1. Eve's Fault?
The three religions agree on one basic fact: Both women and men are created by God, The Creator of the whole universe. However, disagreement starts soon after the creation of the first man, Adam, and the first woman, Eve. The Judaeo-Christian conception of the creation of Adam and Eve is narrated in detail in Genesis 2:4-3:24. God prohibited both of them from eating the fruits of the forbidden tree. The serpent seduced Eve to eat from it and Eve, in turn, seduced Adam to eat with her. When God rebuked Adam for what he did, he put all the blame on Eve, "The woman you put here with me --she gave me some fruit from the tree and I ate it." Consequently, God said to Eve:
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you."
To Adam He said:
"Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree .... Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life..."

The Islamic conception of the first creation is found in several places in the Quran, for example:
"O Adam dwell with your wife in the Garden and enjoy as you wish but approach not this tree or you run into harm and transgression. Then Satan whispered to them in order to reveal to them their shame that was hidden from them and he said: 'Your Lord only forbade you this tree lest you become angels or such beings as live forever.' And he swore to them both that he was their sincere adviser. So by deceit he brought them to their fall: when they tasted the tree their shame became manifest to them and they began to sew together the leaves of the Garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: 'Did I not forbid you that tree and tell you that Satan was your avowed enemy?' They said: 'Our Lord we have wronged our own souls and if You forgive us not and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be lost' " (7:19:23).

2. Eve's Legacy
The image of Eve as temptress in the Bible has resulted in an extremely negative impact on women throughout the Judaeo-Christian tradition. All women were believed to have inherited from their mother, the Biblical Eve, both her guilt and her guile. Consequently, they were all untrustworthy, morally inferior, and wicked. Menstruation, pregnancy, and childbearing were considered the just punishment for the eternal guilt of the cursed female sex. In order to appreciate how negative the impact of the Biblical Eve was on all her female descendants we have to look at the writings of some of the most important Jews and Christians of all time. Let us start with the Old Testament and look at excerpts from what is called the Wisdom Literature in which we find:

"I find more bitter than death the woman who is a snare, whose heart is a trap and whose hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but the sinner she will ensnare....while I was still searching but not finding, I found one upright man among a thousand but not one upright woman among them all" (Ecclesiastes 7:26-28).

In another part of the Hebrew literature which is found in the Catholic Bible we read:
"No wickedness comes anywhere near the wickedness of a woman.....Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" (Ecclesiasticus 25:19,24).

Jewish Rabbis listed nine curses inflicted on women as a result of the Fall:
"To the woman He gave nine curses and death: the burden of the blood of menstruation and the blood of virginity; the burden of pregnancy; the burden of childbirth; the burden of bringing up the children; her head is covered as one in mourning; she pierces her ear like a permanent slave or slave girl who serves her master; she is not to be believed as a witness; and after everything--death." [Leonard J. Swidler, Women in Judaism: the Status of Women in Formative Judaism (Metuchen, N.J: Scarecrow Press, 1976) p. 115.]

To the present day, orthodox Jewish men in their daily morning prayer recite "Blessed be God King of the universe that Thou has not made me a woman." The women, on the other hand, thank God every morning for "making me according to Thy will." [Thena Kendath, "Memories of an Orthodox youth" in Susannah Heschel, ed. On being a Jewish Feminist (New York: Schocken Books, 1983), pp. 96-97.] Another prayer found in many Jewish prayer books: "Praised be God that he has not created me a gentile. Praised be God that he has not created me a woman. Praised be God that he has not created me an ignoramus." [Swidler, op. cit., pp. 80-81.]


"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I don't permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. ..." (I Timothy 2:11-14).

St. Tertullian was even more blunt than St. Paul, while he was talking to his 'best beloved sisters' in the faith, he said [For all the sayings of the prominent Saints, see Karen Armstrong, The Gospel According to Woman (London: Elm Tree Books, 1986) pp. 52-62. See also Nancy van Vuuren, The Subversion of Women as Practiced by Churches, Witch-Hunters, and Other Sexists (Philadelphia: Westminister Press) pp. 28-30.]:

"Do you not know that you are each an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the Devil's gateway: You are the unsealer of the forbidden tree: You are the first deserter of the divine law: You are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God's image, man. On account of your desert even the Son of God had to die."

St. Augustine was faithful to the legacy of his predecessors, he wrote to a friend:
"What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother, it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman......I fail to see what use woman can be to man, if one excludes the function of bearing children."

