He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me." Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter. "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak." He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done." When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing. Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. Rise, let us go! Here comes my betrayer!"
 

People believe that the bible was written by "eye witness" who were with Jesus, saw and heard all that he did, why then are some of the stories written in the second or third person? Ok now let's take a look at the above passage, It clearly says that all of Jesus disciples were sleeping when he went away and prayed, how did they know what he said when it is very clear that he never told them because after the said incident he was taken away and crucified, how did the "eye witness" writer of this passage know what had transpired when it was written that they were sleeping? how did he("eye witness" writer) know when he was supposed to be among all the disciples that were sleeping?

By the way who was Jesus praying to? I brought this up because 4him on another thread said that since Jesus is God he does not need to dance and sing praises to himself because he is God.

4him said 1. Jesus Christ is God Himself . . . to whom would He have been dancing and singing to?

Since Jesus Christ is God to whom was he praying and crying to? or why was Jesus praying and crying to himself?

R u being forced into Christainity?
Who wrote the story on Creation? Was there a 'eye witness' ?. . .

Christainity is a faith-based religion hence no one is forced into it.

We believe in what we want to believe either lies or truth. . .
Proof/Evidence is not what makes us believe, it's the work of faith. . .The former only confirms the function/purpose of the latter.

Nobody but a fool would believe that the New Testament was written by either the disciples or by actual eye-witnesses.
The general thought (even amongst most churches) is that the Gospels were written by people who had the information handed down to them. The only exception to the rule is the work of Paul (who was not a disciple nor had he ever met Jesus).
Evangelicals would beg to differ, but since when have they been party to any sort of logic?

Bindex,the scriptures are not merely the words of men but hte words of God.They contain divine inspiration and illumination.They reveal to us the truth about God.There are various possibilities as to how the writers could have known those words.Firstly,it could have been revealed to them.God gives revelations to his people.e.g He could reveal information about someone that you're counselling without previous knowledge of it.Secondly,they could have been told,there's that possibility.Jesus was with them for many days after His ressurection.I don't think they were just winking at each other or giving each other thumbs up during those days.Its possible that Jesus relayed to them,the events.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Unfortunately,I'll not be suprised if you do not understand this possibilities.All the best though.

@Poster,

Thank you for gradually coming out of the dark ages to which black Africans have been enslaved, mind body and soul, also thank you for raising observations i had seen but no body else is seeing.

Please go back and analyze christ's statement and words and see whether he could have said those thinks. I mean Jesus never spoke personally with anybody in a kind of dialogue, he was always speaking generally in a kind of monologue. For example if a question is asked of christ like what is your name?, he would go on and say something like why do you people of a wasted generation want to know my name, a name is not important but the work that is to be done, it is only yhe father that can know the true name which is pleasing to him , , he would go on and on as if he is talking to an audience, without actually answering the question to the person who asked. Please go back and re-read all christ's statements and words and tell me what you think.

Czarskit:

R u being forced into Christainity?
Who wrote the story on Creation? Was there a 'eye witness' ?. . .

Christainity is a faith-based religion hence no one is forced into it.

We believe in what we want to believe either lies or truth. . .
Proof/Evidence is not what makes us believe, it's the work of faith. . .The former only confirms the function/purpose of the latter.

Please go and read the history of European countries like Poland and Germany (Bavaria), whole communities were killed and taken over because they were Pagans.

Even in Africa Christianity was forced on our forefathers and they did not stand a chance at resisting, the Benin's and the Igbos put up a feeble attempt at resisting.

Image123:

Bindex,the scriptures are not merely the words of men but hte words of God.They contain divine inspiration and illumination.They reveal to us the truth about God.There are various possibilities as to how the writers could have known those words.Firstly,it could have been revealed to them.God gives revelations to his people.e.g He could reveal information about someone that you're counselling without previous knowledge of it.Secondly,they could have been told,there's that possibility.Jesus was with them for many days after His ressurection.I don't think they were just winking at each other or giving each other thumbs up during those days.Its possible that Jesus relayed to them,the events.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Unfortunately,I'll not be suprised if you do not understand this possibilities.All the best though.

Mark which is agreed to be the first gospel written about 40 or more years after the said ressurection does not have any appearing of Jesus to his disciples in the original text, even the NIV version of the bible acknowledges this fact go and check it out.Why would such a great event be missing in the original version of the first gospel ever written? All the other gosples were copied from mark with so many other additions.

