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Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity - Religion - Nairaland

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Pls Muslims Defend This, And Convince Me That Islam Doesn't Condone Violence / Muslim, Qur'an And Peace. ( A Call For The Reformation Of The Qur'an / Happy Reformation Day! (2) (3) (4)

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Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by lanrexlan(m): 12:20am On May 19, 2015
In recent months, cliched calls for reform of Islam, a 1,400-year-old faith, have intensified. “We need a Muslim reformation,” announced Newsweek . “Islam needs reformation from within,”said the Huffington Post. Following January’s massacre in Paris, the Financial Times nodded to those in the west who believe the secular Egyptian president, Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, “could emerge as the Martin Luther of the Muslim world” . (That might be difficult, given Sisi, in the words of Human Rights Watch, approved “premeditated lethal attacks” on largely unarmed protesters which could amount to “crimes against humanity”.)




Then there is Ayaan Hirsi Ali. The Somali-born author, atheist and ex-Muslim has a new book called Heretic: Why Islam Needs a Reformation Now. She’s been popping up in TV studios and on op-ed pages to urge Muslims, both liberal and conservative, to abandon some of their core religious beliefs while uniting behind a Muslim Luther. Whether or not mainstream Muslims will respond positively to a call for reform from a woman who has described their faith as a “destructive, nihilistic cult of death” that should be “crushed”, and suggested Benjamin Netanyahu be given the Nobel peace prize, is another matter.


This narrative isn’t new. The New York Times’s celebrity columnist Thomas Friedman called for an Islamic reformation back in 2002; US academics Charles Kurzer and Michaelle Browers traced the origins of this “Reformation analogy” to the early 20th century, noting that “conservative journalists have been as eager as liberal academics to search for Muslim Luthers”.
'Islam isn’t Christianity . They are are not analogous, and it is deeply ignorant to pretend otherwise
Apparently anyone who wants to win the war against violent extremism and save the soul of Islam, not to mention transform a stagnant Middle East, should be in favour of this process. After all, Christianity had the Reformation, so goes the argument, which was followed by the Enlightenment; by secularism, liberalism and modern European democracy. So why can’t Islam do the same? And shouldn’t the west be offering to help?
Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by lanrexlan(m): 12:22am On May 19, 2015
Yet the reality is that talk of a Christian-style reformation for Islam is so much cant. Let’s consider this idea of a “Muslim Luther”. Luther did not merely nail 95 theses to the door of the Castle church in Wittenberg in 1517, denouncing clerical abuses within the Catholic church. He also demanded that German peasants revolting against their feudal overlords be “struck dead”, comparing them to “mad dogs”, and authored


On the Jews and Their Lies in 1543, in which he referred to Jews as “the devil’s people” and called for the destruction of Jewish homes and synagogues. As the US sociologist and Holocaust scholar Ronald Berger has observed, Luther helped establish antisemitism as “a key element of German culture and national identity”. Hardly a poster boy for reform and modernity for Muslims in 2015.
The Protestant Reformation also opened the door to blood-letting on an unprecedented, continent-wide scale. Have we forgotten the French wars of religion? Or the English civil war? Tens of millions of innocents died in Europe; up to 40% of Germany’s population is believed to have been killed in the thirty years’ war. Is this what we want a Muslim-majority world already plagued by sectarian conflicts, foreign occupations and the bitter legacy of colonialism to now endure, all in the name of reform, progress and even liberalism?


Islam isn’t Christianity. The two faiths aren’t analogous, and it is deeply ignorant, not to mention patronising, to pretend otherwise – or to try and impose a neatly linear, Eurocentric view of history on diverse Muslim-majority countries in Asia or Africa. Each religion has its own traditions and texts; each religion’s followers have been affected by geopolitics and socio-economic processes in a myriad of ways. The theologies of Islam and Christianity, in particular, are worlds apart: the former, for instance, has never had a Catholic-style clerical class answering to a divinely appointed pope. So against whom will the “Islamic reformation” be targeted? To whose door will the 95 fatwas be nailed?

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Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by lanrexlan(m): 12:32am On May 19, 2015
The truth is that Islam has already had its own reformation of sorts, in the sense of a stripping of cultural accretions and a process of supposed “purification”. And it didn’t produce a tolerant, pluralistic, multifaith utopia, a Scandinavia-on-the-Euphrates. Instead, it produced … the kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
Wasn’t reform exactly what was offered to the masses of the Hijaz by Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab, the mid-18th century itinerant preacher who allied with the House of Saud? He offered an austere Islam cleansed of what he believed to be innovations, which eschewed centuries of mainstream scholarship and commentary, and rejected the authority of the traditional ulema, or religious authorities.
Some might argue that if anyone deserves the title of a Muslim Luther, it is Ibn Abdul Wahhab who, in the eyes of his critics, combined Luther’s puritanism with the German monk’s antipathy towards the Jews. Ibn Abdul Wahhab’s controversial stance on Muslim theology, writes his biographer Michael Crawford, “made him condemn much of the Islam of his own time” and led to him being dismissed as a heretic by his own family.
Don’t get me wrong. Reforms are of course needed across the crisis-ridden Muslim-majority world: political, socio-economic and, yes, religious too. Muslims need to rediscover their own heritage of pluralism, tolerance and mutual respect – embodied in, say, the Prophet’s letter to the monks of St Catherine’s monastery, or the “convivencia” (or co-existence) of medieval Muslim Spain.
More on this topi


