frank317:
You guys keep contradicting yourselves. You fail to see how double tongued you God/bible is. Why wouldn't you argue and prove prove how poorly the Bible have been written yet purposely fail to see it.

It is either God knows the future and what he knows must come to pass or he does not know anything and is doing trial and error just like anyone of us or he has no idea why you guys waste ur life calling his name every time.

Mr. Ayoku.... What is the use of predestination when your God knows that free will will/can overshadow it? In your bid to explain the unexplainable, u are making your God sound silly.

You meant unexplainable to you. Coz it is clear in the bible.

John 6v64 -For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, AND WHO SHOULD BETRAY HIM.

You see this scripture? Jesus knew from the very beginning that Judas would betray Him and become a son of perdition.

Yet Jesus still called him and predestined him to sit with Him in the age to come together with the twelve.

Matthew 19v28 -Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me; In the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also (Judas inclusive) shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Judas was still among the twelve, the "ye also", when Jesus made this statement. Yet Judas still chose the way of perdition.

So it may sound irrational to you, but it is a clear truth in scripture. God has given man both predestination and freewill.

These guys just showed that the old men that compiled the bible at Nicene are geniuses... Those guys did a terrible job

frank317:


Mr. Ayoku.... What is the use of predestination when your God knows that free will will/can overshadow it? In your bid to explain the unexplainable, u are making your God sound silly.

I beleive God predestined humans but we chose to have freewill when Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating the forbidden fruit.

byteHead:


I beleive God predestined humans but we chose to have freewill when Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating the forbidden fruit.

which means your God is not omniscient cus what he predestined failed when adam and eve ate the fruit

byteHead:


I beleive God predestined humans BUT WE CHOSE TO HAVE FREEWILL when Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating the forbidden fruit.

*facepalm*

WTF does that even mean? You guys keep shooting yourselves in the foot over and over again without flinching. I'm amazed, really

How does one CHOOSE to have freewill without initially having it?

Mehn you Christians on this thread are doing your religion a massive disservice

timmy2409:


*facepalm*

WTF does that even mean? You guys keep shooting yourselves in the foot over and over again without flinching. I'm amazed, really

How does one CHOOSE to have freewill without initially having it?

Mehn you Christians on this thread are doing your religion a massive disservice

hahahahahaha asin eeeehn i tire ooo

johnydon22:


Ok let me get something straight here... According to you, Your God condemned the whole world and then decided to save a few?

The whole world was affected by the fall of Adam and were all deserving of hell. God in His grace decided to save some .

An2elect2:
Do you believe God has a chosen people? If God wants to save everybody as you think why are there many scriptures that talk about those He has chosen unto salvation? 1Peter2:9, John 15:16, Jeremiah 1:5, Deut 14:2, Ephesians 1:3,4, 2 Thess 2:14, Isaiah 43:1-3,10, 1Thess 1:4, Galatians1:15-16,etc. Can scripture contradict itself? That God wants to save everybody and also a select people is impossible and devoid of logic.

If it has been explicitly stated that God has from the beginning chosen some to salvation 2Thess 2:13 and we come across the bible verses you quoted that seem to contradict the clear teaching of election, do we play along treacherously, force ourselves to interpret them independently, separately from others and/or pretend like other scriptures do not exist?
You will answer all these questions yourself when you understand that salvation is not by choice but by grace according to God's election.

plaetton:


Another baloney.
Cant you just see the glowing and glaring contradictions in your statement?
What you wrote above is probably the most moronic , most contradictory, the most meaningless statement ever uttered by a christian.

It clearly demonstrates, in no small measure, that you don't even have a clue about you believe and don't believe.
Like the typical religiotard, you are just making things up as go, albeit, with no clear pattern.

On the contrary, a very brilliant post.

5solas:

The whole world was affected by the fall of Adam and were all deserving of hell. God in His grace decided to save some .

So the whole world deserve hell because of what one man did?

Adam sinned then he blames it on every human up till this 21st century..
Condemns them all to eternal torture because of what they dont even have any clue about... still bearing a grudge he had with adam and eve up till now..

He Knows he will throw them all in hell because of what one man did but creates them anyway...

Decides to save only some selected few he chooses and willing to subject countless others to eternal torment in fire for something they have not a single clue about...

And this is justice and goodness according to you?
Uuuurrgh i can believe a human can utter or bore out such nonsense and still claim this God is good, just, merciful..
Your God is sick, sardistic, moronic, incompetent and evil... quote me on it anytime..

ayoku777:


You meant unexplainable to you. Coz it is clear in the bible.

