@4get_me,

I coulldn't have debated our Muslim friends better. Thank you, and a blessed Happy New Year.

Muslims do not believe that their sins are paid for, and that is the simple reason why they find it very difficult to accept that Jesus came to die for the sins of mankind. Well, it's not really surprising that they believe that because their sin according to the Quran will be weight and be accesde on the judgement day ( Quran 7 vs. 8:9).

But because the Muslims do not have assurance of salvation and they are feeling very uncomfortable about it, that's why they have to attack the Christians who claims to have such wonderful opportunity. What they could have done is to ask the Christians how their sins can be forgiven, instead they begin to jealous and wonder at such privilege given to Christians and trying to equate the their uncertainty about their sins been forgiven.

sokislam,

But because the Muslims do not have assurance of salvation and they are feeling very uncomfortable about it, that's why they have to attack the Christians who claims to have such wonderful opportunity. What they could have done is to ask the Christians how their sins can be forgiven, instead they begin to jealous and wonder at such privilege given to Christians and trying to equate the their uncertainty about their sins been forgiven.

can u tell me how sins can be forgiven? lets start from there

@sokism,

with reference to your post, i will be very appreciative if you can shed more light on how sins can be forgiven.

A devout Muslim certainly will be kept very busy in their religious life! Can this help to save them, though?

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost." (Titus 3:5)

It is not the works which man does that can save him, but rather it is of the grace and mercy of God who sent His Son Jesus Christ to die and shed His blood for us, and who rose again. Only by faith in Him can we be saved, and this after He calls us and gives us the conviction to recognise that we are sinners in need of salvation. Repentance, that change of attitude and heart towards our sin, must be had before we are in a position to come to God for salvation. If we refuse to accept that we are sinners who cannot provide our own way to God, then we cannot be saved nor enter the kingdom of God. There is nothing; no ritual, no ceremony, no pilgrimage, which human beings can perform and earn a spot in heaven. "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." (Isaiah 64:6) See, the Bible tells us that our efforts at producing our own righteousness are unworthy and flawed. Because of our sin, we are unclean things in the sight of God, and our works and rituals are worthless and filthy.

This applies to all of us, too. "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one, For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:10,23) Mohammed, as we saw, was a sinner. The Qur'an says as much. "Lo! We have given thee (O Muhammad) a signal victory, That Allah may forgive thee of thy sin that which is past and that which is to come, and may perfect His favour unto thee, and may guide thee on a right path." (Surah 48:1-2, Pickthal translation) Further, in Surah 40:55, "Then have patience (O Muhammad). Lo! the promise of Allah is true. And ask forgiveness of thy sin, and hymn the praise of thy Lord at fall of night and in the early hours." (Pickthal translation) Mohammed himself recognised that he was a sinner in need of forgiveness.

So, if all mankind are sinners, and works, rituals, and the like cannot save them, what can? As stated above, the only way to salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour, repenting of your sins and trusting Him to wash your sins away through His own blood which was shed to forgive sin. "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6) Salvation is only through the Lord Jesus Christ. No works can replace this. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber, I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, " (John 10:1,9) Jesus, the sinless man presented both in the Bible and the Qur'an who would not lie, said that He was the way to enter into heaven. If you are trying to get in by keeping the rules and regulations of Islam, you are trying to climb up some another way, and will not be able to successfully enter in. "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5: This is the love of God. We, who are sinners by nature and by practice, and who deserve the wrath of God by burning in hell for eternity, are freely given the opportunity to escape that fate, without work on our part, and without it costing us a thing. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: It is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9) Salvation is by grace, through faith, His gift to us. We don't need to work, we only need to believe and trust in Him for our salvation. Doing good works and living a moral life cannot save. In fact, human beings are not even ABLE to live a truly moral life unless they have the Spirit of God residing in them, whom we receive upon trusting Christ to salvation. Think about it. No matter how moral you may appear to other people, you know that there is some sin which you have in your life which will condemn you to hell. Why try to strive to earn a salvation which cannot be earned? Jesus said, "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." (Matthew 11:28) Lay the heavy burden of your sins and guilt at His feet, and take Him as your Saviour, and be saved!

Again, I'm impressed. Thank you, sokislam.

However, I wonder what our friends have up their sleeves in asking:

muske:

can u tell me how sins can be forgiven? lets start from there

It sounds as though you chaps do not believe in the forgiveness of sins. Of course, I'm not speaking broadly of the mindset of many muslims, that's why I'm careful to narrow my enquiries to you for now and try to see where you're both coming from.

malik & SOKSAM,

lets start from here

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:10,23)

WHO IS THIS ALL?

