Goshen360:
Someone above me said, you receive God's grace to be able to live God's law. That's no what Grace does. You live out Christ in you for Grace is in contrast with the law. So you can't receive Grace to live the law. Both don't co-exist.

truthman2012:


What is law and what is grace?

Does it mean because you are under grace you have the liberty to violate God's law? It is the deception of the devil to define grace as lawlessness. So under grace you can kill, steal, commit all manners of sins? No brother.

Grace is unmerited favour. Something you do not deserve but given to you by God and what is that? Salvation. We are saved by grace: For by grace are ye saved
through faith; and that not of
yourselves: it is the gift of
God (Eph. 2:. After salvation, what is next? Lawlessness? ''But if, while we seek to be
justified by Christ, we
ourselves also are found
sinners, is therefore Christ
the minister of sin? God
forbid'' (Galatians 2:17).

Salvation, which is the work of grace is the beginning of righteous walk with God. The beginning of the fulfilment of God's law with enablement by the Holy Spirit.

Study Roman 7 thoroughly and you might discover that grace does not cancel the Law.

Goshen360:




My brother, I have studied Romans 7 and the whole of Romans as a whole. If any preacher\teacher of the word hasn't study Roman which is the entry point to the new covenant, such person is yet to begin.

I have never said, Grace means one is lawless. The laws we keep is in obedience to the law of the Spirit, not the Mosaic. This law of the Spirit, you as a Christ knows it is not right to steal, kill etc. But when you don't do these things, someone like you will see it as obeying the things written in the Mosaic law but no, it is not!

The people taught Paul was only talking about some aspects of the Law in Romans 7 but Paul showed that, he was talking about the whole law as one, the 10 commandments inclusive. We're free from all the law. Our obedience is the the law of faith in th Spirit of God which leads to life.

Expanded Bible (EXB)
(Those who are not Jews [Gentiles] do not have the law, but when they ·freely [by nature; instinctively] do what the law commands, they ·are the law for themselves [or reveal their awareness of God’s law]. This is true even though they do not have the law [ the written law of Moses].

King James Bible
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Romans 2:14

^ The above verses says:

1. The Gentiles, that is, YOU & ME....DO NOT HAVE THE LAW. That is, the Law OF MOSES wasn't written to US
2. It says, WE DO THINGS contained in the law. How? By our nature.....I would call this OUR NEW NATURE in Christ
3. This does not equal obeying the law of Moses even though we see ourselves carrying out what's written in the law of Moses. We are only carrying out BY NATURE of our new man, things contained in the law. So, the Spirit of God in you doesn't tell you to steal, kill, murder etc.

Goshen360:




My brother, I have studied Romans 7 and the whole of Romans as a whole. If any preacher\teacher of the word hasn't study Roman which is the entry point to the new covenant, such person is yet to begin.

I have never said, Grace means one is lawless. The laws we keep is in obedience to the law of the Spirit, not the Mosaic. This law of the Spirit, you as a Christ knows it is not right to steal, kill etc. But when you don't do these things, someone like you will see it as obeying the things written in the Mosaic law but no, it is not!

The people taught Paul was only talking about some aspects of the Law in Romans 7 but Paul showed that, he was talking about the whole law as one, the 10 commandments inclusive. We're free from all the law. Our obedience is the the law of faith in th Spirit of God which leads to life.

Expanded Bible (EXB)
(Those who are not Jews [Gentiles] do not have the law, but when they ·freely [by nature; instinctively] do what the law commands, they ·are the law for themselves [or reveal their awareness of God’s law]. This is true even though they do not have the law [ the written law of Moses].

King James Bible
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Romans 2:14

^ The above verses says:

1. The Gentiles, that is, YOU & ME....DO NOT HAVE THE LAW. That is, the Law OF MOSES wasn't written to US
2. It says, WE DO THINGS contained in the law. How? By our nature.....I would call this OUR NEW NATURE in Christ
3. This does not equal obeying the law of Moses even though we see ourselves carrying out what's written in the law of Moses. We are only carrying out BY NATURE of our new man, things contained in the law. So, the Spirit of God in you doesn't tell you to steal, kill, murder etc.

truthman2012:

God at no time canceled the Law given to Moses. In fact Jesus said he came to fulfil it.
Think not that I am come to
destroy the law, or the
prophets: I am not come to
destroy, but to fulfil (Mat. 5:17). Jesus fulfilled the law, setting an example for us.
Please note that you are no more a gentile as soon as you come under the new covenant of Christ. God didn't have a different set of laws for converted gentiles. We are subject to the same Law of God as contained in the bible.
It is the same Law of Moses the bible says God would write in our hear and mind under the dispensation of grace, which is known as the law of the spirit as it is no more on paper, (Heb. 10:16). God did not have any other Law. If the Laws of Moses are irrevant to us, why would God write them in our heart? Hebrews 10:16 is the fulfilment of Jeremiah 31:33, which says and I quote '“This is the
covenant I will
make with the
people of Israel
after that
time,” declares the
LORD.
“I will put my law
in their minds
and write it
on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will
be my people.
Tell me, which law is being referred to here?
If Law and Grace don't co-exist as you earlier said, why are we to obey the law under the grace dispensation, which you have agreed?
Anyway, since you have agreed that despite grace we still have to keep the law, I think we have arrived at a common conclusion. But I want to reiterate that the difference between Law and Grace is that the former is on paper, in which people were under the burden of the law of the flesh while the latter is the law of the spirit, written in our heart and made easy to keep by the enablement of the Holy Spirit. We cannot afford to be lawless as children of God.