John 6v64 -For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, AND WHO SHOULD BETRAY HIM.

You see this scripture? Jesus knew from the very beginning that Judas would betray Him and become a son of perdition.

Yet Jesus still called him and predestined him to sit with Him in the age to come together with the twelve.

Matthew 19v28 -Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me; In the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also (Judas inclusive) shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Judas was still among the twelve, the "ye also", when Jesus made this statement. Yet Judas still chose the way of perdition.

So it may sound irrational to you, but it is a clear truth in scripture. God has given man both predestination and freewill.

Of course it is clear to you that's why you have spent almost four pages trying to explain it, yet no one seem to understand you.

ayoku777:


Jesus also talks about those who will be the greatest in the kingdom and those who will be the least.

Since according to you man has no freewill; does God also predestine Christians who will be the greatest in His kingdom and those who will be the least? Or He only predestines those who will go to heaven and let's your freewill determine your reward and position in heaven?

First of all, must you tag the word , ''free'' to the ''will'' of man? What purpose does it serve? I ask because the context in which you use it suggests you are talking of the will of man. However ,if you must use it, you should define it so it is clear what you mean when you use it.
Man of course has a will, but his will does not overrule that of God. Man's will must bow to God's. As everything is foreknown of God so is everything predestined. God does not only predestine the end of an event but the means to that end.

If man has no freewill, and everything we choose to do is the will of God masquerading as our will; is it God then that predestines some christians to remain carnal and some to serve Him zealously?

Carnal christians that still engaging in fornication and every vices; is it predestination also? Since man has no freewill.

And yet you claim I'm defending things poorly.

We cannot do otherwise than God foreknew/predestined, but as Christians we must seek to be guided by His word, for only there do we see His revealed will. Whatever we do we act out God's purposes- hidden or revealed. No one however gets rewarded for fulfilling the secret will of God.

I'm the one that has been showing from scripture where a man predestined to die said if he prays contrary to it, God will honour it.

Cite the scripture, please.

I'm the one that has shown in scripture, where a man ordained to sit on thrones and judge nations, became a son of perdition.

Who said he was ordained to seat on thrones?

I'm the one that has shown in scripture where Jesus warned christians whose names have been written in the book of life that it can be blotted out.

People who believe like you do, that salvation can be lost, are so fond of making assumptions. You assume that from this verse, EX. 32:32 and Psalm 69:28 it is proved that ones name can be blotted out, this is not necessarily so and those verses do not say so, simple. In getting their meaning , you have to compare them with these:
Php 4

3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

This is an encouragement for believers to know that their faith is not in vain.

Rev 13: 8

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

People whose names are written in the book will refuse to worship the beast. Why? Simply because they are chosen for salvation.
Lk 10

20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

What is worth rejoicing over? What is worth rejoicing over the facts that demons were subject to the disciples? Their names are written in Heaven! If it can be blotted out, then what is the point of Jesus? Context will always defeat false teachings/teachers.

All you do is react emotionally to my points. You don't rebut them or give me your own explanation of those verses.

Some verses are difficult to explain in themselves, I prefer to be silent concerning those verses than risk gainsaying them.

I said writing names in the book of life from the foundation of the earth proofs predestination. You agreed.

Then I said blotting out names written in the book of life from the foundation of the earth proofs that predestination is not always fulfilled. You disagreed but didn't give your own interpretation of that verse.

What's your own interpretation of blotting names from the book of life; in relation to predestination and fulfilment?

Don't get emotional. This is issue of doctrine as revealed by scripture, remove emotionalism from it.

Just answer.

I have answered you to some measure at least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99dbSpfaPvU?list=PLZyra-wjThuOKzrOzP-RbmYTCkUiRN1p9

[size=15pt]Do We Have Free Will? (Paa Nabab Yaanuwn)[/size]

johnydon22:


So the whole world deserve hell because of what one man did?

Adam sinned then he blames it on every human up till this 21st century..
Condemns them all to eternal torture because of what they dont even have any clue about... still bearing a grudge he had with adam and eve up till now..

He Knows he will throw them all in hell because of what one man did but creates them anyway...

Decides to save only some selected few he chooses and willing to subject countless others to eternal torment in fire for something they have not a single clue about...