AND WHY DID ALL SINNED?

malik & SOKSAM,

lets start from here, it will be one after the other in order not to muddle up things.

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:10,23)

WHO IS THIS ALL?

AND WHY DID ALL SIN?

am waiting

You have always "waited".

Just to understand your bearing: are you trying so hard to understand issues, or you just want to see if the answers proferred square with your personal, limited view of Islam?

Let's start by asking you this: why does Romans 3:10, 23 bother you?

If you're trying to exonerate Muhammad of sins, then I'll be back to rub minds with you. if not, please be my guest and let's discuss this interesting subject.

Sallam.

It's not a surprise to me that our Muslim brothers fails to understand what was said in the book of Romans, concerning the "ALL" that had sinned by putting Jesus in the same shoe with the "ALL", but a clear understanding of the Bible will show us that this verse does not include Jesus at all, it even help to show that Jesus is sinless rather than being a sinner.

I will like to bring out some bible verses that will serve as an evidence to what I have just said, this verses show categorically that Jesus was never a sinner. I Quote:

2 Corinthians 5:21: "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

Hebrews 4:15: "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

1 Peter 2:21-22: ", because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth."
bullet 1John 3:5: "And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin."

Now let us listen to what Jesus himself said about this Issue:

John 8 :46: Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

That is Jesus' own word, so I wonder where our Muslims brothers get their theory from?, I hope they will go and do a lot more research from their Imam and Alfas.

Now evidence of Jesus's sinlessness in the Qur'an:
In three different translation of the Qur'an, notice words like Pure, Holy and Fautless in the following verses.

[Shakir 19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of your Lord: That I will give you a pure boy.


[Yusufali 19:19] He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.


[Pickthal 19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.





In the Hadith,

Narrated Said bin Al-Musaiyab:
Abu Huraira said, "I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, "There is none born among the off-spring of Adam, but Satan touches it. A child therefore, cries loudly at the time of birth because of the touch of Satan, EXCEPT MARY AND HER CHILD." Then Abu Huraira recited: "And I seek refuge with You for her and for her offspring from the outcast Satan" (3.36) (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 641; see also Volume 4, Book 54, Number 506)

A word is enough for the wise, these I suppose should make our Muslim brother think and seek for how their sins can be forgiven, instead of rejecting and mocking the one that can save them from their sins.

May God bless you my Muslim friends.

Good piece, Sokislam.

@malik,

u talked as if u dont understand the issue. am concerned about this verse cos thats the verse they used in deceiving you and you did same trying to deceive me as uve been. am very sure they must have used this verse and others to convert you.

u quoted a verse for me and i asked you the meaning, u diverted to the issue of sinlesslessness of muhammed.

u claimed that jesus came to die for christians sin u quoted the above verse and i asked you who the verse was referring to as ALL HAVE SINNED.

i wasnt referring to jesus but asking you who is this 'all'.

and why did 'all sin'

soksam,,

i never said the verse was referring to jesus. all i asked of you are simple questions that,

1. who is this ALL in the romans all have sinned.

2. why did all sin?

The "ALL" that had sinned were HUMANS IN GENERAL, then I am waiting for your answer.

@soksam,

it means all humans have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

1. why did all humans have to sin.

2. how did all humans sin

babs787:

@soksam,

it means all humans have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

1. why did all humans have to sin.

2. how did all humans sin

Chei,God help the teachers that attempted educating this one.
They must be in therapy as we speak.

How did all humans sin?
Read Romans Chapter 5 for any one sincerely seeking the truth.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=5&version=nkjv

The bible makes it clear how.
That's the reason a Child is not taught to lie or deceive.
Children have been known to kill also.
They learn it by the Adamic sinful nature inherent in man.

just as sin entered in by one mans disobedience,Grace and redemption came in by Christ.
Sin could only be atoned for by blood,in the old testament the blood of bulls and rams were used,it only covered sins.
A final sacrifice was made by one who knew no sin as prophecied hundreds of years prior.

To all who received him,He gave power to become Gods sons(not just slaves).
He calls us sons and daughters and fellow heirs with him.

professor babysis,

no wonder u dont the difference between recite and interprete. so how and why are same.

how did sin all sin:

Rom 5:12   Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--
Rom 5:17   For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18   Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
Rom 5:19   For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
Rom 5:20   Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,
Rom 5:21   so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

why did all sin:

cos adam eat the forbidden tree, abi no be so.

in order not to waste time babysin,

let me refresh your memory, cos Adam and Eve sinned, God cursed Adam and Eve in Genesis, if jesus came to die for that sin.