What they don’t need are lazy calls for an Islamic reformation from non-Muslims and ex-Muslims, the repetition of which merely illustrates how shallow and simplistic, how ahistorical and even anti-historical, some of the west’s leading commentators are on this issue. It is much easier for them, it seems, to reduce the complex debate over violent extremism to a series of cliches, slogans and soundbites, rather than examining root causes or historical trends; easier still to champion the most extreme and bigoted critics of Islam while ignoring the voices of mainstream Muslim scholars, academics and activists.
Hirsi Ali, for instance, was treated to a series of encomiums and softball questions in her blizzard of US media interviews, from the New York Times to Fox News. (“A hero of our time,” read one gushing headline on Politico.) Frustratingly, only comedian Jon Stewart, on The Daily Show, was willing to point out to Hirsi Ali that her reformist hero wanted a “purer form of Christianity” and helped create “a hundred years of violence and mayhem”.


With apologies to Luther, if anyone wants to do the same to the religion of Islam today, it is Isis leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, who claims to rape and pillage in the name of a “purer form” of Islam – and who isn’t, incidentally, a fan of the Jews either. Those who cry so simplistically, and not a little inanely, for an Islamic reformation, should be careful what they wish for.


Mehdi Hasan is a presenter on Al-Jazeera English. The views expressed here are his own

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/17/islam-reformation-extremism-muslim-martin-luther-europe?CMP=share_btn_fb
Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by Empiree: 1:01am On May 19, 2015
lanrexlan:
Islam isn’t Christianity. The two faiths aren’t analogous, and it is deeply ignorant, not to mention patronising, to pretend otherwise – or to try and impose a neatly linear, Eurocentric view of history on diverse Muslim-majority countries in Asia or Africa. Each religion has its own traditions and texts; each religion’s followers have been affected by geopolitics and socio-economic processes in a myriad of ways. The theologies of Islam and Christianity, in particular, are worlds apart: the former, for instance, has never had a Catholic-style clerical class answering to a divinely appointed pope. So against whom will the “Islamic reformation” be targeted? To whose door will the 95 fatwas be nailed?
Nothing could be further from the truth.

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Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by Empiree: 1:07am On May 19, 2015
lanrexlan:
The truth is that Islam has already had its own reformation of sorts, in the sense of a stripping of cultural accretions and a process of supposed “purification”. And it didn’t produce a tolerant, pluralistic, multifaith utopia, a Scandinavia-on-the-Euphrates. Instead, it produced … the kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
Wasn’t reform exactly what was offered to the masses of the Hijaz by Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab, the mid-18th century itinerant preacher who allied with the House of Saud? He offered an austere Islam cleansed of what he believed to be innovations, which eschewed centuries of mainstream scholarship and commentary, and rejected the authority of the traditional ulema, or religious authorities.
Some might argue that if anyone deserves the title of a Muslim Luther, it is Ibn Abdul Wahhab who, in the eyes of his critics, combined Luther’s puritanism with the German monk’s antipathy towards the Jews. Ibn Abdul Wahhab’s controversial stance on Muslim theology, writes his biographer Michael Crawford, “made him condemn much of the Islam of his own time” and led to him being dismissed as a heretic by his own family.
Don’t get me wrong. Reforms are of course needed across the crisis-ridden Muslim-majority world: political, socio-economic and, yes, religious too. Muslims need to rediscover their own heritage of pluralism, tolerance and mutual respect – embodied in, say, the Prophet’s letter to the monks of St Catherine’s monastery, or the “convivencia” (or co-existence) of medieval Muslim Spain.

1 Like

Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by Empiree: 1:12am On May 19, 2015
lanrexlan:

What they don’t need are lazy calls for an Islamic reformation from non-Muslims and ex-Muslims, the repetition of which merely illustrates how shallow and simplistic, how ahistorical and even anti-historical, some of the west’s leading commentators are on this issue. It is much easier for them, it seems, to reduce the complex debate over violent extremism to a series of cliches, slogans and soundbites, rather than examining root causes or historical trends; easier still to champion the most extreme and bigoted critics of Islam while ignoring the voices of mainstream Muslim scholars, academics and activists.
Hirsi Ali, for instance, was treated to a series of encomiums and softball questions in her blizzard of US media interviews, from the New York Times to Fox News. (“A hero of our time,” read one gushing headline on Politico.) Frustratingly, only comedian Jon Stewart, on The Daily Show, was willing to point out to Hirsi Ali that her reformist hero wanted a “purer form of Christianity” and helped create “a hundred years of violence and mayhem”.


With apologies to Luther, if anyone wants to do the same to the religion of Islam today, it is Isis leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, who claims to rape and pillage in the name of a “purer form” of Islam – and who isn’t, incidentally, a fan of the Jews either. Those who cry so simplistically, and not a little inanely, for an Islamic reformation, should be careful what they wish for.