Centuries later, St. Thomas Aquinas still considered women as defective:
"As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence."

Finally, the renowned reformer Martin Luther could not see any benefit from a woman but bringing into the world as many children as possible regardless of any side effects:
"If they become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth, that's why they are there"

Again and again all women are denigrated because of the image of Eve the temptress, thanks to the Genesis account. To sum up, the Judaeo-Christian conception of women has been poisoned by the belief in the sinful nature of Eve and her female offspring.
If we now turn our attention to what the Quran has to say about women, we will soon realize that the Islamic conception of women is radically different from the Judaeo-Christian one. Let the Quran speak for itself:
"For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise-- For them all has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward" (33:35). "The believers, men and women, are protectors, one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil, they observe regular prayers, practise regular charity, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His Mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise" (9:71). "And their Lord answered them: Truly I will never cause to be lost the work of any of you, Be you a male or female, you are members one of another" (3:195). "Whoever works evil will not be requited but by the like thereof, and whoever works a righteous deed -whether man or woman- and is a believer- such will enter the Garden of bliss" (40:40). "Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has faith, verily to him/her we will give a new life that is good and pure, and we will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions" (16:97).

It is clear that the Quranic view of women is no different than that of men. They, both, are God's creatures whose sublime goal on earth is to worship their Lord, do righteous deeds, and avoid evil and they, both, will be assessed accordingly. The Quran never mentions that the woman is the devil's gateway or that she is a deceiver by nature. The Quran, also, never mentions that man is God's image; all men and all women are his creatures, that is all. According to the Quran, a woman's role on earth is not limited only to childbirth. She is required to do as many good deeds as any other man is required to do. The Quran never says that no upright women have ever existed. To the contrary, the Quran has instructed all the believers, women as well as men, to follow the example of those ideal women such as the Virgin Mary and the Pharoah's wife:
"And Allah sets forth, As an example to those who believe, the wife of Pharaoh: Behold she said: 'O my lord build for me, in nearness to you, a mansion in the Garden, and save me from Pharaoh and his doings and save me from those who do wrong.' And Mary the daughter of Imran who guarded her chastity and We breathed into her body of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His revelations and was one of the devout" (66:11-13).

3. Shameful Daughters?
In fact, the difference between the Biblical and the Quranic attitude towards the female sex starts as soon as a female is born. For example, the Bible states that the period of the mother's ritual impurity is twice as long if a girl is born than if a boy is (Lev. 12:2-5). The Catholic Bible states explicitly that:
"The birth of a daughter is a loss" (Ecclesiasticus 22:3).

In contrast to this shocking statement, boys receive special praise:
"A man who educates his son will be the envy of his enemy." (Ecclesiasticus 30:3)

Jewish Rabbis made it an obligation on Jewish men to produce offspring in order to propagate the race. At the same time, they did not hide their clear preference for male children : "It is well for those whose children are male but ill for those whose are female", "At the birth of a boy, all are joyful...at the birth of a girl all are sorrowful", and "When a boy comes into the world, peace comes into the world... When a girl comes, nothing comes." [Swidler, op. cit., p. 140.]
A daughter is considered a painful burden, a potential source of shame to her father:
"Your daughter is headstrong? Keep a sharp look-out that she does not make you the laughing stock of your enemies, the talk of the town, the object of common gossip, and put you to public shame" (Ecclesiasticus 42:11). "Keep a headstrong daughter under firm control, or she will abuse any indulgence she receives. Keep a strict watch on her shameless eye, do not be surprised if she disgraces you" (Ecclesiasticus 26:10-11).

It was this very same idea of treating daughters as sources of shame that led the pagan Arabs, before the advent of Islam, to practice female infanticide. The Quran severely condemned this heinous practice:
"When news is brought to one of them of the birth of a female child, his face darkens and he is filled with inward grief. With shame does he hide himself from his people because of the bad news he has had! Shall he retain her on contempt or bury her in the dust? Ah! what an evil they decide on?" (16:59).

It has to be mentioned that this sinister crime would have never stopped in Arabia were it not for the power of the scathing terms the Quran used to condemn this practice (16:59, 43:17, 81:8-9). The Quran, moreover, makes no distinction between boys and girls. In contrast to the Bible, the Quran considers the birth of a female as a gift and a blessing from God, the same as the birth of a male. The Quran even mentions the gift of the female birth first:

" To Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. He creates what He wills. He bestows female children to whomever He wills and bestows male children to whomever He wills" (42:49). In order to wipe out all the traces of female infanticide in the nascent Muslim society, Prophet Muhammad promised those who were blessed with daughters of a great reward if they would bring them up kindly: "He who is involved in bringing up daughters, and accords benevolent treatment towards them, they will be protection for him against Hell-Fire" (Bukhari and Muslim). "Whoever maintains two girls till they attain maturity, he and I will come on the Resurrection Day like this; and he joined his fingers" (Muslim).