1. why is the curse still there and hangs on every generation of Adam.gen 3v14-19. he came to die for the sin, why do we still have the curse not removed for the fact that he came to die for it?

2. why did jesus not come immediately after Adam committed the sin and had to wait till many generations had passed away?

3.  for what purpose did he intend to delay the cru7cifiction till some thousand years after the event.

4.  if jesus actually came to die for your sin , and that salvation lies in his blood sacrifice, why did he preached repentance in mathew 4v17

5. if all person are under the stain of original sin, why are children exempted (they r also born of a woman as in job 25 v4) as in  mathew 18v3-6.

6. where did he say he came to die for sin in the bible?

7. u claimed jesus is God, must he punish himself before he can forgive sin?

8. the motive for any punishmewnt is to check evil and reform the sinner, without doubt, to punish someone for his past sins even after somone had died for that sin is a sign of vengeance and not justice!!

9.  if jesus can die for the sin of man, why did he plead to God in mathew 26v38-39.

10. if jesus came to die, why is he afraid of death in john 11v53: then from that day forth, they took counsel togetherr to put him to death. esus therefore walked no more in openly among the jews but wenjt unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called ephraim and there continued with his disciples.

11. if he had prepared to die for the sin of man, why was judas named traitor.

12. why do we accuse jew of handling him for what he came to do?


these and many more when u finish with those above.

professor babysis,

no wonder u dont know the difference between recite and interprete. so how and why are same.

how did sin all sin:

Rom 5:12   Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--
Rom 5:17   For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18   Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
Rom 5:19   For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
Rom 5:20   Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,
Rom 5:21   so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

why did all sin:

cos adam eat the forbidden tree, abi no be so.

in order not to waste time babysin,

let me refresh your memory, cos Adam and Eve sinned, God cursed Adam and Eve in Genesis, if jesus came to die for that sin.

1. why is the curse still there and hangs on every generation of Adam.gen 3v14-19. he came to die for the sin, why do we still have the curse not removed for the fact that he came to die for it?

2. why did jesus not come immediately after Adam committed the sin and had to wait till many generations had passed away?

3.  for what purpose did he intend to delay the cru7cifiction till some thousand years after the event.

4.  if jesus actually came to die for your sin , and that salvation lies in his blood sacrifice, why did he preached repentance in mathew 4v17

5. if all person are under the stain of original sin, why are children exempted (they r also born of a woman as in job 25 v4) as in  mathew 18v3-6.

6. where did he say he came to die for sin in the bible?

7. u claimed jesus is God, must he punish himself before he can forgive sin?

8. the motive for any punishmewnt is to check evil and reform the sinner, without doubt, to punish someone for his past sins even after somone had died for that sin is a sign of vengeance and not justice!!

9.  if jesus can die for the sin of man, why did he plead to God in mathew 26v38-39.

10. if jesus came to die, why is he afraid of death in john 11v53: then from that day forth, they took counsel togetherr to put him to death. esus therefore walked no more in openly among the jews but wenjt unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called ephraim and there continued with his disciples.

11. if he had prepared to die for the sin of man, why was judas named traitor.

12. why do we accuse jew of handling him for what he came to do?


these and many more when u finish with those above.

babysis,

sorry for the typographical error up, but still refer to the questions up.

thank you

babs787,

Are you prepared to receive answers or you are just here to waste people's time. Your antecedents show that you never acccept a fact if it contradicts your preconceived notions.

tayod,

stop wasting time and go straight to your answer. an answer for a question.

^ if he answers you, then don't come typing some stupid bullshit that TayoD didn't answer your questions as you have done in other threads.

babs787:

1. why is the curse still there and hangs on every generation of Adam.gen 3v14-19.

1 Cor. 15:22 - "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

babs787:

he came to die for the sin, why do we still have the curse not removed for the fact that he came to die for it?

Gal. 3:13 - "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree."

Rom. 8:19-23
"For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

babs787:

2. why did jesus not come immediately after Adam committed the sin and had to wait till many generations had passed away?

Gal. 4:4-5
"But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Heb. 11:40
"This was because God had something better in store for us. And He did not want them to reach the goal of their faith without us." (CEV)

babs787:

3.  for what purpose did he intend to delay the cru7cifiction till some thousand years after the event.

Same as answered for #2 above, but see also:
1 Tim 2:6 - "Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. "

babs787:

4.  if jesus actually came to die for your sin , and that salvation lies in his blood sacrifice, why did he preached repentance in mathew 4v17

Jesus: "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." [Luke 13:3]

Heb. 9:22
"The Law says that almost everything must be sprinkled with blood, and no sins can be forgiven unless blood is offered."