Mehdi Hasan is a presenter on Al-Jazeera English. The views expressed here are his own

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/17/islam-reformation-extremism-muslim-martin-luther-europe?CMP=share_btn_fb
@bolded blue, I hate hearing that myself.

Good job Mr. Hassan

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Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by Nobody: 7:48am On May 19, 2015
What exactly is a 'reformation' supposed to achieve? The xtian reformation was a replacement of one form of exploitative, man-made religion for another, just taking out what Luther perceived to be 'bugs'. Islam is already available in its pure, God-given form... are we to reform that? What Muslims need is to be more educated about the real Islam.

As for al-Sisi, the Kuffar west are just trying to goad him into eliminating Islam in Egypt altogether, by calling him a reformer. He is below zero; just some neighbourhood illegal two-bit tyrant with neanderthal instincts.

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Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by truthman2012(m): 8:47am On May 19, 2015
Islam cannot be reformed, it will contradict the intention of allahh (satan in disguise) to return the world to violence and paganism after Jesus had done the work of salvation.

It was when Muhammad went to worship Allah at Hira as a pagan that he claimed 'angel' Gabriel appeared to him. Which Allah did he go to worship at Hira as a pagan?

Then, Gabriel told him to continue to worship the same idol as the true God. When did Mutaleb idol (allahh) become the true God?

Because Allah is an idol, that is why the muslims worship him in the exact way pagans worshiped their idols before islam.

Quran 2:158 Pickthal] Lo! (the mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwah are among the indications of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who is on pilgrimage to the House (of Allah) or visiteth it, to go around them (AS THE PAGAN CUSTOM IS). And he who doeth good of his own accord, (for him) lo! Allah is Responsive, Aware

That quranic verse confirms the following hadiths:

Muhammad's pagan tribe, the
Quraish, fasted on the 10 th of
Muharram. Though optional,
Muhammad retained this pagan
practice too.

Narrated 'Aisha: 'Ashura' (i.e. the
tenth of Muharram) was a day on
which the tribe of Quraish used to
fast in the pre-lslamic period of
ignorance. The Prophet also used
to fast on this day. So when he
migrated to Medina, he fasted on
it and ordered (the Muslims) to
fast on it. When the fasting of
Ramadan was enjoined, it became
optional for the people to fast or
not to fast on the day of Ashura.
[Sahih Bukhari 5:58:172].

Doing Tawaf between Safa and
Marwa is an Islamic ritual
associated with the pilgrimage to
Mecca. Safa and Marwa are two
mounts, located at Mecca. This
ritual entails Muslims walking
frantically between the two
mounts, seven times. This was
originally a pagan pre-Islamic
practice. Muhammad retained it
for Islam, sanctioning it with yet
another Qur'anic revelation.

Narrated 'Asim: I asked Anas bin
Malik: "Did you use to dislike to
perform Tawaf between Safa and
Marwa?" He said, "Yes, as it was
of the ceremonies of the days of
the Pre-lslamic period of
ignorance, till Allah revealed:
'Verily! (The two mountains) As-
Safa and Al-Marwa are among the
symbols of Allah. It is therefore no
sin for him who performs the
pilgrimage to the Ka'ba, or
performs 'Umra, to perform Tawaf
between them.' " (Quran 2.158)
[Sahih Bukhari 2:26:710]

From the quran and hadiths, it is so clear that islamic Allah who has no Son is an idol (satan in disguise) and that is why he is worshiped like pagan gods.

Islam cannot go through reformation again because satan's intention is to throw the world into violence after Jesus had brought peace. allahh's problem is not polytheism, the Jews believe in monotheism, yet he ordered Muhammad to fight them too, why? The problem is: allahh is an enemy to the true God.

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Qur'an (2:193) - "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion be only for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers."

Bukhari (2:24) - "Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah.

Bukhari (59:643) - "Testify that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah, or else I will chop off your neck!"

1 Like

Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by lanrexlan(m): 2:31pm On May 19, 2015
^^ Sometimes, I think age is directly proportional to one's level of reasoning but post like the above is always nullifying my claim.
Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by lanrexlan(m): 2:45pm On May 19, 2015
Abuamam:
What exactly is a 'reformation' supposed to achieve? The xtian reformation was a replacement of one form of exploitative, man-made religion for another, just taking out what Luther perceived to be 'bugs'. Islam is already available in its pure, God-given form... are we to reform that? What Muslims need is to be more educated about the real Islam.
You can only reform man made ideas,not the creator's path in which he has chosen for mankind. Allah says in So set you„your face towards the religion of pure Islamic Monotheism Hanifa (worship none but Allah Alone) Allah's Fitrah (i.e. Allah's Islamic Monotheism), with which He has created mankind. No change let there be in Khalq-illah (i.e. the Religion of Allah Islamic Monotheism), that is the straight religion, but most of men know not.