Do you believe in the contents of the gospel of Mark?Leave the dates that the gospels were written to those of us who believe the 4 gospels.They were written to complement each other,not to outdo each other or repeat or revise each other.

Image123:

Do you believe in the contents of the gospel of Mark?Leave the dates that the gospels were written to those of us who believe the 4 gospels.They were written to complement each other,not to outdo each other or repeat or revise each other.

I dont believe in the contents of the poorly written and very contradictory gospel. The dates are very important because only proves that the writers made the stories up. Why is it that non of what they wrote about Jesus is found any where else apart from the bible? Josephus wrote extensively about Herod but he neve mentioned any infanticied that was ordered by herod when Jesus was born. There was darkness and earth quake all over the land when the Romans crucified Jesus yet for over 3 hours yet no body cared to write about it, dead saints raising and walking the streets of Jerusalem still nobody cared to write anything about them. Jesus feed 5 thousand people with 5fish and 2 loafs of bread yet nobody cared to write about that exra ordinary even out side the bible. Its no lie that the first book of the gospel that was written is Mark and that was written about 40 years after all the said incidents. Just look at the gospels carefully and tell me if the writers ever knew each other or witnessed any of the things that they were writting about. Example when was Jesus crucified.

9:00 a.m. -- “It was the third hour when they crucified him.” mark (15:25)

12:00 p.m. -- Jesus was not crucified until after the sixth hour! john(19:14-15)

Eye witness wouldn't have made this mistakes would they?

The gospel writers wre present.I doubt if Josephus was a christian and he was not present,

Image123:

The gospel writers wre present.I doubt if Josephus was a christian and he was not present,

They were present but still manage to write what Jesus did in when he was alone in private? How did they know when it is written in the bible that all the so called eye witness were all asleep? And as for Josephus Christians are quick to shout Josephus mentioned Jesus in one of his writings but when confronted with the fact that Josephus who wrote very extensively about Herod never said anything about Herod ordering the killing of babies at anytime throught out his reign they shout Josephus was not an eye witness. 

Mr bindex,you need to be open and forget your prejudice to understand the Word of God.In my first reply to thids thread,I told you of 2 out of many other possibilities of how the gospel writers knew what they wrote,but you're obviously not interested in 'How did they know'.The spirit of the antichrist seems to be in charge of you.God will deliver you in Jesus' name

Image123:

Mr bindex,you need to be open and forget your prejudice to understand the Word of God.In my first reply to thids thread,I told you of 2 out of many other possibilities of how the gospel writers knew what they wrote,but you're obviously not interested in 'How did they know'.The spirit of the antichrist seems to be in charge of you.God will deliver you in Jesus' name

OK lets assume that the bibleGod allowed gave them the revelation, was he the one that also gave them contradictory revelations in the gospels? like the contradictory account we have of when Jesus was crucified which remains one of the biggest events in the whole bible.

Example when was Jesus crucified.

9:00 a.m.  -- “It was the third hour when they crucified him.” mark (15:25)

After 12:00 p.m.  -- Jesus was not crucified until after the sixth hour!    john(19:14-15)

It seems Jesus is not good when it comes to telling people what really happened to him. Is this the same God that revealed himself to the bible writers that told them to write this? They can not even tell the exact time Jesus was killed, Jesus'Crucifixion is one of the biggest events in the whole of the bible but they couldn't manage to get it right.

The Spirit of anti-Christ is defiantly upon me and I like it.

@bindex
Thank you for assuming.Its a step forward.As regards your question about contradiction,I thought I told you somewhere to at least get a good bible commentary.Since you 'read' the Bible,it might aid your understanding and help you/us to avoid this confusions to an extent.Lets see the passages.
John 19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
Mark 15:25 And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
In our days,we say something like 11th hour to mean lateness.Its not necessarily 11:00 sharp.It could be 1pm or 4am.Its not a lie,its simple human communication.In the times when Jesus was crucified,the people of that time did not have wrist watches or handsets.They used the sun,sundials and shadows etc.If someone said third hour,the people knew he was refering to some time around 9am-12noon.If someone said 6th hour,they knew he was refering to sometime arond 12noon to 3pm.Its a general time idea,no big deal about it except you want to make a big deal of it.If for instance,Jesus was crucified around noon,say 15minutes to 12,one could say the 6th hour,another could still say the 3rd hour.They're both telling the truth from their time estimations.Even today,we still look at our watches and make 'mistakes' as regards time,and most times,your wrist watch is not usually the same time with mine even though we work together.
John says about hte 6th hour,Marksays the 3rd hour and they crucified him.To me I don't really care if it was the 10th hour,the main point is that he was crucified.He died for me and for you and the whole world.And the purpose for His death was fulfilled.