malvisguy212:
among your conclusion,this confused me;
1. The Gentiles, that is, YOU & ME....DO
NOT HAVE THE LAW. That is, the Law OF
MOSES wasn't written to US.

Jesus quote the law of Moses and claimed to fullfiled this law, now if the law of Moses wasn't written to us as you said, doesent this mean christ wasn't sent to All nation? But to the Jews? Remember,in acts1:6-8 Jesus command his disciples to preach to All nation.

The second paragraph in the op say;
"When the law was introduced, it was
never intended to be the instrument by
which man would save himself, but it
was the instrument through which man
was to be saved."

Goshen360:


Chai, it seems you're still confused or you just want to believe what you want to believe. The Mosaic law as a whole is ABOLISHED by the finished works of Christ, the 10 commandments inclusive. You're left with the law of the Spirit of life through Christ.

If you don't understand the above statement, I will find time to explain but not now. You're mixing up things that's why you thinking the law God was going to write in our heart or spirit is the same as the mosaic law. I will open scriptures for you whenever I have the time.

God bless you!

Goshen360:


When you study every context of Christ ministry, you will see some contradicting statement. At a point, Christ said, don't go to the gentiles. At another point, he said go to all. It was also written, he came to save HIS OWN people. Another said, to save the whole world. At some point, he gives harder laws and at some point, he violates things written in the law. That tells me, it is not what the law says to do but what was written about him in the law that he came to fulfil.

Paul the Apostle by revelation said, Christ came to redeem THOSE under the law. First, who are those people? You and me? Certainly not. 2. If he was redeeming them from under the law, is he putting them back under the law from which he redeemed them?

So, to your questions. Christ operated under the FLESH that is, atmosphere of the law to bury people in the law and he operated under the SPIRIT, that's atmosphere of Grace and truth to show the glimpse of the new covenant. These things you will read in the epistles.

truthman2012:


I'm eagerly waiting to read from you what law God promised in the OT to put in our heart in the NT if not the existing laws, which Jesus himself fulfilled.

God bless you too bro.

Goshen360:


You probably just want to believe what you want. I mentioned this, this law is not the existing law even though you find yourself doing things contained in the existing law. Did God put the law in you or His Spirit?

truthman2012:


Christ didn't redeem man from the Law but from the CURSE of the law (Galatian 3:13) The law becomes a curse when you are required to keep it compulsorily and you lack the ability to keep.

truthman2012:


Are trying to rewrite the bible to suit your argument? In Jeremiah 31:33, God said He would put His LAW in our mind and write it in our heart. This was fulfilled in Hebrews 10:16. Go and read them again and again.

Goshen360:


When you study every context of Christ ministry, you will see some contradicting statement. At a point, Christ said, don't go to the gentiles. At another point, he said go to all. It was also written, he came to save HIS OWN people. Another said, to save the whole world. At some point, he gives harder laws and at some point, he violates things written in the law. That tells me, it is not what the law says to do but what was written about him in the law that he came to fulfil.

Paul the Apostle by revelation said, Christ came to redeem THOSE under the law. First, who are those people? You and me? Certainly not. 2. If he was redeeming them from under the law, is he putting them back under the law from which he redeemed them?

So, to your questions. Christ operated under the FLESH that is, atmosphere of the law to bury people in the law and he operated under the SPIRIT, that's atmosphere of Grace and truth to show the glimpse of the new covenant. These things you will read in the epistles.

Goshen360:


Again, this law is the law of the Spirit NOT the mosaic law.

Misogynist2014:
Many think that Paul and Jesus contradict one another because one teaches grace and the other law, respectively. But its not contradictory, because Jesus said: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy,
but to fulfil.

Jesus fulfilled the law so that we will be free from law by grace through faith and believe in Christ( For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth
in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.) but as Christians we are expected to keep the law ( What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?) because the law is good. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is
written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: The Jews are under the law and will be judged by law, we are under grace and shall be judged by grace. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as
have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Even James showed how hard the law is( For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking
all of it.), howbeit, whoever keeps the law will also be saved but Jesus came to us so that salvation can be free gift, not to abolish the law since accepting law is accepting him because He is God ( In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God). For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: @ ifeness this is what is meant by fulfilment of law.