2 Likes

Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by jcross19: 4:08pm On May 19, 2015
lanrexlan:
You can only reform man made ideas,not the creator's path in which he has chosen for mankind. Allah says in So set you„your face towards the religion of pure Islamic Monotheism Hanifa (worship none but Allah Alone) Allah's Fitrah (i.e. Allah's Islamic Monotheism), with which He has created mankind. No change let there be in Khalq-illah (i.e. the Religion of Allah Islamic Monotheism), that is the straight religion, but most of men know not.
don't deceive yourself allah can't safe you. Allah is gods who can't hear your language , asked you to face the kaaba when you pray meaning that's house or to the rising sun meaning that's where is living , it is not omnipresent that's if you don't face east it will not notice you and if you don't speak it can't what you are saying.I don't have face any direction before the living God notice because HE is the omnipresent and I don't have speak jewish before HE could hear because HE is optimum supremacy. That allah is toothless. Can any muslim do without charm?is not possible then why charm?
Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by Scholar8200(m): 4:24pm On May 19, 2015
Op, Luther, Wycliffe etc tried reforming the Roman Catholic Church, not Christianity nor the Bible. Their major efforts was not to correct the Bible but to re-emphasize truths long suppressed by the papacy, the major tool of the latter being their 'custodizing' and retaining the Bible in another language. This enabled them to teach all sorts of strange doctrines to the masses who had no access to the Bible.

2 Likes

Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by Nobody: 4:28pm On May 19, 2015
lanrexlan:
^^ Sometimes, I think age is directly proportional to one's level of reasoning but post like the above is always nullifying my claim.

Oh dont mind truthman2012. It's because you are not on this forum often. The 3 stooges (of which he is one), tend to grow on you eventually. You tend to learn to skim over their posts the way you do for ads... keeping an eye out for some new postulation (not too many of late. They are now recycling old topics).

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Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by truthman2012(m): 8:54pm On May 19, 2015
lanrexlan:
^^ Sometimes, I think age is directly proportional to one's level of reasoning but post like the above is always nullifying my claim.

I know muslims hate kafir just as allahh do. Even Muhammad died cursing the Jews and Christians. Abuses are nothing to muslims as nothing moral is there in their religion. I would not have said anything if you didn't mention Christianity.

What is incorrect in that my post that angered you? Is it the quranic quote or the supporting hadiths? Are they not authentic proofs that islam is clear paganism introduced by satan? Am I the writer or is from Christian source?

I remember your usual refutal to it: ''That was how Abraham and Ishmael were doing before pagans began to do same to their god''. Your quran says no messengers were in Mecca before Muhammad proving you a liar:

But We had not given them
Books which they could study,
nor sent messengers to them
before thee as Warners (Quran 34:44 YusufAli).

Since there were no messengers to the Arabs prior to the advent of Muhammad, why did you claim the pagan customs were initiated by allahh's messengers, Abraham and Ishmael?

Moses didn't worship the true God like pagans do neither did he enjoin the people to do so. Ditto for Jesus.

The blatant truth you may not find convenient is that satan disguised as the God of bible prophets, talked about them in a way you cannot completely understand, condemned the earlier Scriptures and established his own, the quran to take mankind to hell.

He kept changing his revelations and replacing them as if he was making mistakes. He never made mistakes, he was only manipulating.

May God deliver you from satanic deception.

3 Likes

Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by AllNaijaBlogger(m): 9:57pm On May 19, 2015
@ Empiree and Lanrexlan,

Everything needs a reformation.

Change is the only thing that is constant. Christianity has come to adapt environmentalism after modern science has shown us that our planet is dying.


Furthermore, many muslim nairalanders have pointed out that stoning is not the punishment for adultery. Unfortunately, there are some Islamic socieites where women are stoned.

Surely, don't you think that those societies should be reformed? Don't they need a more reasonable islam?


Peace. Salaam

1 Like

Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by malvisguy212: 11:14pm On May 19, 2015
truthman2012:


I know muslims hate kafir just as allahh do. Even Muhammad died cursing the Jews and Christians. Abuses are nothing to muslims as nothing moral is there in their religion. I would not have said anything if you didn't mention Christianity.

What is incorrect in that my post that angered you? Is it the quranic quote or the supporting hadiths? Are they not authentic proofs that islam is clear paganism introduced by satan? Am I the writer or is from Christian source?

I remember your usual refutal to it: ''That was how Abraham and Ishmael were doing before pagans began to do same to their god''. Your quran says no messengers were in Mecca before Muhammad proving you a liar:

But We had not given them
Books which they could study,
nor sent messengers to them
before thee as Warners (Quran 34:44 YusufAli).

Since there were no messengers to the Arabs prior to the advent of Muhammad, why did you claim the pagan customs were initiated by allahh's messengers, Abraham and Ishmael?

Moses didn't worship the true God like pagans do neither did he enjoin the people to do so. Ditto for Jesus.

The blatant truth you may not find convenient is that satan disguised as the God of bible prophets, talked about them in a way you cannot completely understand, condemned the earlier Scriptures and established his own, the quran to take mankind to hell.

He kept changing his revelations and replacing them as if he was making mistakes. He never made mistakes, he was only manipulating.

