the earth, no. The earth is probably not the only planet in the universe that can support life - the odds, based on the number of planets in the universe, give credence to that.

Why do you think the earth is less than a million years old?

Does science have an answer for how we came to arrive? Scientists have, using available evidence, concluded that we must have eveolved from other species, theorised that, going far back enough, abiogenesis occured, and further on: planetary formation, solar system, etc.

In other words . . . these scientists don't have a clue how we arrived here so they grasp at any straws to explain it away. when you probe deeper they hide under the banner of "we are still searching".

No, in other words you don't have clue.

Now you mention "available evidence" . . . what evidence?

For shared ancestry: shared unique features that are only parsimoniously explained by a common lineage. Examples of those include the presence of shared endogeneous retroviral insertions between animals that already showed, before the full emergence of genetic studies, common ancestry; the presence of chromosome no.2 in humans.

etc.

If we evolved from other species why have we suddenly stopped evolving?

We haven't.

Which species did we evolve from and HOW?

Most immediately? A species most likely in the homo range. The evolution would have occured through changes in the allele frequency of a population and natural selection.

Abiogenesis? Funny enough abiogenenesis DOES NOT occur in real life because amino acids cannot stably form peptides in the natural environment.

No, amino acids cannot do that in the earth's current environment.

We already know Miller's experiment was one huge manipulative failure.

Actually, no. The Miller-Urey experiment did work and was successful in showing what it was meant to show: "that conditions on the primitive Earth favored chemical reactions that synthesized organic compounds from inorganic precursors."(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_urey).

Now, could you perhaps show the manipulation and failure in their experiment?

Planetry formation? How? why have they stopped forming? Why havent we seen any new huge planets since?

Um, planets haven't stopped forming? Many planets have been spotted. Good god, man, science has moved on since the nineteenth century!

Solar system? Why only one sun for the last million years? Why hasnt this sun died out yet?

I'll let you figure this one out by yourself as I don't think it warrants a response - other than "I'll let you figure this one out by yourself"

don't worry, your praise singers will be here to cheer you on again.

Oh, goody!

davidylan:

the problem is KAG comes here spewing a lot of jargon and so the dumb here keep crying about how good she is with what are largely the theories of those with nothing to do with their time but dream up conjecture.

see this deluded slowpoke, you are use the proceeds of science in your day to day life and open your dirty mouth to say that science answers nothing, what has the bible answered? here is how your bible describes genetic engineering

37 Jacob, however, took fresh-cut branches from poplar, almond and plane trees and made white stripes on them by peeling the bark and exposing the white inner wood of the branches. 38 Then he placed the peeled branches in all the watering troughs, so that they would be directly in front of the flocks when they came to drink. When the flocks were in heat and came to drink, 39 they mated in front of the branches. And they bore young that were streaked or speckled or spotted. 40 Jacob set apart the young of the flock by themselves, but made the rest face the streaked and dark-colored animals that belonged to Laban. Thus he made separate flocks for himself and did not put them with Laban's animals. 41 Whenever the stronger females were in heat, Jacob would place the branches in the troughs in front of the animals so they would mate near the branches, 42 but if the animals were weak, he would not place them there. So the weak animals went to Laban and the strong ones to Jacob. 43 In this way the man grew exceedingly prosperous and came to own large flocks, and maidservants and menservants, and camels and donkeys.

here is what your bible says about rainbows

Genesis 9.13-15):

I have set my bow in the clouds, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth. When I bring clouds over the earth and the bow is seen in the clouds, I will remember my covenant that is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh.

deal with it, remember that the bible also asserts that evil spirits cause blindness and wasting away of body parts. you are yet to tell us how the hebrew god created light using words of mouth or how what mechanism he used in separating the light from the darkness, you are yet to tell us how the biblical god created seed-bearing plants and trees using words of mouth. you are yet to tell us how abraham who commited incest(married his half sister gen 20:12), or lot who commited incest with his daugters(Genesis 19:30-38 ) were able to survive and flourish desipite what science has told us about incest( biologist/geneticist have showed that serious birth defects is higher the more closely related the parents are.)

you are yet to explain to us despite all you shouting and rants how the biblical god created living creatures using words of mouth. can you explain to us how all men decended from adam? explain to us how the stars will fall into the earth on the day that jesus will come into the earth from the skies. you keep on shouting that science has answered nothing, what has the bible answered? why do you go to hospital when you fall sick when the bible tells you that prayer alone is enough to "heal" you? you want science to provide 100% answers when the bible provides non or simplistic statements at best. apart from the stupid and lame excuse you guys have to always shout miracle, what has the bible answered with regards to life and the world around us? what is a miracle and how does it work? explain to us using your knwoledege of biology and science how jonah survived in a fish for 3 days. i heard that pastor adepoye travelled for more than 300km on an empty tank is that one of the miracle work of the hebrew god too? bunch of goons.