Misogynist2014:
Many think that Paul and Jesus contradict one another because one teaches grace and the other law, respectively. But its not contradictory, because Jesus said: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy,
but to fulfil.

Jesus fulfilled the law so that we will be free from law by grace through faith and believe in Christ( For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth
in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.) but as Christians we are expected to keep the law ( What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?) because the law is good. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is
written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: The Jews are under the law and will be judged by law, we are under grace and shall be judged by grace. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as
have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Even James showed how hard the law is( For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking
all of it.), howbeit, whoever keeps the law will also be saved but Jesus came to us so that salvation can be free gift, not to abolish the law since accepting law is accepting him because He is God ( In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God). For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: @ ifeness this is what is meant by fulfilment of law.

truthman2012:


What is your conclusion? Do you go about lawless holding on to grace?

It is the law that reveals sin as nothing is sinful if there is no law against it. Sin is breaking the law of God. No sinner under Law or Grace will go unpunished.

ifeness:


Any law that cannot be broken is a real law. If you can break it, it is fake. Jesus whose life was copied from Horus is fake. So we cannot say Jesus came to abolish a law which included killing of little children, discrimination against women, tribalism and other atrocities was real.

If Jesus and Paul both agreed with the 10 commandment, they must be two evil individuals.

Before anyone of you on this thread try to defend Fake Jesus and deluded Paul, you need to analys the rubbish Jewish laws first.

Do these laws go against Rape and Terrorism and Oppresion, including Slavery? If not middle figure to Jesus and Paul. They can shove the bible up ther asses

Misogynist2014:
Why then did Jesus die? Are you telling me you're righteous!?( 2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any
that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth
good, no, not one.) Salvation is by faith..... For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Misogynist2014:
Why then did Jesus die? Are you telling me you're righteous!?( 2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any
that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth
good, no, not one.) Salvation is by faith..... For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

malvisguy212:
Jesus died ,ressurected and live forever, if I believe in Him, His righteousness will dwell in me and I will be righteous, why won't I say I am righteous? God has already work salvation for me through Jesus, and I believe, what does it mean?

truthman2012:


So you can sin your way into heaven?

Look, a true Christian commits sin only by mistake, and when he realizes it, he ask for forgiveness and repents of it.

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth
sin transgresseth also the
law: for sin is the
transgression of the law.

I John 3:6
No one who abides in
him keeps on sinning; no
one who keeps on sinning
has either seen him or
known him.

I John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of
the devil; for the devil
sinneth from the beginning.
For this purpose the Son of
God was manifested, that he
might destroy the works of
the devil

I John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God
does not commit sin; for his
nature (seed) remains in him: and
he cannot sin, because he is
born of God.

What more?

If as a Christian you still indulge in sin, you are not under the grace of Christ, who is not a minister of sin.

truthman2012:


So you can sin your way into heaven?

Look, a true Christian commits sin only by mistake, and when he realizes it, he ask for forgiveness and repents of it.

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth
sin transgresseth also the
law: for sin is the
transgression of the law.

I John 3:6
No one who abides in
him keeps on sinning; no
one who keeps on sinning
has either seen him or
known him.

I John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of
the devil; for the devil
sinneth from the beginning.
For this purpose the Son of
God was manifested, that he
might destroy the works of
the devil

I John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God
does not commit sin; for his
nature (see) remains in him: and
he cannot sin, because he is
born of God.

What more?

malvisguy212:
Jesus died ,ressurected and live forever, if I believe in Him, His righteousness will dwell in me and I will be righteous, why won't I say I am righteous? God has already work salvation for me through Jesus, and I believe, what does it mean?

Misogynist2014:
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.)

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

But as Christians, we should we should obey law because it is good. But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 1 Timothy 1:8 ►

Misogynist2014:
Sorry I gave a wrong reply. This verse answers your question For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the
righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:21 ► All we need do is believe.

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Misogynist2014:
A lot of people don't believe salvation is free gift. My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

Goshen360:


That's your own interpretation. The law is but until the seed comes. Every context of the law where Christ used it to preach and teach, it is to bury those who were under the law and by his resurrection, those who believe in him, will be married to the resurrected Christ. Ask yourself, why would Christ come to "redeem" those under the law if they where suppose to remain under the law?

malvisguy212:
joyful77 if you don't understand the op enough, read this post, you will understand more.

ifeness:


Any law that cannot be broken is a real law. If you can break it, it is fake. Jesus whose life was copied from Horus is fake. So we cannot say Jesus came to abolish a law which included killing of little children, discrimination against women, tribalism and other atrocities was real.

If Jesus and Paul both agreed with the 10 commandment, they must be two evil individuals.

Before anyone of you on this thread try to defend Fake Jesus and deluded Paul, you need to analys the rubbish Jewish laws first.

Do these laws go against Rape and Terrorism and Oppresion, including Slavery? If not middle figure to Jesus and Paul. They can shove the bible up ther asses