@op why did you stop? that is not the end of the Article By Dr Sherif Abdul

@op, my question is, if God forgave them, why are women still having birth pangs and mestrual issues?

dolphinheart:
@op, my question is, if God forgave them, why are women still having birth pangs and mestrual issues?

Birth pangs have nothing to do with any supposed original sin. My question to you, Do animals like goats, cows etc also suffer from birth pangs? If yes did they also eat of the fruit?

Binb:


Birth pangs have nothing to do with any supposed original sin. My question to you, Do animals like goats, cows etc also suffer from birth pangs? If yes did they also eat of the fruit?

U missed what I was trying to bring out. Birth pangs existed before the sin, the difference is in the experiencing of birth pangs . The punishment states "I will greatly increase "and not "I will give you" to signify that birth pangs existed before but was not as painful.
Neally all animals , if not all give birth unassisted, and humans are known to be the one experiencing the most pains when giving birth, abi no be so ?
So dnt you think the increased birth pangs experienced by humans and mostimes even cause death if not professionaly assisted is a result of the statement made by God in the bible
So if God forgave them, why do humans have such birth pangs ?

How do you know that humans birth pain is greater than that of animals and how many animal birth have you witnessed by the way, to have reached that conclusion?

Binb:
How do you know that humans birth pain is greater than that of animals and how many animal birth have you witnessed by the way, to have reached that conclusion?

95% can give birth un assisted . Animals that need assistance are animals that have defects in their body structure.
When animals give birth, the most are usually agile, ready to move, run and fight immediately after giving birth. You can't do that if you have just or experiencing severe pain. Some animals can even give birth standing .
When animals are in pain , they grow weak and can't fiction at optimum , but apart from tiredness, animals operate at optimum after giving birth.
The reverse is the case when it comes to humans as 95% cannot give birth unassisted, and I believe this is due to increased birth pangs .

so using ur logic that birth pang and menstruation is due to the original sin and the christian docrtrine that Jesus was sent to wipe away the original sin, why do christian women who beleive in Jesus's alleged death and resurrection still menstruate and have birth pangs

Binb:
so using ur logic that birth pang and menstruation is due to the original sin and the christian docrtrine that Jesus was sent to wipe away the original sin, why do christian women who beleive in Jesus's alleged death and resurrection still menstruate and have birth pangs

The result of believing in jesus ransome sacrifice and following Gods directive is the removal of sin from our body. This removal of sin comes after we have believed and act according to our belief till the end of our lifes . The faith we have is that our believe in jesus will be rewarded when we die or if his kingdom come and we are still alive.
So if you serve God in this sinful world till death, there is hope of ressurrection to a bright , sinless, perfect , happy future. This promise we have total faith in.

Despite the fact that there are some rewards for serving God now like peace of mind, happiness, humility, lack of worry, joy, and love among ur fellow brothers. The complete and full reward will come when jesus brings his kingdom to reign on earth and totally removes sin, its resultant effect and the one who initiated it in the first place.

so in other words, you beleive women (and men) are being punished for the crimes of their parents. Is that the christian concept of Justice?

Binb:
so in other words, you beleive women (and men) are being punished for the crimes of their parents. Is that the christian concept of Justice?

You can't give what you dnt have, when adam and eve sinned , they lost perfection (a perfect human body). An S shaped bread pan cannot produce an N shaped bread, therefore watever they do or produce can never be perfect again. This includes their giving birth, taking care of the child, living on the earth among themselves etc . they decided to be like God and determine their own ways. This God allowed them to do( after telling them the consequences), to show everyone involved, Satan, humans and other observers that his arrangement for mankind is the best for him and that Satans challenge on his sovereignty and right to rule and guide man is wrong. But God did not abandon us , he set in motion a way back to him right there and then. But to get back to him, we have to be sure and also show we accept his rulership and guidance more than what the world offers. If we do this till the end of our Lifes(even 150 years is short) we are assured of perfect , joyful, peaceful, perfect evalasting life(more than a billion years) devoid of pain or any misery. So showing to God , that unlike our first parents adam and eve,that we want to serve him,and that despite all of satans temptations and pressures , we will stick to jehovah. he will then reward us with the perfect life lost by adam but redeemed by jesus.