[size=14pt]@ Bindex

Bros u seems to hanging in the "middle of the road". When the spirit of deception sets one ablaze, different thoughts can run through your mind bro. You sound extremely faithless and it seems you're yet to exhaust your thoughts about the topic you just raised. You think Bible is James Hardley Chase Series or what? Well at the peak of your thoughts, faith would set in and you'll begin to have better understanding of God and Bible.

There are "better" or naughty questions you could ask too bro such as:

1) How sure are we that God exist?
2) Why did God created the world in just only 7days and not 1 Mth?
3) Did God really created all the things in this world? etc[/size]

You cannot mock God Bro!!! You know how they would end abi?

Example when was Jesus crucified.
9:00 a.m.  -- “It was the third hour when they crucified him.” mark (15:25)
After 12:00 p.m.  -- Jesus was not crucified until after the sixth hour!    john(19:14-15)

This one takes more digging in the Bible. This difference, involves the Jewish times of the day, and our times of the day (the Roman time of day: 12am-11:59pm). Let's look at the Jewish times of day in the New Testament time: (hours are approximate because the length of the hour was not "set in stone" until about the 18th century)

Third hour--6am-9am
Sixth hour--9am-12pm
Ninth hour--12pm-3pm
Twelfth hour--3pm-6pm
First Watch--6pm-9pm
Second Watch--9pm-12am
Third Watch--12am-3am
Fourth Watch--3am-6am

The Roman times of day, are just as English Time, the Third Hour would be literally the Third Hour, from 12am (3am). The Jewish Day starts at about Evening of one day (about 6pm or so), to the evening of the next day, whereas Roman time, the day starts at 12am.

     In Mark 15:25 we see Jesus crucified in the Third Hour, which is about from 6am-9am. In John 19:14 it appears to be the Sixth hour, 9am-12pm, when Pilate brought Jesus before the crowd, right before Jesus was sentenced to Crucifixion! Is there a contradiction? It honestly appears to be . . . but it's not! The difference is the system of time that Mark wrote in, and John wrote in! Mark, wrote in the Jewish times of day, while John wrote in the Roman times of day! That might seem like a long-shot, but let's look at the context (not to mention, more highly studied Biblical scholars have said Mark seemed to write more after the Jewish manner, and John more after the Gentile/Roman manner) to check if this makes sense.

     Look at the time frame for this; Peter denied Jesus, The cock crew, then we see Jesus being led to the chief priests STRAIGHTWAY in the Morning (as said in Mark), and EARLY in the Morning (as said in John). Now for both Jewish times and Roman times, Morning and Night are the same, it is still dark at night and light during the day. The only difference is when they consider the daily time frame to begin. Morning, is Midnight and onward, from the time the moon begins to descend and give way to the sun. Something to note, is that the Jewish timing, counts also the Third Watch (12am-3am), as "cockcrow," and the Fourth Watch (3am-6am) as "morning." Though roosters crow throughout the day (believe me, I know, I used to live by one!) they are most noted for crowing in the early hours of the morning, this probably caused the Jews to also think of the Third Watch as "cockcrow," and honestly is probably the time when Peter heard it after denying Jesus! Then it says they led Jesus in the early morning, or straightway in the morning, which would then be considered perhaps as the Fourth Watch (also known as "morning" the way Third Watch is known as "cockcrow", between 3am-6am. Then we see Jesus Crucified (in Mark) DURING the Third Hour, from 6am-9am, and in John at the "Sixth Hour" about to be led to the hill to be crucified, which knowing to be the Roman time of day, is about the beginning of the "Third Hour" at 6am.

     All that, if we understand how John wrote in Roman time of day, and Mark in Jewish time of day, many other things make sense, even from the inscription on the cross, Mark says: "The King of the Jews," and John says, "Jesus of Nazareth The King of the Jews" It was written in three languages: Greek, Latin, and Hebrew. I believe Mark wrote the Hebrew form, John the Greek form. There is a clear difference between John's form, and Mark's form, because they probably did write, Mark, Hebrew form, and John, the Greek (or maybe Latin) form. Another thing that makes sense in light of all this, is that in John it is mentioned the "Seventh hour" (John 4:52). Unless it's mistaken, there was no "seventh hour" in New Testament Jewish time of day, but indeed there is in Roman time of day!