Heb. 9:14
"How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"

babs787:

5. if all person are under the stain of original sin, why are children exempted (they r also born of a woman as in job 25 v4) as in  mathew 18v3-6.

Deut. 1:39
"Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it."

Matt. 18:10 & 14
"Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. . . Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish."

babs787:

6. where did he say he came to die for sin in the bible?

Matt. 20:28
"Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."

Matt. 26:28
"For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

Luke 24:46-47
"And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

babs787:

7. u claimed jesus is God, must he punish himself before he can forgive sin?

Heb. 1:3
"Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high"

1 Pet. 2:24
"Who His own self bare our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."

babs787:

8. the motive for any punishmewnt is to check evil and reform the sinner, without doubt, to punish someone for his past sins even after somone had died for that sin is a sign of vengeance and not justice!!

Read again I Pet. 2:24. Then the following:

Psa 89:14-16
"Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face. Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance. In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted."

Isa 53:5
"But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed."

babs787:

9.  if jesus can die for the sin of man, why did he plead to God in mathew 26v38-39.

He died for our sins, not His own because He had none. Further, His prayers were the climax of His earthly ministry, and that can't be taken to mean He could not die for the sin of man..

babs787:

10. if jesus came to die, why is he afraid of death in john 11v53: then from that day forth, they took counsel togetherr to put him to death. esus therefore walked no more in openly among the jews but wenjt unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called ephraim and there continued with his disciples.

The verse is 54 (not 53), and it does not teach that Jesus was afraid of death. Other verses show that He gave Himself willingly to death in view of the resurrection:

John 10:17 - "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again."

He was not afraid of death; for fear and love do not mix.

John 15:13 - "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

babs787:

11. if he had prepared to die for the sin of man, why was judas named traitor.

Because a traitor is one who pretends to have your best interest at heart but plots something sinister against you and your loved ones - and that is what Judas did. Nothing stopped Judas from repenting and receiving forgiveness - but his repentance was only after he was sure his plot did not work out.

babs787:

12. why do we accuse jew of handling him for what he came to do?

Acta 3:17-19
"And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, He hath so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord"

Rom. 11:1, 5, 11 & 23
"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. . .Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. . .I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. . . And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again"

babs787:

these and many more when u finish with those above.

C'est fini.  

Babs787, you often accuse us of not answering your questions. I've obliged you your request by taking up every challenge, bit-by-bit. try not escaping through the backdoor when my bros come around to load theirs for your answers. gbade has captured it well:

gbade. x:

^ if he answers you, then don't come typing some stupid bullshit that TayoD didn't answer your questions as you have done in other threads.

Cheers.

@ Shahan,
In the light of your brilliant exposee, i must say, you have not answered babs787, am most certain, thats what hes gonna tell you.

Nice response to him.

@mrptaki. . . I know, bro, I know. . . lol. Tee-he-hee!!
Let's just wait and see what's next when he shows up.

@ shahan:

nice write up bro. Keep serving it to 'em hot.

@ mrpataki:

ogbeni pataki, how u dey? hope say the Revving Rev no too dey give u wahala. . .

@ babs787:

ok, you asked for an answer to your question, now you've gotten one. So don't come up with some stupid bullshit about how your questions were not answered.

waiting to see his next question.
meanwhile he's yet to answer ours on this and other threads.
cele worshipper turned mohammedan.

So he was a Cele Worshipper!!!!!!

No wonder all the while.

You know must cele people never hear word once, you have to keep drumming it now and then.

Loruko Jesu!
Loruko Jesu!
Loruko Jesu!

So i guess you have to keep drumming the answers to him every now and then before he understands you a bit

@ Gbade,
Guy i dey oh,
The Revving Rev has been busy growing beards in the light of the scientific postulation that growing beards enhances sexual prowess, saw it on his kinky website.
Guess so much for the frustrated cow, must be somewhere sulking now.

LMAO! Reverend na sharp guy!!

Ogbeni Pataki:

o' boy, where babs dey now? Abi him too don go grow bia bia .

Don't forget Mr. Pataki & Gbade

Keep you Jesus of my penis and your bible off my balls
keep your prayers out of my ears and your crosses off my walls
You can keep the virgin mother and the resurection to,

keep your Jesus off my penis, I'll keep my penis off of you 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exDo2SMdB-0


Pataki Style Jesus   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZb2Ub1Ut4s


Gbade's Jesus   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCpBlZEDI3s


Mr Pataki's Favorite Toy 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBV_wzQ0pM4


Mr. Pataki as Jesus Christ Super self-servicer


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtxHm60XIVg