May God deliver you from satanic deception.



nice one, muhammed was demon possessed, he did not show to much emphasis on the pagan, but the christian and the Jews, he caused them, how can anyone believe muhammed? In some hadith he caused the christians but in the quran Allah promise the christians and Jew paradise,who are we to trust? Allah or muhammed?
Muhammed was demon possessed:

Al Hadis, Vol. 4, p. 359, Ayesha
reported that Haresah-b-Hisham asked
the Apostle of Allah and said, "O
Apostle, how does revelation come to
you?" The Apostle of Allah responded,
"Sometimes it comes to me like the
ringing of a bell...

" The bells of hell? The association with devils is more clear in the following:
Al Hadis, Vol 4, p. 360, Obadah-b-
Swamet reported that when a
revelation came to the Prophet, he
used to become greatly disturbed, and
his face became changed. And in a
narration, he would nod his head, and
his companions nodded theirs..."

Attested by Muslim. This has all the
marks of a trance or demon possession
complete with facial distortion.this is strange to the biblical truth, how can revelation comes to you as a bell? Here what the bible say on how revelation are sent;

2 Peter1:21, For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

There is no nonsense of bells ringing, which in our day is associated with witchcraft ceremony and demon possession. There are no bells in heaven. The shaking of the head, or palsy, is characteristic of devil possession as in the Bible, Matthew 4:24, And his (Jesus') fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and
those which were possessed with
devils...

1 Like

Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by Empiree: 11:22pm On May 19, 2015
Dont get it twisted. I will be back here
AllNaijaBlogger:
@ E.mpiree and Lanr.exlan,

Everything needs a reformation.

Change is the only thing that is constant. Christianity has come to adapt environmentalism after modern science has shown us that our planet is dying.


Furthermore, many muslim nairalanders have pointed out that stoning is not the punishment for adultery. Unfortunately, there are some Islamic socieites where women are stoned.

Surely, don't you think that those societies should be reformed? Don't they need a more reasonable islam?


Peace. Salaam
Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by Ajibam: 11:45pm On May 19, 2015
So, you haven't change?
I thought you would have grown up and start posting rubbish all around
Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by Ajibam: 11:50pm On May 19, 2015
You can check this thread you once read blindly, if your eyes would be open this time to the need for reformation,
You and empiree
https://www.nairaland.com/1966499/cant-reform-islam-without-reforming
Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by truthman2012(m): 8:26am On May 20, 2015
malvisguy212:
nice one, muhammed was demon possessed, he did not show to much emphasis on the pagan, but the christian and the Jews, he caused them, how can anyone believe muhammed? In some hadith he caused the christians but in the quran Allah promise the christians and Jew paradise,who are we to trust? Allah or muhammed?
Muhammed was demon possessed:

Al Hadis, Vol. 4, p. 359, Ayesha
reported that Haresah-b-Hisham asked
the Apostle of Allah and said, "O
Apostle, how does revelation come to
you?" The Apostle of Allah responded,
"Sometimes it comes to me like the
ringing of a bell...

" The bells of hell? The association with devils is more clear in the following:
Al Hadis, Vol 4, p. 360, Obadah-b-
Swamet reported that when a
revelation came to the Prophet, he
used to become greatly disturbed, and
his face became changed. And in a
narration, he would nod his head, and
his companions nodded theirs..."

Attested by Muslim. This has all the
marks of a trance or demon possession
complete with facial distortion.this is strange to the biblical truth, how can revelation comes to you as a bell? Here what the bible say on how revelation are sent;

2 Peter1:21, For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

There is no nonsense of bells ringing, which in our day is associated with witchcraft ceremony and demon possession. There are no bells in heaven. The shaking of the head, or palsy, is characteristic of devil possession as in the Bible, Matthew 4:24, And his (Jesus') fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and
those which were possessed with
devils...

Good exposition.

It is unfortunate that muslims don't see islam as satanic. Unless God have mercy on them and repent, satan will laugh at them in hell.

2 Likes

Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by Nobody: 3:23pm On May 20, 2015
AllNaijaBlogger:
@ Empiree and Lanrexlan,

Everything needs a reformation.

Change is the only thing that is constant. Christianity has come to adapt environmentalism after modern science has shown us that our planet is dying.


Furthermore, many muslim nairalanders have pointed out that stoning is not the punishment for adultery. Unfortunately, there are some Islamic socieites where women are stoned.

Surely, don't you think that those societies should be reformed? Don't they need a more reasonable islam?


Peace. Salaam

Stoning is not only for women, do not play on emotions. And Islam is perfect. It is Muslims that need to reform their ignorance and lack of piety.

You should also understand that we Muslim NLers (as per your statement on stoning for adultery, and practically every aspect of fiqh, hadith and Shari'a also), do not have the necessary training or knowledge to extract rulings or verify narrations. We are all commenting here ignorantly; so to speak. We are essentially a bunch of bus conductors discussing how to introduce new trends to neurosurgery. Helps to pass the time, may Allah guide us.
Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by Emusan(m): 5:09pm On May 20, 2015
lanrexlan:
[size=14pt]You can only reform man made ideas, not the creator's path in which he has chosen for mankind.[/size] Allah says in So set you„your face towards the religion of pure Islamic Monotheism Hanifa (worship none but Allah Alone) Allah's Fitrah (i.e. Allah's Islamic Monotheism), with which He has created mankind. No change let there be in Khalq-illah (i.e. the Religion of Allah Islamic Monotheism), that is the straight religion, but most of men know not.