     Another thing that makes sense when we see that John wrote in Roman time, and Mark wrote in the Jewish time, is the fact that the Jews were rushing so they could eat the Passover meal and finish before morning or daylight (which Jesus being condemned in the area of 6am, and crucified in the Third Hour (6am-9am) that would have been possible). They are commanded to do so early and be ready to leave by morning . . . remembering the commandments from Exodus. Now, if John were speaking in terms of Jewish times of day, Jesus would be before Pilate, about to be condemned, from 9am-12pm. That would be far too late in the day. It would actually be close to the END of that day, and close to the BEGINNING of the Sabbath day, wherein everyone was to rest, not still deal with the passover work.

     These are a few clues in the Bible, that show how Mark and John still agree, yet Mark speaks in terms of the Jewish times of day, and John speaks in terms of the Roman times of day. The truth of the matter: Jesus was about to be condemned at about 6am or so, and He was Crucified a little later on, between 6am and 9am (probably closer to the beginning half of the "Third Hour".

http://www.workmenforchrist.org/Bible/BC_Jesus_Nets.html

[size=14pt]@ Janssen

Bros Janssen you shouldn't have used your precious time to reply Bindex and other Deedats like him. I have read Quran cover-to- cover and there are things that are still hidden from shallow-minded people like Bindex. Bindex with all due respect quote a verse from the Quran where it says muslims should love Christians, Jews and other faith as Brothers.

Firstly, l want to really know if you think God/Allah or what ever you seems to be worshping exist? Then l'll be able to you other questions.[/size]

bro bindex

iam so happy that the Bible was twisted for people like you not to fanthom so u wont lift up your voice and say we knew it>>>>>>>>>>

@ Janssen
The problem with apologies is that you will have to keep doing it till you die to keep you in your circle of delusion. You copied the opinions of a writer that simply twisted the truth to decieve himself and the people that will not want to agree that the writers of the gospel were not eye witness to what was written in the bible. They coundn't even get the time of Jesus' crucifixtion which happens to be the most important even in the whole of the bible right. You just copy and pasted the writting of a person that will prefer to tell a lie than to admit that he is not sure.

Janssen:


The Roman times of day, are just as English Time, the Third Hour would be literally the Third Hour, from 12am (3am). The Jewish Day starts at about Evening of one day (about 6pm or so), to the evening of the next day, whereas Roman time, the day starts at 12am.

The problem is that this assertion is false. From the Daily Life in Ancient Rome by Jerome Carcopino pp.167-8.

We see that the the Romans divided each day into 24 hours, and they assigned 12 to the daytime  and 12 to the night. These did not run from midnight to midnight as our modern method of timekeeping does, but from sunrise to sunrise. This effectively means that the length of the Roman hour varied according to the season, so that during the summer solstice around June 21st when the period of daylight is considerably longer than the night, the twelve hours assigned to the daytime would each have to be 1 hour and 16 minutes long, while conversely, during the short days of the winter solstice around December 21st, each daylight hour would be only 44 minutes long.

There were only two days during the entire year when the Roman day contained hours of exactly 60 minutes. These dates occurred during the equinoxes, when the length of the day is exactly equal to that of the night; the vernal equinox occurred every year around March 21st, and the autumnal equinox about September 21st.

This fluid method of timekeeping was perfectly natural to your average Roman, who was not governed by the same rigid schedules prevalent in our modern technological society and did not carry either a wristwatch or a FiloFax.

Table of Daylight Hours at the Solstices
Winter Solstice
     Hora from  to
I. prima 7:33  8:17 a.m.
II. secunda 8:17  9:02 a.m.
III. tertia 9:02  9:46 a.m. (3rd hour of the day)
IV. quarta 9:46  10:31 a.m.
V. quinta 10:31  11:15 a.m.
VI. sexta 11:15  12:00 noon
VII. septima 12:00  12:44 p.m.
VIII. octava 12:44  1:29 p.m.
IX. nona 1:29  2:13 p.m.
X. decima 2:13  2:58 p.m.
XI. undecima 2:58  3:42 p.m.
XII. duodecima 3:42  4:27 p.m.
 