And this is justice and goodness according to you?
Uuuurrgh i can believe a human can utter or bore out such nonsense and still claim this God is good, just, merciful..
Your God is sick, sardistic, moronic, incompetent and evil... quote me on it anytime..

All men deserve damnation because apart from the sin of Adam and Eve, they have actual sins which can only be atoned for by the blood of Christ.

5solas:

All men deserve damnation because apart from the sin of Adam and Eve, they have actual sins which can only be atoned for by the blood of Christ.

So you think everybody deserve damnation..

I need you to answer me this question with honesty without sentiment.

Is it justice to punish a finite sin with an infinite punishment?

johnydon22:


So you think everybody deserve damnation..

I need you to answer me this question with honesty without sentiment.

Is it justice to punish a finite sin with an infinite punishment?

I am stating the position of the scriptures and I am sure the average believer will not have a problem with that. I don't have a problem with it.
But to your question, how do we know what is just? What is the yardstick for that?

5solas:
I am stating the position of the scriptures and I am sure the average believer will not have a problem with that. I don't have a problem with it.
But to your question, how do we know what is just? What is the yardstick for that?

So from your own human empathy you cannot figure out what you find to be right or not.. ok let me rephrase the question.

[size=20] Is 90years of sin worth 100million years of punishment(to cut it)[/size]??

ayoku777:
“It is not divine justice for me to reward or condemn you for what I made you do.”

Rev 22v12 -And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give to everyman according as HIS WORK shall be.

John 3v19 -And this is condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Reward is given to everyman according to his works. And condemnation is on account of men CHOOSING darkness over light.

The light of God (Jesus) came for everyone, not for a few.

John 3v17 -For God. Sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him MIGHT BE SAVED.

Salvation by grace is for all men.

Titus 2v11 - For the grace of God that bringeth slavation HATH APPEARED TO ALL MEN.

People are condemned by their own choices. God doesn't impose salvation on anyone; He can only offer it. Its your choice to accept or reject the offer.

Jesus doesn't badge in. He stands at the door and knock. We choose to let him in, or we leave Him to keep knocking until its too late for us.

Rev 3v20 -Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: IF ANY MAN hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and sup with him and he with me.

Jesus can only stand at the door and knock. We choose to hear and open.

Your problem is that you don't understand how God saves people or how He works.
The scripture you cited that says Jesus stands at the door knocking... doesn't not teach salvation mr. Where was salvation mentioned in that verse?
People like you will never cite the appropriate scriptures when talking about salvation, eternal life because it doesn't go well with your "free will" god. "For BY GRACE ARE YOU SAVED THROUGH FAITH AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES. IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD
NOT OF WORKS SO THAT NO MAN WILL BOAST." Eph 2:8,9.
"For the wages of sin is death; BUT THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD." Rom 6:23.
If you cannot see this, You are B-L-I-N-D !!!

An2elect2:


Your problem is that you don't understand how God saves people or how He works.
The scripture you cited that says Jesus stands at the door knocking... doesn't not teach salvation mr. Where was salvation mentioned in that verse?
People like you will never cite the appropriate scriptures when talking about salvation, eternal life because it doesn't go well with your "free will" god. "For BY GRACE ARE YOU SAVED THROUGH FAITH AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES. IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD
NOT OF WORKS SO THAT NO MAN WILL BOAST." Eph 2:8,9.
"For the wages of sin is death; BUT THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD." Rom 6:23.
If you cannot see this, You are B-L-I-N-D !!!

Funny and clever how you jumpsighted the scripture I quoted in Titus 2v11 that says;

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared UNTO ALL MEN,

You jumpsigthed the verse and moved over to the ones you could twist and gainsay -and then called me blind.

This verse is clearly talking about salvation, and it shows explicitly that the grace of God for salvation is UNTO ALL MEN, not for some or for a few.

You have this twisted and scripturally unfounded opinion that man cannot reject God's grace and offer of salvation. That if God wants to save you, you have no choice but to be saved. Meaning anyone that is not saved is not on God's "To Save" list.

Well you're absolutely wrong!

John 1v11 -He (Jesus) came unto His own, and His own RECEIVED HIM NOT.

And what did He bring?

John 1v17 -For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Jesus came unto His own, bringing grace and truth, and His own RECEIVED HIM NOT.

Does this verse suggest to you that God's grace can never be rejected by man? That man has no freewill when grace shows up with the offer of salvation?

Ofcourse not! It clearly shows otherwise; -That grace can be rejected.