At bold what do you even know about Christian reformation?

Do you think people were bombing or beheading people for not accepting Christianity or some man-made doctrine as you rightly said that was reformed?

So all this killing must continue in Islam since it was Allah wrote them.

2 Likes

Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by Nobody: 5:36pm On May 20, 2015
Emusan:


At bold what do you even know about Christian reformation?

Do you think people were bombing or beheading people for not accepting Christianity or some man-made doctrine as you rightly said that was reformed?

So all this killing must continue in Islam since it was Allah wrote them.

The true knowledge of Islam must be re-instated in order to STOP these killings.
Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by AllNaijaBlogger(m): 5:57pm On May 20, 2015
Abuamam:


Stoning is not only for women, do not play on emotions. And Islam is perfect. It is Muslims that need to reform their ignorance and lack of piety.

You should also understand that we Muslim NLers (as per your statement on stoning for adultery, and practically every aspect of fiqh, hadith and Shari'a also), do not have the necessary training or knowledge to extract rulings or verify narrations. We are all commenting here ignorantly; so to speak. We are essentially a bunch of bus conductors discussing how to introduce new trends to neurosurgery. Helps to pass the time, may Allah guide us.


Okay. I am not here to play on emotions but to give my own christian/non-muslim opinion and have a good discussion.


Now, there is a thread where many of your muslim brothers stated that stoning is not the punishment for adultery. However, there are muslim countries or societies that have stoning as the punishment. So I want to know who is right between these two sets of people and why you dont feel that there should be a reformation which will clear up the doctrine on stoning.

You also highlighted something that confuses me about islam. Please, educate me- How is it that I see many nairaland muslims like yourself, who claim to have read the hadith and Quran but still feel the need to see yourselves as laymen who need clarification from imams/clerics?

You call yourself a bus conductor trying to engage in Neurosugery. Is the Quran that difficult to understand? Please, explain to me. I do not know much about islam.
Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by Nobody: 7:31pm On May 20, 2015
AllNaijaBlogger:



Okay. I am not here to play on emotions but to give my own christian/non-muslim opinion and have a good discussion.


Now, there is a thread where many of your muslim brothers stated that stoning is not the punishment for adultery. However, there are muslim countries or societies that have stoning as the punishment. So I want to know who is right between these two sets of people and why you dont feel that there should be a reformation which will clear up the doctrine on stoning.

You also highlighted something that confuses me about islam. Please, educate me- How is it that I see many nairaland muslims like yourself, who claim to have read the hadith and Quran but still feel the need to see yourselves as laymen who need clarification from imams/clerics?

You call yourself a bus conductor trying to engage in Neurosugery. Is the Quran that difficult to understand? Please, explain to me. I do not know much about islam.

If I give you my opinion, it becomes my words; and others of my opinion; against their opinion. So you will not be any the wiser. However, you should realise that these issues did not result in controversy in the days before the internet, when every Muslim with a translated copy of Juz' Amma and summarized Riyad us saliheen, imagines himself to be a mujtahid, capable of issuing fatawa. Many Muslims mostly western converts also felt the need to 'prove' to non-Muslims that Islam was 'nice', so they decided to find ways to discard topics that non-Muslims used to deride Muslims with. Issues like stoning for adultery, age of Aisha when she got married, denial of the battles fought by the prophet (saw), projecting Islam as a 'religion of peace'...etc.

The ruling on stoning for adultery, as with all the laws in the Shari'a, were set for mankind by an Omniscient God, who we believe is our Creator. Since He created us, obviously, He knows what is best for us. Therefore we cannot hope to 'reform' any law set by an Omniscient God, in order to institute one set by imperfect, mentally deficient (comparatively) men; who are obviously error prone. You see the law as harsh perhaps, because you do not study all its conditions, requirements and implementation procedures, as well as the fallout of its neglect. Some aspects of the Shari'a may be harsh on the individual, from the worldly point of view, but necessary for the good of society, and Islam is all about protecting the greater good of society.

Islam is a comprehensive system of life, everything is included therein, including civil and criminal law, society and manners, acts of worship, system of government, system of trade and rules of economics. Added to these are studies of the fundamentals of Islamic tenets, Quran history and Grammatical interpretation, as well as science of recitation, science of hadith; narrators and interpretation, the science of application of these sources to the extraction of laws and doctrine... etc. A book on zakat alone can be up to a couple of hundred pages. Needless to say, these need intensive study and comprehensive knowledge before one can present an opinion on any specific topic. The scholars spend a lifetime,and there are various degrees of specialisation...comparable to the study of neurosurgery.
So when we say we read the Quran or hadith, we are barely scratching the surface of knowledge. We usually mean that we browsed a hadith on the internet and found out what a few of our favorite scholars said about it. We also read the Quran, but rarely study it, even those of us who speak Arabic sufficiently. Ultimately we are all learners, but where is this compared to someone who spends decades on such study? Ostensibly, we tend to form our shallow uninformed opinions and deride the 'ignorant' scholars (who do not ever have time for NL), who do not agree with OUR opinions. Hope you get the picture.