Summer Solstice
     Hora from to
I. prima 4:27  5:42 a.m.
II. secunda 5:42  6:58 a.m.
III. tertia 6:58  8:13 a.m. (3rd hour of the day)
IV. quarta 8:13  9:29 a.m.
V. quinta 9:29  10:44 a.m.
VI. sexta 10:44  12:00 noon
VII. septima 12:00  1:15 p.m.
VIII. octava 1:15  2:31 p.m.
IX. nona 2:31  3:46 p.m.
X. decima 3:46  5:02 p.m.
XI. undecima 5:02  6:17 p.m.
XII. duodecima 6:17  7:33 p.m.

Table adapted from Daily Life in Ancient Rome by Jerome Carcopino pp.167-8.

http://www.roman-britain.org/calendar.htm

You can see from the table above that the 3rd hour of the day according to to the ancient romans was  9:02 - 9:46 a.m in the winter and from 6:58 - 8:13 a.m in the summer (That was when Jesus was crucified according to the bible). Your writer wrongly stated that accoring to the roman time Third Hour would be literally the Third Hour, from 12am (3am). That is wrong as you can see for yourself.

All that, if we understand how John wrote in Roman time of day, and Mark in Jewish time of day, many other things make sense, even from the inscription on the cross, Mark says: "The King of the Jews," and John says, "Jesus of Nazareth The King of the Jews" It was written in three languages: Greek, Latin, and Hebrew. I believe Mark wrote the Hebrew form, John the Greek form.   

The writer does not seem sure of what he is writing as you can see, he is just a very good apologist. Mark according to scholars was written by a Roman because scholars believe that the Gospel of Mark contains mistakes concerning Galilean geography and customs, the writer wasn't a Jew(but a roman) because he wouldn't have missed and made mistakes about basic georgraphy and customs in his narrative if he were truly a Jew. Mark also explains Jewish terminology which suggests that he's writing to a non-Jewish audience. The general theory is that Mark is a Hellenistic gospel, written primarily for an audience of Greek-speaking residents of the Roman Empire. Jewish traditions are explained, clearly for the benefit of non-Jews (e.g., Mark 7:1–4; 14:12; 15:42).

  Another thing that makes sense when we see that John wrote in Roman time, and Mark wrote in the Jewish time, is the fact that the Jews were rushing so they could eat the Passover meal and finish before morning or daylight (which Jesus being condemned in the area of 6am, and crucified in the Third Hour (6am-9am) that would have been possible). They are commanded to do so early and be ready to leave by morning . . . remembering the commandments from Exodus. Now, if John were speaking in terms of Jewish times of day, Jesus would be before Pilate, about to be condemned, from 9am-12pm. That would be far too late in the day. It would actually be close to the END of that day, and close to the BEGINNING of the Sabbath day, wherein everyone was to rest, not still deal with the passover work

The problem is that your writer just made things up to keep him in his circle of delusion. He really does not know when the Sabbath begins at all.  According to the Jewish literacy a website that teaches the basics of Judaism, Jewish customs and culture  this is what you will see.

  In Jewish time, the day begins with the onset of night (the appearance of the stars) followed by the morning (which technically begins with the appearance of the North Star). According to some Jewish teachers, night and morning begin with sunset and sunrise respectively. For that is how the Torah describes it: "And there was evening and there was morning, the first day."  For this reason, the Sabbath begins on Friday night and ends with the appearance of the stars on Saturday night. The same is true for the major holidays such as Passover, Sukkot, Shavuot, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, the fast day of Tisha B'Av, and Hanukkah and Purim.

http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/Jewish_Time.asp

Your writer erroneously claims that the  Sabbath begins by 12pm. So there you have it.

When was Jesus crucified 3rd hour or 6th hour?

Was Jesus crucified the day before or the day after the Passover meal?

The day before

Jn.19:14-16
And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified 

The day after

  Mark 14:12
And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

Mark 15:25
And it was the third hour, and they crucified him. 

tonye-t:

bro bindex

i am so happy that the Bible was twisted for people like you not to fanthom so u wont lift up your voice and say we knew it>>>>>>>>>>

The bible was twisted for people like me not to understand it?  you sould have said that the bible was written in such a way that you will have to keep twisting your brains to accomodate the blatant contradictions. Who are those that know the bible? Do you know that because you guys keep twisting your brains to accomodate the bible and make it rational that is why you guys have more than 30,000 sects of Christianity(most of which are on each others neck trying endlessly to cancel each other out )? Keep deluding your selves.