This your long epistle did not address the issue of punishing children for the sins of the parents please read my earlier post again

Binb:
This your long epistle did not address the issue of punishing children for the sins of the parents please read my earlier post again

Adam cannot give his children what he does not have. By the time He started having children , he was imperfect and thus cannot give birth to perfect children . He passed on sin to his children and thus the children have to live with the effect that sin brings to their body.
So it is wrong for you to say "children being punished for the sin of the father. The children can't be perfect and must suffer the effect of imperfection cus their father, adam, can't give them perfection. A father cannot give a child an inheritance he does not have , but rather will give the child the things he has, and in the case of adam, imperfection and its resultant effect.
Jesus has giving man the oppotunity of gaining that perfection back.

Have u forgotten your claim that menstruation and birth pang is as a result of the sin committed by eve? So in essence you are claiming that all women are being punished by the sin comiitted by their mother. That was why I asked if that is the Christian concept of justice. I.e punish the child for the sin of the parent. You have not answered that

Binb:
so in other words, you beleive women (and men) are being punished for the crimes of their parents. Is that the christian concept of Justice?

did quran mention why human are dying? Huh

Binb:
Have u forgotten your claim that menstruation and birth pang is as a result of the sin committed by eve? So in essence you are claiming that all women are being punished by the sin comiitted by their mother. That was why I asked if that is the Christian concept of justice. I.e punish the child for the sin of the parent. You have not answered that

this is why the ignorance of muslim fanatic do baffle me in order for you criticise another religion you will loose senses of reasoning. Then what do you know about whatever you sow you reap. Make the research by yourself tell your alfa that's using aljannu to work why the aljannu killing their children or is the children committing the crime?

Binb:
Have u forgotten your claim that menstruation and birth pang is as a result of the sin committed by eve? So in essence you are claiming that all women are being punished by the sin comiitted by their mother. That was why I asked if that is the Christian concept of justice. I.e punish the child for the sin of the parent. You have not answered that

Pls do not lie against me, I did not claim what you stated above.
In my explanations to you , I made mention of the fact that the sin they committed led to imperfection. There body was not perfect any longer . Therefore the result is increase in birth pangs. You made mention of birth pangs in animals and I told u the difference between the two , stressing the fullfillment of the word "increase" .

I thought you fully understood the biblical verse on increase in birth pangs and other ferminine issues that's why I never bordered to us the words "increase in birth pangs " in my first post which was in a form of a question and not a statement.

If I ever mentioned the word "menstruation" , pls show me where and ill explain . But if I did not , pls recall ur statement.

In my wrong assumption that you have a good understanding of the bible but wrong belief in its words , I added menstrual issues to my questioning . This was done on the thinking that you understand that those things where not there when eve was perfect . Eve did not have menstrual issues (problem related to mestruation such as pain ) before the sin.

I was saddened by ur latest post cus I feel u deliberately want to hold on to something despite repeated explanations by me on the issue of birth pangs .

In ur next post pls answer this : based on ur own religious beliefs. Is God punishing the child that inherited HIV from his parents cus his parents sinned.
Is God punishing a child that inherited painful degenerative hereditry desease just because his parents sinned ?

What is your proof that eve did not have "menstrual issues" before

Binb:
What is your proof that eve did not have "menstrual issues" before

Because, prior to the sin , her body metabolism was perfect. As a woman, she will have menstruation, but there will be no issues such as pain and other sicknesses related to that cycle. These is what God has promised to restore to us if we believe in him with our heart,and make declarations that jesus is the one he sent to be our savior.
In doing these , we will enjoy what is recorded in isaiah which says that there will not be pain and suffering anymore.
Nothing comes out of the mouth of jehovah and goes back unfullfilled.these the bible has proved on numerous occasions , that why we should have faith that the future promises will also be fufilled

How did you know that " prior to sin her body was perfect"

Binb:
How did you know that " prior to sin her body was perfect"

Because she was created by God .to God , all of his works are perfect

By "works" of God do you mean creatures of God? Are all creatures of God perfect too?

Binb:
By "works" of God do you mean creatures of God? Are all creatures of God perfect too?

All Gods creative works are perfect . He is a perfect God, and his creation are created to serve his purpose perfectly . In the case of humans , he gave them free will to decide if the want to follow his perfect arrangement or they want to choose there own way.