Point of correction; there are no 'clerics' in Islam, and imams are those who stay in front during the 5daily prayers; no more. We defer rather, to specialists in different fields, like a graduate of Shari'a law gives his opinion on aspects on inheritance for example...and so on. These scholars may not lead prayers in any mosque, so are not really imams in the true sense of the word, and many just write books or teach in universities; or just pass the knowledge to small groups of students.

We are still coming to grips with what to do, facing the duty of defending the numerous calumnies falsely attributed to Islam; on social media where our scholars and specialists are conspicuously absent. We will solve the problem ultimately; insha Allah, but for now, we tend to forget the advice of the prophet (saw)...

"a part of knowledge is to say 'I do not know', when you do not know something"

1 Like

Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by lanrexlan(m): 9:47pm On May 20, 2015
Abuamam:


Oh dont mind truthman2012. It's because you are not on this forum often. The 3 stooges (of which he is one), tend to grow on you eventually. You tend to learn to skim over their posts the way you do for ads... keeping an eye out for some new postulation (not too many of late. They are now recycling old topics).
Lol, I know quite well dear brother before I took a break. He is truthman2012 aka pointblank,cleanvessel, nextpart etc. An old man claiming to be a prophet lol.
I know him, I don't reply his posts anymore.Garbage always.

1 Like

Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by malvisguy212: 10:03pm On May 20, 2015
Abuamam:


The true knowledge of Islam must be re-instated in order to STOP these killings.
what is the true knowledge of Islam?can it be clearer than this?

Surah 2:191: And kill them wherever
you find them. (Shakir)
Surah 2: 193: And fight with them
until there is no persecution, and
religion should be only for Allah.
(Shakir)
Surah 3:151: We will cast terror into
the hearts of those who disbelieve ,
because they set up with Allah that
for which He has sent down no
authority and their abode is the fire,
and evil is the abode of the unjust.
(Shakir)
Surah 7:4: How many a township
have We destroyed! As a raid by
night, or while they slept at noon,
Our terror came unto them .
(Pickthall)
Surah 8:12: When your Lord revealed
to the angels: I am with you,
therefore make firm those who
believe. I will cast terror into the
hearts of those who disbelieve.
Therefore strike off their heads and
strike off every fingertip of them .
(Shakir)
Surah 8:60: Against them make
ready your strength to the utmost
of your power, including steeds of
war, to strike terror into the hearts
of the enemies , of Allah and your
enemies. (Yusuf Ali)
Surah 8:65: O Prophet! Rouse the
Believers to the fight . If there are
twenty amongst you, patient and
persevering, they will vanquish two
hundred: if a hundred, they will
vanquish a thousand of the
Unbelievers: for these are a people
without understanding. (Yusuf Ali)
Surah 9:5: So when the sacred
months have passed away, then slay
the idolaters wherever you find
them , and take them captives and
besiege them and lie in wait for them
in every ambush. (Shakir)
Surah 9:14: Fight them, Allah will
punish them by your hands and
bring them to disgrace , and assist
you against them and heal the hearts
of a believing people.” (Shakir)
Surah 9:73: O Prophet! Strive hard
against the unbelievers and the
Hypocrites, and be firm against them.
Their abode is Hell, – an evil refuge
indeed. (Yusuf Ali)
Surah 9:111: Lo! Allah hath bought
from the believers their lives and
their wealth because the Garden will
be theirs they shall fight in the way
of Allah and shall slay and be slain.
(Pickthall)
Surah 9:123: O you who believe!
Fight those of the unbelievers who
are near to you and let them find in
you hardness . (Shakir)
Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by lanrexlan(m): 10:11pm On May 20, 2015
Emusan:


At bold what do you even know about Christian reformation?
Much than you can ever think.

Do you think people were bombing or beheading people for not accepting Christianity or some man-made doctrine as you rightly said that was reformed?
Do you know how many Muslims were killed in Spain by crusaders for not accepting Christianity?

So all this killing must continue in Islam since it was Allah wrote them.
It is the people that needs reformation and not Islam.People need to get enlightened about what the scriptures say and not blind following what their leaders told them without verifying it.

You don't change Islam to fit you, you can yourself to fit into Islam.
Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by malvisguy212: 10:15pm On May 20, 2015
lanrexlan:

It is the people that needs reformation and not Islam.People need to get enlightened about what the scriptures say and not blind following what their leaders told them without verifying it.