@bindex,
I have read your piece. I wonder who you are trying to covince of all the balderdash you have been writing? you can write from now till infinity, but believe me, God is real and I pray he shows mercy on ian gnoramus like you.


you are just wasting your time!

virgie:

@bindex,
I have read your piece. I wonder who you are trying to covince of all the balderdash you have been writing? you can write from now till infinity, but believe me, God is real and I pray he shows mercy on ian gnoramus like you.


you are just wasting your time!

You can say that again.

@Janssen,

I must commend you for the good work of faith that your are doing here, especially for the website that you suggested. Apart from answering what seems to be apparent contradictions in the Bible, it went further to throw more light on the Septuagint, Textus Receptus and the history of the Bible. May the Lord give you more grace and wisdom as you continue to plunder hell and populate heaven in Jesus' name.

http://www.workmenforchrist.org/Bible/BC_Jesus_Nets.html

Bindex ; i can see that you have really caught this apologist with their pants down.

It is only fools that will keep on insisting that the gospels were written by eye witness disciples. how could eye witness who are supposed to be the disciples of jesus get all the stories so mixed up?

Where did jesus first appear to the eleven disciples? In a room in Jerusalem according to Luke 24:32-37

On a mountain in Galilee according to Matthew 28:15-17. Yet fools will still insist that the accounts were written by the eye witness diciples of jesus.

Where did Christ ascend from? From Mount Olivet according to Acts 1:9-12
From Bethany according to Luke 24:50-51.

how can eyewitness to events give such contradictory reports of events they were alleged to have witnessed as disciples?

virgie:

@bindex,
I have read your piece. I wonder who you are trying to covince of all the balderdash you have been writing? you can write from now till infinity, but believe me, God is real and I pray he shows mercy on ian gnoramus like you.


you are just wasting your time!

I am glad that you have discovered the wisdom in ignoring the guy and to pray for the likes of him that are confused, frustrated and bewildered by the devil's lies, I join you in praying for God's mercy that endures till our latest breath.

Why does the Bible speak from the third person singular instead of the first person singular? .This is as if someone is recording events of what God is saying. (For example Genesis 1:3 says) "and God said, let there be light, ," so it can not be God writing the Bible. The question here is "who is doing the recording?"

@Horus
The writers of the Bible range from Moses to John.What they wrote is God's Word.I don't think its simpler than that

For those that keep insisting that the gospels are eye witness accounts,how are the writers the gospels of matthew and luke supposed to have gotten the details of their stories? who witnessed these events? was the author of matthew riding along with the magi? was he at Herod's palace listening in on his conversations? like they poster said how did they know? why are the stories written in the 2nd or 3rd person?

would that also be an indictment on all biographies too toneyb?

davidylan:

would that also be an indictment on all biographies too toneyb?

The bible said the events were accounts of eye witness how did they know what jesus did when they were all sleeping? how did they know what happened in herod's palace?

7 Then Herod secretly called for the magi [/b]and learned from them the exact time when the star had appeared. 8 Then he sent them to Bethlehem, saying, ‘Go and search diligently for the child; and when you have found him, bring me word so that I may also go and pay him homage.’ 9 When they had heard the king, they set out; and there, ahead of them, went the star that they had seen at its rising in the east, until it stopped over the place where the child was. 10 When they saw that the star had stopped, they were overwhelmed with joy. 11 On entering the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother; and they knelt down and paid him homage. Then, opening their treasure-chests, they offered him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. 12 And having been warned in a dream not to return to Herod, [b]they left for their own country by another road.

this is a narrative not the writings of an eye witness.

toneyb:

For those that keep insisting that the gospels are eye witness accounts,how are the writers the gospels of matthew and luke supposed to have gotten the details of their stories? who witnessed these events? was the author of matthew riding along with the magi? was he at Herod's palace listening in on his conversations? like they poster said how did they know? why are the stories written in the 2nd or 3rd person?

Why do you keep insisting that the gospels are not eye witness accounts or that the gospels were not written by the writers the bible says? you are very fond repeating this lie over and over again.

dalaman:

Why do you keep insisting that the gospels are not eye witness accounts or that the gospels were not written by the writers the bible says? you are very fond repeating this lie over and over again.