Is this merely your own explanation or do you have scriptural proof to back up your claim.

meanwhile, my original post raised many issues, why are u dancing around only one issue andvignoring the rest

I will back up my view on perfection with scriptural evidence when you tell me ur own view on perfect(ion) cus our scriptural understanding of that word might be different


Now let's look at the op's posts and look at the things I was accused of not looking into.



In the biblical account, God questioned adam and eve , and he passed judgement on their respective answer. This shows that the God of the bible is a God of justice, his judgement was based on their individual actions. The actions they took in eating the fruit caused their punishment to be proclaimed the way it was . Their punishment does not negate, alter or adjust what God said will happen to them if they eat the fruit. They will lose the life God gave them and the process of loosing such life is numerous. By their eating the fruit, they have decided to do away with Gods direct guidance and power and do things on their own(something man has shown to be incapable of). Since they where not created with this ability, the result was pain and different sorts of wahala which we see in the world today.
The bible has been consistent with the storyline of the event .
Adam was created and put into the garden. The purpose of eve s creation is also stated. adam and not eve was giving the instruction not to eat the fruit, and adam passed this instructions to eve. this is why Satan preffered to go eve and eve replied With "God has said" and not "God told me or us". U can notice that in passing judgement on adam , God said adam listened to his wife instead of to God .
What God said will happen to them, women being subjected to men, pain,sweat and death have also been consistent with todays reality. Which shows that the events as recorded in the bible are true.

Now u state that the quran said said that God forgave them and this means that he did not carry out his punishment of harm and Transgression.
Why did God still now send them out of the garden to face harm and transgression from that time till this moment if he has forgiving them.?
Or does it mean that even if they did not eat the fruit, they will still be sent to earth (driven out of Eden)in the condition they came in?
How come the resultant effect of disobeying God as recorded by the bible is being fufilled today.?
Is man created to perform some of the violent , painful acts it perfomed today from inception ?

What does the quran say as to the purpose of creating woman?

The quran did not state that the eve ate the fruit first , but the bible did , it explained the process and also explained
the consequences. A future prophesy which has been partially fufilled was revealed as a result of eve being deceived by Satan .



You are verry wrong about eves legacy, as pregnancy, menstruation and childbirth where all part of the makeup of a woman from creation, it does not delimit them as human beings or changes their role as God creatures, although some men have a wrong view of these and of their importance and role just as you claim that those who perpetuate violence in the name of ur God have a wrong view of the quran .
When a woman is pregnant,her body undergoes some changes, these changes are vital for a childs survival as the child will not survive if the changes does not occur and Gods command on pro-creation and filling the earth will not be possible.
Having a wrong view of these changes is wrong , so wateva any "saint Ivelivedbefore" or "st mywordsaretrue" say that goes contrary to the scriptures, it must be avoided.

You qouted Ecclesiastes 7:26-28 in ur attempt to showcase how u think the bible views women but you failed to realize the concept behind such statement.
Solomon was talking about the condition of a woman who is a snare and not all women , a woman who's heart is a trap.
The bible said that a woman was created as a compliment for man , a helper and not just for pro creation reasons, thus women have some qualities and makeup that are slightly more enhanced or repressed, totally different in structure and purpose, present in them and not in man ,or lacking in them and present in man, that enable them to compliment their men and perform what God created them for.
Women who missuse these qualities are described in similar words as Solomon described them and women who display good qualities are described as more precious than gold and other endearing qualities in numerous verses in the bible which you have failed to see.
Those verses does not condemn all women just like the numerous verses that talk about mens ruinous acts do not condemn all men.

I agree with Solomon on verse 28, there has only been one sinless man who has walked the earth out of all men (jesus) and no woman . Or does the quran give us an example of a woman who has not sinned. ?


You quoted Ecclesiasticus, I do not think its of divine origin so do not believe the quote. It might be a hebrew literature, but since its not added to the canons, it means its not inspired to the Jews.

The nine curses you say are listed by jewish rabbis have no link to the scriptures and because its the jewish rabbi that listed it does not mean its scriptural or it can be found in the bible. I find it had that you accept the claim of rabbi teachings which dnt have any reference to the bible , while at the same time reject hadiths which you view that its contents don't go in line with the koran.

The prayers of the present day Jews comfirms what jesus told the jewish religious leaders in his time, that they have added their own meaning and personal understanding to the law and teaching of the prophets . An example of these is on how they view and treat gentiles, they think one becomes unclean when he enters a gentiles home, something which their scriptures did not teach them .


To be continued .......