You don't change Islam to fit you, you can yourself to fit into Islam.
malvisguy212:
what is the true knowledge of Islam?can it be clearer than this?
Surah 2:191: And kill them wherever
you find them. (Shakir)
Surah 2: 193: And fight with them
until there is no persecution, and
religion should be only for Allah.
(Shakir)
Surah 3:151: We will cast terror into
the hearts of those who disbelieve ,
because they set up with Allah that
for which He has sent down no
authority and their abode is the fire,
and evil is the abode of the unjust.
(Shakir)
Surah 7:4: How many a township
have We destroyed! As a raid by
night, or while they slept at noon,
Our terror came unto them .
(Pickthall)
Surah 8:12: When your Lord revealed
to the angels: I am with you,
therefore make firm those who
believe. I will cast terror into the
hearts of those who disbelieve.
Therefore strike off their heads and
strike off every fingertip of them .
(Shakir)
Surah 8:60: Against them make
ready your strength to the utmost
of your power, including steeds of
war, to strike terror into the hearts
of the enemies , of Allah and your
enemies. (Yusuf Ali)
Surah 8:65: O Prophet! Rouse the
Believers to the fight . If there are
twenty amongst you, patient and
persevering, they will vanquish two
hundred: if a hundred, they will
vanquish a thousand of the
Unbelievers: for these are a people
without understanding. (Yusuf Ali)
Surah 9:5: So when the sacred
months have passed away, then slay
the idolaters wherever you find
them , and take them captives and
besiege them and lie in wait for them
in every ambush. (Shakir)
Surah 9:14: Fight them, Allah will
punish them by your hands and
bring them to disgrace , and assist
you against them and heal the hearts
of a believing people.” (Shakir)
Surah 9:73: O Prophet! Strive hard
against the unbelievers and the
Hypocrites, and be firm against them.
Their abode is Hell, – an evil refuge
indeed. (Yusuf Ali)
Surah 9:111: Lo! Allah hath bought
from the believers their lives and
their wealth because the Garden will
be theirs they shall fight in the way
of Allah and shall slay and be slain.
(Pickthall)
Surah 9:123: O you who believe!
Fight those of the unbelievers who
are near to you and let them find in
you hardness . (Shakir)
lanrexlan:

It is the people that needs reformation and not Islam.People need to get enlightened about what the scriptures say and not blind following what their leaders told them without verifying it.

You don't change Islam to fit you, you can yourself to fit into Islam.
Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by malvisguy212: 10:21pm On May 20, 2015
lanrexlan:
Much than you can ever think.

Do you know how many Muslims were killed in Spain by crusaders for not accepting Christianity?

.
the crusader has don there killing and a true christian can condemned it, but there is NO place Jesus command us to kill in other to win convert. But the quranic verses I gave here, we read how Allah command his slaves to fight and win convert, what you accused the crusader of doing, Allah has don even worse.
Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by Empiree: 12:13am On May 21, 2015
author=AllNaijaBlogger post=33905174]@ Emp.iree and Lan.rexlan,

Everything needs a reformation.
Yea, and yourself, too. You need to reform yourself by returning to teachings of Jesus. Watch this. Are your christian brothers here not reformed enough?

The LAWS of the BIBLE WILL STOP BLACK AND HISPANIC VIOLENCE - ISUPK HEBREW ISRAELITES

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak2WlWYHcqM

Change is the only thing that is constant. Christianity has come to adapt environmentalism after modern science has shown us that our planet is dying.
Trust me, @underlined is grin grin grin. Just depends how you define everything you said up there. I have to agree with you that Christianity has adopted "environmentalism". But do you have any idea implication of this?. I believe you are aware of environmental pollution, destruction of environmental or ozone layer through chlorofluorocarbons, carbon tetrachloride, methyl bromide, methyl chloroform, and halons by the very same people who have adapted environmentalism and modern science called Christians as you called them.

Just few weeks ago, there was air pollution in the UK causing breathing problem, radiation and exposure to cancer risk to mention a few. And you seem to see Islam and Muslims belligerent, anti-progressive. But you failed to question the so called christian environmentalists and modern scientists (Christians as you called them) who dumped nuclear waste and large containers/barrels of refuse from Europe off the coast of Somalia that got many Somalis sick. They used Africa (Somalia especially as garbage bin). This was the reason behind pirates back in 2009, remember?. Similar they did in Gaza. I ask you, is there any justice in that in the name of reforming your religion?.

Obviously, you have proved here again that Christians today aren't following Jesus' teachings. You people digressed already.


Furthermore, many muslim nairalanders have pointed out that stoning is not the punishment for adultery.
How about flogging, are you comfortable with that as well or we need to reform that as well? "Stoning to death" adulterers is in your Bible and upheld/fulfilled by Jesus.

Unfortunately, there are some Islamic socieites where women are stoned.
This was answered^^

Surely, don't you think that those societies should be reformed? Don't they need a more reasonable islam?
When muslims speak of reformation, it's definitely not Islam itself. Rather our own freaking selves. But from non-Muslims definition of 'reform', is crooked and devoid of fundamentals of Islam. Take 'nollyhood' for instance, it's despicable and void of everything Jesus stood for.


Peace. Salaam
walaikum salaam

2 Likes

Re: Why Islam Doesn't Need Reformation Like Christianity by Emusan(m): 10:36am On May 21, 2015
Abuamam:
The true knowledge of Islam [SIZE=14PT]must be re-instated[/size] in order to STOP these killings.

So people never have this true knowledge of Islam since over 1000 years of Islam existence?

Are you telling me that even the Arabs where Islam itself originated from don't have this true knowledge?

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