Where in the bible did they "writers" ever claim authorship of any of the gospel writing? Even paul' letters who Christian scholars agree to be the oldest Christian writings have claim of ownership, paul readily admits that he wrote some of those letters, and you don't see him reporting in the second or third person accounts of events he witnessed.

Historical works at that time typically had a table of contents,the authors of the works identified themselves, and they were written in a formal style.we can begin with the wars of the Jews, by josephus. if you look at it you will see that he clearly identifies himself as the author.

WHEREAS the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that ever were heard of; both of those wherein cities have fought against cities, or nations against nations; while some men who were not concerned in the affairs themselves have gotten together vain and contradictory stories by hearsay, and have written them down after a sophistical manner; and while those that were there present have given false accounts of things, and this either out of a humor of flattery to the Romans, or of hatred towards the Jews; and while their writings contain sometimes accusations, and sometimes encomiums, but no where the accurate truth of the facts; I have proposed to myself, for the sake of such as live under the government of the Romans, to translate those books into the Greek tongue, which I formerly composed in the language of our country, and sent to the Upper Barbarians; Joseph, the son of Matthias, by birth a Hebrew, a priest also, and one who at first fought against the Romans myself, and was forced to be present at what was done afterwards, [am the author of this work].

Now at the time when this great concussion of affairs happened, the affairs of the Romans were themselves in great disorder. Those Jews also who were for innovations, then arose when the times were disturbed; they were also in a flourishing condition for strength and riches, insomuch that the affairs of the East were then exceeding tumultuous, while some hoped for gain, and others were afraid of loss in such troubles; for the Jews hoped that all of their nation which were beyond Euphrates would have raised an insurrection together with them.

http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-pref.htm

This is the preface to josephus' account of the war between the Jews and the Romans that lasted from 66 to 70 CE, resulting in the destruction of judea.this was also written at pretty much the same time that the gospel of mark was probably written.


we can also look at the works of Tacitus, which were written shortly after the gospel of mark was probably written

I BEGIN my work with the time when Servius Galba was consul for the second time with Titus Vinius for his colleague. Of the former period, the 820 years dating from the founding of the city, many authors have treated; and while they had to record the transactions of the Roman people, they wrote with equal eloquence and freedom. After the conflict at Actium, and when it became essential to peace, that all power should be centered in one man, these great intellects passed away. Then too the truthfulness of history was impaired in many ways; at first, through men's ignorance of public affairs, which were now wholly strange to them, then, through their passion for flattery, or, on the other hand, their hatred of their masters. And so between the enmity of the one and the servility of the other, neither had any regard for posterity. But while we instinctively shrink from a writer's adulation, we lend a ready ear to detraction and spite, because flattery involves the shameful imputation of servility, whereas malignity wears the false appearance of honesty. I myself knew nothing of Galba, of Otho, or of Vitellius, either from benefits or from injuries. I would not deny that my elevation was begun by Vespasian, augmented by Titus, and still further advanced by Domitian; but those who profess inviolable truthfulness must speak of all without partiality and without hatred. I have reserved as an employment for my old age, should my life be long enough, a subject at once more fruitful and less anxious in the reign of the Divine Nerva and the empire of Trajan, enjoying the rare happiness of times, when we may think what we please, and express what we think.

I am entering on the history of a period rich in disasters, frightful in its wars, torn by civil strife, and even in peace full of horrors. Four emperors perished by the sword. There were three civil wars; there were more with foreign enemies; there were often wars that had both characters at once.

http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/mirror/classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/histories.1.i.html

As you can see writers at that time claim ownership of their works if they are truly theirs(paul in the bible did the same). no where in the gospels did the writers ever claim any authorship. the origin of the gospels and the writers have always been unknown. at no point has anyone really known who wrote any of the gospels, when they were written, or even where they were written.according to the apostolistic tradition a gospel could only be considered "authentic" if it had a direct lineage to an apostle, thus the names assigned to each of the Gospels were given in order to help establish their authenticity.

@toneyb

The bible said the events were accounts of eye witness how did they know what jesus did when they were all sleeping? how did they know what happened in herod's palace?

You could very well ask that how did they know who gave birth to Jesus,were they there?

All scriptures are inspired by God. You can ask whatever you like is good. That does not change anything.