No one is saying you need to work to receive grace or to be saved. But clearly you have the freewill to accept or reject the offer of salvation.

There is no work involved in receiving grace, but there is freewill involved in responding to the offer.

Another verse that shows that God's offer of slavation and eternal life can be rejected by man.

Acts 13v46 -Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, it was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing YE PUT IT FROM YOU, and JUDGE YOURSELVES unworthy of everlasting, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

You can put the gospel of Christ from you. You can judge yourself unworthy of eternal life. Not because you were not offered; but because you put it from you.

These verses destroy your theory that man has no freewill in the face of God's offer of salvation.

And now let me give you more verses that shows that ALL MEN are in God's "To Save" list. Please try not to jumpsight any this time.

Mark 16v15 -And he said unto them, Go ye into ALL THE WORLD, and preach the gospel TO EVERY CREATURE.

The gospel is God's message of grace and offer of salvation to man; and it is to every creature!

John 3v17 -For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that THE WORLD THROUGH HIM MIGHT BE SAVED.

God wants the whole world saved. And the world here is not plants and animals and seas, but mankind!

Ezekiel 33v11 -Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: Turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel.

1Timothy 2v3-4 -For this good and acceptable in the sight of God our saviour; who will have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

2Peter 3v9 -The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, BUT THAT ALL should come to repentance.

Titus 2v11 -For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared UNTO ALL MEN.


SUMMATION

We are all deserving of the second death, but God in His mercy does not want mankind condemned. He sent His son Jesus for the salvation of mankind. And commanded for the gospel to be preached unto every creature to cause the grace that bringeth salvation to appear unto all men. All because he wants no one to perish, but for all to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

That right here is the gospel truth and the summation of the verses I quoted on top.

All these show and proof that all men are in God's "To Save" list. And those who will not be saved are those who refuse God's offer of salvation, and judge themselves unworthy of eternal life by pushing the gospel of grace away from themselves.

No one will go to the lake of fire that didn't of his own freewill reject God's offer of salvation in Christ Jesus. You will have to ignore, or worse, twist a lot of straightforward scriptures to claim otherwise.

Shalom.

Look at them, they don't even understand or know what their own bible says...

johnydon22:


So from your own human empathy you cannot figure out what you find to be right or not.. ok let me rephrase the question.

[size=20] Is 90years of sin worth 100million years of punishment(to cut it)[/size]??

Yes. We cannot fully grasp the enormity of sin.
Leave my empathy out of it.
The good is that Christ saves completely all who come to God through Him. Completely!

5solas:

Yes. We cannot fully grasp the enormity of sin.
Leave my empathy out of it.
The good is that Christ saves completely all who come to God through Him. Completely!

Thats all you find it to be justice... Why should we leave your empathy out of it..

If your empathy clearly is against this your biblical justice then i suggest you have a rethink about this your justice.

Their is nothing Just is this from of sadistic and barbaric savagry.

Christ saves completely from what? the punishment that he (his father) prepared for you in the first place?

This jst proves that the Bible and Jehovah are jokes
Christians don't even know if its predestination or freewill
Wat ever happened to the Bible is the ultimate book of knowledge?

johnydon22:

Thats all you find it to be justice... Why should we leave your empathy out of it..

If your empathy clearly is against this your biblical justice then i suggest you have a rethink about this your justice.

Their is nothing Just is this from of sadistic and barbaric savagry.

Christ saves completely from what? the punishment that he (his father) prepared for you in the first place?

Can a mortal be more righteous than God? Can a man be more pure than his maker?

Job 4:17.

.

5solas:

All men deserve damnation because apart from the sin of Adam and Eve, they have actual sins which can only be atoned for by the blood of Christ.

Here you are applauding the benefits of human sacrifice. Later you'll be praying for native doctors to change when you yourself are carrying the mindset of a native doctor.

Human sacrifice doesn't yield any benefit other than the loss of life. The person conducting the sacrifice will himself die. It's pointless.

Weah96:


Here you are applauding the benefits of human sacrifice. Later you'll be praying for native doctors to change when you yourself are carrying the mindset of a native doctor.

Human sacrifice doesn't yield any benefit other than the loss of life. The person conducting the sacrifice will himself die. It's pointless.

Don't be distressed, this sacrifice lives.

Hebrews 7

8 Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives.

25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

https://www.nairaland.com/3220107/very-interesting-question-christians/2
i have drawn diagrams on the last page of this thread, because christians are masters of wordplay. so here are pictures instead.